Batteries
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You are currently reading a thread in /g/ - Technology
You are currently reading a thread in /g/ - Technology
Let's talk batteries.
Are 18650's the pinnacle of battery design? Tesla's have a whole bed of them to power the car. They're 3.7V with mAh ranging from 2000 to 4000. They are actually usable and mass produced, not vaporwave like the other super batteries that never exited the research lab.
Since a ton of tech relies on batteries nowadays, what is the best?
>>52114812
>not vaporwave
Lel
18650 is just a form factor, like AA, AAA, C cell, or D cell. The capacity and other characteristics of the battery depend entirely on its chemistry.
>>52114871
Larger batteries have better capacity though, not just because they are bigger but they also weigh less per Wh etc since more of the battery is battery and less is steel casing.
wow tesla just relies on using a bunch of smaller batteries linked together. that's disappointing
>>52114900
I don't really believe this since using a bunch of 18650s instead of bigger lipo cells would weigh a lot more.
>>52114900
i've seen laptop batteries that, once opened / taken apart, were basically AA-sized stuck together with tape or plastic wrapping and wired up together.
apparently that sorta thing is common, i have no idea why it makes any sense, you'd think it'd be wasteful as fuck space-wise.
>>52114930
Ok apparently they do have 18650s, they went this route to reduce costs and for safety reasons since a single 18650 catching fire vs a single giant cell catching fire is much less risky.
>>52114974
>i've seen laptop batteries that, once opened / taken apart, were basically AA-sized stuck together with tape or plastic wrapping and wired up together.
Stop buying no-name laptop batteries from shady ebay stores.
>>52114930
Doesn't matter what you believe, its a fact.
Tesla's battery packs are just housings for Panasonic 18650s in a cooling liquid.
>10,000 mAh
Is this real?
>>52115183
It's gonna explode brah
>>52115183
Seems legit
>>52115183
>even styled like a chinese firecracker
>>52115183
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZtxSpIqT4
>6000 mAh battery
>real mAh is about 1000 mAh
>>52114812
>4000mAh
Source?
China doesn't count, I've seen theirs go up to 6000mAh.
>>52114974
Last time I opened up a laptop battery it was a bunch of red batteries about the size of m80's linked together in series. It started smoking and giving off these fumes and got really hot, so I put it in a bag and discretely tossed it in the dumpster.
>>52114974
Name brand 9V batteries are normally filled with either AAA or AAAA batteries, can't remember which. And those tiny tiny batteries that are hearing aid battery diameter but like mini AAs (What? 12V) are filled with button cells as well
>>52115030
here's an x-ray of a thinkpad, you fucking autistic retard loser faggot.
>>52115427
And? That's a name brand commercially made battery pack with what I'm guessing are 18650 cells spot welded together
>>52115183
Nope, these ratings on the wrap are rampant among batteries. And since 18650s are used so much in vaping and they fuck with running ohms so low that they pull 20+ amps from batteries. So some guy started doing in depth testing of most 18650s vapers use to see real ratings.
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/list-of-battery-tests.7436/
>Are 18650's the pinnacle of battery design?
Maybe the pinnacle when it comes to current design.
These batteries are everywhere, from your prius to your cordless drill.
I'm kind of suprised they havent supplanted AAs yet
>>52114900
That's how it's always done because that' just how chemistry fucking works. For example, if you want 12 v, you need to stack cells, no other way to get that potential difference otherwise. If you want to insulate each cell a lot or not, that's entirely depending on what's cheaper and not much else.
>>52114900
For safety concerns
>>52115449
even your beloved chinkpad batteries are composed of a bunch of round batteries taped / glued / connected together. stop trying to backpedal out of your wrongness. you got owned, now shut up.
>>52115487
The lipo form factor for AA is the 14500 battery
>>52115449
aren't all/the majority of laptop batteries that aren't flat/specialty design made up of 18650's ?
its really no secret or so I thought..
>>52115585
I'm not backpedaling, that's my fist post on the subject. Spot welding battery cells together is a common way to manufacture battery packs
>>52115427
>you fucking autistic retard loser faggot.
>going up the wall because of a non-issue
You're either not legal yet to browse this site or are actually autistic yourself.
>>52115427
>thinking those are AAs
Are you literally blind?
Those are 18650s.
>>52115808
the only thing going up the wall is your mom's forehead as i bang her from behind, you shitlord.
>>52115847
>underage faggot confirmed
>>52114867
>>52114974
It might be a waste of space, but it's also much cheaper and li-ions have a higher energy density than li-po batteries iirc, so that makes up for it.
I'd love to take apart my laptop battery and replace the cells with those Panasonic 3400mah ones.
>>52115183
No.
Do yourself a favor and buy real batteries like Sony,
>>52115858
>i know that reference!
>gets it wrong
DUDE VAPE LMAO
>ITT a bunch of kids find out what 18650 batteries are
Panasonic best brand.
>>52115546
This many uneducated fucks here don't know that cells depending on type have a fixed voltage. You need to connect them in series to get your desired voltage.
>>52114871
18650 is the form factor yes, but they are also measurements
just like 14450 etc
it's 18mm diameter
and 65 in length
26650 are 26mm in diameter
and 65mm in length
>>52115183
No, the best two 18650s are 3500mAh. Anything more than that is fake.
LG and Panasonic have the best high capacity models. Sony are quite safe but a little less capacity.
this is infact actually the actual biggest snake oil in total existence ever
I found a old laptop battery that didn't work this week, I opened it up to find 6 Samsung 2200mAh 18650's.
They were low on power 1.5v each, I charged them up with my RC charger and they put out about 1200mAh @ 2A stopping at 3V.
I'm going to make a 3S and use it for my Bluetooth speaker, fells good senpai.
I also have a old thinkpad extended battery that died (+400 cycles), so ill be doing the same to that soon.
18650 is a battery form factor. There exist 18650 batteries that have not "exited the research lab." Picture related
>>52115460
Well fuck. Most all the vapers I've met are fucking retardeds. This guy may make me change my mind about vapers.
Damn.
>>52118264
Those are dead dumbfuck. They're supposed to be at 4.2V when fully charged and are not to be discharged below around 3.2-3.0V.
>>52114974
Those where all 18650's, friend.
back again?
>>52118298
Vapers aren't that bad of a bunch. It's just that the most visible ones are the douches. Most of us are discrete about it.
>>52114900
tesla is probably not what you think it is. For their first space x rocket they also just stacked together a bunch of 30 year old engines.
tesla: take what is available on the market, throw it together, receive halo. Elon Musk is a businessman, he cares about making money first.
>>52114900
Literally every electric vehicle does that you dumb fucking fuck
these new LG HG2 are pretty good
but there's always the tradeoff between high amperes and capacity, depends on what you want OP
Discharge: 2A stop at 3V
Cell Time mAh
1 40:37 1349
2 40:39 1350
3 34:26 1143
4 38:21 1274
5 40:22 1341
6 40:50 1357
they still work lol ;)
I had to use the ni-mh charger mode for about 3min to get them up to the voltage needed for the li-io mode. Above is the discharge capacity for all six.
>>52118310
yup
TOOK EM LONG ENOUGH
>>52118398
LG chem makes the cheapest battery per watt-hour on the market, fact. And they are quite good.
>>52118315
Same with stoners. Ever thought of that?
>>52118483
Well I do partake every once in a while so yeah I'm aware of it. But I think it applies to pretty much any niche. Comic books, vaping, drugs, tech, you name it, the people in each one who define how the general public see it are the douches.
It's all about surface area, the more cells you have the more surface area.
>>52118483
The stoners I know fall into three camps: teenagers, losers who wish they were still teenagers, and high paid IT and pharma industry workers.
>>52118404
which program is that?
Thanks
>>52118877notepad.exe, I used my rc charger is discharge mode and wrote down the results.
my question is why are AA batteries only 1/2 to 1/3 as powerful as 18650 batteries? Wouldn't it make sense to have an AA battery be just as powerful, since they take up the same space? Lots of products rely on AA after all.
>>52114812
>Tesla's have a whole bed of them
Source? I can't believe it's be that simple.
>>52120107
>same space
Not quite, I believe that AA are 14500s, so 14mm diameter and 50mm length. 18650 are bigger, so they have larger capacity and it is easier to use different battery chemistries in them which allows them to have higher voltages and maximum continuous current ratings.
>>52120107
One is lithium, the other is alkaline. Different battery chemistries can pack different amounts of power into the same space.
>>52115309
Panasonic manufactures 3450mAh cells.
>>52114812
>>52115339
>>52118303
Apostrophes indicate possession or contractions, not plurality. Also loads of caveman speak in this thread, what the hell. Like this shit >>52120384 and >>52118303 we have now sunk to "how is babby formed" levels, let the bombs drop.
>>52114900
That's how large format batteries are made. You and several other cretins in this thread appear to believe batteries are always single huge masses tailored to whatever size and voltage is needed. The chemistry involved makes that impossible.
A lithium battery for instance can only ever be around 3.7 volts with minor variation by type (li-ion, lipo, li-polymer, etc.) so to get larger voltages you must string them together in series, then to increase capacity you connect those clusters together in parallel.
>>52114974
They aren't AA sized, 18650s are larger. It's done that way for the reasons spelled out above.
>>52115183
No, 18650s do not get higher capacity than 3500mah at the moment.
>>52115487
>I'm kind of suprised they havent supplanted AAs yet
You can go out and buy appliances that use 18650s, they're just not as common. I have a flashlight and headlamp that are powered by 18650s for example.
>>52114871
>>52114889
>>52115039
>>52115837
>>52116596
>>52116651
>>52117702
>>52118299
>>52118357
>>52118424
>>52121200
>>52116558
These are the non-retards in this thread, I appreciate you guys
>>52121200
>Not quite, I believe that AA are 14500s, so 14mm diameter and 50mm length
Right, but AAs are less than half the nominal voltage.
>>52122426
>That's how large format batteries are made. You and several other cretins in this thread appear to believe batteries are always single huge masses tailored to whatever size and voltage is needed. The chemistry involved makes that impossible.
Different anon here. Wanted to add to that what I was taught as a child: a cell is one indivisible unit, a battery is made of two or more cells, but has come to mean one or more cells: a D cell battery is just a single cell, but a 12V battery for your garage door opener is made is multiple coin-cells.
>>52116558
Yes, they are the top tier at the moment.
These are mine.
>>52123245
Multiple cells, yes. But what do you mean by "coin cells"?
>>52123422
They make heated jackets that will run off these now. Well, it runs off a usb power bank and you can get power banks that let you put your own cells in.
>anything but Duracell
>>52114900
Uh... So do laptops. Crack open a laptop battery and it's literally a bunch of 18650 cells soldered together. Pic related, it's a box of cracked open laptop batteries
>>52123593
You came to the wrong neighborhood
>>52122426
Having used nearly every brand of 18650 for lasers and flashlights (fuck vape children. They just caused an influx of shit cells that give about 20% of the advertised capacity, and all of the remaining good VTCs to be gone.) I can say I've never actually personally seen a Li-Ion 18650 over 3200mAh. The wrap may say 3500 (or thanks to vape faggots, 5000mAh) but I have yet to personally see a cell come in over 3200.
And I swear to fuck if I see one more faggot say they're 4.2v I'm going to smack the shit out of them. YES it will read 4.2v fresh off the charger, but after 5 minutes of use it'll drop fast to 3.7v and hold there for a while until slowly decreasing to 3.2v where, unless you want to ruin the battery, you fucking stop using it. (Provided that the device you're using it in doesn't cut off at 3.3/3.4v)
>>52116558
I, personally, prefer the Samsung 25R. I've had less instances of them coming in at lower capacity than the Panasonic batteries.
If you want to gamble, you can buy Efest and hope that it's a re-wrapped VTC4, but I don't trust them AT ALL with the 40A batteries they're selling being only safe at 10A or lower. I've seen too many vent lately in some really tricked out green lasers, ruining really expensive lasers.
>>52123802
This is accurate info, but the Panasonic NCR 18650b actually is 3400mah. It may test very slightly under that but it's damn close. They supposedly make a 3500mah cell now, but I've never seen one.
>>52123554
Got one of those for $9. Well, sort of. The cell was soldered in, so I took some copper from inside coax cable, tossed it in the crucible of my backyard foundry, filtered out the impurities, and poured it into a mould to make battery contact plates. (I could've swiped plates off something else but I was refining some copper for ingots for later projects anyway) so now I can either charge by USB, or I can pop 4 batteries on my i4 and just hot swap them anytime I need to recharge cameras, phones, etc.
>>52123999
Sweet. Venture heat makes an off the shelf version though. They used to have a removable heat controller that was a common point of failure, but all their new jackets have it built in and it seems to have solved that issue.
I've got one of their vests that runs off their proprietary battery pack (really just two 18650s in series, have replaced the cells myself twice over the years) and when the pack is new, it gives you maybe 3 hours of heat.
With a 6 cell power bank I'd instead be able to run it for 9 hours per charge, on the highest setting. That's the kind of endurance where I stop feeling like heated clothing is a frivolous gimmick.
I wear the vest under a jacket lined with mylar to conserve heat. I've got Venture's heated gloves too. They don't make pants yet, just a "base layer" that looks like tights. I haven't really felt the need.
I had Columbia's bugathermo electric heated boots, they were shit. Couldn't feel any added heat even on the highest level. Cells are built in, really embedded in there so you can't replace 'em. Live and learn.
>>52123982
Shit. I might have to give those a shot. They'd be great in a portable power pack I'm building. Right now I've got a bunch of Samsung 2600mAh married batteries in parallel, but I could get a lot high capacity with Panasonic 3400s if they're actually closer to 3400 than 3200.
They might be a little overkill since the majority of what I'll be charging on it will be mobile devices over a 2.1A quick charge cable, but 20,400mAh in a box that fits in my backpack without taking up hardly any space will be nice to have. I could charge my phone fully almost 7 times on one charge of the power pack. Or, when camping, leave the phone plugged in to it with WiFi hotspot turned on to keep the kids entertained with Netflix if they don't want to learn how to start fires with sticks or build natural shelters and weave a para cord hammock with their old man :(
>>52124207
Search Amazon for "6x 18650 powerbank". Those are power banks you can put your own cells in, as easy as popping AAs into a TV remote.
>>52122426
I was quoting OP you fucktruck, I know how apostrophes work.
DUDE DUDE DUUUUUUUDE
HOL UP
DUDE
VAPE
LMAO
>>52124527
In that case you're right, I am an entire truck made out of fucks. My bad
>>52123802
Vapefag here.
>And I swear to fuck if I see one more faggot say they're 4.2v I'm going to smack the shit out of them. YES it will read 4.2v fresh off the charger, but after 5 minutes of use it'll drop fast to 3.7v and hold there for a while until slowly decreasing to 3.2v
This is not true, or rather, it's highly dependent on how fast you're draining them. For low current applications, the discharge curve is pretty rock steady. If you experience this kind of behavior out of your cells, you're probably stressing them or they are worn out or they are cheap.
3.7v nominal doesn't mean "uhh it's about a 3.7v battery", it means that's what the average voltage is going to be over the curve.
Also, some brands could be considered "safe" to take even below 3.2v. There's what's on the spec sheet, and there's what irl testing bears out. That dip you were talking about where the voltage drops off? That's what you're trying to avoid by not over discharging and that's where it happens.
>>52115858
the cringe
>>52125081
you dont check the voltage with an open circuit, you need to have some sort of load ;)
![Coin-cells[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/jOVTvIn.jpg "Coin-cells[1].jpg")
>>52123528
>what is google
I'm designing a biomedical research device. It's currently an arduino with a pressure sensor, RTC, and SD card. I'm trying to make it a small portable thing so I'm gonna pop the ATMega328 onto a breadboard and power it directly with a battery.
Any ideas what would give me the longest lifespan? I'm currently just planning on doing two AAs but I wasn't sure if you guys had any better ideas.
>>52125718
I meant why do you think 12v car batteries have coin cells inside. Those tend to be some metal air chemistry, usually zinc based. 12v batteries are lead acid, these days either marine gel or AGM.
>>52125773
Panasonic NCR18650B, 3500mah if you can find it. The 3400mah ones are more common.
>>52125773
Sony VTCs are pretty good but hard to come by
>>52125797
No one is disputing that, but your post seemed to imply you didn't know what the phrase "coin cell" referred to.
>>52125874
I generally try to find out what somebody's confused about by asking probing questions rather than risk making wrong assumptions about where the gaps in their knowledge are.
>>52125892
Fair point and I respect the effort but it might be hard to do that when you've been conversing with at least three different people.
>>52125817
So I'm noticing that these are nominal 3.7 V and at full charge start as high as 4.2 V, am I then going to need a 3.3 V voltage regulator or can I skip it?
>tfw you want to try to build an e-bike just for the shits and giggles using salvaged shit tons of 18650s but actually too afraid to start the project out of fear of fucking up somewhere and having either those batteries go up RIGHT INTO YOUR FACE or burning the bike or even the whole house in the process
Those shits have so much more energy stored compared to regular AAs I'm used to.
A shame you need so much power to drive semi-beefy electric motors.
>>52125773
go LiFePo4 instead of the normal LiCoO2
much safer and live longer
(but more expensive and have less energy density)
>>52126075
li-io is pretty safe if you dont short them out,
just build a battery and add balance leads and you should be fine.
>>52125797
These type of 12 v batteries. They're used in cameras, garage door remotes, etc. The car batteries are multiple cells as well, but certainly not button cells :)
>>52126075
It would be cool if somebody designed a honeycomb style battery case you could just slot 18650s into. And the BMS is built in, with little LEDs by each cell that turn red if one goes bad so you know which ones to replace and when.
The different ages/capacities of the cells could be compensated for by the BMS, just shut the whole pack down when the first cell is empty and stop charging when the first cell is full. This would mean the pack is only as strong as its weakest cell but that's the price you'd have to pay for a pack you can easily rebuild one cell at a time.
>>52126333
Oh ok.
>>52126075
Check out lunacycle. The guy who runs that site is a bro. He sells packs nearly at cost, then makes his profits on accessories. Uses premium grade cells too.
>>52123619
>>52123035
this.. and you'll fucking destroy anything you put 14500's in.
4.2volts full charge to 3.7
vs AA:
1.6volts full charge to 1.2? at very lowest.
>>52125999
yes, if your device requires 3.3volts..
all lithium-ion are very regulated cells and come as the same voltage, everywhere. If a battery is lithium-ion at higher volts it is because it bridges multiple smaller batteries internally
>>52123802
This.
I tested my 3400mah panasonics and they gave 3250 or 3200 each time.
I'm still happy with them cause that's a higher capacity than 2200mah.
Also what charger does /g/ use?
Pic related is my charger.
Can charge 2 batteries at 1A per battery or 500mA per battery, also does a discharge at 500mA and reports the battery capacity.
Which is great for me because I go through a lot of dead laptop batteries.
>>52126092
And only charge it to 70-80% each time, it also increases the life span quite much.
Arguably, weight and cost for some nominal capacity goes up again, so that may be too much in the end. It's something to do for off-grid household installations, though...
>>52122399
3450 != 4000
>>52127382
One of the best: Opus BT-C3100
http://lygte-info.dk/review/Review%20Charger%20Opus%20BT-C3100%20V2.1%20UK.html
Also a Miller ML-102 v9 (dirt cheap single battery charger / discharger). And I also have an older intellicharger i4 + a bc700 that I occasionally use when I had too many AAA batteries in use and need more charging slots.
>>52127426
lifepo4 have actually lower weight
energy density here refers to volume not mass
>>52123802
your voltage knowledge is fucking shit, are you retarded?
It won't sit at 3.7.. it'll slowly drain from 4.2 to 3.5 or whereever the specific battery discharges at. batteries do that, they slowly lose voltage. that's how you tell what percentage it's at.
dumbass...
they don't magically sit at x voltage and then magically go down.
a car battery will go from 14.x slowly to 10.x and then not start the car.
they don't jump around.
>>52123802
>>52127536
topkek this
the battery cuts itself off, not the device.. fucking idiots in this thread I swear.
>>52127536
>implying discharge voltage must be proportional to remaining charge
>>52127581
didn't imply anything other than it doesn't "sit at 3.7 for a long time then go down"
also the battery itself stops. not the device.
So is there anything that takes 18650s directly besides flashlights, laser pointers, and vapes?
>>52127653
Correct. They're IC protected if they aren't shit batteries. AKA all lithium batteries not made in china.
>>52127661
USB Battery packs. Most of the ones sold have them built in fixed, but a bunch make them removable.
>>52127661
I build slots for all my devices for 14500's and 18650's
I downvolt to 3volts and that's equal to two AA battery voltages. so everything (remotes etc) In my house that use AA, just use a single 14500 instead.
>>52127703
why?
that's just less efficient, and remotes and shit do fine with nimhs
>>52127688
Here's one.
The ML-102 v9 that I've mentioned a few posts earlier is perhaps the most popular example, though. Just one battery, cheap, lightweight, charges and discharges... applicable to a wide range of uses.
>>52127723
It's more efficient, actually. And the rechargeable lithiums cost less in the short run because all the crappy devices have crappy china batteries that I recharge once a year for 10 minutes & buy in 10 packs off ebay
>>52127761
how is it more efficient when you have to use a step down converter wasting power?
>>52127797
resistor. and costs are 1/5th of what they'd normally be.
>>52127703
So 14500s are AA sized cells? I think I'm going to pop two in my Gameboy and step it down to 6V
>>52127872
Kinda depends on what you're doing, but using a simple voltage divider to step down voltage is usually a bad idea unless you're going to have constant current.
>>52127872
>resistors don't waste power
and since when are li-ions cheaper than nimhs?
>>52127949
ebay, china, bulk
not sure if you haven't been reading. I get a 10pack of 18650's that i'm sure are shitty ones.. for less than a 4pack of AA's here.
regardless 1 of them lasts same time as the AA's do & thousands of recharges.
>>52128002
why not get nimh in bulk from china instead?
it's even cheaper
>>52127949
buy oem surplus laptop batteries for cheap
>>52128023
they're shit. can't recharge. more expensive.
>>52128104
im beginning to think you don't even know what nimh are...
These DIY threads are always a glimmer of hope in this sea of consumerism madness of everyday /g/
>>52128104
Wat? Chinese NiMh recharge just fine...
>>52128165
Not much DiY here, though. Just battery users.
>>52128165
There used to be a proper amount of DIY threads on /g/. Then people started figuring out that we actually have a DIY board.
Now those of us actually interested in this sort of thing lurk both boards.
>>52128315
eh /diy/ is pretty slow and shit,
there are better places, you just have to be willing to leave 4chan
>>52128117
he's right, they lose their recharge capability pretty fast
>>52128519
not an issue with shit like a remote that you charge maybe every 6 months
>>52128562
>>52127761
> that I recharge once a year for 10 minutes
& cheaper
fuck off do your own shit I'll do my own superior shit
>>52128736
your shit is all retarded though
no matter how often you scream wrong things
>>52128562
oh and if you use eneloops instead of regular nimh, it's probably a lot better - since I'm guessing most of the lost charge comes from self-discharge
>>52128769
k, but I spend less money & do less maintenance than you
so cry about it all you want.
>>52128891
how much money did you spend? it's probably more than 2$
and i never had to fiddle around with different battery formats either
>>52128925
I did it for fun
$8
for 12 remotes
>>52129025
how do you power 12 remotes with a ten pack?
>>52128373
for example?
im willing to
>>52129115
mikrocontroller.net
>>52129133
how did you know i can speak glorious hitlersprache?
>>52129165
because everyone worth talking to can
>>52129103
sprinkler & hot tub remote run off 1 battery
garage remote & car remote I built my own to match both frequencies
>>52129286
so it's actually ten remotes?
>>52116558
>tear apart NOS thinkpad battery 9 cell
>hit the jack pot as they're panasonic 3100maH
>>52115414
>Name brand 9V batteries are normally filled with either AAA or AAAA batteries
It's AAAA. It's basically the only way to buy those fucking things at a B&M store.
>>52129365
Sounds like 3 of those could be a good replacement for those RC LiPos with tiny capacity.
>>52129308
obviously not
Vape master race checking in
>>52115427
>>>52115030
>here's an x-ray of a thinkpad, you fucking autistic retard loser faggot.
>>52115427
Shoppef
>>52115339
"discreetly"
