Java
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You are currently reading a thread in /g/ - Technology
You are currently reading a thread in /g/ - Technology
Why is it so popular?
Is it the Windows XP of languages?
Because it's an easy beginner language.
>>51828778
It has to be more than that if 4 TRILLION DEVICES USE JAVA
>>51828778
This fucking meme has to die.
Nah, Windows XP was good.
>>51828778
Java is difficult if you know how to use it right. Stop showing me your fedora tipping level anon.
>>51828857
Which meme? That it's easy, or that it's a beginner language? Because both are true.
>>51828762
Sun, Oracle and Google conspiring to defeat Apple and MS by recruiting an army of substandard coders.
the JVM dumbshits
>>51828762
i wish it was discontinued and unsupported by everything, maybe then the nightmare plague would finally begin to end...
>>51828762
Java is the new COBOL.
>>51829189
I like how everyone is ready to call Java out on being a nightmare, failure, retarded and whatnot and yet nobody can quite rationally explain why.
>>51828762
>Why is it so popular?
Because its useful.
>Is it the Windows XP of languages?
It's not. Even though I hate to admit it, perl is the Windows XP of languages.
>>51829223
Most people are just parroting shit.
What I don't like about Java is the verbosity, lack of first order functions/lambdas, the verbosity, and most of all the XML hell older libraries used to put you in.
Yes Java 8 has lambdas but it's pretty comically verbose. Also not every can upgrade to Java 8...
A lot of people who are seasoned are really bitching about libraries.
>>51828762
it actually werks and can be used for a lot of things with relative ease
>>51829402
could you explain to a complete retard [spoiler]2nd year compsci student[/spoiler] what lambdas are?
>>51829399
But what about perl 6?
>>51829223
Nobody can seem to rationally explain why any programming language is anything
>IT HAS X
>IT HASN'T Y
.....and? why is that a good thing? why is that a bad thing?
They never have an definitive answer
It's subjective usability concerns all the way down
>>51829434
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_function
basically I like map and reduce
>>51828762
Because it's machine independent and easy to port to just about fucking everywhere.
>>51829223
i hate how much of a fucking resource hog it is, case in point, minecraft, that fucking game should not run as dogshit as it does, compare it to it's c port and the c version blows it's ass away.
oh and how it's become a defacto exploitation method that's pretty uncool too
>>51829675
There's lots of languages like that.
It's popular purely because of inertia in the enterprise, and because Android chose to use it because it was the fastest/easiest to use language at the time that they could use for free. They still got sued by oracle, lel.
>>51829716
>minecraft
it's not an inherent fault of the language that the programmer is shit
>>51829799
Even if it was well written in Java, a well written C version would blow it away.
>>51829402
>first order functions
do you mean first class functions or higher order functions?
>>51829799
This
>>51829849
If you have any kind of decent system the difference wouldn't even be discernible
>>51829849
If you had unlimited time it would be better to make it in Assembly.
>>51829849
sure, but if it was written properly in java, it would run well enough for nobody to care about a C or assembly version anymore.
>>51829878
>implying
>>51829873
I want both in any language I use. I don't think java 8 actually has first class functions.
>>51829878
>implying you're a better Assembly writer than the compiler.
>>51829936
>>51829878
>unlimited time
unlimited time should be enough to get better at writing assembly than some compiler written by a guy with limited time
Business people love it because many people know it, so it's easy to hire and easy to fire. Also it is very verbose so it's easy to create statistics to show their boss. "our product has 7 766 211 lines of code more than our competitor."
>>51829874
>If you have any kind of decent system the difference wouldn't even be discernible
it certainly would because almost everything in Java goes on the heap. You can't even put primitives in a ListArray without them going on the fucking heap. As well that that taking much longer to allocate and access, it triggers GC events like a mother fucker.
There's also no pointers, and it's impossible to have non-bound checked array access.
What else..
You can't have unsigned integers, which is not a performance issue, but is fucking retarded and a pain to work around.
Yeah, Java is not a language that tries to make it easy to do very high performance code.
>>51829921
k, i was just confused about the expression.
i agree, both are generally nice things to have in a language. i think java 8 kinda, partially added something like that with the closure/lambda support, but i haven't programmed in java in a while.
>>51828778
>easy beginner language
>hello world statement is 5 lines of code
>python is one line
ebic.
>>51829675
So is source code and standard makefiles
>yfw the compile time for one program > the startup time every time you have to run a jvm
>>51828762
portability
literally the only reason
>>51829402
The amount of typing a programmer is required to do is probably the shittiest possible way to measure the efficacy of a programming language.
Verbose syntax is as weak sauce of an argument as it gets.
>>51829716
>oh and how it's become a defacto exploitation method that's pretty uncool too
This is how we know that you don't have any idea what you're talking about.
>>51829878
>>51829849
>people thinking language directly equates to speed
>implying it isn't the well-written code that makes use of features unavailable in other languages that makes a language 'faster'
If I wrote some dumb shit in Java, It would be the same dumb shit in C and probably worse dumb shit in ASM
>>51830104
It's just annoying. I'd tend to agree. The IDE handles most of the verbosity.
>>51829221
This is very accurate. In 50 years there will be places hiring java programmers to maintain ancient systems that haven't been shut down since 2012.
>>51830104
Java is semantically verbose as well.
>>51830104
It's not so much the amount of typing you need to do, but the amount of reading you need to do to understand a relatively simple piece of logic.
I can typically take the kind of logic that would require 5 classes in Java, each in separate files and using about 80-120 lines each and put it in one file in F# that would take 60-80 lines, and be much more readable and be just as fast/maintainable etc. Verbosity is not a non issue. It's one of the bigger issues with Java desu, and Java has many. It's not fun doing a complex project in Java and watch it rapidly explode into tens and sometimes hundreds of files to describe a solution to a problem that really should only take 1/10th the amount of code to define. It makes it harder for everyone on the project to understand the code, easier to miss bugs. It takes more time to fix and adjust stuff. Java is verbose for no reason, there's languages that can do the exact same shit that aren't anywhere close to it regarding verbosity.
- Easy to follow code, easy to maintain code
- Very good performance
- Very good debugging help: The JVM tells you what you did wrong.
- Way better (and largely free) tooling
- Incredibly versatile and scalable from smart cards, mobile devices, Bluray players... all the way up to avionics, scientific modelling, and can handle the server side data of virtually any large company on the internet (eBay, Twitter, Google, LinkedIn, etc).
- Open source
- The JVM is amazing
- And the list goes on and on.
>>51830128
>If I wrote some dumb shit in Java, It would be the same dumb shit in C and probably worse dumb shit in ASM
Sure, but solving a meaningfully difficult problem with well written Java and well written C will result in the C being much faster. Minecraft is a perfect example of this.
I thought of some others.
Checked vs unchecked exceptions. What the fuck do I use (I lean towards unchecked exceptions)
Type inference
Generics can be annoying
Unit testing zealots
>>51830071
>>hello world statement is 5 lines of code
no matter how you approach it that is not true
>>51830233
C# is better in every one of those
It werks in anything
>>51830281
Not even remotely true.
- Maintain? Tie
- Performance, tie.
- Debugging. Advantage Java.
- Tooling. Java and it's not even close.
- Versatile and scalable. Java and it's not even close.
- Open source. Java and it's not even close.
- JVM v .NET. Java / JVM and it's not even close.
C# has taken a few big steps (gradual move to open source being one of them), but it has a long way to go to catch Java in terms of the ecosystem.
>>51828762
Because all Sim cards run on it
>PIC RELATED.
>>51830444
The trips of truth have spoken.
>>51830329
>- Maintain? Tie
Better tooling, less verbose. Plenty of lovely language features that help makes code much cleaner and more readable.
>- Performance, tie.
structs, pointers, non-bound-checked array access, SIMD all make it faster.
Actually properly working generics make things run a lost faster too by reducing the amount of stuff that needs to go on the heap.
>- Debugging. Advantage Java.
LOL how?? The debugging and profiling tools for the CLR are fantastic.
>- Tooling. Java and it's not even close.
Eclipse is fucking awful. Why do you think Java has better tooling?
>- Versatile and scalable. Java and it's not even close.
Based on what exactly? What makes Java more versatile and scalable to you?
>- Open source. Java and it's not even close.
There's mono, but MS now also support the MIT licenced CoreCLR.
>- JVM v .NET. Java / JVM and it's not even close.
What are you even saying here? Did you mean "JVM vs CLR"? The JVM is one of the worst things about Java. It's the reason Java doesn't support proper generics, unsigned integers and lambdas were a huge pain to implement.
>but it has a long way to go to catch Java in terms of the ecosystem.
In some areas sure. But there's a lot of great shit for .NET. there's been a strong .NET open source community for ages. nuget.org is a good resource for that shit.
>>51830230
>it's not fun doing a complex project in Java
What are you on, it's one of the nicer languages for dealing with large scale projects.
>>51830525
I agree, but not because of its verbosity, but in spite of it. The same projects can be written in C# or F# and be much easier to work with.
>>51829466
I have no idea, I wasn't thinking of perl6 but I think that's the point.
From the perspective on a cs-student:
It was decent learning how data structures, hirarchy and stuff works, but when I had to do a more serious project for a Uni course it completely overwhelmed me
All that context and OnClickListenerReponseFactoryListCreator shit
Made me value the mathematical side a lot more
When I first started programming instead of asking a bunch of unemployed weeaboos and tranny lovers what would be the best language to learn, I asked my dad who has been working in a software development job for nearly 30 years now.
He said I should learn Java and not C++ or some other meme language, because there is literally nothing you can do in C but not in Java unless you are programming something like driver related software or graphic heavy video games (which none of you are not)
>>51830523
> Thinks 1 if statement check makes a large performance difference. cmon guy this is not Python or scripting language.
Want a big pay check and never be out of job for the next ten+ years? Learn COBOLT.
>>51830787
>there is literally nothing you can do in C but not in Java
Allocate a record type on the stack
>>51830778
if you have really make that factory crap, then you should re-look into design.
>>51830787
Your dad works in an enterprise development environment, and an outdated one at that. For your personal first language, it really doesn't matter. Old people don't change as much as autists don't change, and your dad is as much a slave to Java as anyone here is a slave to C or scheme. If your dad was a modern software developer working in a common area, he would probably tell you to start with node.js or python or something. Don't fall for anything, use whatever language is appropriate for the job.
And I have modified drivers and written graphics-heavy programs from scratch.
It's almost comical how little people know about the JVM and how much people like to bash Java with (mostly) false or inaccurate insults.
The best example was a thread that was on /g/ yesterday or the day before, where a guy had asked why comparing a Boolean to a boolean worked but a Boolean to a Boolean did not, when using ==.
There were two people (myself and one other person) who posted the correct reasoning. Everyone else turned it into an anti-Java circlejerk.
I am an Oracle Certified Master. I have worked with Java for the last 10 years and I have worked specifically on high-performance JVM applications for the last 3 years.
I'll answer any questions about Java or the JVM.
>>51830018
While I agree that you're mostly right, you have to remember that Java was created to have a portable, more secure language than C/C++ with the sacrifice of some freedoms/efficiency
>>51830523
C# just has shitty support for Linux and OSX, way less community in the OSS field, which leads to much less libraries and tools on those system. Its basically a wasteland at this point compared to Java.
I would also like to see benchmarks for your performance claim.
>>51831157
so what's the correct reasoning?
>>51830787
>which none of you are not
>you in charge of not using double negatives
>>51831216
Autoboxing. When comparing a primitive to an object (and they are the same "type", i.e. boolean and Boolean or int and Integer, etc.) the JVM will automatically convert the object to a primitive.
For example:boolean a = true;
Boolean b = true;
Boolean c = new Boolean(true);
a == b would be true, because the JVM would convert b from an object to a primitive.
b == c would be false, because, since both are objects, they aren't converted to primitives before comparing.
The bytecode would be something like:L3
GETSTATIC java/lang/System.out : Ljava/io/PrintStream;
ILOAD 1
ALOAD 2
INVOKEVIRTUAL java/lang/Boolean.booleanValue ()Z
IF_ICMPNE L4
LDC "a == b"
GOTO L5
L4
FRAME FULL [[Ljava/lang/String; I java/lang/Boolean java/lang/Boolean] [java/io/PrintStream]
LDC "a != b"
L5
FRAME FULL [[Ljava/lang/String; I java/lang/Boolean java/lang/Boolean] [java/io/PrintStream java/lang/String]
INVOKEVIRTUAL java/io/PrintStream.println (Ljava/lang/String;)V
The INVOKEVIRTUAL calls Boolean.booleanValue(), which returns the primitive value of a Boolean object, which allows comparing it to another primitive.
>>51830523
>Plenty of lovely language features that help makes code much cleaner and more readable.
Or allow people to fuck it up completely. modest languages like C or Java always enforce cleaner codebases than shit like C++.
>>51831328
thanks bro
>>51828762
I N D I A
N
D
I
A
>>51830871
>Thinks 1 if statement check makes a large performance difference
it does when you are iterating over an array with a million items. Even more so when each of those items it on the heap, which is where Java tends to want to put everything.
>>51831163
C# is better in every way though.
>>51831175
What sort of stuff is lacking in .NET that is available on Java?
>>51831435
>What sort of stuff is lacking in .NET that is available on Java?
The abillity to choose. In C# theres usually just one single monolithical stack you are forced to use.
This is mainly due to Microsofts historical strategy with the language. If you wanted to do web you had to use, ASP.NET which means you had to use IIS and Windows Server and Visual Studio. This is just an example but a general problem with the languages ecosystem, it doesnt fit into a world of small modular OSS tools.
Java offers tons of modular self contained projects that you can freely combine as you like (on any platform) without forcing you into a direction.
>>51830144
I kind of doubt it, the hardware they're running COBOL on was built for 20 year minimum uptimes.
>>51831690
>In C# theres usually just one single monolithic stack you are forced to use.
stack? Stack for what?
For Web stuff MS provide ASP.NET, which has tonnes of different frameworks that run on top of it. All open source of course. But there's loads of open source libraries. I quite fancy suave.io myself. I know StackOverflow uses a lot of non MS web stuff (that site is 100% C# btw).
>ASP.NET which means you had to use IIS and Windows Server and Visual Studio.
ASP.NET supports mono has has for awhile now. ASP.NET 5, which is RC now treats os x and linux as first class citizens and can deploy to each platform with CoreCLR.
>Java offers tons of modular self contained projects that you can freely combine as you like (on any platform) without forcing you into a direction.
That describes every popular language.
>>51830144
No, in 50 years they'll still be looking for COBOL developers to maintain ancient shit.
>>51828762
Not too difficult to use and it's pretty portable due to the JVM (at least in theory)
When is Java going to get higher-kinded types?
>>51832030
Java doesn't even have proper generics. Don't expect this in our lifetime.
>>51829921
It's just sintactic sugar for an interface with only one method that in Java 7 where used with anonymous classes.
>>51832048
Is there something specific you're looking for?
>>51832308
to be able to doListArray<int>()
for one
>>51832334
Use the wrapper classes.
List<Integer>List<Integer> list = new ArrayList<Integer>();
list.add(0);
int[] array = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5};
for(int i : array) list.add(i);
works fine.
>>51832334
why exactly do you need an array list of primitives? why isArrayList<Integer>not sufficient for whatever you want to do?
>>51832386
>>51832390
I know, but everyone one of those Integers goes on the heap. So an array with a million Integers is going to fucking huge. Accessing each value will be slower and it makes GC events much slower due to the high number of objects on the heap.
>>51832426
Integers are actually cached after their initialized, so any repeat values being added will be returned from the cache.
But a million, non-repeating Integers would be pretty large.
You can use a standard int[] and resize as necessary. Using copyOf() is actually quite efficient; it's a native method, so it's pretty much the equivalent of using C's memcpy() on a pointer.
>>51829874
read again.
the c version blows the java version away. and this was aeons before microsoft acquisition. it would have been done by the same shit programmer.
>>51829889
what makes you think it's not properly written in java?
>>51832631
Have you watched Notch's programming videos?
Plus it's Java. Minecraft has been reverse-engineered a million times over.
>>51830126
senpai that's not true at all, firefox actually blocks java by default for this very reason.
>>51832426
What kind of project would require such an array list anyway?
Sounds like some crafted nit-pick with little practical value.
>>51832651
no because frankly that sounds pretty boring. what did he do wrong?
>>51832728
Everything.
>>51832587
>Integers are actually cached after their initialized, so any repeat values being added will be returned from the cache.
That's actually even worse since every time you add an int it checks to see does it exist in the cache first. I also presume this means Integers are immutable? So if i change the value of a variable Integer type, it ends up creating garbage. Jesus.
>You can use a standard int[] and resize as necessary.
Which is awful that that's what I have to do, when in other languages I can just writeArrayList<int>
and not even think twice about it.
>>51832669
>Sounds like some crafted nit-pick with little practical value.
Jesus christ, Java programmers are the worst. You really can't think of why you'd want a dynamically sized array of ints?
Just a few weeks ago I made a ArrayList in F# stores the current frame rate at each frame, and adds a new int on each frame. I can then save the contents and analyse it later.
How about recording mouse movements on screen? You might have a Point class and have an ArrayList<Point>, but ideally you don't want every single item in the ArrayList to be an object on the heap, especially when there could be millions of them and the code that iterates over them is performance critical. You might also be memory sensitive and don't want to trigger GC events. In C# you can just make Point a struct, and then it will always be a value type and you have no worries. In Java it has to go on the heap, there's no other option.
>>51830071
python is a scripting language tho
>>51830274
I think he means programpublic class HelloWorld {
public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println("Hello, World");
}
}
>>51832835
cool
>>51832894
>storing mouse movement as an array list of points
to what end
When people compare Java to C you know it's time to abort thread
>>51833130
yeah it always ends with a deadlock
>>51832894
>Which is awful that that's what I have to do, when in other languages I can just write
Right, but if performance is your issue, you can manipulate the the "pointer" of the array. It'll be much faster than using a List.public static void main(String[] args) throws Exception {
int[] array = {1, 2, 3};
array = appendArray(array, 4, 5, 6);
for (int i : array) System.out.println(i);
}
static int[] appendArray(final int[] array, final int... newEntries) {
int[] newArray = Arrays.copyOf(array, array.length + newEntries.length);
System.arraycopy(newEntries, 0, newArray, array.length, newEntries.length);
return newArray;
}
>>51833122
how about a drawing application? And you want to record the points of the strokes made, instead of the bitmap image.
>>51833198
>It'll be much faster than using a List.
yeah, and I'm saying it's ugly as shit and you only have to do it because Java can't do proper generics like C# does.
>>51828762
>use java its so good because its the most portable language so many devices use it
>jre written in C
whoops!
>>51833315
It won't be a concern for much longer, because Java 10 is ditching primitives.
>>51830787
>because there is literally nothing you can do in C but not in Java unless you are programming something like
oh cool so you can do everything except some things.
so you can do less is what you are saying.
>>51833369
>because Java 10 is ditching primitives.
wut?
also, we're only on 8 now. That's gonna be 5 years away or some shit?
>>51833450
It's on schedule for a 2018 release.
It also introduces typeless objects (like 'val' in Javascript) and 64-bit arrays.
>>51833501
>It also introduces typeless objects
val? you mean "var"? do you mean dynamic typing?
Java couldn't do 64-bit arrays up to now? jesus
>portability
>class-loading
about my favourite reasons
>>51833578
well let's be honest, an int-long array is fucking huge. An int of ints is like 8gigs
>>51828762
It's a good beginner language to OOP, but I preferred C++ when I started out.
>>51833578
confirmed clueless monkey
>>51831407
This is really the main reason, and along with them comes their "enterprise" tool set and design techniques. Java is the designated shitting language, and this is unfortunate. In any case, Java isn't dying. It's not COBOL (at least not yet).
>>51828762
>Is it the Windows XP of languages?
It's the Windows Vista of languages. Actually fantastic, but idiots focus on minor speed/memory decreases and it's inability to cause seg faults/memory leaks. Similarly newer languages have come out that would are better in comparison, but that doesn't mean it's bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dKhrAR67DY
>neckbeards who only masturbate to hello world benchmarks diss java
>they don't realize there is people too retarded to learn C because they're self taugh
>they won't realize it's better to have shit slow code that works than shit fast code that crashes
>they can't think not everything needs C speed
>the bullying of java will never stop
>the slow meme will never die
>>51836187
>they won't realize it's better to have shit slow code that works than shit fast code that crashes
Java isn't really that much better, Anon.
>>51836187
Actually, let me rephrase that. Java isn't that much safer to use. You're still living on the edge, Anon. You rebel!
>>51836187
looks like shit desu
>>51836187
the slow thing ain't a meme esse, it's very fact
>>51829716
>Even mentioning a game as a reason.
Hello retard.
>>51831760
>stack? Stack for what?
Anything.
Package management? Only one tool that offers only second-class support for non-Windows.
GUI Frameworks? There's only WinForms for Mono which doesn't even have a GUI editor. There's maybe GTK#, but many projects related are basically dead.
The only IDE I can use is Xamarin Studio and its just not as good as the options for Java. I'm certainly not going to run VS in a VM.
>For Web stuff MS provide ASP.NET, which has tonnes of different frameworks that run on top of it
This is the key point, everything is ASP.NET, there is nothing else. the ASP.NET implementation of mono happens to perform horribly compared to most other web servers. Open this benchmark, then scroll three pages down till even you find the first web server based on Mono: https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r11&hw=peak&test=db
>which is RC now
So just about another 5 years until it hits the Centos or Debian stable repository and we can start arguing about using it.
