I need a /diy/ concrete recipe, please.
I know I need sand, gravel, and cement... but how do I make cement?
I've heard of some recipes that are basically just powdered rock with a certain kind of fluid that activates it. What about those methods?
If I ever start building my own home, knowing how to make my own concrete will save me money and ensure higher quality mortar for rock walls, bricks, foundations, driveways, etc.
Please help, I can't easily find much info on the cement or activators that bind it all together.
And plus, I've heard of "super durable" concrete types being created.
Because I don't know any jargon the industry uses, its hard for me to find much on Google.
>>978964
>>978964
Have you thought about the amount infrastructure you'd need to make foundation or driveway quantities?
>>978964
portland cement is mostly limestone and clay, baked in a kiln and then ground into a fine powder.
>knowing how to make my own CONCRETE will save me money
this is correct. but trying to make your own CEMENT is insanity.
>>978964
Just buy the portland cement by the bag you nigger
>pushing a good thread off for this shit
>>978964
>knowing how to make my own concrete will save me money and ensure higher quality mortar
/facepalm
no, leave it to people who know what they're doing and can pour a foundation more than one bucket at a time
https://books.google.com/books?id=2xk6AAAAMAAJ
There you go - Google books is your friend
>>978978
Thank you, but it still doesn't tell me what I need to make cement :(
>>978988
Yea, but I'm hoping I wouldn't need a rock crusher or anything terribly expensive. I'm the kinda guy that's dirt poor, I make wine from grape concentrate and sugar in empty two liters that were for off brand coke and cost 60 cents. Instead of buying a glass carboy for large batches I use a water cooler jug. I'm not too prideful to feel embarrassed by doing whatever I'd need to do to get the job done.
>>978990
NO IT'S NOT CRAZY. Fuck. There has to be a cheap and easy way that makes great cement! There just has to! Do I absolutely have to bake it? Nobodies found a way to get around that? The Romans concrete could be baked at half the temperature used for Portland Cement, according to research. And after that recipe was lost to time, medieval architects obviously found a way to make fine cement and mortar.
>>979046
THIS BOARD IS ABOUT SELF SUFFICIENCY AND EDUCATION, DUDE. I'm poor as fuck, man! What do you want me to, buy everything I need with magical money I pulled out my ass?!
>>979094
No, I was thinking of using a used plastic kiddy pool or a few full size trash cans. Do you guys even improvise?
>>979095
Thanks, I use a Kindle so that book could give me ideas. But I'd prefer to find a method of making cement that won't require me to fire my materials at forge level heat.
Surely there's a cement that can be used for concrete that doesn't require this.
What about an epoxy that doesn't require baking to cure?
Look guys I know I'm stupid but let's face it, there just HAS to be a way!
>>979112
Cement requires pretty hefty infrastructure to manufacture. How about considering why you need cement in the first place. Can what you're trying to accomplish be done with other materials? I'm sure you don't just want cement for cement's sake, you want to build something, right?
>>979112
Listen, if you're doing anything worthwhile with concrete or cement, it's something that you don't want to fuck up. Why? Because the fuck up will be vastly more costly than just doing it right the first time. If you fuck up some prison wine, just throw it out. Fuck up a patio or a foundation? Good luck ripping it all out and doing it over, assuming something didn't collapse.
Cement and concrete are two things that you can't rig; you need the right ingredients, the right equipment, and the right know how.
If you just want to make some blocks to use as stepping stones, go for it. But you will not make anything large scale or at all durable with that "I make cheap wine in soda bottles" mentality.
>>979094
its like you have never been to /diy. actually its like you don't even know what /diy means
>>979112
>There has to be a cheap and easy way that makes great cement!
You bake limestone. But for a "cheap and easy" scale of that, you won't be making very much cement. And you'll spend far more per unit of cement than it would cost to buy, because actual cement manufacturers take advantage of economies of scale and efficiency techniques that you'd need millions of dollars of investment to do yourself. And without a large investment in quality control, you likely won't be matching store-bought cement on quality either.
>There just has to! Do I absolutely have to bake it? Nobodies found a way to get around that?
Cement is an anhydrous salt that combines with water to form hard hydrate crystals that lock aggregate pieces together into a strong bulk material. Since Earth has water just about everywhere, any materials you'd be able to dig out have already been hydrated, and as such, they must be dehydrated before being used in cement. Baking is the cheap and easy way to do that. The two exceptions are fresh volcanic ash and fly ash, which are byproducts of processes that baked the water out already. You can buy fly ash in bulk, but it's usually used in a blend with cement rather than a complete replacement.
>What about an epoxy that doesn't require baking to cure?
Sure. That just costs orders of magnitude more than cement. There's a reason why cement-based mixtures have been the go-to material for durable bulk construction in every civilization that can make it for thousands of years.
>>979117
Well the thing is it doesn't even have to be cement! I could just find a different ingredient to add to the others and get a cheap chemical that would turn that ingredient into a binder with the same effect so it does what I want! See? I'm looking for alternatives! I'm pretty convinced that most of the stuff in the business and commercial world is just pure bullshit meant to keep people busy and at a job rather than being bored and having nothing to do. I know that if I have to buy a lab and fabricate a fucking factory to make cement, it would be easier and cheaper just to buy some. And no, it's not that I want to build something.... it's that I'm anticipating the NEED to build or repair something.
>>979119
Well there's an easy fix for that, it's as simple as making some and testing it first. Right?
I get what you're saying, being cautious is indeed the smart thing to do because if it fucks up I'd be out a lot more time, cash, and sweat. It's just that there has to be a better way and its probably staring us in the face.
And by the way, the only thing wrong with my mentality is when I get salty and mad about people thinking my booze methods are dumb because they ignorantly think my alcohol is inferior. My wine tastes great! Plus it's a 50 cent bottle of wine that tastes better than a 10 dollar bottle.
>>979121
Thanks for the backup.
>>979137
You're right but just because that's how it's been done ever since concrete was rediscovered doesn't mean there's not a better way. I wouldn't be building a skyscraper foundation FFS
Also like I said the ways the Romans made theirs was much more energy efficient because it required less than half the temperature! Maybe there's a way to do it without needing to bake something at all? We don't know, dude. And you only bake it to remove moisture, then you put that moisture back in?? What the fuck. This is why I asked about epoxy.
Yes epoxy is pricey but I'm trying to open anons minds a bit. We need new ideas.
>>979137
Also, those same advantages that the cement manufacturers have are their disadvantages as well.
When you have a factory that cost you countless millions and you find out about an easier way to get the same result, but you already have a huge factory you're invested in and your cement still works fine...
You're not really inclined to build a new factory. See what I mean? No need to change, so you don't.
an 80lb bag of cement/portland is what, 5-7bucks? adding your own stone and sand leaves you at what, 240lbs of concrete for said price?
Suck it up bro. Buy the cement.
That is as DIY you need to get to save money. As a project or hobby sure it might be fun to craft some cement, but to penny-pinch? no.
>>979112
>>979121
unless one has experience planning, preparing, and pouring a foundation, that is not something you do yourself....screwing up a driveway is one thing, but you cannot simply tear out and replace a foundation after you find out you effed it up because you didn't know what you were doing
>>979166
>I could just find a different ingredient
This is not an area of low-hanging fruit. Billions of dollars are at stake in this market, and there are lots of rather smart people employed full time doing just this.
>It's just that there has to be a better way and its probably staring us in the face.
Cement and basic concrete are mature technologies. Simple variations on the basic mix are well-understood and already used for different things. It's not like, say, aviation was a hundred years ago or computers were in the 70s, where an individual enthusiast could do something significant to the market out of their garage.
>the ways the Romans made theirs was much more energy efficient
It was actually far less efficient than modern methods. Wood fires vented to the air are much less efficient than heat-recapturing sealed kilns, even if they produce a lower temperature.
>Maybe there's a way to do it without needing to bake something at all? We don't know, dude. And you only bake it to remove moisture, then you put that moisture back in?? What the fuck.
The thing is, "we" do know. Very well in fact. That you don't get this point suggests that you don't know enough about what's going on to have meaningful input to a discussion of it, let alone tinker with recipes. Kindly look it up on Wikipedia or something. The information is easily available on the Internet.
>You're not really inclined to build a new factory. See what I mean? No need to change, so you don't.
The cement industry is worth hundreds of billions of dollars per year. If you find a better way, you patent it and make a killing undercutting everyone else. An individual production facility is peanuts to investors who would stand to gain from financing something better.
Maybe rammed earth is more your style, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rammed_earth
>>979175
YES YOU'RE RIGHT..... but guys, people have built houses that have lasted millennia. People have built stone walls with mortar and cement that wasn't Portland. Yea 7 bucks is cheap but the knowledge I'd learn about how to do that myself would be priceless. Besides, if I'm unemployed and trying to build a home from salvaged rocks and wood, I'd benefit greatly from a little help from you guys! Please?
Look at the picture!! People made mortar that's for all intents and purposes concrete thousands of years ago! How the fuck did they do this? There are stone walls like this millennia old! WHAT'S THE RECIPE?!
>>979180
Honestly my foundation would probably be dirt or rock and the home supported by pillars that way I could jack the house up and shim the pillars as they shifted over time. It would be more stable than a concrete foundation by a long shot, at least with the concrete we use today. I've seen how concrete cracks and falls apart after only a decade or two. Pillars on large flat rocks are vastly superior foundations for homes because you can shim them as the conditions change. With concrete your fucked.
And you guys are thinking I'm the stupid one ;P
It's ok, I still loev you guys :3
NOW TELL ME WHAT I WANT TO KNOW
is mortar basically concrete? Mortar used in castle walls is under more stress than any sidewalk or concrete foundation I've seen and they stay strong for millennia. Can I use that instead?
Anyone know the medieval mortar recipe?
>>979184
Medieval mortar sucks by modern standards of strength and durability (A thick stone wall is under much less stress than a sidewalk, which must withstand bending loads. You can do the math yourself.). Classical mortar was basically modern mortar prepared by hand rather than machine and without engineered optimization. The various mortars used through history that actually set to something hard (as opposed to things like clay that just dries) all use something like portland cement that hydrates when mixed with water, and required either baking or fresh volcanic ash.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=medieval+mortar+recipe
>>979182
>this is not an area of low hanging fruit
APPARENTLY IT IS lol see what I just said about castle walls? This picture is of the fucking great wall of China. Who knows how old that mortar is, I bet if we used that instead of concrete for home foundations they would last a lot longer!
>Cement and basic concrete are mature technologies.
No they fucking aren't. Roman concrete structures that have been in the ocean thousands of years still haven't broken apart. Roman concrete buildings made almost entirely of concrete still haven't crumbled down. Roman aquaducts made or held together with concrete are still functional to this day.
If anything, concrete technology has gone BACKWARDS. Compared to ancient concrete buildings, ours are the primitive ones! Now what, you think you're the one educating me?
>It was actually far less efficient than modern methods.
If their methods of making concrete were so good they last thousands of years, then their concrete methods are vastly more efficient because in order for us to achieve the same effect we'd have to replace the concrete several times to get our structures to last as long.
>The thing is, "we" do know.
It's painfully obvious we don't know shit. Our concrete can't even last a century.
>The cement industry is worth hundreds of billions of dollars per year.
Only because they are ripping people off astronomically. If they sold concrete that worked half as good as Roman concrete, guess what? It wouldn't be worth hundreds of billions each year because people would only need to replace their concrete once every thousand years!
>Maybe rammed earth is more your style, though.
Maybe I should ram my hand across your head, Jesus Christ. You'd probably not even feel it, your so dense.
THERE IS A BETTER WAY
You cannot deny that after this post
>>979190
Touche about the bending loads.
>>979184
>that way I could jack the house up
Anyone know what this stuff is?
Geopolymer...?
I've heard about "high density concrete" too.
And apparently Iran is becoming an industry leader in high strength concrete, trying to keep us burgers from fucking with their business with bunker buster bombs.
http://www.wired.com/2007/04/irans_superconc/
>>979195
Problem?
Using a jack and shimmimg pillars seems like it's a cheaper solution than having to build an ENTIRELY NEW foundation.
>>979191
>This picture is of the fucking great wall of China. Who knows how old that mortar is
You know, that's the sort of thing you could find out about in a few seconds, right? That wall is made of stone blocks held together with a mixture of quicklime and rice starch. It is all around inferior to modern building techniques. The blocks form a pure compressive structure, and such don't need mortar to stand. The mortar just prevents the blocks from loosening and falling out over time.
>>979200
>The mortar just prevents the blocks from loosening and falling out over time.
So, in other words, that mortar has been under stress from multiple vectors and forces for thousands of years and doesn't need replacing to this day... and according to you it's inferior to modern mortar?
Have you ever considered you've bought into propaganda and been taught lies meant to keep a false industry afloat? Ever heard of General Motors buying out an entire electric bus industry to force people to buy cars? Ever heard of GM also stopping producing an engine because it was too efficient and had too much longevity? These things actually happened, dude.
YOU SHOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER THAT EVERYTHING YOU'VE BEEN TAUGHT ABOUT CONCRETE AND CEMENT IS A LIE.
Jesus Christ dude, they teach you what they want you to believe.
Now get your head out of your ignorant ass and help me figure out a way to make a better concrete cheaper than portand.
>>979203
>that mortar has been under stress from multiple vectors and forces for thousands of years and doesn't need replacing to this day
No. The blocks bear all the load. The mortar just has to sit there and keep the blocks from wiggling around as the seasons change. It is under virtually no stress. That section of the wall has been maintained as a historical/tourist site. The untouched walls are crumbling away. Ancient chinese mortar is weaker and less durable than modern mortar. Go ahead and try it yourself.
The reason that big old structures last is that stone is durable (and they were designed as pure compressive structures since they knew that their mortar sucked), and before proper engineering, things had to be made very solid to avoid risks of failure. Nowadays, engineers can determine exactly how strong a structure has to be, how long it needs to last, and design something that meets the needs and nothing more (since unnecessary construction is expencive).
God Damn OP, I'm coming off an acid trip and I'm trying to figure out what the fuck you are on. You obviously have internet access so you aren't as poor as you think you are. You really must be an actual bona fide idiot to come here demanding that we inform you of a way to do something that, if at all possible, would change the world. You are so shortsighted that this doesn't seem a huge ask to you. I'm actually impressed, sincerely. I have lurked 4chan since forever and I haven't seen anything quite like this. Bravo.
>>979203
Dude really this is surreal. You are perhaps the least aware individual I have ever encountered, spewing your babby's first conspiracy theory bullshit. If you think its possible, prove the world wrong. Don't come here being all demanding when you obviously cannot even help your self.
>>979213
He said the mortar keeps the stones from falling out of the wall which means in addition to the compressive load there's other loads. And seeing as how those walls are millennia old... It's just apparent that we don't make things like we used to. I do understand that they aren't super powerful cements made from magical techniques, I'm just frustrated as hell, man! I want to be able to do things that it looks like I'm just not going to be able to do. I could get clay for free, I might be able to get plenty of wood by scavenging pallets, I can get sand and rocks for free.... but the cement is the damn thorn in my side! I'm angry as fuck over it and yes I'm being a little bitch about it. The world of chemical interactions is huge and ancient civilizations built things that for some reason we can't replicate, and strangely this is a time period when ingenuity, longevity, and efficiency appears to be sabotaged so please pardon my frustration.
>>979214
I asked a reasonable question that's very simple and uses recipes literally thousands of years old, and I keep getting shot down! I know it appears I'm being unreasonable, but can't you understand why I'm a little flustered?
>if at all possible, would change the world
What, like the Baghdad Batteries? Proof that batteries existed a millennia ago, and that the technology was somehow lost? Why do you think that was? A conspiracy? A state secret that perished after the Mongols wiped Baghdad off the earth, along with practically 90% of the world's historical records, for no reason? Those scrolls didn't do anything to the Mongols. I'm sorry, I'm just very frustrated that people think I'm stupid when it's obvious there are conspiracies and hidden agendas that hold back humanities progress. I'm a salty person because I've actually been conspired against and been backstabbed by people I trusted for NO DISCERNIBLE REASON. Yes, I'm an asshole. And you need to understand that you're ignorant of our past. You know Eli Whitney didn't invent the cotton gin? The cotton gin is practically as old as cotton. Remember Bill Gates stealing Steve Jobs ideas, taking money and recognition away from a guy who otherwise could have advanced the world quicker? You think I'm a foil hatter for no damn reason?
So, not only is /diy/ telling me to buy something instead of helping me learn a way I could do it myself better, they are upset that I'm frustrated about the blatant violation of the boards spirit and actual purpose for existing, and in spite of all the evidence that large corporations withhold technology and formulas that would make the world a better place in every way, I've got assholes like you thinking I'm ridiculous for calling the posters here naive??
I can understand that you're experiences might not be the same as mine... but I've got reason to be paranoid, distrustful, and upset at the complete lack of out of the box thinking.
>>979217
Don't come to /diy/ and tell someone trying to find a way to do-it-himself to forget about it and just pay someone else.
You guys are COMPLETELY ignoring the very purpose of this board, thinking I'm unreasonable for getting upset, and not even trying to imagine a way it would be possible.
Seriously, guys. I've used a load of examples to prove to you all that our current marketplace concrete recipes are absolutely inferior to others and you don't even find it slightly suspicious that a multibillion dollar industry isn't advancing humanity by selling a recipe that would require an order of magnitude less of their products and free up countless millions of working hours... and you're not slightly suspicious? Not a little?
And you still think it's totally impossible for someone to make their own concrete that lasts a little longer than the bullshit they scam you into buying?
Yea I'm mad because you guys are literally not helping! You're giving me information I could have easily found on Google even though in my OP post I admitted I don't know industry terms that would help me find it myself!
I believe I'm righteously upset.
http://www.survival-manual.com/cement.php
>>979229
nah you're just a shithead
We need to update the Bingo card...
Suppose OP wants to homestead. Implies they have the stick-to-it required.
> navigate to remote area
> fell the trees, pull the stumps, establish water supply
> build shelter
> insists on reinventing over-terrain transport of materials, reinventing carpentry, reinventing mortar
And yet does not have the patience to spend a few lazy afternoons, in air conditioned mom's basement, "researching" (i.e. googling) information that is not only brain dead simple to find, but has already been established, vetted, practiced, described, AND made available in a full-motion visual step-by-step format on Youtube.
>>979121
>/diy
its /diy/ you faggot, this isnt reddit
>>979229
It is really cute that you think you can imagine problems away, are you 12 or something?
Suppose OP has limestone on his backyard, a whole continent of it, and a small furnace with as much wood as a forest at hand.
He could manage to collect, transport, chop wood, bake, grind and store one bucket of class A cement in 4-5 hours
That's 16lb of cement. The bag has 80lb, so that's about 25 hours to make something that cost 7 dollars.
That's an average of 3,2lb of cement at 0,28 cent of productivity per hour. IF he has a continent of limestone on his backyard, and a small furnace with as much wood as a forest at hand.
The really stupid fact here, is that OP believes he can build a castle with home made cement that last millenials... and be alive to enjoy it by the time he finish it.
>>979431
This one really is something else, huh? He should be studied by science to figure out what caused his condition.
>>978964
>but how do I make cement?
It is pretty easy to make, but in large quantities it can be bothersome. It is still manually intense if you don't have easy-to-use tools like a cement mixer or wheel barrows. For cooking it, you can use wood fires in open pits.
http://www.survival-manual.com/cement.php
>>979438
Read the thread fuckface, he wants us to magically shit out a way to make cement without fire that doesn't exist. You are almost as bad as OP.
>>979431
80 lb bag of cement costs about $1.50 at my local Lowes I think.
Thread is entertaining, but slightly infuriating.
>OP is unwilling to listen to anons who are giving good solid information, keeps spouting the same shit over and over
>Just kidding, the more he says the crazier he sounds
OP, if you think there is a better magical way to do what you want to do, for cheaper, and stronger, with additional resilience, then do the following:
Begin researching this stuff on google
Look into research papers and university publications
Start going to school for higher education
Get a degree in some sort of engineering
Do a thesis on concrete studies
Invent something new and awesome
Patent it and me millions
Stop worrying about money
How old does /diy/ think the OP is?
My guess is about 16
Wow
>I am too cheap to buy a sack of cement so I investigate hauling in lime and baking that shit after crushing it.
You may as well forget about the cement since you are so poor and just build it out of whatever is in the yard
I need a /diy/ apple pie recipe, please.
I know I need flour, sugar, butter and apples... but how do I make apples?
Pozzolonic cement OP. That's the "magical" shit the Romans used. It's not so magical. Basically a mixture of volcanic ash among other things. You just need a good source of volcanic ash. So unless you live next to Mount Vesuvius this may be extermely difficult if not impossible to procure.
An alternative would be to use fly ash from powerplants. Also barn lime will supposedly work too. There are recipes all over the internet. I haven't personally used either because it would be stupid when you can just buy several bags of cement for less than it costs to drive to the nearest powerplant and you can buy ready made Type K (lime cement).
But hey, its possible. Just retarded.
>>979214
i'm just here to 2nd your comment
>>979440
>Read the thread
Why? The question was answered. There's no more reason to read the thread after that.
>>979229
hey mate your taking this a little too seriously, if you want free cement steal a bag from a building site on the weekend instead of shitposting. They over-order and throw it out anyway because its so cheap.
Honestly your going way too deep into this whole idea of diy, you can diy your own concrete slabs etc instead of getting a contractor in but making actual cement? whats the point?
Next you'll want to make electrical wires because you dont want to buy rolls of tested, rated, purpose made materials. You'll be on here asking how to make insulation from dirt to put on your bits of old fencing wire.
then when someone tells you how to do it you'll question it, DO I REALLY HAVE TO DO THAT!?!...
>>979758
Lol'd, thanks for that imagery.
>find dumpster full of old clothes hangars
>strings them together for his 120 service line in his mud-hut
>decides that instead of insulation, he's gonna go with knob and tube style wiring
>offsets wires with twigs
>>979121
There are some things you can /diy/ and some things you can't, at least realistically. Pouring the footings is one of those things, you need several people to do it (depending on the size of the footings of course) and you need a shit load of concrete, more than a man and a small mixer can do, why do you think they have those big trucks?
>>979224
>we don't make things like we used to
No shit mate, we don't make things to last because we don't want them to last, styles and technologies come and go so fast that we would be replacing structures even if we did continue to build them like ancient structures. Do you think we knock down more homes because they are no longer viable to live in, or because someone else wants to build their own home there?
You know what not building stuff like the great wall of china, the pyramids, ancient castles has gotten us? Walls that can be 90mm thick, able to route wires and plumbing through them, outer walls that can be insulated, come in various cladding other than stone, all of this making the building lighter, which in turn makes the footings thinner, meaning we are using less resources, it's not that we can't build our buildings to last centuries, it's that we don't want to, because it's just a waste. Not to mention the size problem, imagine the home you live in now, now move all the walls in 1m, how much space you've got left? Nice and cosy is it? Now get rid of all the internal wiring, plumbing and ducting, either have it run along the floors or on the outside of the walls or don't have it all, now wait until summer, those stones heating up nice and hot aren't they, they'll stay hot for days too, so good luck with being cold in winter and hot in summer. That's what it would be like if we built our homes like those ancient structures you like so much, they would last forever but would be shit.
In the end, yes, you can build your own home, there are plenty of ways to make walls and plenty of resources for ways to do it dirt cheap (like rammed earth that you previously shot down for some reason) there is a method that all you need is old tiers (that you can get for free) a sledge hammer and earth. But in the end there are going to be SOME costs, you can't build a house for free, unless its some mud shack (and guaranteed that won't last a millennia)
What is wrong with you people? I have my own firecement recipe, yes it took a while to figure out but this is not rocket science, it's only chemistry, which is rocket science, but it's not that hard.
OP, you will need a kiln. A horizontal one. You are going to need to gasify stuff at high temperatures. You can use regular gypsum and magnesium wire (or nickle chromium) attached to a variable power supply of your own design. Start from there. That is legally 70% of the work, 10% is learning how to make proper aggregate and the rest is experimentation and original research.
>>979906
And you need about $200-400 because you probably will experiment with the furnace a few times and buying ceramic couplers to attach to electronic diagnostic equipment will make things easier to deal with.
>>979906
The degree of difficulty here is finding the correct blend for his uses. Making sure its not a soupy mess like in that episode of mash. Being strong enough to hold up a house. But not necessarily needing to be a 2 mile long suspension bridge level of quality.
>>979932
Calculations by scaling, finding errors across scales and between your calculations and measurements, and interpolating over the errors, then building sample structures and destroying them won't be enough?
All he should need to worry about are
-temperature
-air quality
-drying rates
Then
-mechanics
-fatigue failure
Then
-dynamics
Okay i've only done furnaces before, but it can't be that complicated.
>>979906
If you had read the thread, you retard, you would have seen that the dumbass OP wants to make cement without fucking fire. That is the issue. Kindly stop wasting everyone's fucking time and read first.
>>979347
never been to reddit but I hear those fags are into grammar corrections to set themselves apart from others so they appear important
>>979980
We told you the fucking recipe. Bake fucking limestone and crush it. Sorry reality isn't good enough for you. I was tought that in grade school. Its pretty fucking basic.
One thing to remember is if you use concrete structurally it needs to pass certain tests or you will have to tear down the structure. Getting something condemned sucks ass.
>>979906
This guy doesn't even want to spend $7 on a bag of concrete, you really expect him to buy all the stuff to make it himself?
>>978964
Brick mason here
If you ever deside to lay brick remember to cut the concrete/mortor in a triangle shape with two quick cuts of the trouh then lift from the bottem of the triangle.
Then shake off the exsess with a quick flip of the wrist.
To butter a brick make use the top half of the trough and make a perimid on bith sides of the brick
>tfw caluses to bad to use a touch screen
Wow.
For the folks who want to do something with concrete on a budget, and who are saner than Op, there are some simple steps.
1-research and plan. Really. Go to the library and read home improvement books, watch youtube, don't rush.
2-prepare your site and forms yourself. This is where a lot of time is spent, which equals a lot money if you are getting someone else to do it. Follow reliable plans, don't try something "clever" to reinvent the wheel when the industry has already brought this science to a high level.
3-shop around. Do you need to buy it by the bagful and mix in a rented machine? Are there one or more companies in the area who can deliver a half-yard or more in a premix truck or site-mix truck? (they are pretty common) Call around! get bids!
4-finish it yourself.
>>979980
You'll probably have to go look at some concrete textbooks and research journals.
>>980319
This is sage advice, any time spent in preparation of your forms, getting the right mix, having everything prepared for the pour and having everything you need for any scenario will save you double that time on trying to fix it later. No point in rushing through the prep, making a shitty mould/form only to get half way through the pour to find out you run out of concrete, have it leak, not have the right tools on hand or whatever else might happen and have the whole thing ruined meaning you have to not only start over, but dick up the shit you fucked up.
>>980175
I agree with him though.
>bake limestone!
>it's easy!
Well then tell us HOW to bake limestone, at what temperature, for how long, using what processes, etc.
After that, tell us what quantity limestone gets mixed with what quantity whatever else, and how to get that stuff, and then how to store it, etc.
And also tell us how different ratios of different components affect final product or working product.
Because, you know, it's so easy…
Please kill yourself
>>980352
What part of he doesn't want to bake it do you not understand? You seem to be as retarded as OP, which makes me wonder if you are, in fact, OP.
>>979960
What's the difference between fire and a conveyer belt electric furnace?
>>980352
OP, I am
>>979906
Yes, I accept being called retarded because you really are mad. You have to read the research, cement is a potentially very complicated thing developed over hundreds of years.
IF YOU WANT, I am now remembering magnesium cement exists. Study chemistry then dive in, the Chinese like it, they don't like to think, so they write exact recipes, and it is simpler to make and potentially stronger and more durable and versatile. You don't need to bake like.
But.
But. When dealing with Chinese, don't expect creative help. You will get graphs saying "this does that" and exact analysis into formulas and absolutely nothing more, they literally do not perform explorative research.
Luckily Americans invented and still do all the important work, so look for their papers.
However, you need to do other chemical processes, and IIRC you need to use a lot of heat, but you can be clever with certain chemical reactions.
>>980475
Well that's halfway intelligible. I'm sure there is some chemical process that leads to a cement substitute that fits your description. What I don't get is why you honestly expect the answer here? Have you seen the people who hang around here? It really comes down to me thinking you are barking up the wrong cactus, so to speak. I mean, have you seen how many of them have reposted the same shit because they can't be added to read the thread? Good luck anyway. Hope you invent something cool.
>>980482
Assed, my new phone is still a prude.
>>978964
small landscape construction business owner here.
if your mixing more than two yards of cement just pay for a cement truck to come out, its more expensive but gets the job done in one day and the mix is more consistent.
mixing more then two yards with a shovel and mixer fucking sucks. my record is 6 yards by myself and i was young, stupid, and had the time to spend, and i will never do it again when i can just shell out 600$ for the truck and 200 for some laborers.
that being said hand mixing is much cheaper if your not paying laborers to mix it for you, but you can only mix so much a day, and concrete is much stronger if you pour the whole thing in one go.
when i mix by hand i mix 3 aggregate, 2 sand, and 1 Portland.
but once again if your mixing more than 2 yards especially by yourself (speaking as a business owner) is a huge waste of time and energy. just pay for a truck and a couple flunkies to ferry.
>>979112
look up lime kilns on google, its how people used to do it a few hundred years ago, i saw tons of old lime kilns when i used to live in bongland.
but the amount of energy it takes to quarry limestone, pulverize it, build a kiln, gather fuel, burn the fuel, isnt worth less than the 8-12 bucks for a bag of portland. why not take advantage of the fruits of civilization?
>>979112
You silly ding dong, yes it took a lower temperature to make. They also had luck in that they lived in a region where volcanoes would spew out great ash that had the right composition to make that possible and was in a state that allowed them to skip steps mass manufacturing has to.
>>980517
This man speaks the truth. Mixing anything more than a couple of post footings isn't worth the time and effort. Unless you have an army of peasants (like say a warlord calling himself king) to gather all the shit you need then producing large quantities of concrete is going to be fucking retarded and 5 years from now when it cracks, crumbles and falls to pieces you will wish you did it right the first time.
>>980482
I am not the OP....
>>980607
Oh, I should have known. You made too much sense.
>>978964
perhaps OP is thinking of concrete-like mixtures of fine aggregate and sodium silicate solution (waterglass)?
>>978964
Cement is dirt cheap you dumb nigger, you won't be able to make anything even close to the quality and consistency of a commercial product yourself.
problem number 1
no way any first world country is going to allow you to literally make your own cement for your slab, the consented plans will specify a grade of concrete, that is only available from a commercial supplier that has independent testing and shit
problem number 2
have you seen a cement plant? the dozens and dozens of excavators, loaders, and dumptrucks required to physically make the amount of concrete ingredients you need? how many crusher cylinders do you have? how many excavators? for the price you would spend producing one bag of cement you could sally on down to the hardware store and buy 10.
seriously, how much concrete do you think you could feasibly mix by hand in a day? and entire house slab? you'd need 15 men and 6 mixers, running at least 24 hours finishing and laying at the same time, compared to ordering a concrete truck, with superior cement, which is in and out in an hour and leaves you to just finish it.
Can you guys see that this OP is doing nothing but trolling? Every post has ratcheted up the bait, step by step, trying to get some emotional response.
Probably they're not getting enough attention from their parents at home or something.
>>978964
There is no way you could get the required amount of ballast and cement you would need. I built a extension recently and to do the footings and screed I used 9 tonnes of ballast and countless bags of cement. How about you make a mud hut? http://www.stationgossip.com/2016/03/man-lives-in-mud-hut-he-built-just.html
>>981882
No I am pretty sure OP is just retarded. Since you can't tell that means you might be too.
Im so sick of faggots like op that think diy means do every single little thing from the ground up, /diy/ is more "im making a foundation for a house, should i do x or y in a or b, not how do i do the most fucking ghetto thing like making cement, honestly if you cant afford it dont fucking do it, economics of scale, feasability and plain common sense is a sorely lacking here, every day all day... fucking useless pieces of shit faggot roodypoos
>>983130
Lol'd at roodypoos
>>978964
For any home application, I seriously doubt you are going to save any money or get any better quality concrete trying to manufacture your own cement.
You will see far far far (infinitely far) more difference in the quality from the mix design than from your cement.
Just keep your water content low, and if you really need to save a few bucks or look into really well performing concrete (which you almost certainly don't) look into getting silica fume or fly ash. They are cheaper than cement, and are the key to super high performance concrete.
If possible, consider water reducers or super plasticizers as they will enable you to get a lower w/C ratio but keep the same workability. Contractor suppliers may have them, or else you'd have to go online. (Sorry not much help with that, I get all mine donated)
Source: grad student nearly done with their MS thesis doing research on concrete.
>>979191
Wow, you have no idea what you are talking about. Structures like that have lasted a long time not because of the quality of the materials but simply the structure itself. Comparing the Great Wall of China to a foundation is laughable.
Modern concrete far surpasses ancient 'concrete' in strength, durability, and overall quality.
The only reasons it doesn't last as long is because to get more strength and usefulness out of it we add loads of steel to it, which eventually corrodes and damages the concrete. Also we drive heavy ass shit on it that the ancient Chinese/romans couldn't have even imagined.
Unfortunately millennia lasting concrete with no steel would have very limited applications. Although synthetic fibers, frp, and basalt are changing that.
>>984463
>Modern concrete far surpasses ancient 'concrete' in strength, durability, and overall quality.
OP here, you're fucking wrong. Roman concrete aqueducts that are millennia old are still functional to this day, and water is incredibly erosive.
It's all over the internet dude, just Google "Roman concrete"! There are experts that agree their recipe is far superior to our own!
>>984459
Thanks for the advice. Volcanic ash was used in Roman concrete and I believe when they made concrete pillars for ports, they packed wooden tubes with dry mix and let seawater permeate it gradually.
>>984459
What proportion of fly ash or silica fume? This is actually a very helpful post, I've been very curious about high performance concrete.
What about mixing in denatured alcohol? Say, half water half denatured alcohol.. it would evaporate very quickly.
It would cost more, but if it makes a significantly superior concrete it would be well worth it.
>>984479
Water strengthens concrete breh
>>984463
Romans built the pillars of this bridge around 140 AD.
>>984484
About 7-10% replacement of the cement with silica fume is generally considered optimal. Fly ash can be much more variable, as the product itself is more variable, many people have good luck with anywhere from 5-20% replacement.
Personally, I use 10% replacement of both (80C/10SF/10FA) and get concrete that will reach about 10,000 psi compressive strength in 28 days.
>>984484
Also, I have never heard of people getting positive results from adding in denatured alcohol into the mixing water.
The increased workability you'd get would be far offset by the strength loss, concrete doesn't really like non-potable mixing water and will lose strength based on additional capillary voids [voids in the crystal structure caused by excess fluid in the mix] which might be worse with alcohol than water.
I'd suggest trying to get better workability by changing the W/C ratio (remember too high is bad, very bad), adding chemicals like super plasticizer (if you have them), or simply reducing the amount of fine aggregate (usually sand) in the mix.
>>984492
And it's probably been refurbished over and over again through the years, I doubt most of it (other than the stones) is original. Not to mention the old parts of that structure are all compressive force, something that even shitty concrete is good at, modern concrete is about withstanding sheering and twisting force, something that concrete isn't very good at but is much better because of things like steel reinforcement and pre/post tensioning.
>>984611
Exactly
>>984551
Percentages by weight or by volume?
Also, is using very fine sand preferable to using coarse sand?
Will the sands particle size necessitate a change in the amount you use?
>>984789
Weight
>>984791
Typically you wouldn't want to use a very fine sand (depending on your definition of fine) because it will adversely affect your workability and consume the cement paste in your mix. A normal concrete sand is going to give you good results and be fairly cheap (especially if you are using high volumes and can get it from the supplier not home depot).
Silica fume and fly ash will give you the advantages you'd expect from smaller particles (orders of magnitude smaller even than cement particles) without the drawbacks that fine sand will give.
>>984791
If you wanted to make the absolute optimum mix, you would adjust the sand based on the particle size distribution, but the difference that will make is pretty minimal compared to the rest of the ingredients (or curing conditions, or mixing procedure, or a lot of other variables).
Long story short, the sand, while important, is by far the least important element of the concrete mix, and a little more or less won't have much effect.
>>978978
by weight right? or amurican volume?
>>978964
quikrete is like $3 for an 80 pound bag. why not just buy some?
Holy shit people falling for this bait. I stopped scrolling after he said he wanted to make his own cement instead of buying it in bags for $5.
>>984815
Thanks, man.
Will ash in general benefit concrete? Like, if I use wood ash, would that do something good? Or even cigarette ash? It's just a concentrated carbon source, right?
>>984821
Another point of particle size is that the largest particles are aggregate. I'm looking at a piece of weathered concrete that's probably around 30 years old. Our A/C unit is on it. The condensed water drains out of it frequently and the aggregate(rocks) are lasting much longer than the rest of the mix. Can't you combine the strength of the aggregate and cement enough so that they wear around the same? Concrete is kinda like a porn stars makeup... once the outer coating gets wiped off you you see a bunch of unsightly bumps
Also, I read Roman concrete was so strong because of lots of hard labor. That labor let them use less water, and the compression helped too. Compression as in people stomping wet concrete like it was grapes for wine.
>>984902
...because the US has the monopoly on space and, thus, the sole provider of volumetric measurement.
>>984973
Ash in general won't benefit concrete, Fly ash is an industrial byproduct which actually (despite being called ash) is not composed of carbon, concentrated or no. The advantage of fly ash is that it is composed of silica, aluminum, and calcium. All of which are important elements in the chemical reactions which give concrete it's strength. The reactions create calcium silicate hydrates and calcium aluminate hydrates which harden into the crystals which bind everything together.
As far as surface wear of the concrete is concerned, unless you choose a coarse aggregate which is very weak, the rock will almost always be more durable than the cement paste. There are a few things you can do to increase the durability however.
A) Use a low w/c ratio, too much water ruins durability
B) Allow the concrete to cure in as good of an environment as you can, don't let it dry out or have extreme temp changes for some time after pouring
C) Don't overfinish the concrete, trying to get the surface too smooth will bring the cement paste to the top away from the coarse agg.
D) Using silica fume will help as well
just break out your chem set
Typical constituents of Portland cement
Cement chemists notation under CCN.
Cement CCN Mass %
Calcium oxide, CaO C 61–67%
Silicon dioxide, SiO2 S 19–23%
Aluminum oxide, Al2O3 A 2.5–6%
Ferric oxide, Fe2O3 F 0–6%
Sulfate S̅ 1.5–4.5%
>>984973
For you, if you wanted to fix up your concrete, you could certainly powerwash it and put a new layer of concrete or cement paste over the top, making sure to cure it adequately. Or it would probably be faster and easier to do some kind of epoxy chipseal over the top of it.
The performance of the concrete is probably fine though, just kind of ugly like you said.
I'm not too sure about Roman concrete, other than that they used naturally occurring pozzolans (as opposed to man-made like SF and FA) and didn't use metal reinforcement. I'd love to find out the actual strength of existing Roman concrete though, I can't find it online. I wouldn't be surprised if historians writing papers exaggerate it a bit, but there's no denying it is impressive for lasting as long as it has. Although for comparison, the Hoover Dam (which is made with relatively shitty concrete) is designed for a 4000 yr service life, and is expected to last well over 10000 years
>>985020
5-17 MPa in compression depending on the silica content of the the region the concrete was made in.
silca is a good replacement for FA
http://www.academia.edu/1214963/The_toughness_of_Imperial_Roman_concrete
>>985023
the 5-17MPa is mean compressive.
modulus of rupture ( strength in tension) was less than 1MPa
>>985024
Thanks for looking that up, I was very curious. 17 Mpa is impressive for the technology they had at the time, but as I expected, not very comparable to modern concrete. I've made concrete up to about 70 MPa, and some extremely high performance concrete can be made nowadays to 30ksi, over 200 MPa, which is nearly the yield strength of mild steel. Both of those are not widely used in most construction outside of cutting edge high rise concrete buildings
SERIOUS QUESTION HERE
What about making cement bricks?
Yes, no aggregate. No filler rocks. Actual cement bricks.
It's been mentioned that /diy/ concrete is best done by contractors, but that's only because of the advantages consistency and quickness provides. Mixing up a hundred pounds of concrete by yourself is indeed a such a chore that it's worth the money to hire labor...
But what about making your own bricks from your own mix? You can negate the disadvantages and keep almost all the positives because you can stop and start whenever you want with no problems.
...anyone?
>>984952
In the /diy/ intent of the thread OP is right. There must be a way to make solid constructions without being forced to buy from mainstream corporations.
It's like those /diy/ brew threads. Sure it's cheaper to buy craft beer from some hipster brewery, but you know you're being overcharged and you know you could probably do it yourself.
>>985095
That seems more sensible, because as you said you can do it in small batches. The biggest concern with it is keeping them consistent to make sure they all have the same strength, but if you're measuring everything properly it shouldn't be too much of a concern. It would probably still be cheaper to buy the bricks, but this is /diy/ and if you wanted to do it yourself it should be possible.
>>985095
>What about making cement bricks?
~$1 per forty-pound block.
>>985095
What's the advantage of not using aggregate? The aggregate to aggregate interaction in concrete is what provides most of it's strength. Even using sand or small aggregate (like is used in cinder blocks) would be helpful. Besides aggregate is way cheaper than cement.
It does bring up a pretty decent point though, with an alright set up you could make a lot of bricks quickly and inexpensively.
I think that is a decent option, as long as your mix, mixing procedure, and curing set up is adequate.
>>985159
You're right of course, CMU is pretty cheap compared to how making it yourself would be. But just want to clarify, those aren't cement blocks, they still have sand and small aggregate in them.
>>985095
>no aggregate no filler
you mean like aircrete? it's great, i rate it higher than cinderblocks.
but you'd only 'do it yourself' for completely inside-out retarded reasons.
like if you'd sold out your video blog to a 'rugged individualist' clothing brand but the sheeple are bored of $500 axe reviews.
>>985234
It is comparatively pretty weak though, although it'd be a great filler material. You couldn't (or at least almost certainly couldn't) make it yourself though, as you would need expensive aeration equipment, and an autoclave, not to mention the know-how to do it.
