I'm 19 years old and I'm starting to think about going into computer science.
Initially, I was going for mechanical engineering but after learning about how programming works I'm thinking of switching.
However, whatever field I go into I want to make it to the top of that field. Maybe I'm just a dreamer but I don't want to be some average grunt level employee.
Is 19 too old to make it to the top? I keep hearing about people who learn coding when they're like 12 years old. Can I compete with those guys?
Stick with mechanical engineering and take some programming electives.
I started my computer science bachelor's degree when I was 30.
>>51942094
>Can I compete with those guys?
yeah, because there wont be any jobs left by the time they're old enough to work
>>51942094
Depends on how much time you spend into it and how fast of a learner you are.
The kids who code at 12 are mostly full of shit. The "dream in code" kid being a prime example. Kid shitposts 5 star reviews to his iStore apps because they're so shit.
>>51942094
>Is 19 too old to make it to the top? I keep hearing about people who learn coding when they're like 12 years old. Can I compete with those guys?
They are shit kids who copy public code and follow YouTube tutorials.
>>51942094
Computer science is not exactly "coding". Code monkey work, software engineering and CS do interact a lot though.
I've seen plenty of engineers and academics in the field who basically couldn't code worth shit but were pretty accomplished anyways.
If you have the mind for understanding systems of complex logic, how state governed by said rules evolves, etc. maybe you can handle it.
>>51942094
Why can't you double major? Are you retarded? Get on my level pleb.
Well you won't be the best learning c++ that's for sure.
Keep doing mechanical engineering, you will still learn to code, but will get access to better jobs.
>>51942268
That would take too much time to graduate. Money doesn't grow on trees.
Are you kidding me? Plenty of us got into it in our late twenties.
"Is nineteen too late?"
Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense.
>>51942503
Also, the more important point is that computer science has as much to do with "coding" as astro physics does with telescopes.
>>51942482
>too much time and money
Do you even know what double major means?
>>51942539
Taking more classes means it will take more time to graduate. Staying in school longer costs more money.
How are you not understanding this?
>>51942570
Literally he means taking more classes at the SAME TIME. Not ideal.
>>51942609
Most schools have unit caps. There's a limit to how many classes you can take at once. It would still take more time.
>>51942704
In theory I guess it would. Depending on the major though many of the prerequisites can already have been taken making it much easier.
>>51942725
Mechanical Engineering and Computer Science and Engineering likely have no overlap at all in the 3rd and 4th years of the program. At my university, the engineering programs are completely divergent at that point, and only a handful count for more than one major. 3rd and 4th year engineering already has you near the unit cap anyway. I cannot see doing two unrelated engineering degrees in four years as feasible. Even if one were to go over the unit cap, it would be obscenely difficult with the rigor of upper level engineering coursework.
I suggest taking whatever CS electives you can for your major, or maybe minor, but I think that that double major guy was a bit unrealistic.
>Am I too old
>I am 19
Good God OP you have got to be kidding; I hope all replies have been saying how absurd this is as a question.
In case you can't figure it out: of fucking course you aren't to old. I can't believe this even has to be said.
>>51942094
Computer science has coding, but the main thing you have to be good at is math. You can catch up to the coders, but if you have no aptitude for math, then you'll never pass enough classes to get your degree
>>51942539
Yea, it means you'll need to grow some thick skin, as all the corporate rat race parttakers you'll be more than inevitably keep running into aplenty in your career will be wary of you seeing you as a dangerous competitor and a possible threat to their own careers, and will keep trying to stick the proverbial metal bar into your gears just for good measure.
>>51942094
Take all the energy you waste on second-guessing yourself and use it do literally anything and you will achieve your goals.
Most of the 12 year olds you see on the news (see: clockboy and dream in code kid) never amount to anything. There are some kids that legit grew up tinkering with computers, but not all of them. You'll be fine OP, you can do it.
>>51942094
Yep, you're just too old to learn. It's not because you're a lazy idiot at all.
>>51942094
>I keep hearing about people who learn coding when they're like 12 years old.
3rd year CS here, I've ran into quite a few of people who claimed they were coding since they were 12 and were proficient in 10 different languages before graduating High School.
Strangely, most of them ended up failing really basic stuff like converting binary to decimal and just "weren't good at math", as evident by there college precalc grades. A lot of them switched to IT or just dissapeared.
>>51942094
>Is 19 too old to make it to the top?
No, that's fucking stupid
>Can I compete with those guys?
Probably not, if you're making threads about "we is me, I want to be the best computer scientist ever" instead of programming then you probably won't enjoy it enough to ever get any good at it. You've got 10k hours to go and shitposting isn't putting any kind of dent in that
>>51942539
>Do you even know what double major means?
That you made a poor decision? I did a major and two minors and the minors were nearly free, cost me a lot of work for zero reward. You may think a second major isn't the same as a minor but you're wrong, your pay is decided by your better major and that's it. Better off getting started on a MS and a masters is pretty shitty all things considered.
>>51942094
You're not too old. I started late and I have surpassed all of the child prodigies at my uni now, even though I didnt code before starting my degree at age 22.
>>51942094
I started my CS bachelor's at 21. You're fine.
I'm starting my CS bachelor at 22 :^)
>>51942135
So what happened bro? Did u do it?
>>51942145
>Studies show that the demand for computer programmers will increase by 30% in 2020
Now think about how many of those 12 year old kids from the ADHD generation will actually become programmers, let alone good programmers.
>>51942094
Do it, OP. Don't ask for advice on this shit. Just do it. 4chan is the worst place to come for encouragement. If you want to do it, do it. It's never too late to learn a new skill. I'm 22 and I plan on getting a language under my belt by the end of next year. How? I dedicate myself to things and I learn very quickly. Concentrate on your own journey. If you're already thinking about some random 12 year olds learning how to code and letting thar deter you, you've already lost. Just fucking read a book and learn some shit.
>>51943291
This post's second paragraph is right on the money. Exhibiting anxiety about programming on threads is time wasted that could be used on learning.
And on that note, I'm off to smash my head against a screen as I attempt to learn about pointers. Toodles.
>>51944576
>I dedicate myself to things and I learn very quickly
ok, bud. you're all hopped up on sugar and caffeine and it feels good. we get it.
>>51944449
No, I realized CS was a meme degree and went to study math
>>51944603
>tfw I haven't ingested caffeine, cigarettes or alcohol in a year
>tfw I drink 8 pints of water a day and maintain the highest possible of cognitive function
>tfw I taught myself advanced music theory in 3 months
>tfw I taught myself JavaScript when I was 12
>tfw you'll never be on my level
Weep sweetly, faggot.
>>51944634
But CS is all about math , theory and laws. Excatly like math lel.
Anyway what math field do you specialize?
>>51944634
Is your last name Wenner?
>>51942219
That's true. It is connected with them not having any math ed.
>>51942094
The average age of entering uni/college is 20-21+ i most European countries.
But CS is getting rather competitive. Choose it as a minor and choose something else (Robotics, mechatronics, electrical engineering or mechanical engineering?) as your major.
You're not too old.
Go for it.
Embedded systems
E M B E D D E D S Y S T E M S
>>51944677
In theory, yes. At masters and PhD level CS is just a branch of math. However at undergrad, CS is a meme-tier degree to teach code monkeys how to write Java for <50k a year. People who want a good future take Math, as many programming electives as possible then a CS PhD/Masters - or go straight into the work force and take jobs from Javatards who went into CS to write muh games.
If you took CS and don't go to a literal god-tier school (Princeton, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Stanford or Caltech) you fucked up. The work force is diluted and the good jobs are taken by people who aren't fucking morons.
>>51942094
there is quite a lot wrong with your thinking:
Yes there are younger people than you getting into computers, but there are always younger one.
One of my students is 9 years old, Im teaching him programming with Scratch/Snap/Byob.
I bet there are also 5 years old programming, and maybe even 3 year olds.
Does not matter!
The best time to get into computers is today, alsways!
And most importantly: Computer Science is not a race where there are many runners but only one winner.
It is 100 races but only 50 runners.
Sure they might cluster on som hype races like big data and webapps right now, but many races are pretty much empty, as soon as you start your are almost guaranteed a victory.
Not to mention that there are also 50 year olds that started only a few years ago and are doing great.
>>51945760
>everyone is from USA and have to deal with shitty usa job market
>>51942094
statistically you won't make it to "the top" of any field, sorry.
also you are fucking 19 and asking if you are "too old"?!? the fuck is wrong with you? Are you retarded. Some of the best programmers in the world didn't even use a computer until in their early 20s. Honestly you are being an idiot asking such a question. You are still a fucking teenager and you are asking if you are "too old".
Jesus christ man. Just fucking do whatever you want.
>>51942094
>I'm 19
You're not too old to do anything except maybe become a top level professional athlete, or a famous child actor
>>51947090
this.
>>51947090
I want to own a Porschce before I'm 30 so I can drive it recklessly on a track and crash and die before I'm old.
Considering the models I'm looking at are $40k, what's the best path for me to take once I get a comp sci degree? Should I make a startup and ride the bubble in the hopes that it doesn't pop?
>>51947455
no. go into finance if you want to make a lot of money at a young age.
>>51943327
>mfw I graduated with double major/double minor and getting 100k+ offers and I haven't even graduated yet
keep trying for that meme degree script kiddies
>>51947090
thread
>>51942094
Just get a minor in it if you're interested and code as a hobby. You don't need a degree or too much material capital to make something out of it.
>>51942094
if you like programming, go for Coputer engineering... computer science is just a meme
Surprised this thread lasted through the night.
Alright, I'll stop being a bitch and start programming. Thanks guys.
>>51948152
>Coputer engineering
>Engineers are so illiterate that they can't even spell their own major right
Back to sucking dick with you
>>51946747
I'm not talking about being the next Bill Gates or anything like that.
I just want to get to a position where I have a chance to innovate and not just produce shitty iPhone apps or do basic web design.
CS here, if you ever want to get a job do CE or major in CS while taking CE electives.
There's a lot of java code monkeys out there who only want to make "apps" while there's not a lot of C developers out there who actually know how to program without a giant library that does everything for them.
>>51942094
in my experience all the neck beards who claim to have been "coding' since they were 12 are the ones who think they are too good for intro level programming classes and end up failing because their version of coding is absolute shit and cannot grasp basic algorithms and principles of programming.
>>51947455
these are life goals right there
>>51942094
>Am I too old to
>19
Ofcourse not.
>>51948432
if your CS degree only taught you java you went to a shit school. you dont need to be CE to be a C developer
>>51948469
if your CS degree taught you java at all you went to a shit school
>>51948469
Mine obviously didn't only teach us Java. It's just most kids are introduced to C in systems programming and never touch it afterwards because "hurr C hard, me lik ez language like java n python"
>>51947713
how did you graduated if you haven't even graduated yet?
>>51948772
This. That guy is obviously 12 years old.
>>51943734
>using the smiley with a carat nose
>>51948686
That's me, you mad bro? Why voluntarily subject yourself to a more complicated language like C?
>>51949085
>Why voluntarily subject yourself to a more complicated language like C?
Because there's a bigger demand for it since brainlets like you don't have the IQ to do it?
>>51945760
>Implying the vast majority of CS related jobs aren't at practical areas where math is mostly useless instead of research
So where do you work anon?
>>51942094
COMPUTER SCIENCE IS NOT A SKILL.
Computer science is not programming. It is a field of study. And just like math, or physics or any other STEM field of study, it usually takes people about 4 years of study (with no prior experience) to master the basics, and an entire career if you want to make a meaningful contribution to a small subfield. There is no such thing as being "top of the field" in computer science, that's far too broad of a statement.
You can possibly make the argument that programming is a skill. maybe. And there will be people better than you at it no matter how hard you try or how old you are. Arguably the best competition programmer in the world recently turned 21.
I recommend you stop comparing yourself to others and learn something if it interests you.
>>51942094
>Is 19 too old to make it to the top? I keep hearing about people who learn coding when they're like 12 years old. Can I compete with those guys?
I'm one of those and yes, you can compete. Our only advantage is extra experience that you'll have after a few years of working anyway.
>>51949199
>Implying the vast majority of CS related jobs aren't at practical areas where math is mostly useless instead of research
Code monkey Indian or college student who has never had a job spotted.
I use Linear Algebra and Discrete Math everyday at my job (working for a military contractor).
Math is indeed useful if your job isn't a useless code monkey tier webdev job for idiots.
>>51947713
Yeah, I got/get 100k offers too but they've never had anything to do with my minors. I don't make a cent more than someone with my same major but not the minors.
>>51944635
>uses the word faggot
you lost all credibility
I am 23 years old and have just barely begun the final 2 years of my CIS major (similar to MIS majors). It is essentially a Business degree with a focus in Information Systems.
The degree requires I learn JAVA, C++, but first of all I must take Visual Basic *which I am taking this spring semester.
Do I have a decent future ahead of me or did I fuck myself with my degree?
I didn't do CS because it's 1 year more of math, and I am 23 already! I need to just graduate.
>>51942094
Yeah, just don't bother. If you didn't get it at 11, you won't now.
>>51944635
*tip*
>>51945760
>mfw i went to a decent school and offers are 6 figures out of undergrad
but just keep repeating that CS is a meme-tier degree
>>51949618
did you happen to minor in anything?
are you going to grad school?
>if so any tips to get in?
>>51949573
If you play on the business angle then sure. Business majors make more money than CS majors, on average. I don't know what your program looks like the the analogous program at my school did a pretty poor job of producing competent programmers, it wouldn't do much to impress employees for technical positions
>>51949660
Check out the program here:
http://www.cpp.edu/~cba/computer-information-systems/curriculum/index.shtml
>>51949635
Take a MBA.
OP you're just a fucking moron.
I'm 18 and have only been learning for a year, this year I'll be going into my shitty state school's CS program so I can get muh piece of paper that says I'm smart. University CS is bullshit anyway unless you're going to be a brainiac MIT researcher; the only thing that matters is A. Connections and B. Contributions (to projects). I'd say most people who graduate with a CS degree can't program fucking FizzBuzz. That's why the "CS is a meme, muh Indian javascript" shit exists, because, for the majority, it's true. You're not going to get a job that isn't sucking your boss' toes and maintaining some shitty website if you think that just going to school is going to get you where you want to be.
Anyway, I don't even plan on becoming a corporate wageslave bitch, so this might not apply to you.
>19
>old
I just started college at 29. You're overthinking this shit.
>>51949733
I am cheering for you anon.
Got in IT at 23(no degree),FX App Analyst(50k) now
>>51945760
stop being a fucking shitlord. I went to a major state university with 30000 students and had a total graduating class of less than 30 students in CS at the graduation ceremony. i can check the website lists 57 for the combined dec + may graduating class. this shit isn't "watered down" you dumb retard.
>>51949725
>being this autistic yet having the mental capacity to use a keyboard
I'm stumped
>>51948411
you want to be some special snowflake basically.
if you want that then you need to stop wasting time posting this shit on the internet and fucking learn how to program
>>51949853
I don't want to be a special snowflake I just want to do work that's interesting and not just mundane code monkey crap.
>>51948411
What is management.
>>51949355
Linear algebra and discrete math are not advanced math retard. They are taught in regular CS courses and every programmer knows them.
He has a degree in math, I expect him to tell me he uses manifolds at least.
Anon I was 19 when I switched to comp sci and earn €100k+ now as a solutions architect for AWS. I know people in my field who made the switch at 30 or later. The stupidest thing you can do is not follow your passion
>>51950013
>math is mostly useless
>o-okay it's useful sometimes...but
Nice changing the goalpost, brainlet
>>51942094
>19yrs old
>too old for literally any career choice
Wtf is wrong with you Americans?
If you're not coding at 9, you really don't stand a chance desu desu.
>>51949635
minor in stats, graduating early with honors.
have plans for MBA in 5 years or so
>>51950303
>Mostly means completely
>Operating using math means you're "using math"
Okay bud. Just like people coding in js are doing computer science.
>>51944592
Nothing to stress over, pointers are a simple and powerful concept
>>51942094
>>51942094
19 y/o, Informatics here. That's Comp. Science + Applied Maths.
90% of my class have never touched a compiler and we're all making steady progress.
It's totally worth it, I mean. It all depends on your teacher.
Books are shit.
>>51944691
yes
>transferred to a university at 23 to study anthropology
>graduated a year and a half later, went to a university ranked in the top 5 for CS to get my PhD in CS
yeah OP 19 is too old. or too young. whatever superlative you're looking for. being 19 definitely stops you from doing whatever the fuck you want.
I started programming when I was 22 with no knowledge of it whatsoever. As long as you enjoy logic puzzles type shit, you'll be fine. If you don't like to think hard about problems, you'll probably be like one of these whiners in class like "I just want to learn <topic>, not do all this shit" well guess what, doing the hard shit is the entire point.
When it comes to thinking, age is mostly just a number. I started studying in the university when I turned 23. I know a 50 year old dude who is now a second year student, flying through master's level courses that most people struggle with, he had no previous university education. He could still become a lecturer and actually publish something worthwhile if he keeps it up.
This field is fucking huge, you have everything from quantum computers to stringology, neural networks to natural language processing, and compilers to nondeterministic automata. It's never too late to get in.
>>51949413
Your minors are shit then. I got an 60k+ offer just cause I had a math minor. Get good script kiddies.
>>51942094
>19 years
>too old
mate im 20 and still in high school
>>51942094
You're a fucking idiot and you won't make it to the top of anything if this is the kind of shit you post at 19 years old. "im 19 am i too old hyurpederp" fucking retarded
>>51951466
>60k
You realize that's shit, right? Also my minors are in math and philosophy.
>>51949819
>this shit isn't "watered down" you dumb retard.
Right, which is why you see so many people sticking with it into their 40s and beyond, right?
Oh, no, you don't. Because they get pushed out of the market, because way pay more for someone experienced when he's just going to take time of for "family" and knows the latest meme-library little better than the college kid?
Yeah, it's watered down as fuck. You can see it in the retarded escalation of interviewing techniques. None of them have anything to do with finding the most capable candidate for the job, they're all about generation rejections so they can pretend they're super selective. Also, cargo culting. They heard Google asks these questions, so we'll ask something that seems similar.
>>51942094
>Initially, I was going for mechanical engineering but after learning about how programming works I'm thinking of switching.
There is no reason to get a CS degree unless it's from a top university and you fully intend to be a research type.
Otherwise, get a real engineering degree. I would *always* hire an EE over a CS major, all things being equal.
If you can complete an actual engineering degree, then you're smarter and have more discipline than almost any CS major. You've proven you have the brains and grit to do just about anything in "software engineering". You can pick up the babby math (big-O, basic statistics) in a couple of weekends of studying.
>>51951605
how can there be so many people in their 40+'s if CS has only been a thing for a few years?
>>51949148
Show me the demand anon. Most jobs I've come across don't use C.
>>51951580
>entry level
>60k
>401k
>paid vacation/time-off
>Bad
>>51950795
quality satire
>>51942094
- Study EE
- Upgrade your programming skills by yourself
>???????
- Profit
>>51942122
>>51942094 This
>>51952105
Yeah m8, don't mean to be a jerk but that's significantly below average. I was making 105k in my first job out of college which of course came with paid vacation and pretty standard 401k matching and an equity plan. And that's only a little above average. If you're making 60k as a programmer at any level (assuming you know how to do your job) you're getting taken advantage of.
>>51953762
Silicon valley is not average you turd.
>>51953787
Aside from the fact that you're free to relocate and make almost double your salary but have apparently chosen not to, it's true, SV pays better than the mid west. Where do you live though? NYC, Chicago, and urban Texas all pay at least similarly to silicon valley, most urban centers can at least beat 60k for an entry position. In any case, even taking the national average 60k is just middle of the road, hardly a compelling argument for picking up a minor when CS majors basically can't step out their front doors without getting a job offer with a really minimal level of effort.
I don't actually regret my minors, they were fun and I learned a lot, but if you think a minor or a second major is going to make you a hot item then you're sorely mistaken.
>>51949543
>getting baited this hard
>>51944576
Eh I liked this.
>>51944592
Liked this too. Its good to be a little human though and enjoy in wasting time sins after a solid few weeks of dedication. I try to find small nitch projects in programming so that it feels like fun and not work. GL w/ your pointer edu.
>>51942135
Nice. I wish we could encourage more folks to do this. I would love to meet some people in person who started their education around this age and hear a few success stories. Only guy I know who has close to done this is lazy as fuck.
Seems about right. I picked up a few languages in two months time because they became relevant to my line of work. Do what you gotta do. In the end most of the time it is just for file manipulation.
>>51954335
Man I would love to go to SV. I have a lot of learning to do before I hit that level of programming but I am young too.
>>51954335
>>51953787
What do you guys do with anything over 35k?
I have insurance, bills, car, living, etc figured out and I cannot figure what I would need more than 35K for? Wouldn't the rest just go to savings and maybe after a down payment on a house- go towards something like a timeshare or just buying out an actual vacation home?
Extravagant retirement?
>>51956925
>I have a lot of learning to do before I hit that level of programming but I am young too.
SV is like pretty much anywhere else, 90% of people are shit and some fraction of those have potential to get better, the other 10% are good but generally undervalue themselves. It's not like everyone is a "rockstar" (what a horrible buzzword), we have shitty/novice programmers for miles. I think if you're part of the group that has hope of getting better then you'd be well served by surrounding yourself by people better than you (again, not that you have to come to SV to do that but there's a culture around it such as usergroups and just social norms that makes getting better easier).
It's like buying a house. Better to have the worst house on the best block than vice versa. If you're smart it's _so_ much better to be the dumbest person in the smartest crowd than better than a bunch of dumb peers.
>>51956925
>What do you guys do with anything over 35k?
I remember thinking this in school, but you always find a way to spend cash you have. Part of it is housing is really expensive in urban areas, you couldn't live on 35k in SF or NYC, my rent is almost 2k a month for a studio.
But it's true that you still end up with a good chunk of change left over. I put about half my disposable income into savings for a house (not that I particularly feel the need for a house but it seems like something you should plan for) and the rest I blow on stupid shit, probably a 3 way split between computers, alcohol/drugs, and DIY projects (simple stuff like a book case or whatever, gotta find some way to fill the time and it's a fun hobby). I should probably be saving more but I remember being poor and not being able to afford anything while in college so vividly I promised myself I'd take 3-5 years of minimal responsibility (I specifically looked for a job with flexible/short hours) and have some fun for a while before getting serious about whatever there is to get serious about.
>>51942514
this.
fuck if you like coding/programming, go for soft. engineering.
>>51945812
which ones are the empty races?
>>51942094
>Am I too old to go into computer science?
>mfw math major
>any job I want
>300k starting
You should study maths instead, OP.
>>51948432
I noticed this looking at the job market, there are an awful lot of people looking for C# offering 70-100k starting, also some niche stuff like knowing how to use unreal engine and those jobs were offering 200-300k
>>51959315
Not OP but I'm actually considering go into mathematics. However, in high school I only got up to pre-calculus. Is there any hope for me in a math major?
I know it's not only for prodigies but I feel like being 18 years old and still not knowing calculus is a big disadvantage for a math major.
>>51949677
>>51942094
Yes, you are too old, sorry.
>>51957933
Software engineering programs are either functionally indistinguishable from CS or watered down hand-holding for people who can't hack it at basic mathematics. Yes, the academic discipline of computer science is pretty distant from what you're going to do day-to-day as a code monkey but the reason for that is that professional programmers are largely willfully ignorant of the academy, to their tremendous detriment.
>>51959409
the "mathematicians make N-hundred-thousand starting" thing is just a shitty /g/ meme. Some mathemititions make good money but generally require at least an MS, on pure economics mathematics isn't a great career move. If you're interested in mathematics then you should go for it through.
>I feel like being 18 years old and still not knowing calculus is a big disadvantage for a math major.
Not really. You may have to take an additional semester or two depending on what your pre-req chart looks like but that's not a big deal. I started college without even trig and graduated with a math minor. All you have to do is a little catchup which isn't hard at all, it will just take a little time.
>am i too old
>19
No, you might be a fucking retard though.
Don't listen to theprintf("true prodigies start at %d age", arbitraryAdoolescentAge);meme. John Carmack was too poor to afford a computer growing up and didn't have one until his late teens. In fact, he was arrested as a kid for trying to steal the school's computers. Humans never stop learning. Think about it, every time you watch a new animu and learn the backstory and names of random, imaginary, Chinese grills you learn something, so why can't you apply that same ability to learn new animu characters to learning a language?
Just
Do
It
Ps. Take lots of stimulants. Lots of adderal and caffeine, but make sure to drink lots of water so as to not rot out your fucking teeth.
Ppsh. Learn C as your first language. It's like learning to drive on a stick shift, if you take the extra effort to learn it first then you'll be miles ahead of automatic trannie babbies and if you learn automatic first you'll likely never find the motivation to learn to drive stick.
>>51944635
you taught yourself advanced music theory, the better question is can you apply it? (Instrument, DAW, compositional or otherwise)
and the better question is will you find people who give a fuck?
