Any webdevs here? Where do you go after learning HTML, CSS, JS and some PHP?
What are the most essential frameworks to use these days for websites? Pic obviously related.
>>45597828
Something people will actually hire you for knowing, like ASP .NET MVC, SQL Server and Entity Framework
>>45597845
fuck off microsoft shill
>>45597853
lol poorfag java student thinks hes going to have a career
>>45597845
Who the fuck runs servers on Windows or Macs?
>>45597828
>not gaining general programming skill vs web development
why waste your time on web dev when you could be an internet janitor.
I started using Laravel (PHP Framework) a couple months ago. I quite like it. It's a good starter for MVC.
>>45597868
>be manager at software firm
>see resume
>technical skills:
>"general programming"
into the trash it goes
>>45597864
>Who the fuck runs servers on Windows or Macs?
a lot of enterprise web applications run on windows servers
if you didn't know that you're a child
>>45597861
I'm making 65k out of college with a Java background.
>>45597886
sixty five thousand american dollaroos
let me guess working 9-5 in a city that prevents your salary from actually turning out to be a livable wage
i take it your savings account has been stagnant since starting too
>sixty five whole thousand dollarooos americano incorporated
>>45597864
>Implying a lot of sites aren't hosted through IIS.
Also stop being asshats and offer some legitimate advice. Most native applications are being replaced by web applications. There is nothing wrong with web development.
>java
>exception thrown
>netbeans crashes
>boss walks bye
>sees eclipse and netbeans IDEs on everyones computers
>thinks his entire department is running windows 95
where as
>windows developers
>visual studio 2013
>bitches and hoes integrated into GUI
>TFS literally sucks your dick while you compile
when will you java fags learn
>>45597868
OP here. I have an internship at a company right now working with Java (Eclipse Plugin Development) and I am a little frustrated that my project-manager is only interested in "visible" results. You can spend 2 weeks optimizing your code, but when at the end there are little visible changes from the user perspective, you won't get any credit at all. Meanwhile front-end guys moving a <div> into a better looking position just have to open the browser and show the result.
This is the reason I want to work in front end.
>>45597913
>TFS literally sucks your dick while you compile
>>45597896
Where do you live where you make 65k that isn't a livable wage
>>45597924
vancouver
los angeles
toronto
new york city
maine
>$1500 rent for 1 bedroom to get a 1 hour commute to work every morning
>>45597922
>OP here. I have an internship at a company right now working with Java (Eclipse Plugin Development) and I am a little frustrated that my project-manager is only interested in "visible" results. You can spend 2 weeks optimizing your code, but when at the end there are little visible changes from the user perspective, you won't get any credit at all. Meanwhile front-end guys moving a <div> into a better looking position just have to open the browser and show the result.
>This is the reason I want to work in front end.
full stack developers usually make the most money and get most of the bitches
>javascript and css changes
>c# changes
>transact-sql changes
>drink coffee
>collect money
>???
>pussy
>>45597946
>vancouver
>los angeles
>toronto
>new york city
>maine
I'm assuming you can't read? I said where do YOU live where you make 65k that isn't livable wage. Where the hell have you ever seen a software development job in NYC that pays sub 80k?
>>45597973
i listed cities in which 65k is not a livable wage
maybe you should make your questions a little more comprehensive if you want a less generic answer
>typical java fags don't understand generics
>>45597828
Full time webdev using all of those here:
It is such a wild industry. It ranges from working in someone's basement for less than minimum wage to working in some of the top corporations in the world. If you know more specific or niche technologies you can shorten that gap and get somewhere really good, but knowing general webdev technologies can make you fairly versatile.
I am a Jr. Dev at a fairly small Web dev company that is now focusing on making web apps for small companies. 37k CAD/year isn't bad and coming out of college and in a city where i bank about 1/3 of that is pretty good.
>>45597922
Your PM is a retard. If he's representative of all the other PMs then your code base is probably overflowing with horseshit.
It might be a good idea to move into front end work at your current company but that might not hold elsewhere.
>>45597992
>i listed cities in which 65k is not a livable wage
That's not what I asked though. I asked where do you live where you make 65k that isnt a livable wage? I don't know of a single college-level job in any of those cities that pays under livable wage. Fuck off with your hypotheticals
>>45597992
>>45598014
>That's not what I asked though
What you're asking now isn't what you originally asked for either
So I don't know what the fuck you're raving on about
>>45597922
Try working for a company where every single minute you work has to be accounted for, and more than 10 minutes off on something starts to get some big questions asked. No time allowed for optimization, front end or back end. You simply get things done on time, shitty or now.
That is worse.
>>45597828
JS: learn Angular.js, it's the most mature client-side framework out there right now (it pays really well, too). You'll also need to at least have done a couple Todo List apps once in your life. Be acquainted with Backbone, Underscore, know how to write a jQuery plugin, tweak a carousel/slider's behavior, know how to a use the prototype. Ionic (an Angular mobile framework built on Cordova) is pretty cool. You might also want to look into Node.js, at least a build tool.
HTML: mess around with HTML5 elements. There are a lot of new<input />types, which are being leveraged by mobile development frameworks.
CSS: Learn responsive design and the ways you can use CSS3 to enhance UI. Bootstrap is becoming a thing of the past, but it's always good to know what .col-md-6 means when you're working on BS stuff. Let me save you months of bullshit: learn SASS.
PHP: Learn how servers and APIs work. This means you'll need to learn Apache or Nginx. Set up a few LAMP stacks on Digital Ocean or some cheap hosting. Learn that shit by heart, it's what separates the pros from the (ever growing population) amateurs. Be able to spin up a REST API with your tool of choice. Know MVC. PHP isn't going anywhere (Composer is pretty slick), but it's rare to hear about those developers making serious coin. .NET is where the money is, and you'll keep your sanity when C# saves you from your own bad habits. You can also use C# for other stuff. LINQ is a thing of beauty.
Getting a job isn't hard: the bar of entry is on the floor for most tech cities.
Web development isn't just a job, it's a lifestyle.
>>45598029
>What you're asking now isn't what you originally asked for either
>>45597924
>"Where do you live where you make 65k that isn't a livable wage"
That's the only question I've ever asked you. It's not my fault you're a faggot that can't read
>>45598048
>Web development isn't just a job, it's a lifestyle.
what does this mean
>>45598048
>JS: learn Angular.js
Less than 1% of websites use Angular
>HTML: mess around with HTML5 elements
Useless. Everything is basically just a <div> anyway. If 90% of every element on your page isn't a <div> with a responsive width class, you're fucking up
>PHP: Learn how servers and APIs work
I have no problems with this
>Web development isn't just a job, it's a lifestyle.
No, its a job. Unless you're one of those cunts that comes to the office with a geeky funny programming joke on his tshirt and constantly spews memes all day trying to be funny.
>>45598031
>Not getting up and going for a walk outside and a coffee.
>Not dicking around on 4chan and Youtube in the server room.
>Not segregating yourself from the everyday staff network, bypassing the sonicwall entirely and going straight to the fibre line.
Being a codemonkey sounds like absolute shit, to the point where I've even stood up for you fags before. Someone comes to me requesting "a little change" on one of our websites, they often don't realize how much work you guys are going to have to do.
>>45598052
>Where do you live where you make 65k that isn't a livable wage
Is completely different from
>"Where do you live where you make 65k that isn't a livable wage AS A SOFTWARE DEVELOPER"
Notice how the last four words you arrogant cunt
>>45597992
maine?
>>45598048
So C# and dotnet make serious coin in the bay area too?
I haven't seen many startups using it.
>>45598048
thanks m8. that was helpful
>>45598083
My day
>hey anon such and such problem is occurring in that web application you built for that client
>okay i'll go to the controller that controls that functionality and see whats up
>1 minute later
>okay fixed
Other days
>hey anon here is a large project we just greenlit we need to get started
>okay
>6 months later
>here you go lets QA for another 4 months
>thanks anon we just made a shit load of money from this stupid faggot client p.s. go tell the sysadmin hes a gay fag too
>>45598108
>I haven't seen many startups using it.
I have seen literally 75% of startups using .NET in the greater toronto area
>>45598083
Of everything on that image, the worse isn't even listed:
Business graduates. Worse than project managers. Had one once that listed a task to be done as 'Add provinces'. The work was expected to take 5 minutes, but required extensive reworking of the whole system. 20 hours later, they are saying 'wtf, why did it take so long?' meanwhile it required changing a lot of stuff, and event that stuff was legacy because the manager refused to put any budget into cleaning up code.
>>45598138
75% of startups fail, I wonder if these stats are related..
>>45598179
25% of Java developers are raging homosexuals, I wonder if these stats are related
>>45598127
Never leave that place, sounds like you have it made.
All of our staff honestly think you guys sit there dragging and dropping, and bucket filling things as if you developed in mspaint.
>>45598169
Yep. The amount of "Hey, can we just move this over here", even after weeks of design confirmation and signatures on print-outs before it even touched the developers desk, never ceases to amaze me.
>>45598108
>>45598138
>>45598179
I like .NET, it does make things faster, but hipster startup-people can't write ASP.NET applications on their Macs.
>>45598192
I'm a sysadmin, so I bet they are
>>45597845
This. This. This.
We have "software architects" who know nothing beyond OP's and this'.
>>45598138
As someone who lives not in Toronto but nearby, these start ups are because the province is pushing greatly for 'entrepreneurs'. They want as many young people to make businesses as possible, especially out of college/university with access to what was only taught in school.
With programs like MSDNAA we get .NET shoved down our throats through school. Considering these kind of development environments cost most money, they take the budget of any startup.
>>45598169
I would have sarcastically said I took so long because I purposefully wasted my time for literally no reason only to upset my superiors
>>45598208
>but hipster startup-people can't write ASP.NET applications on their Macs.
Which is exactly why hipster fags don't write ASP .NET applications? Only sex demons and cool kids write C#
>>45598223
>Considering these kind of development environments cost most money, they take the budget of any startup.
The guy I work for is a 28 year old millionaire. He made his millions by developing a web application used by multiple hospitals and organizations in the health sector in ASP .NET. He started with nothing and now has 15 full-time employees
/g/, what can I do to convince my boss that SharePoint work is not worth pursuing? Keep in mind we've already lost our asses off on 4 previous SharePoint projects in the last 2 years and we don't have the manpower to maintain our own goddamn SharePoint intranet.
>>45598108
If you want to work at a startup, go right ahead. Stress becomes a reality in this industry, those places will work you till you figure out you want a real life. The beer kegs in-house are to make sure you're there all night.
There are better options. Corporate work can be a good challenge to build your skillset, agencies are a good option if you're looking for short-term work and maybe doing PSD-to-HTML conversions. For me, contract work is where it's at: name your own rates and get shit done on your own terms. Avoid direct client stuff unless they know exactly what they want and have a lot of money to throw around.
Work those LinkedIn profiles and you'll be swimming in job offers. Make sure you have a GitHub account. Learn Git if you plan to work with teams and want to preserve your code. Be acquainted with the new hotness buzzwords and know what's going on in the industry.
>>45598223
>>45598253
Not to mention Microsoft BizSpark program. 3 years of free Microsoft software is more than enough to make a startup work... if it didn't take of in 3 years, it never will.
>>45598259
>Keep in mind we've already lost our asses off on 4 previous SharePoint projects in the last 2 years and we don't have the manpower to maintain our own goddamn SharePoint intranet.
If this sort of thing happened and he still insists on using SharePoint, find a new boss
This guy is an idiot
>>45598306
>Not to mention Microsoft BizSpark program. 3 years of free Microsoft software is more than enough to make a startup work... if it didn't take of in 3 years, it never will.
Also Visual Studio Community edition is free for your company if you have under $1 million in revenue
>>45598208
Wrong. Now, they have no excuse.
Microsoft just open-sourced .NET.
>>45598314
But everyone keeps insisting there's tons of money in SharePoint since lots of our mega million oil&gas scada customers use it. Surely they'd part with some money for us to monkey around on their SharePoint sites!?
>>45598314
>using SharePoint
The bigger problem is he insists on DEPLOYING SharePoint to small customers and then selling custom configuration and integrations.
This is my second reply to you btw
>>45598347
>But everyone keeps insisting there's tons of money in SharePoint
Its a lot easier to pay Microsoft to do shit for you when you have billions
When you don't have billions and your projects & clients are more diverse, developing in-house tends to be the way to go
Pissing money away on SharePoint even after it has continually failed is a really, really poor decision
Tell your boss hes killing the company, then tell your best client how much you make and see if you can get poached
>>45598341
But Microsoft is like a completely new world, man. Is learning all those new frameworks, which will surely take well over 2 years, worth it?
>>45598386
>But Microsoft is like a completely new world
What?
Most of the developers that started out on ASP had no problem transitioning to ASP .NET, and WebForms
Then when ASP .NET MVC rolled around they were the first to jump on the enterprise train and now they're rolling in cash
Microsoft is job security, no doubt
Java is too, but unless you're asian or brown, you're better off going Microsoft (or else you'll just get replaced by someone on an immigrant visa)
>>45598341
Everyone is still figuring out exactly what that means for the industry. C# is an extremely nice language, but Microsoft has quite a ways to go before they earn back the greater software community's trust
>>45598075
Angular makes shit so much easier than using plain JS/jQuery it's not even funny. Even if it is used in less places, finding a place that does use it would be worth the effort for your sanity.
Of course, my only front end experience is with plain JS/jQuery/Angular.
I think that what you were getting at with your post is that there are more important things to learn than javascript frameworks, if you're still starting out, which I don't disagree with.
>>45598404
Nigga, they're going to be major players in open source. They opened up their platform for a reason: competition.
Look up kestrel and you'll figure out what's going on. Joyent is a bunch of progressives with too much drama to rely on. Google will ditch you when it's convenient. MS will always be there.
>>45598259
I was hired out of college as a SharePoint developer without having any experience. While I am now using different frameworks and languages in my daily work I have worked on a good share of projects.
SharePoint sucks. It is trying to solve too many problems and its development team has no concept of what its customers want. It only succeeds at being a company wide document storage service. Other than that, it is not worth the high amount of bugs that arise from that product.
Convince them of how much production and development time it takes to fix the smallest problems. SharePoint has a DOM load time of 3 seconds and a page render time of 6 seconds on average. SharePoint's main Javascript file is the largest items to load and usually takes up the most time for each GET. Pages slow down for webparts added to the page, and for the "app model", you introduce a whole plethora of complexity. There needs to me a separate cross domain site that makes XHR request to get data from SharePoint just so that the app can be displayed in an iframe. I have tried as hard as possible to optimize these calls, but the usual load time is 3-6 seconds on a page. In most use cases the page takes 7-12 seconds to load. Convince your boss that users will not be as productive while working with SharePoint. The developers will be working with very limited resources, Microsoft has no direction, and the users will not be productive.
I am a self loathing SharePoint dev and I drink to fall asleep.
>>45598305
I shouldn't have said startup, I meant companies in general. But it seems like every company here in SF is a startup..
I have a year of c# and .net experience as an intern and I'm looking for a company that I can work for, but they all seem to want java, rails, django.. Which is sad because I love working with C#
That feel when writing Python scripts for 106k a year.
>>45598494
Thanks, that's some nice concrete information. What can I use to argue against "look and feel", office 365 integration, and "intuitive" statements? The o365 part is quite useful, but onedrive blows donkey dick for file sharing.
>>45598475
>ms will always be there
Like silver light, light switch, and infopath?
>>45597861
Literally all the unexciting corporate jobs that pay a living wage use Java, and that's what the majority of programming jobs are. There's also quite a bit of .NET in that realm as well.
>>45598604
I assume that SP was obtained from being a MS partner like most of our clients. For its use case as a document sharing service like O365, then I would say go for it. If your users understand Outlook and Facebook then they can learn about o365 very quickly. Microsoft's new direction is cloud and mobile so there's a lot of skepticism regarding the on premises solution.
>>45598632
I love you.
>>45598590
Mirantis offered me 80 in sf to write python scripts that maintained their openstack stuff.
Definitely not enough money to uproot my life from south Louisiana
>>45598858
They have programming jobs in Louisiana? What are the salaries there on average? Are they in need of more programmers?
>>45598924
Lafayette is close enough to Houston to pick up some work, baton rouge and new Orleans have some with the likes of IBM and ea.
Lafayette is getting 2 new shops in the next year or so, CGI and some other one. Claims of around 500 jobs or such.
Salaries from 40 to 90 give or take but an apartment is 400 to 900 (the REALLY nice ones are 1500).
The jobs aren't hard to find, but nobody is looking for them so everything is word of mouth.
