>Pressure is rising on Apple, Google and other technology companies to allow law enforcement and intelligence agencies access to encrypted phones and other devices.
>In the wake of the coordinated terrorist attacks on Paris, CIA Director John Brennan, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and other critics are amplifying their arguments against Silicon Valley.
>The rise of commercial encryption technology, they say, risks shielding terrorists from surveillance — raising the bar for law enforcement to thwart future attacks.
“We in many respects have gone blind as a result of the commercialization and the selling of devices that cannot be accessed either by the manufacturer or, more importantly, by us in law enforcement, even equipped with the search warrants and judicial authority,” New York City Police Commissioner William Bratton said Sunday on “Face the Nation.”
>Some lawmakers have revived calls for congressionally mandated access to devices.
>“In the Senate Armed Services, we’re going to have hearings on it and we’re going to have legislation,” Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), who chairs the committee, told reporters on Tuesday, calling the status quo “unacceptable.”
>The terrorists who more than 120 people in Paris last Friday were able to plan their strikes under the noses of French and Belgian authorities. Senior European counterterrorism officials, speaking anonymously, told The New York Times that they believed the attackers used some form of encrypted device to communicate.
>Brennan called the attacks a “wake-up call,” while Feinstein, a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee who represents Silicon Valley, said in an interview Monday with MSNBC that it’s a “big problem” if tech firms “create a product that allows evil monsters to communicate in this way.”
You support this, right /g/? I mean, you're not a terrorist are you?
Paris attackers used PlayStation 4 to communicate.
Leave our phones alone.
>>51405093
You're attacking a problem from the wrong angle anon.
Being able to spy on some users to "Prevent" some terrorism is just moronic, you need to educate your kids to know what's better, so they grow up wronly, then offer a solution to the parties involved, and if that doesn't work then you go to their place and erradicate them, you assume the casualties and kills on your side but you erased the problem from its root.
The thing is that goverment want more control over people putting "terrorism" as an excuse. They just want more control at all costs.
>>51405154
>The thing is that goverment want more control over people putting "terrorism" as an excuse. They just want more control at all costs.
This. The government never lets a good tragedy go to waste when it comes to grabbing power.
>>51405093
>Implying the security services didn't have the conversations of the Paris attackers stored somewhere on their servers.
>Implying they have the resources to sort through all the crap they harvest.
>Implying the 'security services' aren't just security theatre services, really serving as a jobs program.
>Implying the 'ban encryption' fad isn't just a gov vs silicon valley dick waving contest in the US, and an effort to suck up to Americans in the EU.
>>51405142
This reminds me of the movie Four Lions, the jihadist used a Penguin Club like game to plan their attacks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWyU7RWy0Mk
Isn't this all going to be a moot point once the NSA gets that quantum computer from Jormungand working?
Seems awfully convenient.
Then again all of these devices have some sort of backdoor, especially the chinky mediatek phones and all, so it's more of a pill for people to swallow rather than actually stuff being changed.
>>51405205
>sheep scene
havent laughed that hard in a while
Hey /g/!
It's happening!
We all knew it was coming, anyway.
However, as long as only potential terrorists can get their phones decrypted, I'm fine with it... but we all know that that isn't going to happen.
>>51405297
What the fuck they are going to do? Ban AES, GPG, TOR, SSL?
>one time pad is oldest and ultimate solution used by all quiddea
You know, I think at this point the ultimate in security for covert operations would be to go old-school.
Think about it: governments and national security folk spend all their time breaking encryption and tapping lines, while their knowledge of old-school cryptography and covert operations withers. Meanwhile, terrorists pass along one-time pads and briefcases in alleys, send messages with carrier pidgins...
>>51405236
U watch to much anime
>>51405205
RUBBER DINGHY RAPIDS BRO
>>51405093
I have nothing to hide,they can lurk me anytime they want.
>>51405093
>Feinstein, a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee who represents Silicon Valley, said in an interview Monday with MSNBC that it’s a “big problem” if tech firms “create a product that allows evil monsters to communicate in this way.”
>Feinstein
good goyim, encryption is a good thing. let the terrorists win
>Fenstein
Every single time there's a push to legislate our freedoms away, this bitch is somehow behind it. Fuck her.
>>51405493
Who is that
>>51405646
A US senator who is always behind gun control projects in the Senata
>implying this will stop the attacks
Top keks
Sheeple will believe it.
>>51405793
Anyone with half a brain knows this isn't to stop attacks. They gave the NSA full blown 1984 powers and they still haven't stopped shit. They wont do shit to Ahmed planning kill hundreds of people, but they will get you for daring to go to extremist websites like 4chan.
We don't need to ban encryption. Modern encryption is necessary to keep commerce secure from man in the middle attacks that enable identity theft. Getting rid of encryption allows for a while host of other problems. Beyond that, mass surveillance of the public is unconstitutional, and no amount of security is with giving those rights up.
What we need is not to restrict our tights here, but rather, to send soldiers into Syria and start killing terrorists.
>>51406081
Hi there!
You seem to have made a bit of a mistake in your post. Luckily, the users of 4chan are always willing to help you clear this problem right up! You appear to have used a tripcode when posting, but your identity has nothing at all to do with the conversation! Whoops! You should always remember to stop using your tripcode when the thread it was used for is gone, unless another one is started! Posting with a tripcode when it isn't necessary is fucking retarded. You should always try to post anonymously, unless your identity is absolutely vital to the post that you're making!
Now, there's no need to thank me - I'm just doing my bait to help you get used to the anonymous image-board culture!
>>51405093
This fearmongering is getting more and more impressive. They aren't interested in catching terrorists, they are interested in YOU because in the end the general population is a far bigger threat to the government than some terrorists.
>>51405646
>feinstein
A Jew obviously.
>>51406113
its not syria that is a problem, its you american pigs that are killing our people and steal our oil, i bet 9/11 was done by america itself just to have excuse to 'fight' for your country but all you do is kill other poor nations
>>51406113
holy shit I wrote this months ago and now it's pasta, feels good
>>51405093
>they believed the attackers used some form of encrypted device to communicate.
THEY HAVE BEEN KNOWN SINCE 2000 AND FUCKING ONE TO BE USING END TO END ENCRYPTION
THEY DISTRIBUTE E2E EMAIL, AND MESSAGING CLIENTS, VIA FUCKING PHYSICAL MAGAZINES.
EVEN A PIDGEN PLUGIN THAT E2E ENCRYPTS FACEBOOK OR MSN MESSAGES
THE ONLY WAY TO DESTROY ENCRYPTION IS TO DESTROY THE EDUCATION OF MATH FOR MANY GENERATIONS
I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO SACRIFICE MY SECURITY BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO DO YOUR JOB FINDING THE BADGUYS
Why are the powers that be trying to survey everything it's citizens are doing, are they this terrified of the possibility of being overthrown in a civil war?
>>51406296
Of course its for the OIL, but Syrians are at fault for falling into provocations.
America provides the guns and they use civilians as shields, so plenty of innocents die but those people dont have balls to outright expulse those people from their own lands
>>51405093
Thank fuck I use a Blackberry with BB 10 and it doesn't go under the draconian pressure of US security authorities. Only thing Canadians didn't fuck up.
>>51406359
fuck off that pasta has been around for years (maybe in different wording or format but still), it's nothing new. outta here with that tooting your own horn shit.
>>51405963
>4chan
>extremist
Wew hahahah
pls don't hack me bro.
>>51405093
Aren't both of those companies part of PRISM? So they're collecting the information anyway, just local police aren't allowed to see it.
>>51405963
Akshually you don't know that.
I'm sure we don't hear the half of what they accomplish.
>>51405963
The TSA has never stopped a bombing from happening, but that doesn't mean they haven't prevented one. Same with the NSA.
>Terrorists suicide bomb with homemade bomb and underground human-to-human connections
>SOMEHOW RESTRICTING THE RIGHTS OF REGULAR CIVIL PEOPLE WHO WON'T DO THESE SORT OF THINGS WILL HELP AGAINST TERORRISM
Could someone explain this to me
http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/260596-report-paris-attackers-may-have-used-unencrypted-devices
>Paris attackers sent sms right before attack: "Let's Go"
>All suspects were known to be threats before the attack
So who the hell are these intelligence agencies monitoring if known terrorists can plot attacks over plqintext sms?
Oh well who cares? I'm not a terrorist, then I have nothing to hide. Actually I'm happy that nations worldlwide are worried for terrorists so much, because intelligence agencies will stop caring about piracy.
>>51408108
Dude, one of the main groups that are pushing for this is copyright holders. Do you honestly think that the government won't start punishing pirates once they know everything everyone downloads?
>>51408227
They already know everyone pirates things you dumb shit. The federal government doesn't fucking care.
>>51408251
The government as a whole doesn't, but politicians who have their entire campaign funded by corporations do care about piracy.
>>51408108
The problem with that argument is there's no way to ensure that only you are giving up your privacy. To argue that your privacy doesn't matter is the same as saying journalists' privacy doesn't matter, whistle-blowers' privacy doesn't matter, etc. Do you really want to live in a world where the government can wantonly troll through everyone's communications, travel history, documents, relationships etc?
Thus is of course ignoring the FACT that the efficiency of mass surveillance is utterly zero. Of the last 10 terror attacks, all of the suspects were known to various intelligence agencies. The problem is that they have too much data and can't sort the wheat from the chaff.
>>51407947
It was an inside job, for real, France needed a reason to invade Syria and begin air strikes. just like the United States during the 9/11 event. people will give up rights and everything just to stop big bad terrorist...
>>51408407
But /a/ told me Daiz did it.
>>51408337
bummmmmmpppp :)
>>51408427
Okay that one made me laugh for a sec
>>51405093
>Pressure
I'm so fucking tired of this meme
>Hey Apple give us the encryption keys to your phones
>No
>But we're the government do it or else
>Go fuck yourself. You can't do shit and we don't have to do anything you say. By that way I am going to have records of this conversation
>Chad, send a copy of this bullshit to every one of our press contacts so they can shit on the NSA and tell the people they are trying to ruin our iPhones so they get madder
>Ok f'am
Next day everyone is talking about it because it's apple. You literally just have to tell them to fuck off. They can't legally so shit and if they do illegal shit you call them out and people will listen because your company is huge
>>51408454
Daiz is the cause of 90% of our problems.
>>51408538
>Taneli Vatanen
ei vittu onks tää joku suomihomo vai hä
>>51408557
Is that Finnish? I'm literally only guessing based on suomi. It looks Finnish to me.
>>51408538
It just keeps growing.
>>51408687
And it won't stop growing until we stop him.
>>51405142
what's up with the caps?
>>51408108
I'm not a pirate, you filthy thief, so I don't care.
>>51408588
>>51408557
>>51408538
Oh fuck is that some Finnfag or what
yes it was Finnish
>>51405205
Alot of these peopl do this shit.
They use some obscure online game where they communicate with each other to plan attacks instead of using phones.
>>51408935
It's not a terrible idea really. Nobody is going to notice if some guy playing a Korean CS: GO clone is talking about planting bombs or buying guns.
>>51406452
this tbqh
>>51408479
This
"pressure" is just the stupid excuse companies make up to hide the fact that they willingly traded encryption keys for money
>>51405093
>Ps4s
>some form of encrypted device
Lol
>>51405093
A few dozen 1 megaton sized bombs dropped in the middle east would do a whole lot more to prevent terrorism
>>51405093
>>The rise of commercial encryption technology, they say, risks shielding terrorists from surveillance
But the best encryption technology is literally free
I think that the way governments are power grabbing is really sad. If anybody was really focused on solving the problem they would just go right into the area with these towel wearing assholes and kill everybody and anybody associated with them to completely root out the problem.
There are points in time where i wish people would just solve the problems at hand and not worry about power grabbing like this. Trying to take away encryption from th people? Really? It would be just as prominent illegally as it would be legally, if not much more. What are these guys thinking, seriously.
>>51406452
>THE ONLY WAY TO DESTROY ENCRYPTION IS TO DESTROY THE EDUCATION OF MATH FOR MANY GENERATIONS
So that is why they push common core so hard.
>>51407594
There is no rationale at all.
Just fear.
Fear and civil and peaceful people losing their human and civil rights.
Because of governments and corporations.
What a effed up world
>>51409460
this
>>51408995
Reminds me of when the NSA monitored WoW for months because they thought terrorists would be using the guild system to organize terrorist-y things. After monitoring known and suspected terrorists they found that they were playing WoW, but not using it to promote terrorism. Tax dollars well spent.
>>51409755
heh terrorists play WoW?
>>51409799
Terrorists are humans too who would have figured that out.
>>51405142
>it had not been confirmed
Then why write the article in the first place? How do journalists today keep getting away with articles that hold no fact and only speculation with "may have" in the title?
IIRC, when they killed Bin Laden and took all the thumb drives, they cheerily announced that they were full of porn and we had a good laugh.
Then, after awhile, they realized the porn was used for stenography, containing hidden messages.
And the whole thing used an off-the-grid courier system.
There is literally nothing we can do to intercept the communications of terrorists and stop them. The ones doing the planning are not stupid.
All the feds care about is making "important decisions that set things in motion" even though they have no fucking clue what they're asking for or the implications. And law enforcement just cares about having fun toys to play with to use against drug offenders for more of those federal grant dollars. And the FBI only cares about grooming and entrapping mentally questionable victims so that they can proudly proclaim they've stopped a terrorist threat.
Meanwhile, German intelligence is actually coming up with some clues using good ol' fashioned investigative work, instead of trying to pretend they're on the set of CSI with a GUI in Visual Basic to do their fucking work for them.
>>51409995
You also forgot that prison-military industrial complex - basically slave work - of America is very happy to 3 strike people of petty small crimes to get more people to work on its death machien
>>51409242
desu in the new NSA word pressure could mean that they had to do that or pay fines bigger than the supply of money in existence
>>51410898
>desu in the new NSA word pressure
Let's put aside the absurdity of the hyperbolic anti encryption circle jerk and how important encryption actually is in every day life for anyone that uses commerce online.
Isn't it ridiculous to assert that anyone could ever be capable of getting rid of encryption given the sheer breadth and scope that is out there in not only the technology itself but the books, classes, open source libraries, etc. that are all readily available for anyone to simply learn from?
This seems like the sort of thing older technologically inept people would latch onto without themselves knowing how to do little more then check their email.
>>51409960
Because modern day journalism is nothing more than the fear-mongering and shitposting. They are no better than their predecessors that were once convicted of yellow journalism.
>tfw a person entering journalism will probably make more money than an honest citizen.
You can't stop encryption, but you can get rid of Muslims ...
>>51405093
>Feinstein
Will this fat Jewish bitch ever stop with her bullshit
Everybody stop worrying, Hillary will fix everything.
>>51405093
>Feinstein
First she tries to take away gun rights while reserving a right to armed security and conceal carrying her own weapon
Now this hypocritical jew goes for personal privacy in the name of counter-terrorism.
>>51405093
>evil monsters
Who says this in an interview?
>>51405093
>it’s a “big problem” if tech firms “create a product that allows evil monsters to communicate in this way.”
TURN OFF THE INTERNET GUYS!
UNPLUG ALL THE TELEPHONE EXCHANGES!
STOP ALL THE MAIL!
TERRORISTS COULD USE THEM TO COMMUNICATE!
>>51409799
You have to be at least eighteen to be here.
So commercial encryption includes personal vps/VPN stuff? If I set up my own server using open VPN how are they going to be able to back door it?
Even IF you made phones accessible through law enforcement, terrorist would use other means to communicate like number stations which they literally have been using since forever.
Making phones accessible to law enforcement would be a minor annoyance at best for terrorist and would be prone to abuse.
You stop (or at least significantly deter) terrorists by having better immigration control and giving mentally sane people with no criminal records legal access to firearm ownership and the legal ability to conceal carry. You do not stop terrorism at all by fucking over the citizens you want to protect with useless laws.
>>51412818
By requiring, by law, that you have a backdoor into it and prosecuting you if you don't.
>theyre literally going to police people "abusing" encryption when they clearly dont have enough manpower to properly deal with the information they are currently gathering
>>51412835
I honestly don't believe that giving more, even sane people, guns will decrease terrorism.
The more randoms armed you have the greater the risk of mistaken targets, and that in itself won't deter the terrorists because they can still accomplish their goal even if they get taken out sooner.
>>51412835
>terrorist would use other means to communicate like number stations which they literally have been using since forever.
What, i thought numbers stations transmitters were really easy to locate.
Not to mention the fact that an antenna big enough to transmit from syria/iraq to europe is an easy target for airstrikes
>>51412875
>I honestly don't believe that giving more, even sane people, guns will decrease terrorism.
It will at least instill "fear". Most terrorists are sane enough to know that if they fuck with a heavily armed group of people they will get peppered with rounds before they can shoot down the next target. This is why they target countries/places with strict gun laws.
>The more randoms armed you have the greater the risk of mistaken targets, and that in itself won't deter the terrorists because they can still accomplish their goal even if they get taken out sooner.
But instead of killing 153 people they'll only manage to plink 3-5 people before being taken down
Also on top of this countries need stricter immigration control, France had to learn this the hard way. You don't provide a safe haven for mudslimes unless you're sure they don't have serious mental disorders/affiliation with terrorists or a criminal background.
>>51412919
True but numbers can be transmitted by other means (internet, pigeons, cell phone calls etc). You can't really stop the broadcasts anymore.
>>51412989
That's pretty fucking scary. Isn't a one time number pad "un-crackable"?
>>51412989
A one time number pad sent by physical means to one person and an e-mail with a txt embebed on a picture, the txt filled with "random" numbers that can be decoded with the pad.
Not bad, not bad....
Turns out they used regular SMS messages to communicate.
>>51412962
>/pol/>
>>51413038
I highly recommend reading this article, which describes US attempts to break Soviet encryption during the Cold War, especially the section titled Decyption:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
Of hundreds of thousands of messages intercepted, only around ~3,000 were decrypted even partially.
>>51412962
A good portion of the kills were through the suicide belts they had on.
People with guns won't stop suicide bombers unless you can identify them before they blow themselves up.
>>51413038
Only if used responsibly. It is a "one time use" kind of thing. Once you have your message decrypted, you must destroy the key to prevent people from snooping your message.
>>51413120
Well you got me stumped there. Guess the only way to deter such attacks would be with better immigration control I guess.
>tfw terrorists start utilizing non-encrypted communication software because they learned a new way to communicate:
jerking off while blinking
>another terrorism attack happens on north america because NSA can't into homo relationships
>>51413080
You don't even have to give the key by physical means. You can text it from a prepaid phone to another prepaid phone and mask it as data in a picture.
>>51413114
>Of hundreds of thousands of messages intercepted, only around ~3,000 were decrypted even partially.
This is what happens when you re-use keys or don't generate a random one from atmospheric noise or some shit.
>>51413231
Correct, they reused keys and it's also been rumored that a partially burned code book was recovered. That's why about half of the messages intercepted were also decrypted in 1944, but after they used up all the duplicate pages and moved on the new code books (completely done reusing by 1948), the traffic was completely unreadable again.
Funnily enough, I think they just had a ton of people banging away randomly on typewriters to make the ciphers, which actually worked pretty well.
>>51413080
>tfw this isn't a fucking meme
>>51413280
>using a number-pad TWICE
I didn't know the soviets were this retarded. They are literally named "one time number pads" for a reason.
>>51413171
They are rumoured to use number stations to communicate (at least for planned terrorist attacks). Any dipshit can use a one time number pad if they know how to do basic math.
Further proof the attacks in Paris were like the attacks in NYC -- allowed by governments to further fuck us over.
Fuck Paris and fuck NYC and fuck their crybaby shit. Our privacy and freedom is worth more than security theater bullshit.
>>51413374
They were running behind on cipher production, and I guess they thought it would be better than having the messages unencrypted? Security through obscurity, hoping no one would notice they reused a few.
>>51413431
>Further proof the attacks in Paris were like the attacks in NYC -- allowed by governments to further fuck us over.
No, snackbars really are this batshit crazy.
>Fuck Paris and fuck NYC and fuck their crybaby shit. Our privacy and freedom is worth more than security theater bullshit.
Invading privacy won't do jack shit anyway when terrorists use one time number pads.
>tfw governments can't even fucking crack a single number pad and think they can track millions of people at once
Toppest kek
>>51412835
>>51405142
>tfw Reddit has more accurate information than /g/
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151118/08474732854/after-endless-demonization-encryption-police-find-paris-attackers-coordinated-via-unencrypted-sms.shtml
>>51413699
Those could have been used to cover up the real operation though. ISIS aren't the cave dwelling sand niggers you all make them out to be.
>>51407491
That is not how it works anon. The burden of proof relies on the people claiming that they have indeed stopped terrorist attacks. If there is not such evidence we can surely say they have not stopped any. It is the job of the government to work for us, and to give us proof they are doing their work, not us to believe them
>>51406568
200 years ago this would have resulted in a civil war and riots.
Now people just post about it online and nothing changes.
>>51407491
Wasn't there a test where they were able to smufgle 95% of weapons and explosives past the tsa without being detected?
>>51405142
>no credible sources
>>51413803
Pretty sure he means the presence of the tsa being there has helped, even if they are incompetent.
https://youtu.be/IHfiMoJUDVQ
>>51413892
You completely disregard the point of my comment. Therefore I disregard yours. I was pointing out his fallacy.
>>51406568
that, or more likely to keep reporters and whistle blowers from exposing darker truths about how governments around the world fuck all of the citizenry.
the panopticon will be built. there will be no uprising because citizens will not be able to organize. snowden can't come home and has been criminalized for speaking truth to power.
>>51413823
The TSA is a government welfare program designed to employ some high school grads and EX-MILITARY who would otherwise remain unemployed. The nude scanners have demonstrates weaknesses and they barely pick up things on the scanners. They regularly admit unchecked individuals to the lower security Precheck lane.
Cops with bomb sniffing dogs and actual professionals represent a real layer of security.
I will note that I have been to smaller airports that are TSA training centers and those seem to be far more competent. But these represent a small number of passengers and screeners.
>>51405093
>even equipped with the search warrants and judicial authority
"Even when obeying the fucking law like we're supposed to, we can't get into your phones!"
Feinstein and the rest of the intelligence community can go fuck themselves, they lost any moral authority the moment they decided that their power-tripping and snooping took precedent over the Constitution.
Better to die by terrorists in a country where authority is bound by the people's written word, than to live comfortably in a police state with no rights.
>>51406296
Trust me, its not the american people. Anerican government who wouldnt know their ass from a hole in wall - now that is truth. Most americans truly feel for everyone our govt screws. Biggest problem is how to get the american people to coelesce to get these bastard and idiots out of government. We struggle with the same issue of cohesion as most countries do. So many out for themselves because no one has their back. How do we work as a people to outst these fuckers, these handful of asshats that are destroying the world? They may not be pulling thr trigger, but they are giving the enemy the guns so they can use it as an excuse to escalate then saying "look, they have guns and are using them! We must shoot them first" as americans, we are all for giving the benefit of a doubt, but in doing so with politicians with no true leader in office, we as a country just fuck shit up with our short sighted govt. Most of us want them out, we just need to bring everyone together behind a strong ethical leader.
>>51414235
>Better to die by terrorists in a country where authority is bound by the people's written word, than to live comfortably in a police state with no rights.
That's some really hardcore shit right there senpai but I agree.
Haha what are governments going to do, force the two relevant smartphone companies to weaken their security? Two of the biggest companies in the world get bossef around before their lobbyists have anything to say about that?
>>51408407
I think inside job may be the wrong terminology, i think perhaps "allowed to happen" may be a better choice. Perhaps they saw it, and decided that this would result in attacks, but the fallout is low enough to allow it to happen because as you said, it would provide the unanimous approval to do what needs to be done? Rather than fight a country of people and try to prove why it needs to be done, they allow it to happen and all the years of arguements and "might happen" are out. Its instant support and no regrets because "it DID happen" now.
>>51414427
Or France has shitty immigration laws and fucked everyone over by putting strict gun laws in place.
Stop pretending like the French government is competent enough to pull a two faced farce off. They've gotten attacked twice in the same year by sand niggers.
Makes me think this was a false flag to try lessen the usage of personal encryption.
>>51414496
>by putting strict gun laws in place.
Gun control laws are not bad. Compare how many high school shootings did France have, compared to the USA.
>>51414562
And how many mass killings of 100+ people has the US had and how many has france had? Making those aks illegal sure did save lives :^)
>>51414609
>And how many mass killings of 100+ people has the US had and how many has france had?
And how many commercial airplanes did the French have crashing into their world trade centers?
>>51414562
If they weren't bad then terrorist would stop targeting places like france where owning an AK to blow a terrorists brain out is illegal because the government wants to have the biggest dick in town.
>>51414682
You digress, snackbars crashing planes is a whole another ball park. Gun laws have nothing to do with them.
>>51414562
High School shootings happened in gun-free zones. Do you honestly expect that if the state says no guns, bad people will stop using guns? Do you honestly want the state and criminals having weapons and you being unarmed?
