Im tired of people saying html5/css/js is not programming. Can we just stop this shit?
Html5 is an api. Js is a programming language and CSS is a stylesheet .
Wut
Correct. Web programming != real programming
>>51847128
If your language isn't turing complete then it isn't really a "programming language".
Go teach yourself C anon, you'll be better for it.
>>51847128
html5 and css aren't programming
LaTeX is also not programming
js is programming
>>51847128
Anon HTML is a markup language.
>>51847262
>>51847220
What I meant is that webdev's are always getting shitted on here.
>>51847128
> mfw people want to make games in HTML5
> mfw people are proudly presenting their games as made in HTML5
> mfw they are fucking made in Javascript and the only tag they use from HTML5 is the canvas tag
Don't have to be a programmer to learn webdev. Might as well be playing with building blocks if that is the only form of programming you plan on learning.
>>51847294
that's because webdev is babby tier shit
>>51847211
But anon, HTML with CSS *is* Turing complete.
>>51847294
But webdev isn't real programming. There are no data structures, no algorithms, nothing even remotely that resembles systems design or architecture.
It just utilizes existing, previously made architectures through the use of APIs. Just an interface.
It's not even done close to the metal.
>>51847294
It's okay anon, just because you're not an actual software developer doesn't mean what you do is completely useless
>>51847294
Good, webdevs are retarded
>>51847317
what is wrong with building a game in javascript? It helps you learn fundamentals. Did you never try to build a game in C,Java etc..?>>51847365
what about angular/node.js. These actually require you to be "programmer"
>>51847128
dumb frogposter
>>51847411
Just because you're never written your own data structures in js/webdev doesn't mean it's not done. You can make classes, objects, methods and whatnot in js and make your own data structures if you wanted to. Just because the language is so high-level all the most common data structures are premade unlike in C where you have to write every little tidbit of common shit yourself doesn't mean js isn't programming. Document.body.innerText = "abc"; is not programming, but it's not like it ends there. You can do pretty big and complicated shit worth being called programming in webdev.
>>51847435
>HipsterJS2015 frameworks require you to be a real programmer
my sides
I make some cool scripts in PHP for my wordpress site. But I never learned PHP and I mostly just used stolen code, educated guesses and if and else statements.
Am I a programmer now?
>>51847128
javascript is a programming, html 5 and css are not
Backend web development is NOT real programming.
>>51847386
>HTML and CSS are turing complete
After some googling, you are right on CSS, but not HTML.
Modeling structured data in a text file is not programming. Performing actual computations on said data is different however.
So you should still learn C.
javascript isnt a programming language, it's a weakly typed dyanmic scripting language you dumb fucks
>>51847496
better than frontend web development
>>51847496
It is if you do it in java or c#
>>51847522
>you are right on CSS, but not HTML.
You need both for it to be Turing complete. You should do more than just skim read and then spout more incorrect nonsense.
>>51847627
By all means, show me a proof that HTML is turing complete.
Everthing I have found claims that CSS can implement rule 110, while none claim that HTML is also turing complete.
>>51847128
but it's not that's like saying watercolors are the same as whatever you paint the exterior of a house with.
>>51847527
It most definitely is a programming language, and it's performance can rival that of C.
>>51847527
>not knowing Javascript is JIT-compiled
>confusing interpreted languages with scripting languages
Topkek
>>51847919
i don't get this analogy. Explain?
>>51847971
interpreted languages ARE scripting languages
>>51847878
Wow, you're dense. Go read them again. You need both working together, it's not just CSS. I'm afraid I can't make this teaspoon any smaller for you.
Neither CSS nor HTML are Turing complete on their own. They need each other.
>>51847128
HTML and CSS are NOT programming.
JS is.
>>51847975
watercolor is for kids where adults use real paint
>>51848024
Here's one.
>http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4222
which leads to
>https://github.com/elitheeli/stupid-machines
>Implements rule 110 in HTML and CSS3. This is a more correct "proof" that CSS is Turing-complete.
This literally claims that CSS, and CSS only is the turing complete language. Yes it requires HTML, but no where does it claim that HTML is turing complete language you fuck.
So I'm asking again, show me a proof that claims HTML is a turing complete language.
>>51848036
thanks
>>51848002
>Implying V8 interprets Javascript
>Implying V8 doesn't do JIT compilation
>>51847411
Even a basic for loop is an algorithm.
>systems design
That is becoming a thing for engineers now, really. This is the old mentality that programming is only serious shit made in assembly and C. You old farts need to get with the times.
It doesn't mean that if a lot of retards and amateurs, or SJWs are using Javascript in some way, this makes them programmers. It depends what they are able to build with it. You can't compare a guy who does shader/WebGL games in Javascript with some liberated trans person who uses JS to apply some stock jQuery transitions to a page. This would be like comparing someone who can build a desktop application in C++ with some dumb bitch writing a cout C++ Hello world.
>>51848093
I can write fizzbuzz in HTML5 therefore it's Touring Complete.
>>51847963
Oh my gooooood
>>51848935
kek'd
>>51847411
>But webdev isn't real programming. There are no data structures, no algorithms, nothing even remotely that resembles systems design or architecture.
>It just utilizes existing, previously made architectures through the use of APIs. Just an interface.
Maybe for your average wordpress site that's true. I for an example write web services, and they absolutely require the appropriate use of design patterns and architecture.
This is especially true with tailored web software that is developed over the course of half a decade or more.
>>51847128
The only thing that can be considered a programming language that you listed is JS, and that's pushing it.
>>51847294
and they always will be
>>51849291
Which is beyond messed up, considering most people on /g/ are unemployed.
>>51847128
It's HTML and not HTPL for a reason
>>51847128
Why do you care?
You're the one who will have the last laugh if you are refining your skills with those.
>>51847411
>But webdev isn't real programming.
But the paychecks from it are.
>>51847128
they're all jewish botnets
>>51847491
no, but a pooinloo you are
OP, you have to understand that most people here are underachieving socially incompetent reclused permavirgins, and they are constantly in the look for someone / something to put down in order to feel themselves superior and pretend they have some importance to the world. That's why you have the "Muh c is bettr than ur scala" "Muh applel is better than ur thinkpad" which all just translate to "I am better I am special please notice me praying for a self-esteem boost"
>>51847411
>But webdev isn't real programming
HAHAHA. Good one skiddy. Graduate get your first job in an actual enterprise level project before you talk shit about grownup's work.
>>51847128
i think java script is programming, but it is a toy programming language made for the kitchen of programming, webdesign.
>>51847128
Can you just stop being a frogposting faggot first?
>>51847128
G is filled with scrubs still in college or highschool who have never actually worked on a DB driven web application before. They're just tryin to look cool. They think developing sites like fb, 4chan, reddit, or any site that is not just some basic blog is not real programming .
>>51847220
>js is pseudo-hipster programming
ftfy
>>51850724
pseudo-hipster programming is still programming
>>51849310
webdevs deserve all the shit they get
>>51847128
well, they're right about html5 and css.
>>51850287
this is a good thing to remember for 4chan in general.
>>51847128
WILL NEVER BE PROGRAMMING
https://soundcloud.com/fecshrooms/696a
>>51850888
pseudo-hipster programming is still pseudo-hipster programming
>>51850969
OK NVM, the first minute i thought it was something from an NES game.
>>51850969
Its in one of the earlier pokemon generation games. Its in some haunted place or some shit, with all the ghastly's flying around
>>51851001
thank you friend.
>>51850287
>"I am better I am special please notice me praying for a self-esteem boost"
>tripfag
Takes one to know one :^)
>>51850539
The problem is that it used to not be real programming. Ten, twenty years ago our website were stale, static pieces of shit. Today we have much more complex applications being produced on the web.
Do you consider creating stored procedures and triggers programming /g/?
>>51851025
I fucking love the static web 1.0 sites limited to gifs and images and some text. I fucking hate how many scripts get loaded every time you load a page these days.
>>51850629
it's a pretty good language actually. it's extremely expressive
i say that to mean that it's use of functional idioms allow very complex systems to be designed.
javascript is still rediscovering some things of the past, but the programming language allows all these concepts to be incorporated easily instead of just redesigning the whole programming language like C++ has had to do
>>51851047
I have mixed feelings.
If a site has any type of dynamic content, I'd rather load it in with js than use server-side shit. Any static site probably shouldn't use js at all though.
Js is scripting you kiddos
Saludos cordiales
>>51851015
looks like the description "desperate for attention and approval" hit close home since you reacted this defensively, so interesting, I feel like a visitor watching an animal in the zoo now :D
I work as JS/HTML5/VISUAL STUDIO SHIT codemonkey.
You're right, this web shit is NOT programming.
>>51851157
so is python but it's still a programming language
>>51851047
Well I've never heard any young, non-autistic person with a decent PC (not a toaster) complain about sites having too much stuff loading.
It's typically either old people who complain, those who are autists and own an IBM keyboard from the 1980s that they use everyday, or those who have single core PCs and think Javascript is to blame because their toaster can' t load a page.
>>51851281
normalfags are fine with anything though
they don't even block ads
>>51847522
Web developer here. I use a lot of C#, PHP, Python, and even Bash commands.
I could probably learn C when I wanna play around with Arduinos or make an industry switch, but there's not much point in the Internet world unless you need a speedy interface.
>>51851342
Why C#?
Javascript programming is simple procedural language based on a library of scripts which
Is a ux/ui helper at best. Html5/css are design languages fir browsers...
When your bosses require you to fix issues in pre-existing software, or need you to modify crm/cms plugins we will see how far Html5 takes you.
>>51851342
serious question, should a web-dev learn a backend js language? Or is php enough
>>51851394
it couldn't hurt.
>>51851394
PHP a shit, but it's enough if you're good at it.
Python and Ruby are also popular with some industries.
Node.js is hipster shit but some people are using it.
Never hurts to know more things.
>>51851417
are you considering learning node.js? I want to know what your plan is
>>51847128
Only JS is a programming language out of those.
>>51847317
Ugh. 5 years ago my boss (we were both 17, high school startup) was just like this.
He was always going on about how I shouldn't do anything in Flash (valid point)
...but he'd always go on about how I need to learn to do all of that in "HTML5"
That bugged me so much because I knew damn well that all I would end up doing is making it in js and possibly not even use new HTML5 tags. It was such an annoying buzzword back then.
>>51851281
what I hate about modern web is how reliant it is on javascript. you simply can't disable it without breaking 90% of the web.
>>51847128
But HTML5 is turing-complete. CSS is just a subset of HTML and js is just lol.
>>51850962
It's either programming or it isn't. Your ad-hominem pejoratives don't give or take anything away from that definition.
>>51851342
>I could probably learn C when I wanna play around with Arduinos
Why wait to learn C when you can use JavaScript and Johnny-Five?
>>51851394
NodeJS is essentially JS configured to be your backend, so you could ditch PHP altogether and just do that.
You can also do Ruby, Python, Java, or C# (if you're doing ASP misery)
Most third party enterprise-level hosts like RackSpace will have capability with running PHP or C#
>>51851360
ASP.NET requires you use C#, and it's useful in some of the more secure applications. DNN uses it and I used to do some
work with that, which is my primary reason.
>>51852721
Very good point, lemme look into Johnny-Five.
But also I hate how JS is structured as a language, and the direct machine-talk nature of C is pretty nice.
>>51852596
The modern web is like a video game in which the game core is written in C++ and the game maps are scripted in JS. The UI is made in html-css.
>>51851039
>>51851039
No more than giving a test and grading it are considerably "teaching".
if you don't use python you deserve to be keked
>>51850539
>ill call him a kid yeah thatll show him!!!!
>>51847294
Here's the thing.
There's so much wasted effort put into making JavaScript do things that A) rich clients already do, B) properly designed HTML already does, or C) is a usability nightmare. I look at the source of some of these retarded webpages and see them downloading a dozen different frameworks to do stupid shit. Often these frameworks are redundant, which tells me the developers don't understand enough actual programming to make one framework work, let alone :::gasp::: do their 2-3 little tricks without any framework at all.
And that's why webdevs are shit on.
Don't feel too bad. I shit on database developers chained to Entity too. And VS "pros" chained to a load of JetBrains add-ons.
>>51854384
what do you do?
C#, C++ or nothing
>>51849254
>and they absolutely require the appropriate use of design patterns and architecture
An object-oriented web development language?
That's news to me.
Mind you, I'm not talking about databases/SQL/EJBs.
>>51855237
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMfcsYzj-9M
Take a look, this guy does a good job
>>51855174
>making a website in C
good luck
>>51847411
>>51847431
>>51850931
You are talking only about front end web dev right?
>>51853394
>python
>async programming
pick one
>>51855894
a) he never mentioned async programming
b) asyncio
it's a markup language you fucking idiot
not programming
>frogposter
not falling for the b8. cya nerd.
>>51847128
Only js is actually about programming, frog-san.
>>51851050
JavaScript is autistic monkeys mindlessly bashing at the keyboard to reusing steaming piles of dung that were cast aside years ago, as outdated methodologies, by actual professionals.
>>51847128
dumb frogposter
>>51847128
>Can we just stop this shit?
I will when everyone else does.
>>51847128
You might want to look at this:
>http://www.jsfuck.com/
>http://infospace.ischool.syr.edu/2012/04/05/why-html-is-not-a-programming-language/
>>51847128
HTML5, CSS and JS are as much of a real language as Python
>Spoiler: which is, nothing.
>>51860806
>hurrrrrr, it doesn't touch metal, no real programming
>can't make fridge kernels with it, like real C pros
Actually you probably can, today.
And JS is sort of touching metal with typed arrays.
>>51847128
as someone who write html/css/js for a living i can honestly say, they are NOT programming languages.
THEY ARE SCRIPTING LANGUAGES!
read a book about real programming and you will immediately understand the differences. sorry you want to be a programmer so bad, but you are only a scripter.
>>51847128
No. Learn C and come back.
>>51848036
Those mediums have two different applications, not to mention watercolor painting is considered quite difficult.
>>51860877
You surely didn't understand anything from those books, since scripting is programming. Scripting languages are programming languages.
>>51860877
Programming is not only done in compiled languages.
