So I've just got a kit with cutting, heating, welding tips, hoses, regulators, etc. My main question is about the tanks themselves, as well as actual welding methods.
>better to buy or rent the tanks?
>what size tanks are good for most average general use, cutting once in awhile and welding once in awhile?
>where to buy or acquire weld rods? I've heard of people using bicycle spokes and other random shit like clothes hangers.
>want to try aluminum as well, apparently need flux and a size 000 tip. True?
>>966772
you need to say what country you are in, different countries have different laws about owning and operating gas welding equipment
>>966799
Right, sorry about that.
Good ole America! Where the eagles fly free and the burgers are juicy.
>>966830
i also would have accepted "Where the burgers fly free and the eagles are juicy."
http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-torch-kit-with-oxygen-and-acetylene-tanks-65818.html
>>966873
>buying controlled explosive flammables from Harbor Freight
>>966875
the victor knockoff hoses/regulator/torch are fine
you get the tanks empty anyway and exchange them at the local welding place
>oxyacetylene welding
Why
There's a reason nobody does this anymore.
>>966830
>Right, sorry about that.
>Good ole America!
okay then. location = USA
in the USA, the only tanks you technically "own" are the little 10/20 tanks like in the port-a-torch kits (pic related). but you don't get to KEEP them, because you exchange them at the welding gas place for filled ones,,, but the price you pay to exchange tanks is the only cost, there is no cost just for "holding" these tanks.
all larger sizes of tanks are leased from a welding shop on a yearly basis, and you must return to that one shop to get refills. And there is a yearly charge just for holding these tanks; that is the lease fee. You also exchange these tanks when empty, so don't go spray-painting them pretty colors or anything like that. They aren't really "yours".
When you get the filled tanks at the shop, you are supposed to transport tanks in a not-enclosed area. That means NOT in your car trunk. And not really in the passenger area of your car/truck, but most places let that go if that's the way you gotta do it. Or they can deliver tanks to your home also, but that costs more money.
welding rods you get at the place you buy gas. you can use shit metal like coat-hangers but it's not better than real filler rod.
copper-coated steel filler rod is cheap; HIGH-quality rod won't have any copper coloring. but cheap rod works for most stuff.
Also note: *most* home fire insurance policies forbid keeping industrial (flammable) gasses inside the home's living areas. (this includes storing or using BBQ propane tanks inside the house; you're not supposed to do it, ever). Just so you know....
Continued in next post....
>>966892
...continuing....
Aluminum welding with gas: yes you can. It's difficult and can be expensive tho.
Flux: most local shops don't sell this (because most people never bother to try to torch-weld aluminum) but aluminum welding flux is salt-based. You can make your own by combining table salt into water until you get a paste. That's it. The flux needs to be washed off after welding is done.
Filler rod: you just use a thin piece of the same aluminum alloy you are joining, or a softer alloy. Welding shops do sell TIG rod for aluminum.
Thin aluminum sheet: cannot be welded. the aluminum expands a lot when hot, and contracts so much when it cools that the weld just cracks through. You can weld 6061 extrusions easily but welding broad sheets of 6061 thinner than about 1/8" without having it crack or warp upon cooling is almost impossible.
The authority: go look at a site called tinmantech for examples of amazing torch-welding aluminum. He makes joining thin sheet look very very easy, and it takes a lot of practice.
Tinmantech sells some [expen$ive] goggles just for torch-welding aluminum. I have a pair and they work fantastic: they filter away the orange glow from the salt-based flux. It makes the task way way easier. It is still tough tho because aluminum tends to blow through VERY easily.
Tinmantech also sells flux. You can try it if you want, I have. It doesn't work drastically better than plain table salt paste tho.
-------
Why gas weld:
I think a gas torch is the most versatile welding method to have if you can pick only one,,,, but all of them can do stuff that the others won't do well. You just have to avoid the sucky situations with whatever you got.
The thing that gas torches suck at is welding into corners; the flame just won't blow into a corner,,,, but a MIG or stick wire sticks into there easily. And a TIG is way better for welding thin aluminum sheet, becuase it won't blow through the metal. ....but there you go.
>>966899
yet more continuation....
I got the tinmantech goggles (they cost $150 when I bought mine) because I was interested in torch-welding aluminum, but it didn't turn out to be as useful as I thought. The reason is that most aluminum alloy stock you get is heat-treated, which greatly increases its stiffness. When you weld or braze aluminum, the heat-treatment get ruined around the weld area, and the metal there turns very soft. It stays soft until the whole part is heat-treated again, and doing that at home is pretty difficult (requires a big-enough oven for it...). I built lots of other small stuff from steel, but because of the heat-treating reason never really built much of anything using aluminum.
Using the goggles is fascinating. They look just like regular green lenses but aren't. With those goggles you can see that at around 900F the aluminum surface turns light brown, and at around 1050F the surface begins to wrinkle. The flux glow is totally gone, you don't see that at all. --And then a moment later (at ~1100F) the aluminum blows through. Oh well. Even with those fancy goggles, it takes a lot of practice.
Steel (regular carbon steel, not nickel / stainless) does not need heat-treating, it goes back to its original hardness. Steel is also WAY easier to torch-weld, since it needs no flux, and it doesn't blow through nearly as easily. Steel works like you want it to, and aluminum is a bitch.
Torch-welding thin steel is not ideal since it tends to oxidize on the back side of the metal a lot. Brass-brazing or hard-soldering is a much better way of joining thin steel parts (which is why classic bicycle frames were brazed and not welded).
>>966888
the only reason I ever hear is that its too expensive. Electrical equipment is cheaper for a shop to run/maintain, BUT for a hobbyist the versatility and low initial cost of an oxyfuel rig cant be beat
>>966907
This is why you use a plasma cutter. Works way better on aluminium sheet and steel sheet.
Oxy is good for thicker steel.
>source I'm in welding school at my local cc and we just finished Oxy cutting and plasma cutting and are about to move to carbon air arc.
>>967158
>can't be beat
Literally any Tig welder even scratch start will blow it out of the water. I guess for certain white metal welding and silver smith shit it's not so bad but idk. Price wise a Tig welder setup will cost similar to a large multi use torch set.
>>967243
I also have heard for cast iron people use oxy torches too but idk.
>>967241
>This is why you use a plasma cutter. Works way better on aluminium sheet and steel sheet.
well,,, a plasma cutter is for CUTTING... not welding at all.
and plasma cutters do work better for cutting than a torch; the only metal that oxy-acetylene torches cut well is carbon steel. you can burn ragged holes in most any other kind of metal, but there's no way you can get a clean cut like in carbon steel. And even in carbon steel, a torch is not as good as plasma: a torch leaves a burned (carbonized) edge that will ruin saw blades and milling bits if you try to saw or mill through it.
a TIG will work better on thin aluminum, but then, a gas torch setup costs maybe $300 with another $100 for a jewelry torch (to weld tiny/thin stuff, like paper clips). A square-wave TIG will cost you at least $1500+ new + $300 for a gas tank, and needs a high-power socket to plug in to.
~~~~~~~~~~
Also I'd point out that gasless migs suck.
People buy these things because they think it's easy, since they don't have to mess with any gas tanks at all--but flux-core MIG sucks donkey balls. It is very difficult to get good results with, ESPECIALLY with a low-power shit-quality welder.
,,,,,,,
If you get a MIG, do yourself a favor and get one that can run gas--and then go buy at least one tank of shielding gas, so you can see for yourself how good the thing is supposed to work.
>>967243
Yeah, if all you want to do is weld together pre-cut pieces a TIG setup is great. Assuming you already have the electrical service the price will even be comparable.
My point is that if you add up all of the stuff an oxy-fuel rig can do and try to replicate it with just electric machines you would be spending a ton more money.
Like heating up non-conductive materials.
Cutting something underwater.
Heating up stuck nuts and bolts is a huge hobbiest use.
You can use it basically anywhere you can drag it
>>967327
Dual shield Flux core mig is the tits. Gas and Flux core combo together is great.
>>966892
>That means NOT in your car trunk. And not really in the passenger area of your car/truck
Everytime I show up to get co2 from Linweld and they're like homebrewer? I'm like nah aquarium and they're like oh...
But yeah 20lb tank gets put in the trunk everytime.
Also I think the initial first time buy is more expensive because they charge a deposit on the tank in case it never comes back. But everytime after that its just paying for the contents of a new tank.
>>967158
An arc welder will do everything an oxy rig can do better except cutting thick shit and welding cast iron for cheaper in a lot of cases.
>>967158
The welds are shit compared to tig, mig, or stick unless you are a professional.
>>967603
Yeah a buzz box will do a lot more work and quicker. Minus the cutting.
>>966907
>With those goggles you can see that at around 900F the aluminum surface turns light brown, and at around 1050F the surface begins to wrinkle. The flux glow is totally gone, you don't see that at all. --And then a moment later (at ~1100F) the aluminum blows through
aluminum has a refractory oxide meaning the surface oxidization has a higher melting temperature than the base metal so that means you maybe didnt prep the surface enough and it was probably ready to weld when it wrinkled
>>967158
oxy is never better for cost stick is steapest
>>967241
so you have probably never used a plasma cutter on aluminum because the best way to cut it is with a shear
>>967327
>Also I'd point out that gasless migs suck.
this
also tig is great for aluminum but takes lots of practice before being competent again stick is cheapest starting setup
>>967369
>Heating up stuck nuts and bolts is a huge hobbiest use.
propane torch works for that as well and doesnt require bottle leases Lincoln AC-225 and a box of 6010 or 7018 and your welding what you want for less than 500 canadian dollarydoos
>>967595
co2 is inert not so much of explosion hazard
>>967158
>the only reason I ever hear is that its too expensive. Electrical equipment is cheaper for a shop to run/maintain,
that's not the reason. the reason that gas torches are less popular is that they are more dangerous to operate. just misadjusting the fuel line pressure can cause an explosion.
In the US at least,,,,,,, lot of shops that do mostly electric welding still do have oxy-acetylene torches on hand--since if you are using a mig or stick and blow thorugh a part, you can't really fix it well with the mig/stick machine. You have to use the gas torch to patch the hole. But the shop wants the workers to avoid using the torch as much as possible, for the safety reason.
you can get very nice welds with a gas torch, no grinding required.... gas torches and TIGs both have the advantage that you can control the heat and filler metal separately.
I think that if you can only get one, a gas torch is best. Some countries tho like UK don't allow them at home, so those people are stuck with flux-core MIGs.
I'd have a TIG & MIG too if I could justify the cost.
>>967694
Propane torches are shit at heating up big nuts and bolts. I.e. Car suspension parts. An oxy-fuel torch will heat nuts up fast enough that most of the heat is concentrated in the nut making them FAR easier to remove. Propane torches just heat up everywhere and don't really make it much easier most of the time.
Really I don't know where all of this fear and loathing comes from for gas welding rigs. Are people just so timid anymore that they can't handle them?
>>967615
Gas welding is about as hard as TIG.
>>967603
>>967644
Minus the cutting AND heating, but only next to an outlet or high wattage generator.
>>966772
thats mother fucking steve belial. id recognize that stache anywhere
>>967694
>aluminum has a refractory oxide meaning the surface oxidization has a higher melting temperature than the base metal
yea but you can't really clean that off, because it reforms nearly instantly.
the salt flux is corrosive and eats through it as soon as the underlying metal turns to liquid. with a gas torch, that's the best you can do.
A square-wave TIG arc breaks up the oxide surface, which is a nice side-effect of using a TIG
>>967768
>Really I don't know where all of this fear and loathing comes from for gas welding rigs. A
its because in most civilized countries, if you get hurt on the job your employer has to pay for the cost of injuries...$$$$$$$... so it is the employer that doesn't want you using a gas torch unless you absolutely have to. In the US at least, everybody who does welding for a living knows *how* to use an axy-acet torch--they just don't normally use one.
>>967768
>Are people just so timid anymore that they can't handle them?
No, it's just that welding has moved on from the 19th century.
>>967821
My point is that having an oxy-fuel rig is a good investment on ops part even if he only learns how to weld with it then stashes it away. Yes there are better processes for welding out there. But every shop worth a shit has one for a good reason. I applaud op for their interest in learning a valuable skill.
>>967836
Yeah, people really don't need an easy way to heat materials up anymore.
>>967581
Completely fucking pointless.
>>967821
We use them in A/C and Refrigeration work. high Sil-phos metal to braze the copper joints on the refrigerant lines together. Holds well under high pressure.
>>966873
No, just no. Buy a victors or a Radnor set. Esab is pretty good too.
>>966772
It's better to buy the tanks.
Buy the welding rods from a welding supply store.
>>want to try aluminum as well, apparently need flux and a size 000 tip. True?
Flux to stop contamination, but generally speaking, the torch depends on the thickness of the metal and how fast you weld.
>>967811
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVv8a_FVIOU
Some really good fucking info in here, thanks all you anons! Getting excited to play around with the set!
>>966888
this, I only use mine as a gas axe now.
gassless MIG is too easy these days
>>970159
doesn't help that most of the cheap welder makers call them 'MIG welders' even with no gas options
>>970159
bear in mind brother that there are many many guys who weld as opposed to "welders"
>>970951
You mean bird shit spatter welders?
>>967950
Somebody has obviously never used dual shield. It's the best for big shit. Fast, easy cleanup and its cheap
