Roid Real Talk
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You are currently reading a thread in /fit/ - Fitness
Why SHOULDN'T you take steroids?
>>37799723
you should only take them if you absolutely know what you're doing. if you go into them blind you will without a doubt fuck your life up. take the time to research how to take them, how to run a cycle, what to do post cycle, etc.
>>37799723
because they are illegal and only very stupid people inject something into their bodies which they bought from the black market
>>37799723
You will go bald and you will become infertile.
Also you will get gyno and possibly liver and heart diseases.
>>37799723
because putting a needle in your ass every 3 days sucks and youll lose your gains when you stop
>>37799830
Only if you go above the natty limit. If you use them to build up to natural levels then obviously that can be sustained on natural test production.
Because you don't necessarily know the quality of what you're taking, and it could have long lasting negative impacts on your endocrine system.
Also girls only want ottermode.
>>37799859
not if your test production stays suppressed after you stop taking them
>>37799723
You're really cute OP, basically a 9/10, roids would make you less desirable.
>>37799908
>not if your test production stays suppressed after you stop taking them
There is no evidence to suggest it does.
short term gains for long term risk
contrary to shills, you will likely lose a lot of your gains made with steroids once you cycle off, regardless of how many cycles you did
once you do dip, you will have to relearn habits and willpower because you had an easy time gaining & cutting
>>37799723
Because I'm enjoying my humanity.
>>37799723
Honestly, I'd love to use them, I'm DYEL af (3 months lifting, eating like a tiny pony) and would love to see some big ass results quick. Now, the thing is, you first gotta know how to get them. Once you got the the gear, you better hope to fucking god you use them correctly (I am not qualified).
If I had a doctor, with plenty of athletes under his belt that have roided under his supervision, I would fucking juice quicker than you know.
But Dr. Khumad, doesn't exist in my life.
>>37799908
>>37799949
Besides.
If you're an average man, your testosterone levels are low as it is naturally. Your mom has been drinking soda with asparatame while pregnant, you've probably eaten food heated in plastic containers during your developmental years, and probably a whole bunch of other shit that has fucked your natural testosterone production without a doubt.
so really, by roiding, you're simply putting your test levels where they'd be normally anyways.
>Suppressed
There is no proof for this. But ok, let's say it was true. Why the fuck does that matter? your natural test levels are low as shit anyway in all likelihood, AND your test levels start dropping like a rock at 25-30 - not that they're that high anyway.
Why would you want to go back to being "natural"?
>>37799723
Cheapens the achievement.
You have to keep roiding else you'll go small again.
You buy your gear from online fruitcakes or Bubba from the gym locker room. And then you inject this unknown into your body.
Various issues with long-term organ damage, decreased natural test production and emotional imbalances.
After 30-35 it's your own gamble, are you willing to sacrifice the last say ten years of your life with a chance of some kind of complication in exchange for a more agile and lively middle years.
>>37799984
provide evidence that environmental BPA or aspartame effect test levels, or even hormones.
oh wait..
>>37799984
>If you're an average man, your testosterone levels are low as it is naturally. Your mom has been drinking soda with asparatame while pregnant, you've probably eaten food heated in plastic containers during your developmental years, and probably a whole bunch of other shit that has fucked your natural testosterone production without a doubt.
LOL WHAT
m8
m8...
m8,
c'mon now, it's genetic, environmental can sway your test production by -10%... genetic like fluid intelligence (which is in low production for you, ect.)
Most men are an AVERAGE amount of testosterone, which is not considered low.
Taking roids is cheat codes to aesthetics and lifting. Doesn't that in essence ruin the point of working out?
Not to mention factual evidence of long term effects of taking roids/test regardless of what roiders on here want to believe
>just do ur research bro its perfectly safe!
these people will face a very sad and dark reality as they start getting older
>b-but my bros on a 4chan image board said it would all be okay..
that's literally what they will be thinking
and lastly, you CAN look good without steroids. it just takes some fucking determination and dedication to the gym.
>>37800279
>Doesn't that in essence ruin the point of working out?
no, working out is a means to an end. if you have superior means to that end, you should use the superior means.
if your life is shit and the only thing you have going for you is your body's appearance, roid away
if you actually have something going for yourself, consider not fucking up your body longterm
>>37800110
>c'mon now, it's genetic, environmental can sway your test production by -10%... genetic like fluid intelligence (which is in low production for you, ect.)
is it really genetic?
Research shows that testosterone levels are dropping worldwide by 1% a year on average, people born in the 80's have much higher natural testosterone than people born in the 90's or 00's and so on.
>Most men are an AVERAGE amount of testosterone, which is not considered low.
Average of what? Average for low test males? Yeah sure, average for a healthy amount a man should have? nope.
All the shit around us is bombing your test levels, especially in your developmental years.
>>37800279
>Taking roids is cheat codes to aesthetics and lifting. Doesn't that in essence ruin the point of working out?
There's no such thing as cheating in the game of life. There are things that get results, and things that don't.
That's like claiming doing a strength based program, consuming whey protein and creatine are cheating because they make life and lifting easier for you. Is it really cheating?
>>37800279
>>37800327
There's no proof you're fucking up anything longterm provided you don't have health problems beforehand, don't do cardio or take astronomical doses without regular bloodwork.
>>37800320
>working out is a means to an end
Wow, if that's what you really believe, I feel bad for you.
>>37800353
Go ahead.
I have other elements in my life that count as self-improvement, if that's what you think lifting does for you.
>>37800279
I am natty and don't plan on roiding but this
>Taking roids is cheat codes to aesthetics and lifting. Doesn't that in essence ruin the point of working out?
is a very weak argument. Lifting is not just a past time where you challenge yourself physically. It is that, but it is also a means to an end. It comes at a cost - hours spent, mental focus spent. If you ca safely save yourself a couple of months of your life in aggregate to reach your goals, as well as live your life in a better state for more of your life, then the downsides are outweighed by the upsides. All of life is tradeoffs.
>>37799723
b.c ppl think u cant do it without steroids, so me being me, i like to be in their face, and prove them wrong. only thing i want is to lose is the belly fat i have that ruins my aesthetic.. natural is best
>>37799723
Cant impregnante dat grill with tiny roid balls
>>37800320
its more of a lifestyle, only war should convince u otherwise
>>37800346
>There's no proof
https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/anabolic-steroids
http://www.cesar.umd.edu/cesar/drugs/steroids.asp
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2646607/
https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/steroids
>inb4 mr.roider anon is smarter than factual studies
>>37800394
unfortunately you are not aware that there is no endgame to lifting, you are constantly trying to improve and get better
>>37800353
>Wow, if that's what you really believe, I feel bad for you.
Yes...
What is the goal of lifting weights?
Easy. To look better and to be stronger.
What do anabolic steroids allow you to considerably cut down time to achieve? Looking better and being stronger.
Sorry nigger, some of us want to live our 20's well. We want to have sex, we want to have people "mire" us, we want to enjoy our lives.
We don't have 10 years to be lifting until we're balding in our 30's to finally reach a barely passable physiques that 6 months of blasting and cruising after lifting for a year natty will get you.
>>37800464
I love this argument, it happens every thread.
Roidergoy assumes that nattys don't have nice physiques, don't have any sex, don't live up in our 20s and don't enjoy life.
I usually assume that it's just projection and the roidergoy is hoping that injecting drugs in him with make his life immensely better
I love the irony in your last line about balding, considering that's one of the main side effects of roiding
>>37799723
Why should you?
>>37800459
>https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/anabolic-steroids
>http://www.cesar.umd.edu/cesar/drugs/steroids.asp
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2646607/
>https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/steroids
You literally didn't even look through those sources. I picked the last one because I'm not going to bother when you put so little effort into this.
>damage to the gonads (testicles or ovaries)
"no"
>liver diseases
This is why you don't abuse orals and you monitor your liver enzymes/take supplements like Milk Thistle.
>malfunctions of the kidneys, liver or heart
Blood test regularly
>'roid rage', which is characterised by uncontrollable outbursts of psychotic aggression
Fucking roid rage? >inb4 source is "wrestlemania wrestlers"
This is as much of a myth as reefer madness causing people to jump out of buildings
>paranoia
'no'
>mood swings, including deep depression
Caused by PCTing, easy solution - blast and cruise. It won't happen.
>severe acne
Doesn't happen to everyone and you can use accutane to take care of it
>high blood cholesterol levels
Monitor them, do cardio.
>high blood pressure
Do cardio, monitor them.
>injuries to tendons that can't keep up with the increased muscle strength
This is why you lift hard for 1-2 years to strengthen your tendons then when you roid you don't toss on as much weight as you can but go somewhat slow
>delusional feelings of being superhuman or invincible
LOL what
Is this a government website? This sounds like a teenager wrote it
>fluid retention
And?
>trembling and muscle tremors
Wat
>stunted bone growth in adolescents.
Don't roid as a teenager. No one is recommending this, ANYWHERE
>>37800509
>Roidergoy assumes that nattys don't have nice physiques, don't have any sex, don't live up in our 20s and don't enjoy life.
I didn't assume that they don't, I simply said that it's most important to be big and strong when you're in your 20's, and if you're lifting naturally you're not going to look very good until you get into the 2nd half of your 20's most likely.
yeah for sure you can look good, but you'll never be that "WOW guy", the guy who people stare at the beach, or the one who people say "Damn... big guy" even wearing full clothes.
>I love the irony in your last line about balding, considering that's one of the main side effects of roiding
Only if you're predisposed to balding. It doesn't cause it, it simply speeds it up if it was meant to be.
Luckily no males in my family have had any issues with balding as far as I know.
>>37800459
It's a 'different strokes' kind of deal. If you have standards - in terms of personal well-being, and looks, and lifting helps you get there that's perfect.
Maybe it is also a matter of perspective. I am over 30, and I know what my goals in strength fitness are, and they don't include the Olympics, or bodybuilding or strongman competitions or anything, that's not my life, and that's ok. They are more about feeling great in my own body, setting a great example to my kids, and receiving the respect of colleagues and admiration of women (especially my wife).
>>37800426
It's not a lifestyle for me, and I don't see why it would be worthy of being one.
>>37800522
>anon disproves factual studies from government sources by saying "no"
Why dont you post something backed by data before you make these claims mate
and why dont you use this one buddy
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2646607/
try giving that a read, might be difficult for you
>>37800563
>"Sorry nigger, some of us want to live our 20's well. We want to have sex, we want to have people "mire" us, we want to enjoy our lives."
Some of us, as in people who roid, correct? In what context did that not imply only roiders experience these things?
>>37800579
Your testosterone is probably lower than you think and it falling annually past 30...
You would highly benefit from TRT at the very least, not even only for muscle gains, even if you don't lift it's still tremendously important for mental health as a man.
>>37800624
>Some of us, as in people who roid, correct? In what context did that not imply only roiders experience these things?
Precisely. Some of us care about enjoying our lives when we're young. That's why people roid.
It's like the difference between having $2 million dollars in your 20's or having $10 million dollars in your 40's.
Which would you rather have? Which one is more valuable to you?
yo where the fuck do you even begin to purchase steroids?
>>37799723
I have pretty decent skin and hair right now, and I'm making reasonable gains without them, so at this point I have no reason to potentially jeopardize my assets for a shortcut to getting bigger than I think I reasonably should be.
Nothing against roiders, if you can do it safely and it makes you happy, then go for it. I just don't think I need it.
>>37800641
>backtracks on what he said, then repeats himself
lmao
>>37800624
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2646607/
>try giving that a read, might be difficult for you
Sure.
>Accumulating evidence suggests that long-term use of supraphysiologic doses of AAS may have adverse effects on a number of organ systems, leading to both medical and psychiatric pathology. Importantly, accumulating evidence suggests that some of these effects may persist long after last AAS exposure. However, the frequency and severity of AAS-induced morbidity and mortality is still poorly understood, largely because these effects may not declare themselves until users enter middle or old age - and investigators have examined at most small samples of aging AAS users. But this situation is poised to change, as hundreds of thousands of former (and sometimes still current) illicit AAS users begin to pass the age of 45. As this wave of aging users approaches, it is imperative to initiate larger and more systematic studies of the long-term effects of AAS, so that we can better inform both the present and future generations.
>However, the frequency and severity of AAS-induced morbidity and mortality is still poorly understood, largely because these effects may not declare themselves until users enter middle or old age
>and investigators have examined at most small samples of aging AAS users
>it is imperative to initiate larger and more systematic studies of the long-term effects of AAS, so that we can better inform both the present and future generations.
So basically... it's saying that there is some evidence is may have negative health consequences but the amount of people studied has been too small to draw any real conclusions and the timelines of the studies have been too short as well.
So BASICALLY, this says nothing. it literally says "We need more evidence to draw a conclusion about the adverse affects of AAS usage".
Please just shut the fuck up, I'm not going to continue with this when you don't even read your own sources.
>>37800645
steroids.org
>>37799984
Because people throughout history have eaten so <:^)
When you're young your body is trying to work out what your "normal" hormone levels are. Using steroids impedes this process.
How can you expect your body to bounce back to normal post cycle if your body didn't even know what "normal" is?
>>37800673
>Accumulating evidence suggests that long-term use of supraphysiologic doses of AAS may have adverse effects on a number of organ systems, leading to both medical and psychiatric pathology. Importantly, accumulating evidence suggests that some of these effects may persist long after last AAS exposure
Did you read that? It's saying that there is more than one piece of evidence that suggest roiding will adversely affect your organs. There is not accumulating evidence that roiding will NOT affect your organs. Just because it's not set in stone doesn't mean that the data doesn't point towards it.
I like how you still failed to post any studies or data on any claim you made other than saying "lol no". I already know you can't do so other than talking out of your ass or linking some pastebin from /fraud/ with another anon saying how roids are good 4 u
>>37800700
>How can you expect your body to bounce back to normal post cycle if your body didn't even know what "normal" is?
Why do you want it to go back to "normal"?
Normal fucking sucks, unless you have exceptionally high natural testosterone(probably not) it sucks ass. And it drops like a rock at 30-35. Why do you want that?
Natural is bullshit, where are you reading this post right now? That monitor/smartphone isn't natural either
>>37800733
>May have adverse effects
>May have
That can mean anything, especially given into account how they themselves have admitted the sample size is tiny and not long-term enough.
>I like how you still failed to post any studies or data on any claim you made other than saying "lol no"
THERE'S NO STUDIES FAGGOT. I can't post them because there aren't any studies proving the long-term health effects on a large enough sample size OF USING STEROIDS.
So how the fuck am I suppose to post studies of the contrary? The research simply hasn't been done, and if it has it's been flawed in numerous ways - admittedly by their own researchers.
>>37800773
>THERE'S NO STUDIES FAGGOT.
>>37800682
Ayyy
Don't be so evil.
>>37800734
>Why do you want it to go back to "normal"?
Because there may come a point in your life when you don't want to be on gear or it's not possible to be on gear. It would be a shame to find yourself in a situation where you have to, for example, take trt for the rest of your life through no choice of your own.
It's not unreasonable to hold off from taking steroids until you are fully developed.
Plus when you're older you're hopefully able to make more mature and informed decisions about what risks you'd like to take with your body.
>>37800821
There literally aren't.
You don't read your own sources. There is no longterm study on aas usage with sufficient samplesize to draw conclusions.
>>37800830
Maybe ask around the steroid general.
>>37799723
In the USA, possession is a felony, which can put you in prison, not jail, which can put you in felony status, which can prevent you from ever getting a decent job, which can leave you homeless.
Not worth it in the USA.
>>37800832
That's an unfortunate part of this all as well. People in their 20s are still really young and usually don't make the smartest decisions
>>37800832
>It would be a shame to find yourself in a situation where you have to, for example, take trt for the rest of your life through no choice of your ow
Why would that be a shame?
Do you know how many men past 30 years of age have low testosterone and they don't know about it? and they suffer in silence?
Do you know how hard your testosterone drops(it wasn't that high in the first place) 40 and onwards? Do you really want to have erection/sex drive problems, motivation problems and identity crisises not including your physique looking like shit?
TRT is necessary for pretty much every single man, there is no reason not to be on TRT-level doses of testosterone.
>It's not unreasonable to hold off from taking steroids until you are fully developed.
Most men have too low testosterone in today's world. They suffer in silence.
Plenty of people are literally living their only life suffering from low testosterone, arguably, well not arguably, undoubtedly the most important thing a man can have. There is absolutely no reason not to.
>Because there may come a point in your life when you don't want to be on gear or it's not possible to be on gear
AGAIN. THERE IS NO PROOF THAT EXOGENOUS TESTOSTERONE STOPS THE PRODUCTION OF ENDOGENOUS TESOTSTERONE
we're going back and forth here
>>37799723
A few reasons. If you do a physical sport competitively, the obvious benefit is better performance. Eventually this will catch up to you though, since roiding is universally illegal in sports. If you're not competing, then you're doing it for a personal achievement, that's all fine and good, but you have to weigh whether it's worth all the downsides. For lifting big heavy things? Not quite sure I understand outside of competing but hey, go for it I guess. Aesthetics? You can look fantastic, better than 99% of people without steroids, and in only 2-3 years. The steroids can help you do it faster, but once you stop you'll get little again, so you're stuck.
I can't think of a really good reason that's worth the downsides.
prob will at 25, but I know if I roid now at 22 my hairline will just dissapear at 25 itll prob be gone anyway
>>37800027
you can literally test your gear to find out the concentration of testosterone per ML or MG of a pill
The point of roids is to work HARDER than you would off cycle because your body can now take it. An idiot puts just as much effort and a smart guy puts even more every day at the gym. How does that cheapen anything?
Emotional imbalances are vastly over exaggerated as proven by peer reviewed studies
long term organ damage is possible, if you do it wrong and abuse steroids. It's not fucking different than abusing alcohol. It will fuck your liver up. You do it in moderation, its not great for you, but it's not going to produce long term organ damage. Jesus christ
Overcomplicating things.
Don't blast above a gram, do blood work every 3 months, see your doctor and you are set for life.
Cruise on TRT doses or just do TRT if you don't want to risk.
Consult endocrinologist before ofc.
It's like anything else. Moderation is key. You can have a glass of wine every night and be ok, but when you drink 2 bottles a night, you're red lining your liver. If you're smart about it, the risks are manageable. Not everyone is smart about it.
real talk now lads, one or 2 cycles done properly will not fuck you up for life
>>37800930
>I can't think of a really good reason that's worth the downsides.
Mental/feels gains
Sexual gains
There's so many /r9k/-tier depressed people who had been suffering before starting their first cycle and learning that it literally betters your life in every way possible, they found motivation and they got ready to enjoy and jump into life
>>37800863
Only reasonable answer for Americlaps
>>37800863
This is actually my biggest fear with roids.
>>37800988
You can get all of these natty. There's always the risk of you being a fucking retard, so be wary of that. (remember, everyone thinks they're not a fucking retard. especially retards)
>>37800901
I'm 33. I lift with guys aging from 30-45.
3 of them are unable to produce test naturally. All three of them having been blasting and cruising since they were in their late teens. Two of them are infertile.
Make your own mind up.
I'm profoundly glad that I never touched gear before I was in my mid twenties.
You're a cunt for lambasting people who think you should err on the side of caution on these matters and essentially proclaiming "roids! YOLO"
>>37801016
>You can get all of these natty
No... If your testosterone is low you cannot improve it dramatically enough to make a difference without exogenous testosterone supplementation.
Plenty of people here on this very board have 300ng/dl test and they feel like shit. They lift, their physique looks a little better than before, but they still feel weak, look bad and feel awful. What reason is there for them not to start roiding?
>>37801031
>3 of them are unable to produce test naturally. All three of them having been blasting and cruising since they were in their late teens. Two of them are infertile
Anecdotal evidence
I will repeat there is no long-term study supporting this
Objectively it's very stressful on your body and lowers your natural test levels.
>just blast and cruise brah
I'd like to not have a heart attacks by the age of 30. That's kind of why I try to live a healthy life and keep myself fit.
I'm still 21 y/o and have reasonably high test levels (according to my doctor). I don't see a reason to roid, even for aesthetics. Ottermode is all you need. I wanna look like a normal person when I wear a suit.
>>37799723
i have the satisfaction of knowing that the gains you see on my body were forged through the toils of my own pain
i need no drugs to craft my physique. i need only my own knwledge of strenght training, and a signed photo of zyzz
i still dont have that photo yet
if you could get augmentations like in deus ex, would you? I totally would.
Why be human1.0 when you can be human2.0
Because there are more important things in life, better things to do with your money, and a lot of good reasons not to take risk in order to look a little bit better than natty, when natty is more than enough for anybody, anywhere.
>>37801031
this
>>37801072
If they have actual low test, then a doctor will prescribe them TRT to fix that. They're probably just depressed and like looking good.
>Anecdotal evidence
Anon you fucking mong you literally just provided anecdotal evidence
>Plenty of people here on this very board have 300ng/dl test and they feel like shit. They lift, their physique looks a little better than before, but they still feel weak, look bad and feel awful. What reason is there for them not to start roiding?
>I will repeat there is no long-term study supporting this
As the person claiming that there are no/negligible risks to taking steroids "responsibly", the burden is on you to provide sources and evidence. Again, you fucking mong. Stop asking for sources if you can't provide them yourself
>>37801131
>As the person claiming that there are no/negligible risks to taking steroids "responsibly", the burden is on you to provide sources and evidenc
The burden is on you to prove they are harmful.
You(or the other retard) started providing sources to studies he didn't even read himself and expected me to go through all of them and point out how they're retarded when he could easily read the conclusions himself.
>>37801085
>signed photo of zyzz
Sh-should we tell him?
>>37799908
Can you post any medical literature that supports this claim or is this just a personal theory you are working on?
>>37801148
>burden is on you to prove they are harmful.
We are talking about something that alters your natural hormone levels. This is why pharmaceuticals are considered to be unsave until proven save. The same burdon of proof rests on the different kind of steroids.
>>37801165
What, you mean that jeff seid died in a sauna?
>>37801182
>Can you post any medical literature that supports this claim
None exists. He cannot.
>>37801199
So you have no sources?
The retard(or you, idk again) posted like 5 """sources"""" when they weren't sources proving anything at all. He didn't even read them
This is how retarded natties are, kek
>sadfags with absolutely shit genetics and no direction in life turning to steroids to compensate for their shittastic lives
wew lads
ishygddt
>>37801203
Uhh...
>>37801072
The important part of my post was "You're a cunt for lambasting people who think you should err on the side of caution on these matters and essentially proclaiming "roids! YOLO""
There has never been a controlled, wide ranging study of the effects of prolonged steroid use on men, starting from a young age, because of medical ethics. A researcher can not take a sample of guys in their late teens..... get them to perma-cycle for 15 years then make objective conclusions. They can carry out research on guys claiming to have taken steroids since they were under not fully developed but it would not be a controlled experiment....... It would be anecdotal.
As much as it's valid to say that my position that young men should hold off till they touch steroids is unverifiable so too is your "YOLO" position.
The only sound conclusion that you can come to from this is that you must err on the side of caution.
>>37801230
>The only sound conclusion that you can come to from this is that you must err on the side of caution.
Sure, if you want to be a pussy for the rest of your life. Get big or die trying
WHATEVER IT TAKES, CMON. The only thing in life is results or failure
>>37800733
Dude please stop and wait until you've gone to college because you're scientifically illiterate and it's embarrassing. You don't know how to read medical literature and it shows. When they say 'may indicate' or 'promising area for future study' they're saying they're guessing. Ok? No evidence yet because it hasn't been studied. So they guess. You're reading some guys guess and concluding it's proof. It's not. If it was proof he'd have data and citations we can go look at but he doesn't. Jesus Christ dude learn to fucking read between the lines.
>>37801148
>The burden is on you to prove they are harmful.
Yeah, no. The person making initial, challenging claims must provide evidence. This conversation is something like this --
>OP: what do you guys think of the spaghetti monster?
>(You): The spag monster is clearly the path to aesthetics
>everyone else: no you fucking retard
>(You): I demand peer-reviewed studies spanning a minimum of 5 years to disprove me!
fucking retard. you want sources? I shouldn't need to provide them but OK
https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/anabolic-steroids (.gov)
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/in-depth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134 (mayo clinic)
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=393678 (cited by 240, negative effects of androgen use, 1984)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933812742220 (recent study, done by European Psychiatry, suggesting long-term negative mental health effects of use of AA)
>incoming salt/ignoring my sources which are gathered from reputable sources from different countries
>>37801213
>you can't provide evidence when the burden of proof is on me
k
Decreases genitalia
>>37799984
how did you manage to be wrong on every single point you made in this post
>>37801266
Did you even read your sources? Here, I did it for you, taken from your Mayo link.
It is impossible for researchers to design studies that would accurately test the effects of large doses of steroids on athletes, because giving participants such high doses would be unethical. This means that the effects of taking anabolic steroids at very high doses haven't been well-studied.
There we go. Hasn't been studied. We don't know. Sorry. The only medical studies we have are on trt doses because that is prescribed. Now I'm not saying there are zero risks to steroid use, but claiming things like permanent shut down of gonads is completely without evidence. You might as well claim steroids make you fly.
I wouldn't know where to get, and probably couldn't afford designer gear
so couldn't compete in the ipf, which is a big enough reason for me.
>>37801301
I didn't
The people providing sources aren't even reading their own sources, it's pointless to continue arguing when if they'd just look, they can clearly read that the evidence is insufficient.
Whatever guys, stay pussies. But don't be mad that people are willing to take a little risk to get results you never will
>>37801312
>your source is wrong because I said so but I don't have any sources to backup what I am saying but trust me man I know what I'm talking about the risks are small those professional researchers don't understand steroids like me and the rest of the steroids users on 4chan
>>37801312
>I read one thing in one of the sources that might possibly support my absurd point of view, and ignored the other ones
My third source looked at negative effect of androgen supplementation circa 1984 mongo congo. The study from EP showed long-term negative mental health effects of use of AAS, and was made very recently. Peer reviewed. Provide your own sources for your poo pov.
>because giving participants such high doses would be unethical
LITERALLY SAYS IT WOULD BE UNETHICAL TO EXPOSE PEOPLE TO HIGH DOSES OF STEROIDS BECAUSE OF ALL THE RISKS. WHAT A FUCKING MONG
You looked for what you wanted, you'll always find it that way. Do you know what the MC source says directly after your sly quote??
>Anabolic steroids come with serious physical side effects as well
It then goes to describe all of the things that have been proven to develop. WHAT A FUCKING MONG. BTFO
>>37801373
>Claims source proves steroids are harmful
>The source clearly states that it does not prove any such thing
Guess how I know you're illiterate?
>>37801410
Full quote:
Anabolic steroids come with serious physical side effects as well. Men may develop:
Prominent breasts
Baldness
Shrunken testicles
Infertility
Impotence
Prostate gland enlargement
Women may develop:
A deeper voice
An enlarged clitoris
Increased body hair
Baldness
Infrequent or absent periods
Both men and women might experience:
Severe acne
Increased risk of tendinitis and tendon rupture
Liver abnormalities and tumors
Increased low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol (the "bad" cholesterol)
Decreased high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol (the "good" cholesterol)
High blood pressure (hypertension)
Heart and circulatory problems
Aggressive behaviors, rage or violence
Psychiatric disorders, such as depression
Drug dependence
Infections or diseases such as HIV or hepatitis if you're injecting the drugs
Inhibited growth and development, and risk of future health problems in teenagers
t. Mayo Clinic, the source you say "clearly states it does not prove steroids are harmful"
AGAIN
FUCKING MONG
>Guess how I know you're illiterate?
>>37801312
>The only medical studies we have are on trt doses because that is prescribed. Now I'm not saying ................
see
>>37801230
The only sound conclusion that you can come to from this is that you must err on the side of caution.
why cant I look down my nose at someone who is being a bit silly?
If someone chooses to get a bad tattoo on their own volition why cant I castigate them for being foolish?
I knew someone who claimed that smoking weed whilst pregnant was safe because there has never been a study that links weed use to infant development.......because it would be unethical to conduct an experiment that could prove or disprove the harm weed could do to a developing fetus. He was a fucking idiot. An I'm right to think he was an idiot.
>>37800773
Being this delusional. Shoo shoo gorilla
>>37801410
Steroids are powerful hormones that will change your body. This causes side effects like reduced sperm count, infertility, increase risk of heart attacks/liver disease. These side effects have been documented by steroids users; professionals don't claim these side effects out of their gluteus maximus
Just because you can take measures to reduce some of these side effects doesn't make it safe or reasonable.
It's OK guys, he's gotten the shit beaten out of him about his stupid ideas. He'll run along and go about with his confirmation bias, using steroids, and he'll die young, bald and with manboobs
sry but fact is if you're using steroids you have a lot of psychological issues
it's NOT a sign of strength, it's a sign of weakness and fear
>>37800040
What exactly do you hope to do with those last ten years besides make your family secretly wish you were dead already?
>>37801312
>cherry picking clauses from the research
>basically gambling with your fertility and physical well being
>basically using anti vaccer and anti enviromentalist arguments
WEW LAD
>>37800279
>Taking roids is cheat codes to aesthetics and lifting. Doesn't that in essence ruin the point of working out?
Some just want results asap and nothing else, so obviously no it doesn't.
>Not to mention factual evidence of long term effects of taking roids/test regardless of what roiders on here want to believe
What about all the anti aging industry using testosterone and hgh? If anything it seems like the best fucking wonder drug there is for health youth if done safely and correct with lower doses. This industry is probably even only going to get bigger and the this shit will be mainstream.
what about all these bodybuilders that used the shit out of roids and are still healthy and in good shape in old age?
>>37801637
anon if you stay active and healthy throughout 20-80 you won't be the average old guy, you will still be fit
not to mention all the advances in medicine and longevity research
the ONLY time this kind of argument has merit (WHY LIVE INTO OLD AGE WHEN YOU'RE SHITTING YOUR PANTS?) is when you have a family history or mental deterioration in old age
look at bernie sanders, 74 and still kicking ass
>>37801649
>implying i need fertility
i don't want to have children. I don't care
Also I can freeze my sperm while I'm still fertile if I want to(i don't, I might though)
>>37801670
>anon if you stay active and healthy throughout 20-80 you won't be the average old guy, you will still be fit
WON'T BE FIT WITHOUT ROIDS, OR AT THE VERY LEAST TRT.
>>37801670
>look at bernie sanders, 74 and still kicking ass
Literally a senile communist who has achieved nothing in his life and doesn't understand things you learn in econ101 in the first week.
>>37800110
>genetic like fluid intelligence
See: iodized salt, hookworm, lead paint
The idea that "normal" levels of testosterone is "low" completely misunderstands what "normal" means.
"normal" cannot be described as "low" or "high". It is a measurement of central tendencies. Applying "high" or "low" to the norm is a nothing more than personal belief or judgement
It's completely retarded unless you compete professionally.
>>37801758
So why do testosterone levels today differ so much from testosterone levels 20 years ago?
![yjaoyp[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/1KqLU2Y.jpg "yjaoyp[1].jpg")
>>37801758
> It is a measurement of central tendencies
wait....does "normal" mean mode, median or mean??
>>37801775
Phones and laptops kill test.
>>37801692
Do you believe your own strawmen?
>>37801775
anime and vidya
>>37801799
So how can it be normal?
If it's clearly going down since what was "normal" before?
>>37801670
>look at bernie sanders, 74 and still kicking ass
Argument invalidated
>>37801807
He is a communist who doesn't understand economics, that's not a strawman
You should have used Trump as an example of someone still "alive and kickin" instead of a senile commie
Hey can someone post a study showing reduced lifetime testosterone levels after steroid use? Or have you all finally accepted that this has never occurred?
My dad's 40 and lives in constant pain and tightness, also to closed minded to do anything about it. That's why I'll never take roids.
>>37801682
You think others don't? Don't go parading your views unto others that may not share them
>>37801850
freeze your sperm
>>37801838
>Or have you all finally accepted that this has never occurred?
This is just natties coping with roiding alphas succeeding while they waste time in the gym.
>Y-yeah I may look like absolute shit and be weak... but t-that roider will probably be bald and die from liver failure soon... I'm sure of it! Just another 10-15 years... I'm sure it wil happen!
ITT: The reason so few people take steroids in a nutshell
The amount of scaremongering nonsense and bullshit and lack of understanding in this thread is off the charts and the only people who care enough to suffer through all the bullshit and actually work out that steroids are legal, safe and useful are the insecure freaks and nutjobs.
It's a shame, because of all the bullshit (evidenced in this thread) the entry level to steroids is either a PhD or being a full-blown-nutjob
>>37801838
can you provide a peer-reviewed, academic, controlled, study that isn't reliant on hearsay and anecdotal evidence in regards to anything related to non trt levels of steroid/testosterone use? you can't because medical ethics would forbid any such study.
this is the core problem in this thread and why it will degenerate further into name calling and ad hominem.
>>37801425
>>37801406
lmao the two posts that actually make sense are ignored by the roider. obviously
>>37801890
Delete this pic
>>37801871
>he thinks nattys look like shit
enter the body dismorphia
>>37799723
but who is this tho
>>37801707
WE WUZ GENIUS N SHIEET
>injecting horse shit to look good for a couple of months
lol
>>37801823
i am not that anon, i just pointed our your retarded strawman
>>37801930
That's actually my point. There is no evidence here so all we have are people's guesses and anecdotes, which as we know are worth fuck all, despite the prodigious use of caps lock by zealots.
>>37802014
Your strawman is a strawman
>>37802059
https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/anabolic-steroids (.gov)
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/in-depth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134 (mayo clinic)
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=393678 (cited by 240, negative effects of androgen use, 1984)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933812742220 (recent study, done by European Psychiatry, suggesting long-term negative mental health effects of use of AA)
That took me like 5 minutes
ITT: delusional roiders exercise confirmation bias
>>37802001
>Lifting and counting every calorie to make somewhat noticable gains for two years and then hit a huge plateau where you can no longer put on more than 5lbs on a lift while bulking every few months and your physique has hit a plateau and you can only get a little bit leaner at best
>Wasting your life doing this
lol
>>37802118
Good thing I have other things in my life other than lifting and don't really care that much about it.
>>37802118
wew I guess it's good that me and everyone else is fine with and impressed by my natty limit and I have other things going on in my life, like a career, friends, and hobbies
>>37802118
I understand roiding to get TO your natty limit in 1 year instead of 3, but why the fuck would you want to progress the natty limit...
Unless you're in competition it's pretty repulsive to anyone who isn't also roiding, I understand that some don't lift for admiration from others but what the fuck do you do it for then?
>>37802139
>Good thing I have other things in my life other than lifting and don't really care that much about it.
Good thing I do too but roids help me reach those goals that I do have quickly and make me feel good in other aspects of my life
>>37802230
Good thing I find satisfaction and identity from things other than BIG MUSSKLLS
>>37802246
Good thing I do too
What exactly makes you think you can't have a good social life, hobbies, and a career on top of roids?
>The whites get their T lowered.
>The Jews bring niggers with normal T levels.
>They encourage interracial mating for white women.
>They picture/encourage the white men as feminine losers via media/education etc.
>>37802283
Nice sources, classic /pol/
>>37802283
being a shitskin myself, I for one welcome the new world order
I fucking hate white people
>>37802283
Lmao that is so fucking stupid.
>Hurr durr blacks don't eat this stuff, that's wy der test is so high.
>>37801930
>can you provide a peer-reviewed, academic, controlled, study that isn't reliant on hearsay and anecdotal evidence in regards to anything related to non trt levels of steroid/testosterone use?
Dunno about him, but I can.
100mg of Anadrol per day: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=12610024035019476695&hl=en&as_sdt=0,14
600 mg of nandrolone/week: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem.84.4.5610
600 mg test/week:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172.short
>subjects got bigger and stronger with negligible side effects
Make of it what you will.
>>37801991
I was thinking primarily of the effects of hookworm abatement on white Southerners, but whatever floats your boat.
>>37802112
Of course, nobody else could possibly exercise confirmation bias.
>>37802293
>The jews would ever allow any study of this to be allowed
yeah ok
They don't mind spending tons of money convincing people of the myth that "~~~testosterone is eeevvvillll~~~~ it causes heart attacks, ROID RAGE!!! and who wants muscles of male vitality anyway?!"
>>37802303
damn how old is zyzz in that pic?
>>37802303
Then why would you be welcoming it?
>finally fucked a thick girl like that the other day
>blew a load inside while prone boning that big white butt
>roids opened the door to all of this
The money, the pain and the time to learn are all worth it to be a Chad, make no mistake
>>37802370
This.
You might not become CHAD, but you can get damn near close to it with healthy doses of your good pal Trenbolone
>>37801108
Absolutely, no hesitation except for how much it might cost.
>>37802353
>Missing the Ben Garrison autograph
ya blew it
>>37801108
I'm practically blind, i'm waiting until they create some crazy eye implant shit so I can see heat signatures and have a HUD in my field of vision
>>37802280
People who are secure in who they are aside from strength and aesthetics do not put their health at serious risk to look a little better
>>37802488
That's assuming you're putting your health at serious risk.
Which I would be inclined to disagree with you about.
>>37802496
Uh huh. I see you have yet to reply to my several posts putting up sources detailing all of the risks and negative effects of anabolic steroids. Do you just ignore these things? Are you so delusional?
>>37801425
>>37801406
>>37801266
no reply confirms delusional
>>37802528
That isn't proof. Your basis is that since we don't have any evidence for long-term usage of anabolic steroids, it is best to err on the side of caution.
Which I can understand, but on the flipside I do not believe that mild to moderate AAS usage followed carefully and safely is harmful long-term until I see evidence of the contrary.
I believe that if you:
>Use moderate dosages(not pro-bb tier)
>Monitor your health markers diligently
>Get regular bloodwork done and inform your doctor so they can help monitor your health
>Do regular, high-intensity cardio
>Do not have any underlying health problems
>Use supplements to help aid your liver and bp
You run very little to no risk of any damage, and it is safe to play these odds given the benefits of anabolic steroids
>>37801659
>what about all these bodybuilders that used the shit out of roids and are still healthy and in good shape in old age?
lol wat
arnie has a pig valve in his heart and would have died if it had happened to him 10 years before
they almost all have health issues or are dead
>>37802580
Your beliefs have no basis in research or logic. Did you also just ignore
>>37801425 ???
All effects of short term, medium/low dosage use of anabolic steroids. This is textbook delusion. See
>(http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=393678, 1984) Therefore, the training regimen of bodybuilders is associated with a more favorable lipid profile than the training used by powerlifters. Androgen use by strength-trained athletes may increase their risk for coronary heart disease
And
>(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933812742220, European Psychiatry) There is an increasing knowledge about the negative effects of Anabolic Androgenic Steroid (AAS)-use but few studies have investigated possible long-term effect. The aim of the present study was to investigate the long-term effects of AAS-use concerning substance abuse and occurrence of mental health problems in male elite power sport athletes in Sweden ... The results show that Swedish male elite power sport athletes, who used AAS during their active sport career in the 1960s and 1970s, differed significantly concerning sport patterns, substance use and occurrence of mental health problems in this retrospective follow-up study. These results indicate that AAS-use may have several negative long-term effects on mental health.
I will never convince you because you are delusional. This is what you asked for as far as studies go. I can't argue with an idiot
You win I guess
>don't forget I posted these sources like 30 minutes ago, while you were calling out people for not reading sources. You clearly did not read these
>>37800624
this article is talking about people on like 3-5 grams of test a week lmao...read into it...page 11 on my mobile..
>>37802664
>Mayo clinic
>MAY DEVELOP
>MAY
>MAY DEVELOP
This is not enough evidence for me to convince me that the negatives outweigh the benefits. I will take my chances, thanks.
>>37802580
Injecting illegal drugs you bought from a stranger via the darknet is not a wise healthly thing to do anon
get real
just because you want it to be a good idea and have rationalized your drug use does not make it a good idea
>>37799723
cause it's unnatural, fucks up your body chemistry, is expensive and you lose it all when you stop taking them
>>37802683
LMAO WHAT A FUCKING MONG, YOU DIDN'T EVEN READ THE REST OF MY POST
THAT WASN'T EVEN FROM THE MAYO CLINIC WHAT A FUCKING RETARD LMAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO LOL
>>37802706
oh whoops i thought you were talking about the jamajama study
you're still fucking retarded
>>37802683
>People who play "chicken" may get into fatal car accidents
>THAT IS NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO CONVINCE ME THAT THE NEGATIVES OUTWEIGH THE BENEFITS. I WILL TAKE MY CHANCES, THANKS
>>37802689
>just because you want it to be a good idea and have rationalized your drug use does not make it a good idea
It's a good idea to me. You can do whatever you want
Just don't get mad because roiders are bigger than you
>debating steroid use
>both sides of the argument ignore the most productive and logical post itt
wew lads, c'mon now
>>37802683
>This is not enough evidence for me to convince me that the negatives outweigh the benefits.
negatives: it fucks up your heart and you might die, the drugs are made by faggots in their bathrooms who are criminal drug dealers by definition
benefits: you might look better with less work at the gym
>drugie logic
>>37802802
I don't care about that, but the idea you are doing the smart logical thing is not true
you literally sound like every other drug user trying to defend doing his drug of choice
>>37802821
Which is?
>>37802832
>negatives: it fucks up your heart and you might die
No you may not, do lots of cardio and live a healthy lifestyle. You're not going to die unless you go full-retard or have pre-existing conditions.
reasonable test-tren blasts are not going to kill you
>benefits: you might look better with less work at the gym
I feel better and look better
>>37802884
>reasonable test-tren blasts
there is no such thing
>>37802884
Also prevalence of mental illness later in life, MBP, severe acne, Increased risk of tendinitis and tendon rupture, liver abnormalities and tumors, hypertension and drug dependence.
but anon doesn't like reading those things so he doesn't reply
>>37802921
Those things haven't been studied enough to be able to claim they are a real possibility.
They MIGHT happen, but they might not and I'm willing to take those chances
>>37802934
acne, gyno and fucking up your tendons and liver are proven to be caused by roid use
even bodybuilders admit this, the tendon injuries are a result of getting unnaturally strong too fast
>>37802959
>acne
This is individual
>gyno
This is why you take AI. Also you can get a surgery done for $3000 which makes the tissue unable to grow ever again
>liver
Don't abuse orals
>>37802934
Unfortunately for you most of those side effects have been proven to happen because these roiders go to hospitals and medical professionals when they need help
That's how they document the side effects. It's based on the people who face these certain complications after taking steroids.
>>37802580
Honestly this is the most realistic answer that actually has evidence. Probably applies in other countries as well.
>>37802934
>Those things haven't been studied enough to be able to claim they are a real possibility
https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/anabolic-steroids (.gov)
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/in-depth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134 (mayo clinic)
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=393678 (cited by 240, negative effects of androgen use, 1984)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933812742220 (recent study, done by European Psychiatry, suggesting long-term negative mental health effects of use of AA)
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/86/3/511.short
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378427405001700
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378427405001700 (read - DIRECT INJURY TO VESSELS)
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/32/2/534.short (talks about psychiatric adverse effects)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0033062098800194 (Specifically cardiac toxicity of androgenic anabolic steroids)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027323001000019X (another study of adverse effects of AAS)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027323001000019X (yet another study on the adverse effects of AAS use)
http://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Abstract/1995/01000/Psychiatric_Effects_and_Psychoactive_Substance_Use.5.aspx (psychiatric effects in AAS users)
http://www.afboard.com/library/Kuhn's%202002%20review.pdf (CM Kuhn, lots of information c. 2002)
http://jlc.jst.go.jp/JST.JSTAGE/endocrj/51.425?from=Google (effects of high-dosage use of AAS in rats)
http://www.healio.com/psychiatry/journals/psycann/1992-1-22-1/%7B068dde75-7df2-4b18-aeb3-2080976052e9%7D/psychiatric-effects-of-anabolic-steroids (psychiatric effects again)
>>37799956
That is one comfy pic breh. Omg
>>37803037
>actually has evidence
I don't see any evidence. All he (you) said is "I don't believe that x will happen because I said so". That's not evidence buddy.
Meanwhile posts like this >>37803049 happen and you write it off as "nah bro trust me low dose watch ur blood and ur good lol no bad side effects trust me"
>>37803002
>This is why you take AI. Also you can get a surgery done for $3000 which makes the tissue unable to grow ever again
growing tits is not something you can list under the "negative side effects if surgery can correct it later
if growing tits that had to be surgically removed was not a "negative" then i guess there is nothing you would consider a negative
>>37803141
>if growing tits that had to be surgically removed was not a "negative" then i guess there is nothing you would consider a negative
this
>what are some negatives about steroid use
>well you might grow tits and have to have an operation
>THAT'S NOT A NEGATIVE THIS IS HEALTHY
roidfags
>>37803049
hold on i think the roidfag is crying now, all of his arguments have been destroyed.
>mfw I have more studies still
>>37803250
none of those count
roiding is healthy and cause benefits and a long life- that is all
>>37803216
story behind pic?
did someone throw acid on her face?
>>37803250
>>37803267
>natty cucks will literally search for hours to justify their bad physique and low testosterone
kek
>>37803141
>>37803216
you completely ignored the part where he said it doesn't happen if take your AI
retards
>>37803284
wow really
>i bet it took you a long time to find all that proof
strong rebuttal
>>37803284
>roidfags will simply ignore mountains of evidence telling them they're lifestyle is destructive and stupid
kek that's the best you can do? btw that only took me like 10 minutes
>>37803317
>you completely ignored the part where he said it doesn't happen if take your AI
not true some people are very prone to gyno and get it anyway
only way to find out if you are one of those people is to spin the wheel...
>>37803274
>did someone throw acid on her face?
that's boxxy
Because I want to have kids when I'm older
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hrh2HW7NQ9U
>>37803392
freeze your sperm
>>37803049
>https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/anabolic-steroids (.gov)
scare tactics, no actual studies, assuming worst case scenarios (some retard going "hurr let me start roiding" and pinning 1g of test with no AI and no PCT)
>http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/in-depth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134 (mayo clinic)
same thing again
>https://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=393678
study behind a paywall, but from the abstract it's nothing mind-shattering that any roider doesn't know.
your lipids take a hit. that's why you only cycle/blast for 2-4 months and then PCT/go back to a cruise
>http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933812742220
people who roid have higher chances of also being addicted to other illegal sustances. wow!
can you link something real that proves actual long term health risks, controlled properly, meaning that they ran their cycles/b&cs properly? I'm not going to go through all your links if they're all as shitty as those
>>37803341
>have no estrogen
>still form tits
no
>>37799723
Fuck it dude. We have one life. Why not be the biggest and strongest possible. If it's what you want then go right ahead and do it.
>>37803460
this is true
maybe you should work hard on finding something more fulfilling and depth than hitting the gym every day because you're roiding
>>37803474
>maybe you should work hard on finding something more fulfilling and depth than hitting the gym every day because you're roiding
You can do both, it's not mutually exclusive
>>37803449
>>have no estrogen
>>still form tits
>no
I see you don't know how this works
some people get gyno having never touched roids
injecting test, AI or no, can cause gyno, do you think people who still get it don't know what AI is?
>>37803449
what is this lunacy
>I don't like theses sources so I'm going to come up with absolute bullshit reasons to disregard them
>>37803449
>all scholarly, peer reviewed, international, reputable sources
>still thinks they're all lying
A delusion is a belief that is held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.
>>37803489
nope
if you're that involved with your physical training your psychological issues are going to hinder you from living any resemblance of a content and productive life
>>37802094
>Copy pasting 'sources' which don't have a single piece of data and explicitly say in their text that they can't answer the question because the studies haven't been done yet
Wew lad
>>37803534
>if you're that involved with your physical training your psychological issues are going to hinder you from living any resemblance of a content and productive life
No they aren't
Higher testosterone and success in bodybuilding is going to push you into success in other areas.
>>37803493
>some people get gyno having never touched roids
this guy really is retarded huh
How do you think male breast tissue forms you fucking retard?
>>37803506
>>37803532
the first two links aren't studies. they're fearmongering articles based on nothing (or at least don't have any sources linked).
third is nothing about long term risks or anything that hasn't been said in this thread.
show me something real.
>>37803493
please google what gynecomastia is before you talk to me. at least pretend you have a basic understanding of what you're talking about.
>>37803108
My bad, I meant to quote>>37800863
>>37803548
>>>37803493 (You)
>>some people get gyno having never touched roids
>this guy really is retarded huh
>How do you think male breast tissue forms you fucking retard?
AI is not perfect, it cannot eliminate all estrogen from your body. it can help but it's not: "I TOOK AI NOW I CANNOT GET GYNO DUMBASS" tier
sorry but you are wrong, I am a roidfag and have personally seen people on AI get gyno
this is why pro bodybuilders who have all the drugs in the world and AI still get gyno
>>37803548
name successful roiders who didn't make their living or success off their looks
>>37803474
With roids you can get the same results with half the effort which means you can go out and achieve everything else you want in life alot easier
>>37803406
Artificial insemination is like getting cucked by your fertility consultant.
I want to fill a woman with my seed and impregnate her with my offspring..... not have some febrile college kid stick a turkey baster up my woman.
>>37803506
Dude go read them and shut the fuck up. Not a single one of those have any medical research. The psychiatric one is the only one that does but it's psychiatric so nothing related to physical health anyway. The other ones explicitly say that they can't provide an answer because the research has never been done. Holy. Fucking. Shit. How stupid are you?
>>37800863
>In the USA, possession is a felony,
not true it's a misdemeanor
>>37803573
if you don't want to get gyno, you get your bloods done and dose your AI to counterbalance the effects of aromatization. just using an AI doesn't mean you're using it properly.
p.s. you can certainly get rid of all your estrogen with an AI you absolute retard. it's called crashing it and is very much a thing with people who don't have much experience balancing their e2
>>37803583
>this is what aspiring juicers believe
and what about when you cycle off? or just gonna blast & cruise bro?
>>37803532
Are you retarded? Not one of those links contained any primary research nor any links to primary research. And if you read them you'd know why they don't have any actual data, because they tell you plainly that the research hasn't been done...
>>37803581
>name successful roiders who didn't make their living or success off their looks
How?
I don't fucking know if they roid, plenty of people roid man. Wallstreet executives roid, regular people roid, anyone can do it
>>37803602
>p.s. you can certainly get rid of all your estrogen with an AI you absolute retard.
you literally cannot, sorry, no not all of it
>>37803610
>muh you lose all your gains when you pct meme
"no"
>>37803581
>name successful roiders who didn't make their living or success off their looks
lance armstrong, mark mcguire
>>37803634
You certainly can. It's not a good thing, mind--this is called "crashing your estro" and is very unpleasant, typically happens when somebody freaks out about an itchy nip and takes 3g of Arimidex--but it absolutely happens.
>>37803634
You can easily lower your serum estradiol below natural levels with an AI. Did you make a mistake or are you just entirely ignorant on the subject?
>>37803651
crash does not mean 0
if AI eliminated the possibility of getting gyno nobody would get gyno
i have seen people on AI get gyno
sorry
>>37803610
Why not blast and cruise? If you choose to do it then do it for good. Beside just using test isn't gonna fuck your shit up.
>>37803654
>You can easily lower your serum estradiol below natural levels with an AI.
but normally you don't and are running around with more est in your system than is natural at some point in your cycle no matter how careful you are
it's like saying seat-belts eliminate the possibility of dying in a car
>>37800833
not the same anon, but I'm gonna go ahead and suggest that there are no long term studies on anabolic steroids used in the specified capacity because it's illegal to do so. I'm not saying that steroids are inherently bad for you, but I'm not saying they don't have risks.
The way I see it, steroids are like many other drugs; can be done with reasonable safety and control, but pose a higher risk if done in larger quantities, or without the necessary safety measures.
Lots of drugs are fairly harmless if done properly, but the general populace is not a group I would trust with this sort of thing.
In theory, one could do recreational cocaine safely if they did it in small enough does and in environments where they are unlikely to cause any kind of harm, but that's not how cokeheads roll, hence overdoses, etc.
to say that steroids are dangerous/bad in all situations would be incredibly foolish, but to deny that they have inherent risks would be just as bad.
>>37800522
Have you not noticed the guys in the gym that are on the shit are always more agro than those that arent? Could be the low carb fad though.
>>37803618 (you)
>>37803591 (you)
>>37803559 (you)
>(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0033062098800194) ...Consequent alterations of cellular pathology and organ physiology are similar to those seen with heart failure and cardiomyopathy. Hypertension, ventricular remodeling, myocardial ischemia, and sudden cardiac death have each been temporally and causally associated with anabolic steroid use in humans. These effects persist long after use has been discontinued and have significant impact on subsequent morbidity and mortality. The mechanisms of cardiac disease as a result of anabolic steroid use are discussed in this review.
>(TL) High and multi-doses of AAS used for athletic enhancement can lead to serious and irreversible organ damage. Among the most common adverse effects of AAS are some degree of reduced fertility and gynecomastia in males and masculinization in women and children. Other adverse effects include hypertension and atherosclerosis, blood clotting, jaundice, hepatic neoplasms and carcinoma, tendon damage, psychiatric and behavioral disorders. More specifically, this article reviews the reproductive, hepatic, cardiovascular, hematological, cerebrovascular, musculoskeletal, endocrine, renal, immunologic and psychologic effects.
The second one is behind a paywall, so I can't see sources. So, you can either believe a published paper by Toxo Report, an extremely reputable source, just doesn't have sources to experiments and further your delusion, or you can admit you're wrong.
>>37803705
Forgot to add this, I find it funny that you require primary sources, which are very hard to find, while all the evidence you need is "someone told me" or "i said so". You've yet to give anyone an actual scientific study, paper, or source supporting your point of view. It's bullshit through and through. You're literally saying
>all of these .gov sources and journals of medicine are LYING TO ME SCARE TACTICS IT'S NOT TRUE THEY'RE ALL LYING BAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHA
>>37803705
your first one is also behind a paywall.
please get me more than the abstract if you actually want to discuss science.
>>37803760
lol
>>37803760
Please get me LITERALLY ANYTHING YOU FUCKING MONGOL to be remotely reasonable
>>37800110
Testosterone levels in men has been on a decline for the past 50+ years brah. The way I see it, I'm just getting in touch with my roots.
>>37803593
It actually depends on a lot of things, including the amount and which state you're in.
>>37803759
there are no valid studies is the point everyone is trying to make in this thread.
you're literally googling "side effects of steroids" and shitting links at me with absolutely no knowledge of what you're talking about. I don't even know why I bother, I don't really get anything out of this. you can enjoy your natty no gain life forever for all I care
>>37799956
>contrary to shills, you will likely lose a lot of your gains made with steroids once you cycle off
is this really true though or just retarded broscience?
>>37803705
This is abstract only, so it doesn't prove anything because we can't critique it. I know you believe 'science' is always right, but some of us, like myself, are actually trained and work in this field and so we know there is PLENTY of bad science that gets published.
Secondly, this only talks about cardiac disease, something I don't think anyone seriously questioned. The bigger debate here, and the poster I was replying to, were all claiming irreversible suppression of HPGA. Something that no one, at any time, has studied.
>>37803802
if you come off and PCT, your test levels are very low so it's hard to maintain everything you keep. you will lose a couple pounds, but nowhere near what you gained. some people use an oral ender towards the end of the cycle make sure they can keep their gains while shutdown.
doesn't happen if you blast and cruise, obviously.
>>37799825
This pretty much.
>>37803779
M8 you need to chill the fuck out. The point of this frustrating thread should have been to educate you that this topic is POORLY STUDIED and as a result we DON'T KNOW what the effects of steroid use are. Any person who chooses to use them (like myself) has to understand and accept the risks of the unknown.
>>37803799
>you're literally googling "side effects of steroids" and shitting links at me with absolutely no knowledge of what you're talking about. I don't even know why I bother, I don't really get anything out of this. you can enjoy your natty no gain life forever for all I care
we have 50+ years of many people doing roids, gyno, liver damage, heart damage, high blood pressure and torn ligaments are all proven side effects of roids
the thread is "is there any reason not to do roids" and those are the main reasons and they are valid
people doing roids do what they can to minimize those sides, but the idea that they are "unproven" or not to be worried about or considered is ridiculous
is injecting test the same as having natural high-test?
like will animals sense your high-test and shit
>>37803826
>Secondly, this only talks about cardiac disease, something I don't think anyone seriously questioned.
see >>37802580
If you want to present an actual opposition you need to provide ACTUAL SOURCES AND RESEARCH. What kind of retard who works in the scientific community doesn't understand that?
>>37803841
Oh, yeah? Can you link a single study that shows irreversible HPGA suppression? I'm very curious to read your sources!
Oh, just kidding, you don't have any because no one has ever studied that topic and you're a retard for posting. Go drown yourself.
>>37803867
>If you want to present an actual opposition you need to provide ACTUAL SOURCES AND RESEARCH. What kind of retard who works in the scientific community doesn't understand that?
You need to learn to fucking read and calm down because you are acting like a jackass. I'm not making the affirmative claim that STEROIDS ARE SAFE. I'm simply saying that the claim that steroids cause irreversible damage to the HPGA, is not proven. And it isn't. So go and google some more blogs and post them here like it fucking makes a difference.
Where do you guys even get roids from
>>37799825
>You will go bald
Not unless predisposed to high levels of DHT
> you will become infertile.
Just wrong on so many levels
>Also you will get gyno
Almost negligible chances with a proper A.I
> possibly liver and heart diseases.
Liver disease only comes from retard use of an oral steroid
Heart disease is a maybe if you don't take care of your health holistically (cardio and diet etc}
Surely this post is bait
>>37803928
fatlifts
>>37803928
Go talk to the biggest guy in your gym. Or visit reddit.
>>37803859
>>37803867
if you browsed steroids forums (or even just /fraud/) for more than a day, you would see that the average roider is a complete retard with about as much roid knowledge as you two
these sides don't appear for anyone who knows what they're doing. anecdotal? yeah, but we have no fully controlled studies to go by, so that's all you really have.
you can keep fearmongering all you want, I'm gonna go pin my ass and fuck sluts now
>>37803915
Oh, you're not the guy saying steroids are 100% safe? Sorry I thought you were this anon >>37803930
My mistake. Trying to be a jackass to that retard telling people there's no risk to taking steroids "responsibly"
>>37803943
pointing out the fact roids can cause gyno and you have to buy and take other drugs to prevent it(if you are lucky) is not fearmongering
>>37803958
No, that's not me.
It's quite well established that on TRT doses of test we can see aberration of the blood lipids and some remodeling of the cardiac tissue is entirely possible given the anabolic nature of androgens, especially on higher-than-TRT doses used by bodybuilders. On the other hand, every other side effect I've seen listed here today is either the clear result of misuse (failing to use an AI, use of oral steroids as opposed to injectable hormones) or simply has no literature support whatsoever, and may be treated as an anecdote (HPGA suppression, infertility, etc.).
Basically a lot of people here with very strong opinions on things they clearly do not understand and have zero education or training in the field.
>>37803930
>Not unless predisposed to high levels of DHT
No you fucking moron. It's not high level of DHT(if you even know what that means). Your fair follicles have to be sensitive to dht levels.
