I want to build my own energy storage, did any of you ever made one. Essentially I want to create a battery which I would charge with my PV, and use in peak hours. I am more interested in the process and things that are necessary to look for and problems facing while doing the project.
>buy a powerwall
I want to know how to make one and is it more feasible to build or just buy it.
Questions that I have is, what batteries are more reliable, Zinc-Bromine flow, Li-Ion NCA/FCM, Li-Ion Ferid, or supercapacitators?
Enjoy your net loss unless you have retard high power costs.
Slap some solar panels on that bitch, "net loss" my ass
>>983224
>Enjoy your net loss
please elaborate, how much would I lose
>>983235
Great point
That said, salt water batteries will soon make home batteries and neighborhood batteries feasible. MIT and HArvard doing good work.
OP, wait a few more years and then this will make sense
>>983226
ROI on solar panels are like 10-20 years
>>983235
>>You mentioned a PV, I don't know what that is.
PV = photovoltaic cell, aka solar panel
>>983210
I've never heard of a circuit that switches over to batteries during peak consumption. I have heard of set-ups that will automatically switch to battery back-up during a power grid failure, and usually it powers a couple of dedicated circuits via a 2nd fuse panel.
I have used deep cycle gel cells and lead-acid wet cells for batteries (not used together).. around the order of 220 AHr (24 hr rating) that powered just a couple of systems.
Li-ion are pretty damn expensive, and I know nothing about those other types you've listed.
For sure you need to look into an MPPT type smart charger, one that allows you to set the type of battery and/or voltage points. That will squeeze out every possible watt from your panels efficiently.
Also you will need to fuse your battery leads for safety.
I used to get Home Power magazine (homepower.com) for years. I've no experience with a system of the scale you desire. Regardless, I am interested.
>>983235
Transformers don't convert DC to AC, dipshit
>>983210
The best thing is to have a grid-tied system without batteries. The only battery backup I have is a UPS for my PC for when the power goes out. I live in an area where the utility power flickers on and off a few times a week and it was destroying my HDDs and USB drives regularly. The UPS has stopped that completely.
I haven't installed solar yet because I can't get something for a low enough price to make it worth it. It'd take 5 years just to pay off the panels in savings but then I might have to replace something in that amount of time which extends it. I am working on several designs for wind turbines. Those, I can makes for extremely cheap, less than the cost of 1 electric bill ($35/month max). I can also have them run individual appliances instead of tying into the entire house.
You can also lower your electric bill drastically, if you've not done so already. That is normally the best course of action before you settle on alternative power supplies. Get it as low as possible and keep it low for a year. Only then will you be able to really know what you'll need in power generation.
There are also many things with your existing appliances that you need to take into consideration. Like your fridge-freezer's defrost cycle eats up more energy than the cooling cycles and will run even more on poor sine wave power generation. Getting a fridge-freezer that does not have a defrost cycle lowers energy consumption greatly. You can also destroy your fridge-freezer with poor sine wave power generation due to all the new electronics in fridges today More info:
http://solarhomestead.com/how-to-choose-a-refrigerator/
Making your own energy storage system is basically Legos now:
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar-information/battery-bank-sizing
http://www.offthegridnews.com/grid-threats/building-a-battery-bank-for-your-off-grid-energy-needs/
Check out cheap RV stuff like this:
http://www.invertersrus.com/powermax-pmts-30.html?gclid=CMC8sr6-08UCFdSQHwod4bQAzQ
>>984542
...ran out of room.
>Check out cheap RV stuff like this:
>http://www.invertersrus.com/powermax-pmts-30.html?gclid=CMC8sr6-08UCFdSQHwod4bQAzQ
FYI, this is normally used in RVs for having the RV hooked to utility power and a generator. When the generator kicks on, this unit will have a delay of an adjustable time to let the generator level off after starting then switch the RV's power supply from utility power to generator power. This system can be used for any kind of power generation with a grid-tie system, like solar/wind. You can have things setup so it only turns on at certain times of the day like peak hours (electrical timer) or when it is generating enough energy to take over (120v relay).
This stuff may be over your head right now, but it is worth a look into.
>>983235
this
>>984531
he obviously means inverter.
go back to /b/ with those pointless reactionary insults.
>>984477
Try less than 10, well within the standard mortgage period of 25 yrs, and I live in a region with "cheap" electricity: $0.08/kWhr. The panels are going to outlive me so my kid will get it for nothing when I die. The roi gets better with time as panel costs drop and electricity prices inevitably climb. Currently 2/3rds of my power bill is fees for being connected to the grid.
Using a roi to try to justify PV's is like asking what the roi is on your living room sofa. A PV's roi is significantly better than your vehicle.
>>983210
>professional battery guru up in this thread
My honest advice, OP, is don't do this shit unless you actually need to. The charge controller is expensive (inb4 hurr durr PV panels I don't need a charge controller or some bullshit about making your own charge controller [which would be a fun - if gigantic and expensive - project if the outcome would be something other than burning your motherfucking house down if you fuck up]) the cells are expensive to buy and time consuming to maintain. The inverters are hella expensive. You wont (and I'm 100% sure that if you came to /diy/ to ask about this that YOU WONT) be able to make a functional, synchronizing inverter that could power your house by yourself. Since the inverter is necessary to run all the 120VAC shit in your house, you'll want to get a good one of decent size that wont brown down and melt all your expensive electronics - thus being multiple thousands of dollars.
If you see a REAL reason backup your house like zombies or tyrannical governments coming to take your guns and you just want to live out the woods off the grid, that's one thing. But this is a horrendous idea for anyone who lives in a neighborhood and has reliable access to utility power. You never get a return on your investment. It just doesn't happen. Obvious exception being if you had some critical load like a person on life support staying in your home.
About your final question; industry standard is lead acid for a reason. Its easy and relatively cheap to maintain, and they last forever with proper maintenance. Downsize is they're fuckhuge compared to the other options.
>>985337
>tax credits
>>985350
>Buy old APCs with dead batteries for peanuts
>Connect them to the batteries (assuming 12v)
You now have a cheap inverter to put in your shipping container house.
>>985350
What are the advantages of SLA over lithium iron phosphate besides cost and not being a pile of fireworks when shit goes wrong?
>>985463
For an in-home application I would go with VRLA or flooded-cell type batteries. My logic here is that you may be forced to let them sit without cycling for along period of time. Instead of adding complexity to the system and forcing your inverter to cycle on every month or so regardless of demand/you being home/no AC on in the winter/etc or getting (building?) a load bank to properly exercise the cells, you just check the specific gravity, add water as needed, and then forget about them for the next 12 months. I am biased because I maintenance batteries all the time and /prefer/ the ease of LAs. That being said, they truthfully run cooler, last longer (with proper care), and have a 0% chance of exploding/engulfing your house in fire as you sleep. Downsides of course are size/weight and that the electrolyte can spill if you tip them over.
>anecdotal evidence inbound:
I've worked with one customer who has had the same battery string in their substation for 50-some years and has had to swap 3 of their 196 cells.Good fucking luck getting ANY sealed battery to last that long under any kind of load, even with a proper charge controller/duty cycle scheme. But hey, it's your money: if you feel more comfortable with a technology other than what every power plant, utility substation, hospital, or critical load center uses,you probably know better than them.
>>985462
>did this motherfucker suggest I purchase an Armored Personnel Carrier?
>>985482
>>985462
Couldn't resist
>>985337
Hi sorry for the delay in replying.
A 200 watt rated polycrystalline PV cost me C$399. I paid $0.09/kWhr. It generates just over C$35/year. I've had it for less than a year so I periodically have to boost the projected output as I map the output curves during the seasons, and with the longer days it's getting better.
My under 8 year payback was slightly in error, I also happen to have 4 smaller monocrystalline PV's I was given for nothing that have a combined output of 160 watts and I had factored those in. They are from the mid-1980s and still pump out 95% of rated power.
I initially went solar years ago for emergency power for my ham radios as I lived in a remote coastal community. During an extended outage I connected a cheap inverter to run some lights and had neighbours wondering why I still had power. Lol. Started looking seriously at grid intertie as PV prices were starting to come down about 4 years ago. A single high end 75w panel that cost C$650+ in 2002 now can be had for C$300.
BTW, it also helps that I live in an apartment building. I have been able to cut my consumption down to a daily average of 700 watts. 500 watts or so comes from my newer fridge.
>>983210
You need solar panels.
lots of them.
AAAAaaaand they already released a study that it will only benefit those who live in areas with high power costs.
It's a toy for the wealthy, just like the cars.
Elon Musk is a meme.
Seriously just buy a power wall, it will be cheaper and more practical
>>985559
Yeah, a meme that's putting payloads in space.
If you don't want musk doing this shit, enjoy having nobody do it at all. Until someone actually puts a competing product to market that measures up to what he's already selling today, I won't buy into the skepticism.
Meme magic is powerful shit.
>>985772
>competing product
yeah, lots of SLA batteries. they've been doing this for decades. the difference between the power wall and a bank of SLAs is that the powerwall you get to mount in your lounge room to fag it up and talk about how you've saving the planet.
>>985758
>Clearly I'm not a professional, but 500watts is literally nothing.
That's enough to charge a battery bank.
>tfw my PC uses 600watts and nothing else even gets above 100watts.
>>985785
Let's think about that for a sec. 500W production capacity for $500 doesn't sound so bad, but most of the expense for a storage system is the storage. 500W for 30% of the day (because lol sunlight) from your panels, translates to 4kWh per day. Say our charge/discharge/inverter is 70% efficient and your string is exactly the right size (gfl with that). That translates to >118W per hour over a day. It offsets your constant load (lights, fans, fridge cycling, TV, computer, phone chargers, etc) by less than 0.97A. Idk about you but that seems like a lot of expense for a pretty pathetic return unless, as one anon said, the power cuts out a lot or something.
>>986219
>as one anon said, the power cuts out a lot or something.
This? >>984542 & >>984543 "The only battery backup I have is a UPS for my PC for when the power goes out", that's me, fyi. My only problem is that I spend less than $420 a year on electric. Just panels without batteries are no where near cheap enough to be worth using.
I just think that 500w for $500 is a good deal for people who need remote or off-grid energy. For me, energy conservation trumps green energy every time. I'm hoping that the prices will come down over time as tech like solar panels get better, but I don't see that happening in my life time.
For me, DIY VAWTs are the cheapest and best solution for home energy generation. Energy storage on the other hand seems like it will never be cheap enough to be worth it beyond something specialized this to protect my electronics:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3260287
>>986266
That could be fun. Winding a generator by hand sounds like a bitch though.
>>986335
>Winding a generator by hand sounds like a bitch though.
Who said that?
>>986346
Depends how deep into the "do it yourself" you get. I'm sure your could repurpose a drill motor or something, but I feel like that would be cheating.
ITT: people who cannot into spreadsheets.
One axis is price per kW in PV.
One axis is power consumption.
You have an initial investment in electricity costs stepped across power consumption.
You have an equation approximately detailing electricity prices for power consumed across the next N years.
Tada, spit out numbers across your sheet telling you how many years to get an ROI if no equipment fails.
>oh but equipment can fail
THEN MULTIPLY EVERYTHING BY 1.3 OR SOMETHING TO GET REALISTIC WORST-CASES
I remember calculating three years ago when electricity was protejected to skyrocket that a 2 kW installation with batteries in an area at around 16 American cents per kWh would pay itself back in 7 to 9 years IF you did all of the installation yourself and only paid for an inspector to verify everything. And you could scale-up to 5kW or so and keep most of your equipment in that scenairio.
>captcha: pasta
>>985487
This is much better than a UPS
OP here, first of all this is extremly useful information, a big thanks to all of you. I saved the whole thread and going to study it thoroughly.
Ive had a different idea for a while and this js the thread for it:
id like to design a system (convert certain appliances) that uses supercapacitors as a modular power source. I would have several units of caps that can be charged by wind, solar, converted exercise bike etc, that i would keep on hand, then when i want to use a blender, stereo, ???, intermitent power i just plug one in.
when its sunny windy or im working out i charge any empty units. Possible? Worth it? Please ignore the inconvenience factor because its not a factor for me
