Dear /g/,
A few days ago, I had an interesting discussion with my friend about how programmers are treated/seen in modern times. Programmers are the architects of our future. The world over relies on the work these people do, but they are seldom seen as anything but nerds, loners and losers, seldom worthy of professional acknowledgement.
I personally believe that while programmers ought to be distinguished, constraints applied by acadamia and the relative "newness' of the field hold back positive public perception and reverence. Hear me out:
>A doctor goes through 8 years of school
>Works tirelessly to obtain his degree
>Enters into a practice with high student debts, but is able to pay them off quickly due to high return on investment
>His profession, and himself, are revered and highly respected among most people
>A Lawyer goes through 8 years of school
>Works tirelessly to obtain his degree and pass his exams
>Enters into a law firm with high debts but makes a good return on investment
>Considered highly educated and is part of a "high aptitude" skill class
The programmer on the other hand, has not the institutions the former two have. Programmers aren't given the same decoration the doctor or lawyer are for a lot of reasons.
>Post-College education is non-existent for the CS major (no code-school for him!)
>Most programmers had to learn early on by themselves in their free time (if a doctor said he learned medicine in his free time, you'd run for the hills)
>A four year degree can land you a nice cushy job with some great pay
>Getting your doctorate basically only lets you teach
>It's become a fucking meme profession and is picked up by people who think it's the big bucks, instead of people wanting to creatively tackle problems.
What can be done /g/? What SHOULD be done?
>>51775119
>What SHOULD be done?
Nothing. Programmers are a commodity. Only exceptionalism should be revered in a field where anyone can call themselves one after writing their first "hello world" smartphone app.
Also, architect here. Stop using our fucking word. It takes, on average, then years to become a licensed architect. And there are strict limitations on who can legally call themselves one.
>>51775373
>then years
Fucking phone.
>>51775391
At least it made me chuckle!
>>51775119
It boils down to in the end the fact that Human life is a factor with doctors and Lawyers. A person who is a doctor is looked on with more prestige because the common way of thinking is that a 'doctor saves lives' . Lawyers on the other hand are viewed as scummy but they make a ton of money so at least they are respected in the money making aspect
and then you have programmers. The majority of their work isn't 'life saving' and isn't as big bucks as the lawyers... at least that's the common perception. You could be a coder who is working on new fancy medical equipment that cures cancer via your program but people will go LOL FIX MY COMPUTER PLZ
since we're on the subject of bitching, its amazing how a person who becomes a doctor can specialize in something, like becoming a heart doctor or a skin doctor... but with programmers people think LOL YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW TO PROGRAM IN C,JAVA,SQL,FOLTRAN,MAINFRAME,AND SOME OTHER SHIT ALL AT THE SAME TIME (of course this is for entry level too)
>>51775119
>Programmers are the architects of our future.
Uh. Okay.
Programmers are the modern equivalent of automotive factory workers in the 1960s.
I would estimate that about 10% of all programming related jobs require any significant knowledge of mathematics and computer science. 90% of them only require the ability to spot painfully obvious inefficiencies, and simply having a strong command of the programming domain (e.g. actually *understanding* SQL versus just knowing how to do a basic SELECT) is vastly more important.
>>51775119
>>It's become a fucking meme profession and is picked up by people who think it's the big bucks, instead of people wanting to creatively tackle problems.
truth truth truth
>>51775540
because when you master C you mastered everything
>>51775373
Thank you. I have the same issue with words like "SEO Engineer". I'm an SEO guy from a family of engineers and it's not even remotely comparable.
>>51775119
I personally disagree with this. No one's respected lawyers this much since the 90s. In fact, most of your post would have made sense in the 90s but makes no sense whatsoever now.
>Getting your doctorate basically only lets you teach
Or work for one of the big four companies, or something like the copenhagen wheel company or Boston dynamics.
>Most programmers had to learn early on by themselves in their free time
I don't know a single programmer who started like this with the exception of the "leet hackers" who started out editing the CSS on their myspace or xanga profiles in high school.
>Post-College education is non-existent for the CS major
Many CS majors go to graduate school to specialize.
>It's become a fucking meme profession and is picked up by people who think it's the big bucks, instead of people wanting to creatively tackle problems.
I don't really understand how this is any different from any other job. It's not so much "I can make the big bucks" as it's "I can make enough to feed myself without operating on people or being on an oil rig hundreds of miles from my family".
I think as soon as we get some top of the line programmers who don't fit the "awkward nerd who watches star trek and spent his college years playing pokemon" stereotype, we'll be a lot closer to being a highly regarded profession.
I also think gamergate essentially pushed the public perception of 'nerd culture' back to the stone age.
Programming now is all about reinweting the wheel in another super cool and awesome *insert some buzzword here* language
>>51775546
>Programmers are the modern equivalent of automotive factory workers in the 1960s.
Thats not really comparable though. Every time you program something you have to solve a new problem. Factory work is just doing one repetitive task over and over again.
Its not even comparable to building a system according to some construction plan, cause the act of making that plan in any specification is already equivalent to writing the program.
There's always a certain level of creativity and ingenuity involved when you program something, let alone when you program something actually good.
>>51775778
>Factory work is just doing one repetitive task over and over again.
So is most software.
Sounds like you don't realize how repetitive the vast majority of software is. The only reason most of it seems different or challenging is because you lack experience.
>>51775762
omfg this
( i used omfg after 8 years)
>>51775546
>Programmers are the modern equivalent of automotive factory workers in the 1960s.
nope.jpg
Factory workers have absolutely zero impact on how things are made. They're taught exactly what they're supposed to and they just repeat exactly what they've been taught over and over again. Think the factory scenes in Charlie Chaplin's Modern Times except less comedic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfGs2Y5WJ14
As a programmer what you get is a general specification on what you're supposed to create, but a large part of how it's done is up to you. I'd compare it to working in an automotive drawing office where people design stuff like door locking mechanisms, suspension components, transmission parts and all the other parts that are designed in-house. Even there you're not given the go-ahead to design things however you want. You loads of limitations when it comes to size, cost and the amount of space that a part can take. Not only that, if things are done well, like in with software your work is tested for flaws both on it's own and as part of the full product before it's let out onto the market.
>>51775932
>So is most software.
Even at it's worst when you're writing boilerplate code there's a lot more thought going into it than doing the same assembly step over and over again.
>>51775119
Just wait until they finally make an algorithm that produces working, elegant, and unique code for a wide variety of projects. Most of you code monkeys will be out on the street.
>>51775998
>Even at it's worst when you're writing boilerplate code there's a lot more thought going into it than doing the same assembly step over and over again.
Not really.
But hey, let's just say there is. Let's say that we're not just inflicting this perpetual desperation cycle on ourselves by jumping ship to new technologies every other week. Let's just say that it's a simple fact of life in making software.
So fucking what? You're still at the same level within society as an automotive plant worker in the 1950s. EVERYTHING is shifting upwards.
People are hardly employed to chop down trees anymore. Vast amounts of completely unskilled manual labor have been done by machines since the late 1800s. The whole world shifted upward, leaving you occupying the same spot as automotive workers in the past.
>>51775932
>So is most software.
Nobody is going to pay you to program the same application again, like he would for building cars.
If you end up doing something repeatedly, you should maybe consider making a reusable version of it, thats what programming is all about. Even languages that require much boilerplate like C, still offer ways to automate most of the repetitive tasks.
Programming is never about doing a certain amount of work and then you are done, its about finding a good solution to a problem. You can't measure the productivity in lines of code (companies tried, and it ended up in an utter mess). A single gifted programmer can create something more valuable than a team of 10 morons. Software projects are almost impossible estimate for similar reasons.
>>51776527
>If you end up doing something repeatedly, you should maybe consider making a reusable version of it, thats what programming is all about.
CRUD apps, bro. It's damn near the same thing over and over, and it powers businesses of the world.
>Programming is never about doing a certain amount of work and then you are done
Total bullshit. Stop trying to paint yourself as something you aren't.
>Software projects are almost impossible estimate for similar reasons.
Depends entirely on the type of project and the team.
Again, a HUGE portion of the software out there is largely the same thing over and over again. Don't believe me? Then why do we have so many web software stacks? Because each time people found themselves doing effectively the same thing over and over, so they wrote a new stack to address that class of problem.
Good desu, stops people from taking jobs that I want
>>51776237
Not even that is true.
You can work mainly self-organized in a quiet office job, partly even from home. If you're good you have the opportunity to earn much more than the average, or get into project management/middle management. You aren't as easily replaceable since you grew to have knowledge of your projects nobody else has.
Actually, most jobs I can think of are way shittier than being a software developer.
>>51776576
CRUD can be automated quite nicely with the right framework. You just define the objects and the required data types and you can generate forms and database queries to create/update/delete those objects automatically.
Maybe the problem is that you just hate your job and/or suck at it. Maybe go ahead and do some factory work to see what an actually repetitive job looks like.
Why should people who get a bachelor in CS be respected on the same level as a doctor or a lawyer?
If you get a master degree, you can secure yourself a well paying job, if you get a phd, you can do stuff that will earn you respect on the level you are requesting.
But getting a bachelor and writing fizzbuzz on 4chan is hardly something that should be respected.
>>51775119
>>A doctor goes through 8 years of school
>>Works tirelessly to obtain his degree
>A Lawyer goes through 8 years of school
>Works tirelessly to obtain his degree and pass his exams
>A CS student goes through 4 years of school
>spends a lot of time on 4chan and talking about ricing linux
Why should he be respected?
Because software is currently generating the most impact on the world -- both positive and negative. And who writes software? It's not that hard to figure out.
>>51776866
>Maybe the problem is that you just hate your job and/or suck at it.
Dumbfuck, I don't write CRUD apps. But what I do doesn't reflect the majority of the software industry.
Incidentally, the guy talking about how every little thing he does is a whole new and uniquely difficult task probably shouldn't be telling other people that they're bad at their job.
>>51776734
>Actually, most jobs I can think of are way shittier than being a software developer.
Dear Diary,
Today I posted something completely irrelevant about "shittiness" of jobs. Nobody was talking about anything of the sort, but I sure got a feeling of accomplishment from it.
>>51777142
Cats?
>>51775119
>What can be done /g/? What SHOULD be done?
I think making it more like a proper discipline of engineering would be good enough, starting with proper accreditation for programmers. Have chartered software engineers / programmers or something that have actually studied hard and passed exams to prove they know their shit, then when someone says they're a programmer, if they're not chartered everyone can just laugh at them like the Self taught doctor.
>>51775119
>(if a doctor said he learned medicine in his free time, you'd run for the hills)
why? that shows he's interested and passionate about helping people as opposed to someone who just becomes a doctor for the high salary
>>51777811
>(if a doctor said he learned medicine in his free time, you'd run for the hills)
He obviously means in the context of a self taught doctor applying for a job at a hospital or surgery or something, they would be laughed out of the building
>>51777920
But programmers can get away with it
>>51779568
Yes, because they are two different fields.
One, no one dies if a programmer messes up.
Two, you have all the programming tools you need right in front of you and can practice with them for nothing except time. Good luck finding cadavers or guinea pigs to mess around with to learn doctoring on your own.
>>51779609
>no one dies if a programmer messes up
This isn't entirely true, especially when we get to radiation therapy machines. But dying to a programming error is an extremely rare occurrence.
But to apply that to our "respected" professions:
>if a lawyer fucks up someone could be sentenced to death
>if a doctor fucks up a person could die
>if an architect fucks up hundreds of people could die
This is part of why these fields are so heavily regulated. And why there are laws against calling yourself one of the above without proper licensure.
>>51775119
>waaaaa! why aren't janitors praised like doctors???/ mommy!111
>>51780504
>Comparing programmers to janitors
Holy retard batman
People that don't take Computer Science think that it's just installing apps and making sure a computer is running at 100%.
That's the problem. That's why you're not glorified.
>>51781897
>CS
>programming
Choose one.
>>51780462
I had a thought that if in the future if computers get integrated into the brain / automated cars and shit, then programmer fuck ups COULD cause deaths, in which case this kind of extremely technical programming could be regarded similarly to medicine.
Of course, it's very different from writing FizzBuzz in Java or making web apps in Ruby on a mac.
>>51775119
Good programmers spend all their hard work programming and making fuckloads of money, and the rest enjoying their lives. They don't waste time pandering to society. As it should be.
>>51781897
When 99% of the job options that you have later are shit IT-trash can do. I don't blame them.
>>51780462
>if an architect fucks up hundreds of people could die
Do you even know what an architect does?
Programming is like construction for modern society. Of course it's vital to the society but most of the people who work in this field actually do mundane works as they should be doing. If you compare an average programmer to an average doctor of course he's not as important and not as respected.
Thinking programming is some sort of prestigious futuristic field is as wrong as thinking it's an unimportant thing that nerds do, which by the way no one actually thinks nowadays since it pays so much.
I'm sure there will come a day when for example so much of society's production will depend on robots and you will get big name AI and engineering experts who are hailed as some sort of forefathers of modernity. And looking back from then society will regard computer scientists in general more highly. But to be honest who gives a shit if a code monkey is mocked at a random party?
>>51780462
> if an architect fucks up hundreds of people could die
U wot m8
>>51783327
>Do you even know what an architect does?
Do you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse
Given, the KC Hyatt was a collective failure of dozens of people. Which is why it's so rare. A shitton of people have to fuck up. Or at least not notice the original fuck up. And while the three architecture firms involved avoided blame, it was still one of them that provided the original, unbuildable, inadequate detail that started this chain of fuck ups.
Why do you think liability insurance is so high for architecture firms?
I'm a CS major who works part time as a codemonkey / project leader. Most of my working time is spent on writing basic CRUD. It's an okay job, but I still feel slightly empty while doing it. Never in my working life have I had to implement even the most basic algorithm like A*, or really use my knowledge of calculating the running times of something using amortized analysis. I suppose it's the same if an architect were to work on a construction site. They probably love buildings but would rather spend their time actually designing them than drilling holes in the walls.
I studied linear algebra, string processing, computer vision, and all the other cool stuff so I could use it one day. Right now that kind of work feels like a distant dream. I don't really want to work for the university, under the supervision of some old bearded dude, who's mainly interested in doing the kind of research that only matters in the academic sense. I want to build AI for robots, do arcane optimisations for low level embedded C, design algorithms that predict the future, and code compilers for quantum computers. Where do I sign up for that?
>>51783657
Honestly, those algorithms have no place in typical jobs. Amortized analysis is nice but no one in industry cares because it's more important to get shit done than to have things optimized.
If you want to do some pretty nice algorithm design, work at a start up doing machine learning?
Obviously if you're in it for the "big bucks" you will crash and burn you try and explain a compiler to a lay person and their fucking head explodes or "yeah I know what programming is, I took an HTML course"
>>51779568
Which is why I said that there should be proper certification / acreditation for programmers and software engineers so they can become chartered, then when someone who isn't chartered tries to get a job they get laughed away.
>>51783657
> doesn't want to work for the university
> AI
> Where do I sign up for that?
You do know that the reason you can't go and work for some AI development studio is because AI doesn't exist in any coherent form. If you want to contribute to that field (and can), go chat to people at the university. All of that theory shit you do on paper is important. I got involved in a basic robotics project last year and I loved it. It's what's inspired me to work hard so that I have a hope of being able to do research in that field.
>>51775611
>xanga
God damn where has the time gone....
>>51783657
doesn't what you want to do matter in an academic sense? I don't get what you mean. The only way you're going to be able to do those things is and not waste your time is to do it through a university. No one is going to pay you for shit that's not profitable.
Maybe your university sucks ass, but even my CS department has an AI division with tons of graduate students
Maybe it's time to change schools
>>51776006
>they
triggered
