We've all seen a bunch of recent news articles about replacing unskilled labor (cashiers, clerks) with robots, but I've always wondered why we still have pharmacists.
Pharmacy seems tailor-made to be replaced by a robot; you don't need to train a robot for years at an expensive post-graduate school; it's database can be updated immediately; far less error-prone than a human; and human pharmacists don't have any actual judgment or dexterous skills that couldn't be easily replicated by a robot that checks a database and fills a scrip.
Why hasn't this happened yet? What other professional-class jobs could/should/will be replaced by robots?
I think it's because it would be expensive as fuck.
>>51298924
Actually, since I posted the topic, I googled it and apparently there are pharmacist robots. They cost about $200k which is what a pharmacist makes in two years, so in year three it pays for itself.
Apparently the only reason they haven't been replaced is because human pharmacists have lobbied to make it illegal.
>>51298790
soon enough all the meds you need will be available in a vending machine, much as caffeine and sugar is today.
So what does the post-work world look like? I'm having a hard time thinking of jobs that can't/shouldn't be replaced by robots in the near future (surgeons?)
In the most cynical view, the capitalists that own the robots are incredibly rich, and almost everyone else is a serf. But if we have the means to make everyone unemployed, shouldn't we relish in that? Support everyone and make them unbound by the shackles of the 9 to 5?
Would that not enable a new Renaissance, a rebirth of the arts and philosophy? But all I can see now is last night's debate where candidates claimed wages are too high and people should work for less because it's good for the "economy"
>>51299075
Before robot revolution
>customer <- pharmacist <- stock <- ... (distribution chain etc)
Post-robot revolution
>customer <- robot <- stock <- ...
But now you have an added layer of work
>robot <- technician <- spare parts <- ...
So you didn't really change anything all that much. Instead of paying $100K a year to a pharmacist you'll be paying $100K a year to the technician, except that now you have the added cost of the robot itself.
Not only that but how can you be sure the robot will have a 100% uptime? You'll need a supervisor too.
Automation is only good when a human cannot do the work (fuckhuge warehouses, making cars, etc). In that case the extra maintenance / supervision is acceptable.
Probably because pharmacists have functions that a robot isn't capable of, that you don't know of because you don't know shit about pharmacy.
Similar to the idea of robotics replacing flight control towers.
As soon as i saw that listed on the BBC site i almost faceplalmed a tornado into existence.
Yeah, like people will risk the automated tower having a system bug, a sudden loss of power for whatever reason, or any kind of system hindrance, in a trade that requires the uninterrupted control of hundreds and thousands of flights at the same time for every fucking second, where every lost second means lost planes and potentially unacceptable casualties.
That's why even with automated control towers, the human element controller will still exist along side it as a backup just in case because the stakes are too unacceptable otherwise.
The same goes for the automotive industry. Despite the state of the art most modern robotics imaginable working on car chassis and welding, car manufacturers still have hundreds of human crew members working in tandem with the robots, a sight you can experience yourself if you go on tours.
Too many uninformed uneducated idiots with truly deluded overestimating dreams of the capability and importance of robotics and automation. It ain't the "end all, be all" solution in most cases.
>>51299264
Government forced to give a minimum to survive to each and every citizien.
Some people still work and manmade products become the new soy/whole foods/bio
>>51299424
>pharmacists have functions that a robot isn't capable of
Like what exactly? My understanding of a pharmacist's role is mostly custodial:
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/robot_invasion/2011/09/will_robots_steal_your_job_2.html
>>51298790
There are people need to ask the pharmacists questions about their medications.
It is not just "here are your pills mum" (in an old British accent)
>>51298790
Because when I have to buy medicine, the pharmacist tell me how I should take it, when... if I can take it with other medicines or not, etc. If he doesn't have the one I should take and they don't have it, he can give me something that replace it when it can be replaced.
>>51299438
> forced to give a minimum to survive
Why? robotics can work 24/7 365~
and at speeds greatly surpassing human capabilities
We could have products at very decreased prices
it's a question of responsibility. that's why they have people who studied that stuff rather than just clerks, even though clerks could do the job. meds are srs business. legal issues etc
>>51298790
liability. If a pharmacist dispenses the wrong drug they get fired. If a robot dispenses the wrong drug, the company that made it gets their ass sued off.
There's also this:
http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.com/drug-topics/news/modernmedicine/modern-medicine-feature-articles/pharmacy-robot-linked-bacterial-con?page=full
This is solvable though, they probably didn't do anything like semiconductor robots do.
Also, probably cause drug laws say that a person has to dispense the drugs. The drug dispensing robot would also need to be FDA approved. It can happen, it will just take time.
Another problem is that pharmacists have to deal with old people who don't fucking understand technology.
>>51299384
I think you underestimate just how reliable industrial robots are. Robots are not profitable to operate if they have to fixed all the time. Current industrial robots typically have a MTBF of 100,000 hours, or 10 years of continuous operation. Sure, preventative maintenance is done on them, but this is done at regular 'mileage' intervals.
And for a pharmacy, said robot isn't operating all the time, so maintenance would be need less often. BUT because it's not operating all the time, it's not generating $$$ all the time, so it may not be worth it for this sort of thing.
There is also the problem that someone still has to load the pills. Industrial robots need stuff to be in exactly the right place or they don't work.
>>Automation is only good when a human cannot do the work (fuckhuge warehouses, making cars, etc). In that case the extra maintenance / supervision is acceptable.
hahahahaha, no. Humans used to do those things(and in some cases still do). Extra maintenance/supervision is not acceptable for these scenarios.
>>51299613
People still need things to survive dumb ass. Robots won't automagically create food/shelter/water
>>51299424
You're a dumbass.
>>51299468
interacting with old people. Telling people about the side effects of the drugs they are giving them. The second could be done by a robot, if we didn't have old people who have never been exposed to computers.
>>51299075
>human pharmacists have lobbied to make it illegal.
>mfw
>>51299789
By the time this becomes a widespread reality those old people will be long dead and others will have grown up exposed to technology.
It's really the same shit that happened with gas stations, before there were people assigned to fuel your car, now everyone does it by themselves.
>>51299264
>I'm having a hard time thinking of jobs that can't/shouldn't be replaced by robots in the near future
Well, there's programmers for one. Also almost every scientist.
>>51299835
I would say that also most trade jobs won't be replaced by robots in the near future, not just because it's too expensive but also because so far robots can't really make movements that are too complex.
>>51299824
So what do I do if I have questions about the drug? I can't ask a robot.
>>51299424
You're an idiot.
>>51299424
>Yeah, like people will risk the automated tower having a system bug, a sudden loss of power for whatever reason, or any kind of system hindrance
Can't this happen to a manned tower as well? Surely a computer system will deal with a failure more gracefully than a human anyway.
>car manufacturers still have hundreds of human crew members working in tandem with the robots
At least in the US, this is partly due to labor unions.
>>51299871
That's why everything you need to know is written in little piece of paper full of instructions.
>>51299863
Well it depends how near we're talking. If we mean 20ish years then my answer is almost none since even if it becomes possible in that time it still won't be cost effective. I meant 50+ years before we get to the point of just having scientists and engineers.
>>51298790
Because a robot cant sell you other medical shit you don't need.
>>51299894
>Can't this happen to a manned tower as well?
Nope. There are analog backups in place. Digital and analog must exist together in such high risk avenues. Control towers will never be truly automated.
>At least in the US, this is partly due to labor unions.
Bentley ain't the US, and neither are many European countries and manufacturers.
>>51299871
Why not? You're just gonna go home and Google it anyway. The robot will be able to connect to medical information services and get you the data you'd otherwise have to search for.
>>51299956
An automated ATC tower would probably be used more for guiding unmanned airliners (which have their own logic that keeps them flying) rather than dealing with human-operated craft. That way, a failure of the system wouldn't leave human pilots dangerously clueless.
Then you would just need the Auto-ATC to communicate effectively with the human ATCs to manage manned and unmanned traffic.
>>51299824
except in oregon and new jersey
>>51299835
Scientist might be a difficult logic to write, but I imagine it's relatively trivial to write a program that can program other programs.
>>51300354
Computers can't create unique or creative ways to solve problems. Which is actually needed quite a lot
>>51299863
give an example of a trade job where the movement is too complicated.
>>51300354
>>I imagine it's relatively trivial to write a program that can program other programs.
Turing would like to have a word with you.
>>51300386
yes they can. Pic related was not designed by a human.
>>51300422
Anything in construction, for now.
>robot gives granny cyanide pills instead of old person pills
No thanks buddy, unless you want to kill grannies. Is that what you want?
>>51299384
Why can't robots take care of themselves?
>>51300471
Wasn't saying that they can't create something but they can't think outside of their programming unlike a person could do.
>>51300503
Pharmacies don't have cyanide pills.
>>51300482
Can't 3D printers automate most construction?
>>51300503
Yes it is. Our population is more than high enough and unemployed old are a drain on society. Much like myself
>>51298790
>tfw gf will be out of a job
>>51300519
I imagine a programmer robot would function a lot like a chat bot. You'd teach it basic concepts, and as it programmed more and more it would become familiar with which libraries and functions accomplished what and how, exactly the way a human would program.
Then what happens when we get quantum computers that are programming that write all possible combinations of code at once then select the most efficient?
>>51298790
what about dealing with people in real time? not just prescriptions, but buying things over the counter as well? advice would need to be given and it would all depend on their current medications/past medical history. You'd need a person who can actually reply to queries and take into account the patient's information to make an informed decision in a matter of seconds, something which won't be consistent with the non-tech-savvy majority.
What you're asking for is a robot dispenser, which already exist...
>>51300519
and how exactly do you determine what is outside their programming?
>>51300576
how do you teach a robot basic concepts?
>>Then what happens when we get quantum computers that are programming that write all possible combinations of code at once then select the most efficient?
Quantum computers are not infinitely fast. And if we have quantum computers, then who programs the quantum computers?
Essentially you are trying to solve the halting problem, which is not trivial.
>>51298790
Who is stocking the robots shelves? It's more of a distributer. It could be applied to any shop.
>>51300354
>I imagine it's relatively trivial to write a program that can program other programs.
LOOK AT HIM! LOOK AT HIM AND LAUGH!
Worked in a pharmacy (not a chain, but an independent) people always come in to ask questions and they love it when we take the time for them to understand what they're taking why they're taking it.
Thank us for spending time with them since the chains don't at all
We have caught mistakes made by doctors even through digital prescriptions
This pharmacist pushes for natural/herbal remedies
Helps certain customers with pricing since insurances are assholes
So many things a robot can't replace
Also I don't want to be a pharmacist because dealing with these people is a pain if your true passion isn't to help them but just make money
>>51300971
Also some people come into ask pharmacists questions about medical problems before the doctor and usually they get it resolved without a script or a doctors visit
>>51299605
>the pharmacist tell me how I should take it, when...
That never happens. The prescribing doctor types the dose instructions on their computer and it gets automatically printed on the label the pharmacist sticks to the drugs. The pharmacist is literally a human vending machine.
>>51301027
That's not how it works pharmacists/techs have to verify what the doctor said and believe it or not we have to call back because the doctor made a mistake with the dosing or instructions
>>51300846
>and how exactly do you determine what is outside their programming?
Was it programmed to do X? Really not that hard
>>51301077
There's no "verification" the pharmacist can do that can't be automated.
>>51298790
how would a robot read doctors handwriting on the prescription?
if pharmacies were shut down where would you be able to go to buy Echinacea drops to poison children with?
>>513011241
And you would be so certain because? You work in a pharmacy? You've gotten prescriptions before?
Fucking please yes, I wait a good 20 minutes for my crazy pills when I'm the only one in the fucking store.
>>51299384
>So you didn't really change anything all that much.
Except time savings, greater accuracy, efficiency, cost savings etc etc. Why else do we bother with robots in the first place? Why do you think automated plants are so popular?
>>51301027
What? Yes, it does. Source: me, as it happens every time I buy my sleep medication. Sure, instructions are printed but they do well to double-check; it's not like it's rare for people to not read.
Where would you happen to live?
>>51298790
Dude pharmacists go to votech for like six months, what the fuck are you thinking?
>>51299384
$100K a year to the technician that services every robot in all the pharmacies in your state, perhaps even country.
>>51299264
>a rebirth of the arts and philosophy?
Everyone becomes a disgusting welfare hedonist - what great birth in arts and philosophy will that produce?
You idealise the human potential too much at the cost of reality. We do not live in conditions that favour a rennaisance or Golden age as they once did so many centuries ago.
>>51301199
>why do you think automated plants are so popular?
Robots can't sue you
>>51299561
Bullshit, I get a prescription from my doctor, my doctor explains the ins and outs of the meds, I go the the chemist, give them the slip, and they give me the pills.
Replace the prescription with a qr code and the chemist with a room sized vending machine and you're good.
>>51299772
although possible until there is a way for robotics to function without concern of technicians and expensive parts, this wont be happening until the end of our lifetime i believe
>>51301209
There is a big difference between a pharmacy tech and a pharmacist. Pharmacy tech's get an associates, and do the Pharmacists bidding. The Pharmacist has a doctorate, and has usually been to school for a 4 year bachelors, then 4 years of pharmacy school. It is possible to get lab requirements to get into pharmacy school without a bachelors, but is generally not recommended because of the competitive nature of pharmacy school admissions.
>>51300570
your gf (good friend) will be out of the job?
My bf (best friend) will be out of the job too..
>>51301124
pharmacists and doctors already have expert systems to automatically detect drug interactions and things, but they just aid and not replace them
either way any changes to the medical system are glacially slow on top of decades of legislation and FDA approval
What is this shit, Pharmacists don't just dole out drugs.
Pharmacists work with clients to update prescriptions, will not authorize prescriptions if they feel it is fake (VERY IMPORTANT), screen clients for medical issues and update them on how to properly medicate.
Yes, you can program a robot to do prescriptions, you could do it with a vending machine 10 years ago. The reason we don't, is because people who rely on their medication cant afford to wait a week for a robot to be repaired while a pharmacist is easily replaced by another pharmacist. Not to mention all the other duties a pharmacist has.
Furthermore, you have to consider the social cost of a bunch of people with specialized non-transferable industry skills that are now unemployed with student loans.
>>51301114
Programs can often exhibit behavior that wasn't programed into them. Most of the time we call this behavior a bug.
The program that made the robot in
>>51300471
Wasn't programmed to make that design, it is simply what resulted
>>51300626
>have company hosted website with information on all drugs
>ask robot question, it reads the answer off html server with text to voice
seriously, what all questions do you think you have that couldnt be documented? its always as simple as effects in the end
I really don't see how a robot can act as a qualified opinion to insurance companies. The whole reason you have a pharmacist is to prevent insurance fraud and not have script kiddies selling drugs.
pharmacists don't get educated or paid to "put pills in a bottle"
>>51301450
Yes but it was programmed to make a design. It still cannot function outside of that perimeter.
>>51301494
yeah they get paid to chat with their coworkers and waste my time
the future will be twice as bright for me when pharmacists, waiters/cashiers, and pretty much every service is replaced by much more efficient robots
>>51301279
You are naive then. Robots are getting cheaper and technicians aren't needed as often as you would think. Do vending machines have technicians standing by them all the time? Again, industrial robots are very reliable.
Second, we already have robots capable of doing basic repairs in the lab. Self reconfiguring modular robots are an example of this.
>>51301267
You may not use them as a resource but others do. That's what they're trained for. They know all about the drugs people are getting scripts for. They can help anyone who asks.
>>51301560
>the future will be twice as bright for me
pill addicts really don't get anywhere in life
so not really
>>51301560
the trend is the opposite though, RPh are getting more responsibilities to ease the healthcare strain, and given that the pharmacy immunization program was a massive success they'll probably end up closer to a PA in the future like other countries have done
>>51301567
In my country that's what doctors are for, but I guess it makes sense to have someone to specialize in just drugs and their affects.
Work out something new every day.
>>51300122
That's what people don't get. An automated tower? Son, we're going to have automated planes with their own radar that don't need a tower.
>>51301563
Not that guy, but I would like to interject for a moment and say that vending machines still need to be filled and maintained, and there's no reason to think that those basic requirements wouldn't apply to the "Walgreens Autobot 2000". There's also no reason to think that they'd be any safer than people in terms of abuse, since people would just figure out how to hack into them and fill bogus prescriptions to get free drugs. Maybe you think automated pharmacies are a good idea, but there's really not enough reasons to dump real pharmacists and pharmacy technicians.
>>51301595
>method of administration addicts
Also, what's "get anywhere in life"?
>>51301538
ah, but how can you be so sure it will make a design? Perhaps it will encounter an error that causes it to freeze and not make a design.
And why not just make a program that can do anything a person can?
>>51300532
No, and your an idiot.
>>51301560
They say "be the change you want to see in the world"
And here's you
>>51300626
A robot connected to the internet would actually be far better at that then a pharmacist.
>>51301685
While they will need to be filled and maintained(for now), this does not necessarily make robot pharmacists unprofitable to operate. Machine loader certainly requires less skill than pharmacist
The fact thaf current vending machines are loaded and maintained by people does not imply that this will be the case in the future.
For one, solving the problem of grasping would allow robots to load themselves.
As far as hacking goes, ATMs are subject to being hacked and in fact have been hacked, yet we still use them.
>>51301937
lol voting machines in Florida. The touchscreens would lose calibration and cause people to vote for the wrong candidate, and these suckers are still in use.
What the fuck do pharmacists even do?
Seems to me they're glorified check out chicks that make you wait 10 minutes
1. Steal/ forge some granny's prescription
2. Get decked out with OxyContin and benzos
3. Dark web market
???
PROFIT
thanks, mr robot
>>51302159
do you even google?
Prepares medications by reviewing and interpreting physician orders; detecting therapeutic incompatibilities. Dispenses medications by compounding, packaging, and labeling pharmaceuticals. Controls medications by monitoring drug therapies; advising interventions.
also
While responsibilities vary among the different areas of pharmacy practice, the bottom line is that pharmacists help patients get well. Pharmacist responsibilities include a range of care for patients, from dispensing medications to monitoring patient health and progress to maximize their response to the medication. Pharmacists also educate consumers and patients on the use of prescriptions and over-the-counter medications, and advise physicians, nurses, and other health professionals on drug decisions. Pharmacists also provide expertise about the composition of drugs, including their chemical, biological, and physical properties and their manufacture and use. They ensure drug purity and strength and make sure that drugs do not interact in a harmful way. Pharmacists are drug experts ultimately concerned about their patients' health and wellness.
and...
1) Assay radiopharmaceuticals, verify rates of disintegration, and calculate the volume required to produce the desired results, to ensure proper dosages.
2) Manage pharmacy operations, hiring and supervising staff, performing administrative duties, and buying and selling non-pharmaceutical merchandise.
3) Work in hospitals, clinics, or for HMOs, dispensing prescriptions, serving as a medical team consultants, or specializing in specific drug therapy areas such as oncology or nuclear pharmacotherapy.
4) Assess the identity, strength and purity of medications.
5) Teach pharmacy students serving as interns in preparation for their graduation or licensure.
6) Publish educational information for other pharmacists, doctors, and/or patients.
all of this is from the first page of a google search on "pharmacists duties"
I like talking to my pharmacist.
>work for large healthcare company
>transition to CPOE (computerized provider order entry) - no more handwritten orders from physicians. drastically cuts down on clarifications
>dosing and interaction rules governed by the computer system
>mfw all hospital pharmacists do nowadays is sit at the computer and spam Enter to approve physician orders
>>51302100
>>51302100
And when was the last time you had to recalibrate the touch screen on your smartphone?
>>51301712
The difference is a human would be able to fix the problem with creative thought. A program will only do what it's told and that's that.
Yes let's create an AI
>>51302210
1.Forge an ATM card
2.????
3. FREE MONEY!
>>51302210
You realise that human chemists don't check your ID either.
I've had FEMALES pick up my prescription for me, and I have a masculine name
>>51298790
>Why hasn't this happened yet?
because that would do disastrous things to the economy
sure, businesses would save money on labor costs, but they'd lose business pretty quickly due to rising unemployment rates
unskilled labor is a huge section of the job market
Pharmacist here. People often confuse the functions of techs with pharmacists.
Techs:
>collect pills
>count pills, stick label on pills
>enter scripts into the computer
>compound sometimes
>billing sometimes
>work register
>answer phone
Pharmacists:
>verify medications/doses against a patient's profile, calling the doctor if necessary
>double check the vials the techs hand you
>handle complicated insurance issues
>answer medical questions, requests from hospitals for med profiles, transfers from other pharmacies
>do the work of the techs that isn't getting done
Basically, yeah, i believe that techs can be replaced by robots. Some pharmacies even have machines that auto count and fill vials of common meds. The problem is that the techs salary is small in comparison to other costs and it isn't economically viable to replace them, as well as the fact that the technology to open boxes and unscrew lids isn't out there yet. Or if it is it would take too much space.
>>51302536
>Counting pills
Wait, what?
But whenever I get medicines they're always in blister packs or or come in bottles with those little plastic seals on them.
>>51302378
Never, but my smart phone is not a voting machine that was rushed into service in the year 2000 with software that used bitmap images in order to display information...
The tech probably works great now, but in 2000 it was way to early.
>>51302589
Are you in the US? I would say steroids commonly come in blister packs but that's about it in terms of oral solid dosages. And yes, sometimes we get lucky and a 30 day supply of a more common drug we have in a manufacturer bottle with 30 pills, but I would say the majority of the time we repackage drugs in the amber vials
>>51298790
Pharmacist aren't medicine clerks. They're scientists who develop methods that maximize absorption of a given medicinal treatment.
>>51302395
So why do you need creative thought to not make a design? My argument is that "function outside of it's programming" is meaningless. We cannot figure out what is outside of a program's functioning before we run the program(although we can exclude the impossible, IE computing uncomputable things).
>>51302639
You clearly don't understand the point I am trying to make. A robot/program will not be able to solve complex problems that require creative thought. Plus you can indeed figure what is outside of a programs function by looking at the code.
