What's the cheapest way to make a watertight wood barrel?
I was thinking straight walls would be much easier than curved ones. Less profiling to do on the planks.
And what about hoops? Making metal hoops seems like it would be too much work and too pricey, probably cheaper to buy some than get the tools to make some. What could you use as a substitute? This barrel has wooden hoops but I don't think I'd trust that. What about hoops made from manila rope? Tightened with a wench and whatever knot is best?
idunno if it's plausible to cooper yourself a barrel. from what i understand it takes a lot of skill/practice and just the right tools and experience. it's long tradition that took centuries to perfect, idunno if you'll be able to just make it up as you go along anon
>>963337
Rip a 12 degree along the side of board. Chop up board into 12 to 16 parts. Lay boards out on tape - sticky side up. Apply glue to joints and roll your lay up into a circle. Cut out appropriatey sized bottom and glue to your cylinder. Apply resin to inside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjSqfgLJayw
>>963342
Not really, the secret is to have a lot of jigs and work with well seasoned wood. You can watch videos of people doing it on YouTube.
I don't think I'd want to make commercial quantities of barrels, just a few to age booze in if my brewing hobby takes me into producing artisan quantities.
>>963347
Resin and glue might be a no-no, I'd want to use the barrels to age alcohol.
A little food safe glue and resin might not be dangerous, but I wouldn't want it to fuck up the taste.
I was thinking if you could cut the boards in such a way that when they expand from water saturation, they press fit themselves into being watertight might be neat and no hoops would be necessary if it was perfected.
>>963350
>I was thinking if you could cut the boards in such a way that when they expand from water saturation, they press fit themselves into being watertight might be neat and no hoops would be necessary if it was perfected.
Might want to look into old wooden boat techniques too. I know a few used the expanded wood to make seals.
![blend-2[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/LDNDVAf.jpg "blend-2[1].jpg")
>>963348
>just a few to age booze in if my brewing hobby takes me into producing artisan quantities.
I live in California wine country. The quality vinters spend $400 - $1,000 on quality oak barrels custom built and charred per spec. Some use oak spirals like pic related as a cheaper alternative.
A small distillery just opened up and they do the same. Farm out the work of making barrels so they can concentrate on what they do best.
That $400 - $1,000 barrel gets sold off for $60 after they're done using it. So much oak barrel furniture and planters on craigslist.
>>963350
Would clay work instead of glue?
You can get old whiskey barrels for less than fifty bucks since they aren't allowed to reuse them.
>>963369
What, why can't they reuse them? That's crazy talk!
>>963464
Same reason wine makers can't reuse them. They can't be cleaned and sterilized like stainless. Also the tannins from the oak are already leeched out. A second batch wouldn't taste the same.
>>963369
Rum is made in old whisky barrels.
For a hobbyist it would be easier to use spirals as suggested above or wood chips.
>>963470
I'm pretty sure whiskey is stored in barrels at like 180 proof, then cut when bottled, so sterilizing isn't really an issue. Also pretty sure that other liquors are stored/aged in them for as many uses as can be gotten from them.
>>963337
take a large chunk of wood, set it on one side, put some termites on it and wait
>>963481
It's bourbon that requires a new barrel, nothing much else to my knowledge. Which still means plenty of cheap barrels.
>>963359
If the wine companies are selling it, that means it's not suitable to age wine in anymore.
>$400-1000 a barrel
Yea, that's kinda why I want to know a simple way to make my own.
And no way, there's a huge market for buying old wine barrels and they go much higher than $60. Plus I don't live anywhere near wine country so shipping would be outrageous.
>>963365
Clay dissolves in water, it has to be fired.
>>963369
Yes, they resuse them as much as they can. Some places use the same barrels for FIFTY YEARS or even longer!! And good luck getting good results with an old wine barrel that was used for whisky and recharred a dozen times.
>>963479
So a used barrel Could have started out as a wine bottle in France, then used for whisky and recharred who knows how many times, then used to make a few batches of rum?
THIS is why I'm not considering buying a used barrel. You'd get absolutely SHIT wine from it because the barrel is considered unusable by the market.
I'm fairly sure the European producers don't have to worry about cleaning things and just reuse everything. Could be wrong tho
>>963775
OP here, I've heard of wine barrels being used for like a hundred years.
Of course that's only a handful of wines that have been run through it though because they age so long
>>963510
OP, you're talking about cooperage, and I think you know that already. There is no easy, affordable way to do it. There are/were machines that would cut the angle on the staves, but for one barrel a plane and angle gauge would do; maybe a jig, but that's more work. You don't have to use metal for the hoops, wood would be fine for a one-off. The rough part would be the lid, specifically cutting the rabbet inside the end of the staves. YouTube should have something to show the process, but there will be a learning curve, and it won't be as easy as you're hoping.
>>963350
The resin and glue are not needed if you keep a metal band around the wooden strips.
Also you need to make a dado in the bottom of the strips to fit the lid, if you clamp the lid in between the strips instead of gluing it to the bottom it will most likely be watertight.
After some googling i found this, this is exactly what I was thinking about just make it a little bigger. I just forgot that you need to char the wood.
>>963942
i forgot the link, if you know something about woodworking you are able to figure it out from this video.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/532672701/diy-mini-whiskey-barrel/description
>>963944
OP here
The assembly gif was amazing, thanks
>>963369
Bourbon is required to be made in virgin barrels (and only in charred white oak), but other alcoholic beverages are under no such restriction, and in fact the source of new barrels in Europe is mostly used Bourbon barrels from the United States.
>>964095
There's lots of such definitions for different types of booze, I read you as implying bourbon is the only one, but I guess on second thought you meant virgin barrels. It became necessary as a consumer protection thong because people would sell 'whiskey' that was really rubbing alcohol with molasses in it or whatever.
>>964097
>consumer protection thong
Kek Isn't this a problem that drinking whiskey will take care of?
Don't whisky producers break down barrels to staves and then reassemble in Scotland? Also they 'de-Bourbonize' new casks before using them for Scotch.
Anyway OP you can buy smaller barrels for cheaper but what you get out of it tends to suck.
>>964120
I've got no idea, but if they break the barrels down and reassemble them, that means they might as well just start making their own.
It would end up being less trouble than doing all that bullshit and transferring them back to their country, then putting them together again.
>>964663
Do you think barrels are hard to assemble? The issue is sourcing enough wood from Europe, not manufacturing barrels.
>>965089
Yes, I think it's a pain in the ass to break down and reassemble barrels. The only thing they would need to make their own after getting the knowledge learned from breaking down and reassembly, would be a knowing how to run a band saw. Getting a few angle jigs and curve jigs, too.
>>963337
all barrels are hand made.
this should give you an indication of the level of difficulty.
I suppose it's not that hard and your barrel will last at least a year if you diy. but the trick is in making something that can last 10+ years.
>>965089
yes. they are hard to make. just because you've seen a video of people making them doesnt mean you know what to do.
>>963337
>manila rope
no. that barrel does not have wooden hoops. nor is it a barrel. those are stave holders. they hold the staves during manufacture. the hoops are steel. the staves need to be held under tension. if you want to use rope, it might last a few hours before the rope stretches out and the barrel bursts.
>>964663
>throw it away generation.
Bet you think it easier for bars just to bin all the kegs then sending them back empty to the brewer.
why does your barrel need to be round?
>>965194
I guess it doesn't... If I ever build a barrel it's not like I'll build a bunch... but isn't a cylinder the most efficient use of resources? And it's easier to transport, you can roll it. I imagine a properly made cylindrical barrel would be less prone to leaking than a square barrel with the same build quality.
>>965193
Good point, but if it's more cost effective to throw away the barrels than it might be worth it.
>>965191
Yes making traditional barrels IS that.. but the thread isn't about traditional barrel making.
I was thinking about cutting the staves in a way so that they have joints that lock up when expanded.. the rope would be for holding it together during assembly and wetting the wood, but also I'd want to keep the ropes on for looks, something to grip, extra security, etc. Thanks for your input :)
>>965089
Also, why use wood from Europe? I'd just use wood from America because it would be cheaper. Oak is oak, right?
Also, OP here. Thank you all so much for the feedback :)
>>963337
I really think barrel making came from ship lapping.. or maybe it was the other way around?
depends on the types of wood working tools you got OP? I'd say its very possible if you've got some basics.. now I just googled this and can't find an answer.. is there a reason why a barrel is round??
Also OP. are you going to char the inside of your barrel? Thing is, with wooden ships, at first they leak, and you have to bilge the water out, but once the wood has soaked, it tightens up and stops leaking, and won't leak unless something breaks.
I'd say if you soaked your barrel for 48 hours before putting in your liquids, that once they where in it wouldn't leak?
as far as banding goes, maybe industrial pipe clamps?. you know the ones you see on the sides of the road when they're installing water mains? they are huge hose clamps basically. bonus points would be you can tighten them down if you start seeing a leak at one end.
>>965634
then if you don't want to make a barrel, I'm not sure why you made this thread.
>>965634
barrels are wheels. the shape of them makes sense because they can easily be turned and the low surface area means it has less friction especially on uneven surfaces. a full barrel can weight well over 100kg which is more than one person can safely lift. the round shape is also for even distribution of the pressure against all sides and their load bearing forces.
when you make a barrel, it leaks. they are designed to leak. they need to be hydrated which makes the wood expand. this presses the staves against each other forming a seal. any attempts to improve this design will only weaken the barrel.
>I am lazy and I think i am smart enough to improve on a design that has worked for thousands of years
just buy a stainless keg, fill with booze and add charred woodchips if you dont want to follow the proceedure. if there is one thing i have learnt about building shit, it is to learn how to do it the way the experts do it and master that, following all of their procedures. if you try to "improve" on something that you've not even begun to learn then you will fail.
i agree
>just buy a stainless keg, fill with booze and add charred woodchips
also the pressure on the sides would be enormous from the weight of the liquid that's the primary reason it is round. the metal bars would need to be hot fitted so that thay shrink around the barrel as they cool.
barrels aren't necessarily designed to leak at least ones that have been properly treated with tar wont but cheap ones that aren't designed to hold liquids will have there contents evaporate within a year.
>>965643
I don't think there's a connection between wood boat building and barrel making the way you think there is. I don't know why I'm thinking that, though.
Dude I've got no idea why barrels are rounded on the sides the way they are. The only reason I can think is to make transportation easier, a smaller rolling surface would be easier to push I guess?
I'm not sure about charring... not sure if I want to. What's the point? Odds are they started charring to clean the barrel and they marketed it as a special feature; it was probably a gimmick when it started out.
I don't like the look of worm clamps on a booze barrel, I think manilla rope would look much more aesthetic.
there is no connection between cooperage and boat wright other than general making of planks. even there preferred method of molding the planks is different. coopers tend to burn and fold and ship wrights like to steam and bend. the cooper shaves every other plank to make a round shape and the ship wright will overlap the planks. the only waterproofing on a barrel is either a thin layer of tar or wax. where as a boat has a tar on the outer surface, wax on the inner surface, various types of treated fibrous materials in between the boards. also coopers only put the rings around the barrel as the thing that holds the finished product together and a boat is built around a skeleton.
>cooper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper_%28profession%29
>shipwright
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipbuilding
two different things
>>965659
evaporation happens in professional barrels. its what turns the barrel storage sheds black. there's a fungi that feeds off alcohol vapors.
