>Content
>1. Biomechanics
>2. Pullup vs Chinup vs Hammer Pullup
>3. Closegrip vs Widegrip
>1. Biomechanics
Main movements: Shoulder Extension, Shoulder Adduction, Elbow Flexion, Scapular Downward Rotation, Scapular Depression, Scapular Adduction
Main movers: Lats, Teres Major, Biceps, Brachioradialis, Posterior Delts, Traps, Rhomboids
Secondary movers: Sternocostal Pec Major, Levator Scapulae & Pec Minor, Triceps (long head), Rotator Cuff, Brachialis
Primary Grip: Flexor Digitorums, Flexor Pollicis, Adductor Pollicis, Opponens Pollicis
>Lats
The largest, strongest, and most important muscle for the pullup/chinup.
The Latissimus Dorsi are involved in all of the movements - shoulder extension (pulls the humerus down, bringing the elbow close to the body in the sagittal plane of motion), shoulder adduction (bringing the humerus close to the body in the frontal plane of motion), elbow flexion (through the passive tendon action of the biceps, more info below), and the scapular part of the movement (depression, adduction, and downward rotation).
>Teres Major
Helps perform shoulder extension and adduction. Both the Teres Major and the Latissimus Dorsi have virtually the same strength of pull for both extension and adduction, regardless of whether the bar is closer to the coronal or frontal plane.
>Posterior Delts
Helps perform shoulder extension, but is weaker for shoulder adduction. This means that closer grip widths are better for the posterior delts than wider grip widths (more on this later).
>>37805873
>Biceps
Performs elbow flexion, along with the brachioradialis and brachialis. It’s stronger when the forearm is supinated (more on this below).
Due to being a two-joint muscle, the biceps brachii also acts as a “passive tendon” – transferring some of the shoulder extension force into elbow flexion. Even though shoulder extension lengthens the biceps, it has a much larger moment arm on the elbow joint. So when both shoulder extension and elbow flexion occur, the biceps shorten in length during the contraction, instead of just working isometrically. Furthermore, this “lengthening” at one of the attachments pulls the other attachment, in what we call “passive tendon action”, a very special characteristic of two-joint muscles (more info here http://fitsticky.com/articles/squats-hamstrings-lombard-paradox ).
This means that the biceps is able to transfer shoulder extension force into elbow flexion during the chinup/pullup. To be even simpler about it, this means the Lats and other shoulder extensors also help the “curling” part of the chinup/pullup, even though they have no direct attachments crossing the elbow joint.
>Brachioradialis
Performs elbow flexion, along with the biceps and the brachialis. It’s stronger when the forearm is in a neutral position, aka hammer grip (more on this below).
>Sternocostal Pec Major
Helps with both shoulder adduction and shoulder extension. Both the middle and inferior fibres of the pec major are very strong adductors, while the inferior fibres are moderate extensors (the closer to the coronal plane, the stronger depressor moment arm). Thus, wider grips and/or behind-the-neck pullups work your chest a lot more than closegrip.
>Brachialis
Helps with elbow flexion, along with the biceps and brachioradialis. However, they’re more activated during isometric elbow flexion, with the biceps and brachioradialis being more important during the dynamic elbow flexion of the chinup and pullup.
why are you reposting this lol
>>37805873
>Rhomboids
Perform scapular adduction (retraction) and downward rotation.
>Traps
Perform scapular adduction (retraction) and depression. The most active fibres are the Lower and Middle Traps.
What’s interesting here is the apparent paradox of the traps function – they are primary movers of the scapulae in exercises that are almost the complete opposite, the overhead press (where the scapulae rotate upwards) and the chinup/pullup (where the scapulae rotate downwards). So how can the exact same muscle fibres be primary movers in such opposite movements? To understand this apparent “paradox”, we have to look at the bigger picture, and also understand that the traps attach at the spine of the scapulae, so their control over the inferior angle of the scapulae depends on what other muscles are working with them.
During the OHP, the traps don’t perform depression because there’s no active pulling from the rhomboids. As the traps’ only scapular attachment is at the top, and they pull in and down, the scapulae are free to rotate upwards (the tops are pulled together and down by the traps, so the bottoms are free to rotate out to the sides), without causing scapular depression. This upward rotation is also helped by the serratus anterior, which pulls the inferior angle of the scapulae out laterally.
During the chinup/pullup, the traps perform depression because the rhomboids are also active. The rhomboids, which have attachments at the bottom of the scapulae, pull their inferior angles in (downward rotation). This means that, when the traps pull the top of the scapulae in and down, the bottoms of the scapulae are not free to rotate out anymore – as they’re also being pulled in by the rhomboids.
This synergistic relation with the rhomboids changes the trapezius function from upward rotation to depression. Meaning that the traps are primary movers in completely opposite movements, the vertical presses and the vertical pulls.
>>37805873
>Levator Scapulae & Pec Minor
Help with the downward rotation of the scapulae.
>Triceps (long head)
Helps with shoulder extension. However, due to having a larger moment arm at the elbow joint, the triceps lengthen during the movement. They also act as a “passive tendon”, transferring some of the elbow flexion force into shoulder extension.
>Rotator Cuff
Externally rotates the shoulders. Teres Minor has a small contribution to both adduction and extension, Infraspinatus and Subscapularis have a very small contribution to extension.
>Forearms and Fingers
They hold the weight. The chinup and pullup can be great exercises to help develop grip strength.
If grip strength is being a limiting factor, or is too tired from other grip-intensity exercises (like deadlifts), the trainee can choose to use a hookgrip.
>>37805873
>2. Pullup vs Chinup vs Neutral Pullup
Pullups = your biceps is in a highly mechanically disadvantageous position. The brachioradialis, though not in a strong position itself, handles more of the load due to that.
Neutral (hammer grip) = your brachioradialis are in a stronger position to perform elbow flexion than the biceps, but the biceps is now in a much stronger position to help.
Chinups = your biceps are in a much stronger position to perform elbow flexion, and your brachioradialis in a weaker position.
The forearm rotation doesn’t change the effect of the movement to the rest of the muscles. “The chinup works your back less” is a myth – a supinated or pronated grip barely changes the biomechanics of the movement at the shoulder joint.
For your lats, it makes very little difference whether you’re doing pullups or chinups.
However, as a supinated or neutral grip allows you to do more reps and/or handle more weight, it can be considered “better” in certain points of view.
>>37805873
>3. Closegrip vs Widegrip
The closegrip increases the total range of motion. It increases the ROM of shoulder extension, and decreases the ROM of shoulder adduction.
The widegrip decreases the total range of motion. It decreases the ROM of shoulder extension, and relatively increases the ROM of shoulder adduction. The wider the grip, the more compromised the range of motion will be.
Your pec major is stronger during wider grips, due to the focus on adduction rather than extension. Conversely, the posterior delts are worked more during closer grips rather than wider grips.
Your traps and rhomboids, while still acting under the same range of motion, are more active during the widegrip pull. This is because they have to perform the same range of motion at a faster speed when it comes to the Scapulohumeral Rhythm (more info here http://fitsticky.com/articles/ohp-megathread ), as the rate of glenohumeral: scapulothoracic angle displacement is closer to each other in the widegrip when compared to the closegrip.
There’s barely any difference at all when it comes to lats/teres major activation on either grip widths.
The closegrip allows you to do more reps and/or handle more weight, specially when combined with the supinated grip (chinup).
The closegrip also has a longer range of motion for both the elbow and shoulder joint, and involves more overall muscles. The closegrip can, thus, be considered “better” in certain points of view. However, widegrip has the benefit of also working your chest to a larger degree.
>>37805873
>Behind-the-neck
The behind-the-neck pullup (most commonly done in the lat pulldown machine) changes most of the shoulder extension into shoulder adduction, and also lowers the total range of motion. It highly decreases the contribution from the posterior delts, and highly increases the contribution of the pec major, and the activation of the traps and rhomboids (as explained in the previous section).
If someone wants to maximise the work for their chest muscles, a BTN widegrip pullup/pulldown is the best choice.
It doesn’t make much difference for the lats/teres major, though it shortens their range of motion.
Due to the very large degree of shoulder external rotation required, the behind-the-neck pullup (or pulldown) can put a severe strain in your rotator cuff muscles and tendons if the trainee doesn’t have much mobility, and thus lead to injuries. So it’s important to keep mobility work in check and make sure to pay attention to signs of pain, if the trainee wants to focus on BTN pullups.
>>37805930
>There’s barely any difference at all when it comes to lats/teres major activation on either grip widths.
How is this possible?
The lats arent even fully contracted when the chin goes over the bar with a really wide grip..
This is breaking my brain, because ostensibly it seems it is primarily upper back muscular contracting on a wide grip, and lower back musculature contracting on a narrow grip. to a significant enough degree that this is visible when witnessing someone perform them comparatively (assuming relatively low bodyfat and shirtless)
Care to elaborate?
>>37805893
It's not a repost, it's a complete revision.
There was wrong info in the previous version, specially when it comes to the chest and grip width.
This new version is also a lot more complete, adding a fuckton of detail about the rhomboids and traps.
>>37805966
>How is this possible?
See the images in these posts >>37805911 >>37805930
>>37805873
lol i duno
>>37805992
Right.. I just dont see how moment arms negate the apparent lack of contraction of lats in a wider grips, vs a narrower one.
Pls explain?
TRAPPY JOIN THE FUCKING GAME REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>37805917
My big question here is this:
If you're pulling up the same weight, or exerting the same amount of force regardless of grip, then wouldn't the grip that works your biceps less demand more from your latissimus dorsii?
If this is incorrect, please explain, because that's the logic I've mostly been following. I use both wide grip pronated and narrow neutral grip as part of my workout, but I might be able to optimize my workout based on this information.
Thanks for the help, trappy.
im too stupid to understand this
>>37806469
Then just say it's useless and no one cares about it
>>37806094
Just use more weight or do more reps?
It's like arguing 200kg bench press works less chest than 100kg bench press because you're doing 200kg bench press with 100kg instead.
Tl;dr
Do both on different days
>>37806995
dude wtf
>>37807405
Do chin-ups over pullups if you're after lat work, but the actual difference in lat usage isn't huge unless you start doing screwy things with your grip width.
>>37806995
>It's like arguing 200kg bench press works less chest than 100kg bench press because you're doing 200kg bench press with 100kg instead.
what did he mean by this
>trappy makes thread
>several difficult questions get asked so he bails
Pathetic 2bh
>>37808213
This.
Smh desu senpai
>>37808213
>he
>>37808261
>She only has a feminine benis
>her Adams apple isn't even THAT noticeable
>>37805873
why can i do chin ups but not pull ups?
>>37808164
I'm pretty sure the dumb fuck just couldn't properly specify rep count, and probably meant something like:
"1x200kg bench press is the same as 2x100kg bench press"
Because that statement, while obviously wrong, is at least human comprehensible, unlike that horse shit nonsense gibberish the anon actually wrote.
Noob question guys , I read somewhere that when doing pull ups /chinups I should retract my scapulae and hold them like when I bench press. Is it legit ?
>>37808275
Because chin-ups are easier.
>>37806094
for the purpose of strict calisthenics, switching from chinups to pullups to force out development from a mechanical disadvantage would be the appealing way to go, especially considering how progression in different calisthenics techniques is the goal, and especially since muscle ups oblige that you be capable of doing pullups well.
For the purpose of bodybuilding and weightlifting, focusing entirely on chin ups is probably the way to go since the lat activation is still significant, and the bicep involvement is more advantageous. So chins would be better for building muscle, and progression on them would be just on adding weight by a belt, vest, etc., rather than progression of movement type.
>>37808329
But why are they easier?
>>37808355
Presumably because they recruit the biceps more. I don't know, the theory doesn't interest me so much as the practice.
>>37808316
100000% yes.
Bad form to do otherwise, could fuck elbows
>>37808329
I can do 20 pullups but only 8 chin-ups
>>37805873
Thanks for copy and pasting this garbage ill just sum it up for you
Chin ups: more lat activation
Pull ups: more upper back activation
The closer the grip the more lat activation in general
The wider the grip the more upper back activation
There, no need to read that wall of text.
>>37808652
Also do both movements
for example:
>weighted chins 3x6
>overhand pulldowns 3x10-12
or
>weighted pullups 3x8
>1 handed supinated pulldown 3x10
this makes sure you have adduction and extension exercises
>>37808316
>>37808565
in the beginning (dead-hang) you depress the scapula (shoulders go down) before you start the pulling movement.
after that the scapula rotates downward and goes into retraction (end of the movement
don't actively retract your scapula during the movement
>>37806094
do you know how retarded this question is
your claim would make sense if the amount of elbow flexion would be reduced with a pronated grip since you would more rely on just shoulder extension
but that literally isnt the case the amount of elbow flexion doesnt change since you still use your fucking arms to pull up
The information learned from all this text would not meet any gains like the one would who spent the time doing pull ups
>>37805873
die in a hole you know actually nothing about anythings
stop copy pasting
been doing pullups without ever reading on biomechanics or some stupid shit
now up to +40kg weighted pullups for 3 reps
why should i listen to a homosexual mentally damaged fuck when i can literally pullup more than it squats?
Post nudes trappers.
Trying to see that Boi pussy.
>>37806995
how high are you
>>37808652
>Chin ups: more lat activation
>Pull ups: more upper back activation
Wrong.
>The closer the grip the more lat activation in general
>The wider the grip the more upper back activation
Wrong.
>>37809061
>not doing both pullups and adding more knowledge to the brain library
Shiggy diggy
>>37808213
>difficult questions
Not at all. They're simple questions. It was just 3 in the morning and I had to get some sleep.
>>37806007
There's no lack of contraction in widegrip.
There's a reduction in the total range of motion, as explained in the text.
But the lats will still contract to their fullest unless you're doing stupidly wide grips.
>>37806094
No. The biceps are working on your elbows, your lats are working on your shoulders (to simplify the issue).
Putting the biceps in a stronger position does not reduce the amount of work the lats have to do.
It just means your lats won't be limited by your biceps. Which is a good thing if you wanna work your lats to the fullest.
>>37807405
Closegrip = more rear delts, less chest
Widegrip = more chest and traps/rhomboids, less rear delts
BTN = even more chest and traps/rhomboids, even less rear delts
Chinup = more biceps
Pullup = more brachioradialis
Neutral = middleground
For the lats and teres major it makes no difference besides the fact that you can do more reps or use more weight with closegrip and chinup grip.
>>37809631
>wrong
Why not expand on why it's wrong, you fucking degenerate cunt?
what rep ranges should I be working in when doing weighted pullups? Does it really matter? when doing just bodyweight i do AMRAP, should I do this for weighted as well?
>>37809344
No one told you to listen to it you autistic fuck
You're trying too hard
>>37809685
Basically the same as you would for any other compound.
Trappy can you please do a tldr on training upper lat width. im trying to read but im a bit slow understanding .
>>37809703
true thanks bro
How does one effectively progress on both weighted chinups and BW chinups to failure? I'm up to 10 kg weighted for ~5 reps but my BW to failure is stuck at like 6 or 7 at good days. I do them twice a week, one weighted day and one bw day.
Also, the performance of each set seems to detoriate extremely quickly for me. I almost always get like 7/6/5 or something, never the same amount per set. Maybe I'm pushing too hard on the first set, but If I'm not I can't progress I feel, especially when doing weighted, it looks like 5/4/3 every time.
This got me thinking that, since I never can get the same amount of reps per set, I should aim for a total amount of reps per session instead, and perform however many reps and sets it takes to reach that. This would let me get the volume regardless of my sets getting worse or not.
It would look something like this:
W1 10kg 15 reps
W2 11.25kg 12-14 reps
W3 12.5kg 10-12 reps
W4 13.75kg 10 reps or deload and start next cycle a little heavier
Have anyone done something similar or is there other popular progressions specific to the chinup/pullup? I'm starting my second cycle next week it will be interesting to see whether or not this works. First weeks was pretty easy but I only increased ~4kg and I still did 3-4 reps per set. I guess you can get problems when after a ton of cycles your endurance is so low that you're doing 15 singles the first week, but theoretically this shouldn't happen if you're always pushing yourself to failure.
>>37809877
Thought about this more.
I guess some alternatives are:
* Always the same number of reps per set, but increase sets as needed to match daily volume. This fixed amount could be static all through the cycle or decrease as weight increases. The fixed amount has to be a little lower to allow flexibility when your performance starts to decrease.
* Keeping total volume same throughout the cycle, but still increasing intensity and keeping sets and reps flexible.
* Aiming for a total amount of reps per set (say 12), regardless if you can do it or not, and fill in the rest with negatives. Each week you try to do more real ones and less negatives. This is mostly for BW chinups to failure I guess. This was very effective for me when I started out and only could do one or two, but I don't know how effective it is compared to adding more sets instead and aim for a total volume of the day with real chinups.
Can anyone really simplify the data above?
It's all well and good having it but what does this mean for the average joe?
>>37810567
>>37809740
Closegrip = more rear delts, less chest
Widegrip = more chest and traps/rhomboids, less rear delts
BTN = even more chest and traps/rhomboids, even less rear delts
Chinup = more biceps
Pullup = more brachioradialis
Neutral = middleground
For the lats and teres major it makes no difference besides the fact that you can do more reps or use more weight with closegrip and chinup grip.
>>37809649
It's in the text and images bby.
>>37805873
>>37805885
>>37805896
>>37805911
>>37805917
>>37805930
>>37805950
>>37810658
How many full rom pullups / chinups can you do?
>>37810658
Thanks Trappy-chan!!
I'll into biomechanics someday but this'll do for now
What do you think about this info?
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/3-reasons-rows-inferior-exercise-lats/
"1. Rows don't work the latissimi dorsi through their full range of motion. In fact, even if your back is fully horizontal while rowing, your ROM is only half (90° vs. ~180°). Not convinced this matters?
https://bretcontreras.com/partial-vs-full-reps-or-both/
Even worse, when your elbow travels behind your body, tension on the lats is lost, because the lats cannot hyperextend the shoulder.
Oh and if your program has a 'back' day, do you even functional anatomy?
http://www.simplyshredded.com/muscle-specific-hypertrophy-biceps-back-and-legs-by-menno-henselmans.html
2. Free weight rows have an open kinetic chain, which means force transfer is not maximal and muscle activity is limited compared to exercises like pull-ups. This is also supported by EMG studies.
Don't know what a kinetic chain or tissue stress distribution is? Read this to become aware:
http://www.simplyshredded.com/7-principles-of-exercise-selection.html
3. Rows have a constant resistance curve. This is highly inefficient, because your body has a decreasing strength curve during pulling motions. This is why the last part of a row feels so heavy and in the first part you barely feel any resistance. And your lats don't get trained effectively.
Not convinced by science? See attachment for a picture of my back after years of rowing and deadlifting AKA traditional bro back training compared to now, after years of training with biomechanically optimized exercises." - Menno Henselmans
Online physique coach, fitness model and scientific author, Menno Henselmans helps serious trainees attain their ideal physique using his Bayesian Bodybuilding methods.
>>37810846
Those are exaggerating a bit, but a few of those points are correct.
>>37809877
>>37810164
Any thougths on this? >>37811649
