Almost everybody agrees that SystemD is shit, and that Upstart is shit, and that SysVInit is also pretty shit. SystemD is worse than SysVInit, and it's taking over.
So. Let's say you want to stop SystemD. How do you design your init system?
>>44345366
systemd is good. Easy to configure, starts quickly. The only issue is they have a douchebag dev who refused to fix a bug, and that launched Linus into a tirade. systemd will eventually take over. sysvinit is dead.
>>44345366
>Almost everybody
>the 5 people who samefag in their threads
ok kid.
git clone git://anongit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd myinit
Am I doin it rite?
>>44345366
>How do you design your init system?
You don't.
Use OpenRC and install gentoo.
>>44345584
basically this
then start deleting shit.
all of journald, spin off all the dbus stuff into its own service(which could then be used with logind on bsd systems), etc.
>>44345637
uselessd
Look into uselessd.
Gentoo devs are forking udev since it's becoming part of systemd™.
OpenRC works fine for me, luckily Gentoo is one of my favorite distros so I don't have to fuck around with removing systemd.
>>44345366
>Almost everybody agrees that SystemD is shit,
no, only /g/ and like 3 other people do
if they agree being shit
why everyone who actually matter adopts it?
>>44345717
That's as untrue as the claim you're arguing against.
>>44345574
This.
>>44345366
>Almost everybody agrees that SystemD
1) It's systemd, not SystemD. All lowercase, can you handle that?
2) Almost everybody agrees that systemd is the best alternatives to any other alternative, and much more
>>44345765
>and much more...
shit than OpenRC
>>44345765
>best alternatives to any other alternative
I forgot to take my adderall, my bad
>>44345765
uselessd was here both sides win yay
I don't know anything about the init system and why Systemd is "bad". I just read an article and it basically says it is becoming Windows' svchost.exe which tries to control almost anything. Is this true? It it's not, what articles should I read about the topic so I could understand better the discussion?
>>44345788
nobody is going to adopt OpenRC, even the Gentoo folks consider systemd as a pretty standard option. If you don't like an extensive usage of Linux-only APIs, you're free to use any allegedly pure POSIX *BSD.
>>44345366
nice doobs
>>44345845
>Systemd
systemd, lowercase. Always. Lowercase.
Well, there are a few things about systemd I like, but also some I dislike.
I want a "process babysitter", which can restart dead processes. Makes sense that this be done via cgroups on linux, as systemd does.
udev integration and dbus integration seems distasteful, though. As does needing /usr/lib mounted for bootup. My idea of a good system wouldn't do that.
I'm in two minds about socket activation. I suppose this is the genuine dependency.
>>44345866
Completely irrelevant, but thanks anyway.
>>44345866
sYsTeMd
Nope, I actually like systemd, and it seems like acceptance is even bigger than it was with pulseaudio (which now most distros use without any problems).
Feel free to use something else if you like.
Or develop something else to the point where all the distros that currently use systemd want to pick your solution up...
>>44345653
>uselessd
>not systemicdisease
>>44346240
No, uselessd is seriously a thing. It's systemd stripped down to just the init components.
I steal OpenBSD's init and rc.
>>44346298
Oh wow.
Even so, what's so terribly wrong with sysvinit that everyone's creaming themselves to replace it? I've never encountered an explanation for why there's any actual need for something like systemd/uselessd in the first place.
>>44346370
this. What was so horrible about the old init system?
The only thing i have against systemd is that it feels like its being forced on the users. I bet most users havent had any problems with the old system so why are they being forced to change?
If open source community is so huge, why all this circle-jerk around systemd, why not just make a functional init system?
>>44346421
>why not just make a functional init system?
You mean the one we've had for 40 years without any real issues?
>>44346298
holy shit that website though. now thats awesome. anyone know whos behind it?
One of the reasons I use Arch is because it has had systemd by default for a long time now. If any distro knows about systemd's flaws in the real world, it's Arch.
>>44346370
Well, for services that I'm in charge of the availability of, I often run them using some or other supervisor process that will restart the daemons if they crash.
Then you have to junk the distro's startup script and write and maintain your own for the process babysitter and such. Probably make for a neater system rolling that shit into init.
>Almost everybody agrees that SystemD is shit
Ugh. Where the fuck is my goddamn DO NOT REPLY TO PAID MICROSOFT TROLLS/REPORT ALL PAID MICROSOFT TROLLS sticky, mods?
This is the biggest concentrated paid viral marketing raid on 4chan ever and no one does shit.
Fuck off, Microsoft. You've lost.
>>44345866
S Y S T E M D
Y
S
T
E
M
D
>>44345366
If systemd is shit, then why is it the case that all non-autistic distros switched to it?
>>44346471
This. I know. When will microsoft learn their init system is shit.
>>44345519
>"a" douchebag dev
That whole project is a douchebag magnet. Kay Sievers is but the apprentice to Lennart Poettering's mastery of the douche arts.
>>44346470
Sounds like a good way to go if you have the time and want the best results.
>>44346471
>If you aren't in favor of systemd, you are a Microsoft shill
What the fuck am I reading? Metashilling?
>>44346487
I dont think systemd is shit. Im sure its very useful to people use it. I think the fact that im being forced to use it in most distros is shit. Why the hell do i need a bloated init system with a web server when I barely even use it.
>>44346531
>What the fuck am I reading?
The truth.
>>44346546
>there is no alternative to systemd other than windows
>this is "the truth"
Just fuck off already
>>44346370
>>44346412
>what's so terribly wrong with sysvinit
Like X11, it was designed around a lot of requirements that are no longer particularly relevant. And (again like X11) the workarounds it uses to meet modern-day requirements are pretty hackish.
>>44346370
>>44346412
Sysvinit does not manage dependencies. For a system administrator who manages a small network, it's easy to tune your init scripts to work as you need.
If you're a general purpose distro maintainer, your init scripts need to handle a huge range of likely use cases with a high chance of race conditions happening. These distro maintainers have to manually handle such race conditions and dependency issues. The distro maintainers write their scripts in the (Ba)sh language which isn't the most ideal language to deal with this complex issue. The result are init scripts that are exceedingly complex to comprehend, maintain and extend.
One other thing is process monitoring. If a service had crashed, it will remained crashed until the administrator manually restarts the system.
Systemd changes all of this. System administrators only need to specify the dependencies for each service. Systemd will manage service dependencies and will also monitor the processes of if one dies, it'll be restarted automatically.
>>44346613
He's right though. Linux was never pure. It's a bloated piece of shit, and GNU was never about the Unix philosophy. Even BSD is a bloated piece of shit. "MUH POSIX" but POSIX is fucking horrible too.
Go use inferno or plan 9 if you want something pure. Because GNU/Linux never was, and never will be. Same thing with *BSD.
>>44346621
So writing elegent modern source code requires a billion lines of code
>>44346613
I'm happy to stay around if you continue to setup strawmen like that
>>44346679
it's less than 250,000 lines of code actually. and that's for everything, including udev.
>>44346679
>>44346694
Oh and ironically if you want to talk about lines of code like a dumbfuck, tearing systemd apart would make it more lines of code and fall victim to code reuse.
People like you are so dumb.
>>44346679
Whoa, chill out, Anon. I'm just stating the problem. Definitely not trying to claim that systemd is the best solution (or even a good solution).
>>44346694
Thats actually not too bad I thought it was more. So I guess its about the same size as gcc or clang. It doesnt seem like they have any desire to keep it small though. Who knows it could grow to a million eventually.
>>44345366
>binary log format
>inbuilt udev
>developers are obstinate, elitist pricks
I'd rather use sysvinit for another 10 years than use this piece of shit.
>>44346723
>optional
>implying you used another device manager, and it's usable without systemd anyways (look at gentoo's ebuild)
>so is linus
>>44346712
Yes you're explanation was helpful in making me understand why we need a new init system. Thank you. I didnt mean to question you particularly.
>>44346711
and I think this is the guy who needs to chill out I'm just asking a couple questions about the init system and he's calling me a dumbfuck.
>>44346687
>muh strawmen
You are the most intellectually dishonest person on 4chan. Let's review:
It started here:>>44346471
>Almost everybody agrees that SystemD is shit
>Ugh. Where the fuck is my goddamn DO NOT REPLY TO PAID MICROSOFT TROLLS/REPORT ALL PAID MICROSOFT TROLLS
>This is the biggest concentrated paid viral marketing raid on 4chan ever and no one does shit.
tl;dr, if you think systemd is shit, for whatever reason, you are a PAID MICROSOFT SHILL
^This is a textbook strawman argument. The entire post.
So then this:>>44346531
>What the fuck am I reading? Metashilling?
Then >>44346546
>The truth
So a strawman arguement you set up is now "the truth". When I called you on that bullshit >>44346613, you tried to invert reality by claiming that I had used a strawman instead of you. >>44346687
You could not possibly shill harder.
>>44346443
You mean like systemd is?
>>44347737
>systemd has been around for 40 years
>Hey /g/, I know nothing about the topic, but I'll shitpost in favor of systemd anyhow
>>44346801
>there is no alternative to systemd other than windows
This is the strawman brah.
>>44347859
That's what I've been saying the whole time, "brah". Fucking idiot.
Explain how that statement is any different from this post >>44346471, which boils down exactly to that illogic.
>People say systemd is shit
>Obviously, they're Microsoft trolls
That's exactly what the fucking post says, unless you want to waste more time arguing semantics. And if you don't, explain the difference in meaning, since you claim there is one.
>>44345366
I like most of Systemd's features, but it has some rough edges.
1. Semi broken NTP update at startup. You actually can't reliably know when its NTP client is going to correct the system time. So at the first few stages of the boot your system time will be wrong. No, the depends on shit doesn't work.
2. Journalctl . Seriously, rolling kernel dmesg into Journalctl? Try flushing the log manually (embedded system or trying to get some free space) and see how far you get .People online says just change the blahblahblah option in journalctl config file to 10MB or something- the definition of head in ass.
3. A related issue is when you try to open kernel log without any filter and have Journalctl comes to a grinding halt, if your log file is huge.
And these are just some of the issues I saw this week. They are not major problems, but definitely an annoyance.
>>44347859
>brah
Into the trash it goes
>>44348008
My brother seems frustrated. I detect a hint of anger. Brother, are you angry?
>>44348054
>What is the GIGO rule?
Talk like a double-digit IQ hipster, expect to be treated like one, BRAH
>>44346647
>Systemd changes all of this. System administrators only need to specify the dependencies for each service. Systemd will manage service dependencies and will also monitor the processes of if one dies, it'll be restarted automatically.
That would be fucking amazing if that's all it did.
But systemd has so many other things embedded in it (along with the absolute worst logging system possible) that it ruins it. Plus, systemd is not portable, which is kind of evil.
>>44349954
http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/
systemd is great
>>44345366
I don't. I just complain endlessly on forums and magically hope that systemd ceases to exist.
>>44349954
>along with the absolute worst logging system possible
If you actually used journald you'd realize that it's better. Not even taking advantage of all of the data you can specify it to log along side certain processes.
You're not going to take anything out of systemd because Gnome, KDE, and many other projects find the utilities and interfaces useful. systemd-nspawn, power management (one less thing to reinvent for DEs and such) etc
>>44345366
I'd use LaunchD.
It's there, it's free (as in freedom) and it's the best init daemon currently going around.
>>44350650
it's launchd, and enjoy your XML dipshit.
>>44350660
>not just forking it and using plaintext .conf files
XML is the only thing holding it back.
>it's launchd
I'm sorry I offended your OCD there m8.
>>44345366
I'm working on my own init. I'm sure it'll all be done within a year. It'll be the correctly designed init.
