None of the grounds on any of my outlets work, and I was starting to get spotty power at two of them, so i looked in the service panel, and this is what I found.
I think the source of moisture is coming from a vent in an air duct that connects directly to the a/c evaporator coil, which blows tons of moisture and even liquid water out of it. I'm definitely going to seal that off.
As for fixing the ground/neutral buses here, I'm not electrician but i have a decent understanding of home wiring, though never tackled anything like this. Would it be feasible to just pull these old buses out and put new ones in, clean up the wires, and all that? Or how else should I proceed?
>>1012072
>Or how else should I proceed?
Contact your landlord, or if you're the ho.eowner, contact a LICENSED electrician and get your shit up to code. Don't try to fuck with the bus. Don't try to wire anything yourself. you're endangering yourself and others that may enter your house.
>>1012096
That's what I was thinking, just thought I would get different opinions first.
>>1012098
Do you have a miltimeter? I would also recomend testing the ground bus in there to something you know is grounded like a metal water pipe.
>>1012096
Electrician here, do this just kill the main like he said and don't be a idiot.
>>1012104
Yeah, I do.
I have three grounds actually, two grounded two rods outside, and one ground on a water pipe. Still don't have any grounds in the outlets. Not sure where the issue is yet, but I figured this is a good enough place to start.
>>1012082
What the hell? Standard residential electrical work is not magic, why is this board filled with people that act like it is? If you have any diy capability you should be able to handle most of it. I get that there are liability issues, and this could arguably be considered non-standard, but damn! You electrical union shills need to go away. If anon turns off the mains breaker, makes sure all his nuts and bolts bolts are tight but not stripped, and replaces part for part and wire for wire he will do zero damage. If the problem is not this, okay, then see about a pro, but damn...
>>1012112
I know right? it seems DIY is full of wanna-be know-it-alls who just want to give shitty advice.
I also agree with other anons, as long as you turn off the main supply to the panel first, you can safely remove those bad bus bars and replace them with new ones and spray some anti oxidant on them. also need to locate the source of the moisture and fix it to eliminate future problems
if you replace the bus bars clean up that area where they contact the panel. not only does it need to bond good to the ground conductor it needs to bond well to the panel itself thats why its screwed directly into the panels metal.
clean that shit up, re strip those wires to bare metal reattach to the bus bars turn power back on and test your outlets... if you have problems still then as last anon said consult a pro
its not fuckin rocket science people. thats why its DIY
>>1012096
>>1012112
There are some things you shouldn't DIY.
I'll list some reasons why:
* Electrical fire happens because you used the wrong or no circuit breaker and/or the wrong wiring/cabling. Insurance will not cover anything, and you will be fined for illegal electrical work.
* Someone touches an improperly connected class 1 appliance because the sockets are set up wrong and suffers ventricular fibrillation. they die or suffer permanent heart damage. Depending on your legislation you can get up to a $200k fine and several years imprisonment for that.
* Someone touches a faulty class 2 appliance that is not run through a proper RCBO and suffers ventricular fibrillation. they die or suffer permanent heart damage. Depending on your legislation you can get up to a $200k fine and several years imprisonment for that.
* Lightning strikes your home or an external current spike comes in because a storm tore down some power lines and your neighbor is backfeeding the grid with his generator and damages the insulation on some of your wiring because you installed the overvoltage protection wrong. A couple weeks later it gets really moist and something arcs in your mess of cables - your house catches fire. insurance will not cover anything, and you will be fined for illegal electrical work.
Now that I've informed you of all this you can also be charged with criminal negligence :^)
you're welcome
>>1012149
on the grounds that there is obviously no such thing as competent, professional sparks to be found in the entirety of murica anyway, judging by the state of that fucking mess .- I say, wire in. couldnt make it any much worse, f'sure.
like, do burgers think 'cable management' is the fucking TV remote, or what? A.fucking.mess. And y'all sh!t at (proper) football as well.
>>1012149
Uh huh.....
and none of that pertains to the pretty simple shit we're talking about here.
You sure did impress us with our electrical knowledge though man. I mean damn, did the president give you a medal for knowing all that stuff yet? If not, we'll start a petition.
>>1012167
assuming you're op
If I knew who you were I'd be legally required to call your power company.
just seein as to how this thread wouldn't exist if you was a certifiably competent person.
>>1012108
>three grounds
Explain this bullshit.
Are they all bonded to your panel? If they are more than 20' away from the panel it needs to be 6 gauge green colored wire.
did you just pound ground rods in and connect them to your outlets and wonder why you don't have ground?
>>1012149
And that's great, except I can read, and I can into Google, and since I'm not a millennial (or younger) I can EVEN go to a store and buy a book if I have to. My point being if you research a little, you'll find out that electrical work is not difficult. My point stands, if you have any diy ability at all general residential electrical work is not magic. Sure, you have to be aware that the liability is on you, but it is not difficult, is very rarely dangerous, and is entirely diyable.
>>1012234
of course you can get it to work, I don't doubt that for a second. maybe even without googling anything.
Problem is, there are a lot of caveats you need to be aware of, depending on what you are doing. and with an unstructured education (googling, reading books that are too specific, watching youtube videos) you're likely to overlook important caveats that may seem like trivial little things in your periphery that don't matter in your opinion.
that is all.
>>1012241
>that may seem like trivial little things in your periphery that don't matter in your opinion.
Like how he ignored that grounding question.
>>1012149
>* Electrical fire happens because you used the wrong or no circuit breaker and/or the wrong wiring/cabling. Insurance will not cover anything, and you will be fined for illegal electrical work.
You do not have to be licensed to do electrical work on your own property. It does need to be up to code though.
>* Someone touches an improperly connected class 1 appliance because the sockets are set up wrong and suffers ventricular fibrillation. they die or suffer permanent heart damage. Depending on your legislation you can get up to a $200k fine and several years imprisonment for that.
Or they get a minor shock and suffer no major health effects as a result.
>* Someone touches a faulty class 2 appliance that is not run through a proper RCBO and suffers ventricular fibrillation. they die or suffer permanent heart damage. Depending on your legislation you can get up to a $200k fine and several years imprisonment for that.
>RCBO not GFCI, oh you're a Europussy. This explains everything.
>* Lightning strikes your home or an external current spike comes in because a storm tore down some power lines and your neighbor is backfeeding the grid with his generator and damages the insulation on some of your wiring because you installed the overvoltage protection wrong. A couple weeks later it gets really moist and something arcs in your mess of cables - your house catches fire. insurance will not cover anything, and you will be fined for illegal electrical work.
Things that aren't going to ever happen for $1000, Alex.
>>1012244
Not OP. I have no idea why he'd have three grounds. Maybe the first two were union and it was in their contract?
>>1012258
>It does need to be up to code though.
Maybe depending on your jurisdiction. In some jurisdictions where you can do that you have to also get an electrician to certify that you are up to code. good luck with that.
>Or they get a minor shock and suffer no major health effects as a result.
the general lethal threshold at 50/60Hz AC is 70mA, while it is generally considered that anything north of 50mA is "lethally dangerous"
On a hot day your body resistance at 110V may easily be less than 1kOhm.
Let's do some simple arithmetic: V=IR.
110V / 1kOhm = 110mA. Bam, you're dead. at least you didn't suffer any major health effects as a result.
>>1012310
>inb4 but when I touch my multimeter...
>>1012195
>Are they all bonded to your panel?
Yes.
>If they are more than 20' away from the panel it needs to be 6 gauge green colored wire.
They're not.
>did you just pound ground rods in and connect them to your outlets and wonder why you don't have ground?
No, because I'm not the one who wired the house. Believe it or not, a CERTIFIED electrician wired it originally, and there actually have been quite a bit of problems with it from the start, that i've been sorting out over the last 10 years or so.
By the way, you wouldn't happen to want your dick sucked would you? Because i've been dying to blow a certified genius for quite a while.
>>1012149
Jesus fucking Christ it's landing a couple wires on a ground bus and checking continuity. A caveman could do it.
>>1012165
>electricians
The problem is the union. It rewards mediocrity and keeps those with a sense of pride and craftsmanship down by being tenure-centric.
Pic related is something I built in my off time to use as a functional display in my office. My installation projects are wired even cleaner.
>>1012310
I've taken 4160V (one leg to ground so 2400) from my elbow to my hip while falling down in a bigass piece of switchgear that was backfed (improper LOTO)
Anyway, you know what the fuck happened to me? My supervisor dragged my ass out, I laid down all fucking dizzy for a few minutes, then went back to work. "hurr durr haven't people gotten killed by 50V before?" Yeah I guess, but the chances of it happening are slim. Anyone with common sense isn't going to touch the hot to one nipple while the other is grounded so why are you out there spreading this bullshit?
>>1012333
what are those modules? I never saw anything like this in europe
>>1012337
Its frightening how people that don't know jack shit about electricity come with their anecdotes and tell people how nothing's gonna happen
Just because your boss is a jackass doesn't mean that was okay or responsible
It's not only your life on the line, but also that of the people around you
You're like the raw milkers that complain about the FDA or NRAs that complain about the CDC
>>1012402
>>don't know jack shit about electricity
>4 years as a generator mechanic for GE
>3 years as a NETA tester
>Piece of paper from 4 year university
>2 years and counting as a protection and controls engineer
Tell me more about how little I know, please.
Go be a pussy somewhere else, safety fag.
>>1012342
The blue boxes are protection relays like you'll find at utility substations and power plants, or were you talking about the stuff on the bottom?
>>1012416
Yeah, but you're not a LICENSED electrician, and you don't know minute details about local building codes, so fuck you faggot, you don't know shit.
>>1012416
Inb4 >pics with timestamp or it didn't happen
>>1012333
>Zip ties
Ew, hate those. It's not a custom panel so I guess it's not fair to ding you for not using panduit.
>>1012149
Lel fuck man.
What's next? You shouldn't redo your own floors because a fire may start and the flooring you used is more flammable than the shit you ripped up and so you owe the city?
You shouldn't mow your yard because bald eagles may want to use it as a hunting ground and you might kill one and goto jail for life?
You shouldn't empty the trash because the neighbors might like the look of it and sue you for $200k?
Fuck bruh
>>1012441
Panduit looks nicer to some, but it's just an added obstacle when trying to troubleshoot.
I like the anons zip ties much better.
>>1012416
>blah blah blah
>>1012337
>can't even loto correctly
anyway so what you are a big man because you took a big shock? an oap or some cunt with a pacemaker has a lot lower chance of survival
some people survive lightning strikes and some people are killed wiring telephones. i know a guy who can test 240ac bare handed and feels a 'tingle'
the point is have some fucking respect because it will kill you if you fuck around
>>1012448
I find zip ties worse since it's harder to trace a wire when some tard doesn't label the ends right or even at all.
>>1012437
Calm your bitchtits fuckwit; are we talking about some shitty NEC rules that 90% of electricians still manage to fuck up, or the actual knowledge of what's safe/unsafe? Cause I guarantee you, I could wire a house safer and cleaner than any member of the IBEW.
>>1012438
>Being this gay.
>>1012448
I find it quicker to cut zip ties and put them back than fiddling with knots inside panduit.
>>1012449
I got shocked my first month on the job, soooo.... I guess I missed my point, all I'm trying to say is that, while a healthy respect for electricity is important, you shouldn't be deathly afraid of it to the point that you refuse to touch anything. You gotta fuck with stuff learn about it.
>>1012464
Actually, I was on your side, anon. Hence the inb4. Greentext failed, might have made it clearer that it was sarcasm, but now you've just crossed over into standard autistic engineer that takes everything as a personal attack and everyone makes fun of him for it territory. Just kidding! Still behind you anon! (Since I'm gay and all, it just seems like the place to be.)
electrician here listening to these people say you shouldn't hire me.
They're probably right. What's the worst that can happen?
(fire, death, lifelong guilt, manslaughter charges).
Look, if you fuck up your plumbing you get a flood. If you fuck up your drywall you get an ugly/cold wall. You fuck up your roof, you get water damage.
You fuck up your electrical, or gas lines, and people can die. Those are the two things I don't think people should fuck with on a whim or because they're cheap.
>>1012333
You can only hate unions if you're ignorant of history. Weekends, abolishing of child labor, safety work rights, living wages, 40 hour work week, etc... were ALL ideas created by unions.
Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it. You know, people like you.
>>1012337
https://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html
Too bad you don't know it isn't the big shocks that are deadliest, but the small ones.
Anecdotal idiot.
>>1012472
Part of being a good engineer is being obsessive as fuck, so yeah I definitely know I come off as autistic. It is what it is.
>>1012443
Strawman argument. You're an idiot. Fuck you.
>>1012448
Nope. It's used for the opposite reason than you stated.
>>1012337
Ever heard of confirming LOTO? Or are you too much of a moron to verify it yourself and put your own lock on before proceeding? Oh wait, we already know the answer.
>>1012310
Inspectors are generally much more picky with DIY'ers.
>>1012416
Highly educated, not not smart enough to verify LOTO and put his own lock on. Shred your cards, they're not worth the inkjet paper you printed them on.
>>1012455
That's why we use panduit.
>>1012461
>You gotta fuck with stuff learn about it.
Is just about the most foolish thing I've ever heard anyone say about a conversation about electrical safety. You. are. a. fool.
I'm an IBEW electrician and I wouldn't let you any where near my house.
>>1012481
I know good engineers. Your attitude is worlds apart.
>>1012473
Well I think you're missing the point that just because you're an electrician, for one that doesn't mean you're any good at it. For another, it doesn't make you privy to some special, magical knowledge that nobody else has access too.
As you can see, plenty of people in this thread, while not technically electricians, work with electricity all the time and might even have more knowledge about it than you.
Secondly, you're an electrician, great. Are you a good one? I'm sure you even know electricians who suck at their job, just like everyone in this thread, including op who mentioned that an electrician wired his place up fucked up in the first place, might not really want to hire somebody who could potentially do a worse job than themselves. So they, uh, ya know, do it their self.
>>1012478
>you can only hate unions if...
Oh I can play this game!
Ever sat in a room with 9 dudes and been the only one working while you earn a quarter what they do?
Ever gotten laid off a job you love and are great at because some dipshit who doesn't give a fuck about his job got there 6 months before you and "outranks" you?
Ever had a client scream in your face cause the project isn't done on time but there is literally nothing you can do because your guys have "a right to" smoke breaks?
Ever had to pay a guy for TWO YEARS because the union fought you firing him even though he was a danger to everyone on site?
Unions helped when had no labor laws. They don't justify their existence anymore.
>>1012488
I bet you're loads of fun to work with.
They send you a lot of places on your own, don't they?
But you're probably right, you're the only person on the planet who has any true understanding of electricity. You ever think about getting out of the union gig and start working for NASA maybe? Wire their ships and stations and shit for them?
>>1012488
>I'm an IBEW electrician
>>1012494
Anon! You know they only send him places by himself because he's the best! It has nothing to do with being difficult...
>>1012497
Yeah, you know he has his union patch sewn to every jacket he owns, has two drawers full of his union t-shirts, never misses a union bike run, and hasn't been invited to a party outside of the union in 10 years.
>>1012499
Literally laughed out loud.
>>1012490
I take your point. But it's not magical knowledge. I have practical, physical experience that an engineer probably doesn't. Also, they teach us things in trade school they don't teach in university because we do hands-on practical work.
And Op had water leakage from ductwork. You're so biased that you blame that on the original electrician?
>>1012491
It's not a game.
Did labor laws protect the guy in this thread who's life was put on the line his first month on the job? Are labor laws adequately protecting people and their best interests?
On project deadlines: I was recently working at CNRL in northern alberta on some new construction. The general contractor Tecnicas Reunidas had their engineers underspec 90% of all the engineered ladder tray. As a result, 90% of the engineered tray was MASSIVELY overloaded and had to be replaced with bigger tray, which means repulling all the runs running through that tray.
Guess who will get the blame when it takes twice as long and costs twice as much? Union labor.
Everyone blames us for everything, when the fact is, the boots on the ground guys just work with the tools and instructions they're given.
>>1012494
I'll go hit myself in the head a couple times with something heavy so I can bring myself down to the level of your conversational skills.
>>1012496
>>1012497
>>1012499
>>1012502
You're breaking my heart! I'm going to go cry into my considerable pay cheques.
>>1012503
Is that you, AvE? Canadian... "pay cheques"?
>>1012506
What is "AvE"?
I would have said "cry into my considerable direct deposits" but it doesn't have the same ring to it.
>>1012503
>the boots on the ground guys just work with the tools and instructions they're given
It all makes sense then, you're given nothing but chairs and told to keep them warm. Doing God's work out there.
I'm not saying you're some knuckle dragging ape because you're an electrician, I'm saying most electricians are knuckle dragging apes. It is what it is.
Jesus Christ this thread
Why don't y'all to Sierra Leone or someshit where there is no code and leave those of us who opt to participate in a structured and safe society alone
>>1012558
You're in /diy/, if you want structure and safety you made a wrong turn somewhere, motherfucker.
>>1012535
It was the apes that underspec'd the tray. The boots on the ground just did the work they were told to do.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen poor... I was going to say engineering but really it's poor everything, blamed on the guys just doing what they're told.
Engineers excel at passing the buck.
>>1012558
Agreed.
>>1012575
You can do it yourself and do it correctly. Diy doesn't have to mean Do It shittY.
>>1012589
So is it the apish engineers who tell you to be astoundingly lazy and consistently under-perform at almost all of your expectations? Or is it just that the infallible leaders at the union hall that prevent shitheads from getting rightfully fired that perpetuates the filthy image of electricians? Again, not saying YOU as a person, saying YOU as a class of "professionals"
>>1012644
if "under-perform" means replacing underspec'd tray, then yes, that happened at their insistence.
I've seen several guys successfully fired for cause. If someone makes a minor mistake/infraction you have to go through the disciplinary procedure. This is to prevent abuse.
>>1012651
You've never seen a piece of shit stick around way past their welcome cause the steward threw a fit about them?
>>1012503
Nonunion master race reporting in. My dad owned a small electrical outfit for years and had a ton of shit that would be big news/terrorism now happen to him for not hiring union workers, pipe bombs and having his office burned down.
Now I'm a PM for a large controls contractor and every fucking job plays out like:
>Our low voltage nonunion electrician busts their ass and finish ahead of schedule with everything except wiring transformers because Fisk/whoever can't get their asses in gear.
>Union electrician shows up at 7, fucks off til about 8, gets started and gets 30 solid minutes of work in until it's time to pack up at 8:40 to get back to gangbox/muster area at 8:55 in time to get a headstart on 9:00 break.
>9:30 rolls around, back at work and they actually have to act busy until 10:30 so they can carve/sharpie "FUCKING SCABS" in the portashitters and drywall stacks before lunch at 10:50.
>Lunch until 11:00, back to work at 12:20, until 2:50.
Unless it's Friday, then the 8:30ish work window is replaced with a toolbox talk.
>Issue dozens of delay letters and get tons of change orders from schedule delay/acceleration or even high voltage for our panels from the MC, who marks it up to GC, who marks it up and back charges the EC.
I've had 2 large ones play out this way this year, and had 3 large ones last year. If you fucks worked more than 15 hours a week, you may actually learn and advance instead of being stuck in your specialized task.
>>1012660
>past their welcome
Ah, that's where we disagree. I think you should have a substantial reason to fire someone. Like I said, a disciplinary procedure is to prevent abuse.
There's nothing the steward can do about you laying them off though. So why didn't that happen?
>>1012683
That doesn't reflect anything I've ever witnessed. I've heard the stories, but I have yet to see it.
Now, if you want to talk non-union horror stories, I think you're going to find there's just as many and they're just as bad, and just as anecdotal.
What's not anecdotal is that unions are responsible for most of the changes between labor work now and labor work at the beginning of the industrial revolution.
Don't believe me? Look at third world manufacturing. They're just like we were a couple hundred years ago. They work like slaves, live like shit, and they die by the lot. No safety, no quality of life, no rights, no voice.
And it'll stay that way until they form unions and strike, strike, strike.
Your weekend and your wage were both bettered by the unions, even if you hate us our work still benefited you.
>>1012683
>low voltage electrician
Not an actual electrician
>>1012683
Same thing here. All I do is set up carrier equipment and fiber for POTT/DTT schemes so I'm a non-union (master race) "engineering" contingent for a unionized utility. l get on site at 7am, work to 12, go to lunch and back, then work till 7 and leave. The union guys work shorter hours, do easier work, have zero pride in their work, take a minimum of 6 breaks a day, have one dude whose entire job is to sit down and tell people when they can take breaks, and will intentionally fuck shit up towards the end of projects so they can get paid overtime to fix it. It's so frustrating. There's a few good guys here and there but they get shuffled out to management or non-union positions like mine so they don't make the rest of the electricians look bad.
>>1012125
>need to locate the source of the moisture
This. Maybe it's condensate from your a/c unit. It could be a bad weatherhead (overhead service point where wires enter conduit) or a bad meter box out in the rain. Get it fixed or this will happen again.
Messing with the service/meter box will require that you have the utility disconnect your power (and reconnect after an electrical inspection). This is ahead of the main breaker and is always hot.
>>1012892
I'm not exagerating, though. The guys here don't get ANYTHING done. I'm salaried so I work one or two long days and go home, but I get my shit done on schedule. You start to bring up the deadlines to these people and youll have the shop steward chew your ass over "schedule pressure and stress" like mother fucker if you can't handle stress how the fuck did you survive into adulthood? Working for a utility is surreal. It isn't real life.
>>1012478
>ignorant of history
that would be you bro
http://hispanicpundit.com/2005/09/21/economic-myths-the-5-day-work-week-and-the-8-hour-day/
>>1012906
You're salaried? No wonder you're ok with working like one of those 3rd world iphone making slaves that only gets one break in a 12 hour day. You can't compare that to hourly, 5 day a week work.
Secondly, I don't believe you only ever take lunch, and I don't believe the union guys take 6+ breaks a day.
>>1012939
Your apparently authorless blog post full of broken source links is pretty much meaningless.
The movement for the 8 hour work day preceded Ford by a long long time. This was a socialist, union back idea that people were fighting for a long time before Ford adopted it.
It's good that he adopted it. That really helped the movement, even if his feelings were anti-union and anti-socialist. The fact this is a good idea for capitalism is a boon to the idea.
>>1012939
Any source that uses "blah blah blah" is surely authoritative.
>>1012944
You can not believe whatever you want. That doesn't make it untrue. I met a guy (a lineman oddly enough) who didn't believe the world was round. Seriously though, it's like all you union fags have been babied for so long you don't know what hard work actually looks like. When I was a contractor I'd pull 80 to 90 hour weeks every now and then. Yeah it sucks but when you're 22 and bring home $2500 after a single week on the road, who cares that you're a little tired?
>>1012961
You're comparing me to a flat earther because I don't believe your obvious hyperbole?
You're so full of shit.
>>1012964
Ok. Have fun at daycare.
>>1012195
You can run one ground stake, but you have to test the resistance of the ground and most electricians don't have the equipment for that.
If you drive a second ground stake then you arent required to test the ground resistance. Almost all residential retrofits would have 2 ground rods for that reason
>>1012975
For any professionals in here, you can get a really good ground test set for under $1K
http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/megger/groundresistance/det3tc.htm
>>1013021
I'm not Union, but I strongly disadvocate someone rolling their own when they are trying to set up a TT network when they need a TNS or TNCS, and have no idea that these things are actually things
>>1012687
Yes, unions were a great thing at one time, now they're a shitty relic.
>>1012744
Most of them have journeyman licenses, usually only masters are the owners. They do our work well, much better than the times we've had to have JMEG (non union), Fisk, Brandt, Arrow, Native Solutions, or whoever. No one can seem to understand that a 22/2 can't be fucking swung on like Tarzan like MC cable. Not to mention trying to teach people how to wire our controllers/panels is almost impossible.
>Blog below.
Low voltage installer is how I got my job too, but I got lucky and got hired on young, didn't have time to get any license. Now I've got a PMP, EIT (Eligible for PE, but don't really care to study and take it), CEM, LEED green (could get the BD+C, but again meh) and am studying to take the GMAT for my MBA.
>I'm 31.
>>1013036
>LEED green
When I was in school this was a huge thing that everybody went for. I still don't know what it does for anybody though. Why'd you get it?
>>1013036
>Most of them have journeyman licenses, usually only masters are the owners. They do our work well, much better than the times we've had to have JMEG (non union), Fisk, Brandt, Arrow, Native Solutions, or whoever. No one can seem to understand that a 22/2 can't be fucking swung on like Tarzan like MC cable. Not to mention trying to teach people how to wire our controllers/panels is almost impossible.
Maybe they did a good job doing what they were told
But I'm concerned about the knowledge regarding safety
You have a bunch of certificates for responsible and economical pedestrianism and bycicle operation
But you don't have a license
And you complain how every truck driver is a lazy, fat slob, and that you could (and that we should let you) drive a semi
BTW, do you even have a bachelor's for your MBA? Just curious
>>1013041
It was extremely easy, I just got done for my CEM, and a decent amount of info is shared between both. And I was still in study mode. Also, my boss was willing to pay for it. I was on the engineering path for a while until I temporarily filled a management role during a mass exodus of people and then I just never left it. Pay was the same but there is a much higher ceiling.
>>1013060
I'd say every one of our low voltage subs is staffed almost entirely by ex sparkies that found out it pays better and is usually easier.
I have a bachelors in engineering. Got it from a good school around here on a nights/weekend program while I worked, my job paid for 2/3 of it on the condition I had to stay with them for 2 years after I finished. They will pay for the GMAT, and I want to another nights/weekend program with the best school in the state, but my job will only pay for a little under half of it. And then I'm forced to stay with them until it's done plus two years.
>Have to have one for the PMP and EIT, and helps for CEM.
Let's think about this for a minute... Why do we need a license to drive? Obviously this doesn't stop anyone at all from driving, if they're motivated, or on private property. But why the restriction? The idea is that you're supposed to be educated about the rules of the road before jumping in a car, potentially injuring yourself or others. If you have no clue about who has the right-of-way, etc, you're probably going to crash. If you do something stupid or illegal, the authorities can suspend your license--if they catch you driving again, you're going to jail. There's a reason the government requires a license to drive--it's to try to keep dangerous people off the road.
One thing I learned going through life is that electricity is a force to be respected.
Let's re-word what I just said. Why do we need a license to practice skills in various industries? Obviously this doesn't stop anyone at all from practicing said skill, if they're motivated, or on private property. The idea is that you're supposed to be educated about the potential dangers of the services provided, before potentially injuring others. If you have no clue about the forces you're working with (electricity, water, etc), you're probably going to hurt yourself, others or even cause severe property damage. If you do something stupid, the authorities can suspend your license--if they catch you practicing again, you're going to jail. There's a reason the government requires a license to practice--it's to try to keep dangerous/incompetent people out of the industry.
>inb4 tldr
If you lack the capacity to read my short post, then you probably lack the capacity to have a license to practice any of this stuff and don't know what you're talking about, anyway. Natural selection at its finest.
>>1013097
I get your point. I do. But for real, an electrical journeyman's license might as well be a consolation prize for dropping out of high school.
>>1012082
The fuck? He's looking right at how its done. Putting wires in a block isn't hard.
>>1012972
I'm cryin into my deposit slips here!
>>1013021
If you had any pride you wouldn't be disposable by choice.
>>1013036
You're half right. They were a great thing, but there's still workers being abused and put in danger needlessly. Until we can't say that anymore, unions still have a job to do.
Also, mr smartypants, it's a journeyman's certificate. It's a certificate of qualification. It doesn't function as a "license" of any kind (like a business license).
But please go ahead and continue to demonstrate how you know everything about the trade.
>>1013097
not knowing something never stops Engineer McSmartypants from knowing everything.
>>1013111
Maybe where you live, but around here the educational component is pretty tough. I've seen guys with reputable university degrees struggle and flunk electrical school. I've also seen world class engineers make horrible fucking mistakes. People are people. The one constant is that guys like you need, desperately, to cling to a sense of superiority. 99% of the engineers I've ever met were just average guys with above average chips on their shoulders because of their education.
>>1013173
So. Much. Butthurt.
>>1013111
You're retarded. please don't post here again...
>>1013185
You're just trying to justify your artificially inflated paycheck because everyone in this thread knows you don't need to know or do shit to be an electrician. Put in your time, glance at the book, take the test, boom. You literally get it for showing up.
Please god kill the main breaker in the house before touching anything. That shit is ghetto and way outdated.
>>1013189
yummy yummy bait!
>>1012455
Cut all zipties in the area, locate wire, fix problem, reziptie
>>1012744
>>1013189
Most guys in the trade can not do this. Most people get into electrical as a last ditch effort to find a good paying job. I spent every day in the bar on campus, and was drunk every day after 11, and still won the IBEW sponsored highest GPA award (non union too haha). Anyways yes, most Electricians are retarded
>>1013192
Oh gee, I should turn the main breaker off and cut off the power before I fucked around with it. Holy hot shit, I NEVER EVEN THOUGHT OF THAT!!!!
Goddamn you saved my life dude. Nevermind that even if i didn't think of that, about 10 other people said the same goddamn thing before you.
>>1012072
Welcome to the wonderful world of SummerFags. Ask a simple question and next thing you known 19 different cunts are derailing your thread in 19^3 different directions... all culminating in them kissing their own ass, justified by them miraculously finding one single person that is dumber than they are. That's logical.
1. That panel is not 100% shoddy, the way it is tangled, it was either not planned out, or it was expanded multiple times. Over the course of about 40+ years. And no other appliance in your house is expected to last that long, why should your panel? If you are getting 'symptoms' elsewhere, it's time to replace the panel. People do it all the time.
2. Cutting back the cables = quick fix == NO. You will have to remove every wire in each bus to move a buss, and then there you, with a fistful of antique Medusa's hair extensions in one hand, and your sweat rag in the other because your power has been off for 2 days trying to sort this shit out.
3. If you cut those cables to "trim them back", notice that they become shorter, meaning they might not reach their original connector in the bus. Some have a little slack, but I wouldn't count on that making a difficult job easier.
4. I live in an expensive area and even so, having someone upgrade your service to 200A costs about $2500. I'd go with that. New panel. Move it where you want, etc.
>>1013377
>1. That panel is not 100% shoddy, the way it is tangled, it was either not planned out, or it was expanded multiple times
Yeah, the house is 150+ years old, and this version of the wiring was done in the early 70s. It didn't even have central heat and a/c at the time it was done, just a wood burner, so it's obviously been expanded a lot.
>2. Cutting back the cables = quick fix == NO. You will have to remove every wire in each bus to move a buss
Seeing how the screws for most of the terminals were completely rusted away, I had to cut quite a few. But it didn't cause any issues.
>3. If you cut those cables to "trim them back", notice that they become shorter
Wow, really? I never fucking thought about that! Man....glad you goddamn came along and fired that little gem right out your dickpipe. Reminds me kind of like....
>all culminating in them kissing their own ass
>4. I live in an expensive area and even so, having someone upgrade your service to 200A costs about $2500
Well for one, it is a 200a service already. It also only costed me about $30 to put a new bus in and spray it down, and seal off the vent.
>power has been off for 2 days trying to sort this shit out.
Actually took me about 45 minutes to do.
Thanks for all the pontificating, union autofelatio, and generally idiotic nonsense though /DIY.
>>1013380
Speaking of auto-fellatio, quite the thread you've got here, OP! So did it fix the problem or not? Any pics for the nay-sayers to pounce on and tell you how you took food out of the mouths of union electrician's children ...err... how your house is in imminent danger?
>>1013380
>Actually took me about 45 minutes to do.
theres some blokes from the Union wishing to discuss your, eh, workrate, anon.. Undue haste costs countless lives, etc.
>>1013390
This is true! And are you up on your continuing education courses? You never posted your qualifications, OP. How do we know you've been properly trained to turn that screwdriver? These aren't simple Phillips head screws, these are slotted screws. Probably imperial to boot. That takes a special class, and I hope you have the completion certificate to show the inspector...
>>1012096
>>1012112
>>1012149
this bro is right
I have no problem where a simple job like replacing a faulty light switch or broken fitting is deffinitely DIYable. but most faggots dont even know what a loop terminal is so they shouldn't be attempting this shit.
>>1012072
now anon, i am confused, lets run through this.
> the source of moisture is coming from a vent in an air duct that connects directly to the a/c evaporator coil, which blows tons of moisture and even liquid water out of it.
who installed this? did you install this? did you pay a company to install this? how old is the install? "just sealing it up" might not work. you should never have water spraying on your electrical wiring. this is very bad. you must not just seal up a random vent. if there is water in your AC vents you can literally kill yourself. there is a disease called legionnaires disease cause by water in AC vents. get a HVAC guy out to fix your shit unless you want to repair it PROPERLY. DO NOT JUST TAPE OVER A HOLE.
seriously, get an electrician to do this job. can you identify all of the wires in this photo? red, black, cream, white, brown. some idiot left the conductors exposed as well. and right next to a handy electrical cabinet panel that you could accidentally push them against. I dont know shit about american electrical codes. but you would never see anything like this in australia. electricians tend to take pride in their work and not leave shit looking like a home owner fucked with it and tangled everything together in a shitty rats nest.
>>1013399
cont.
with an install like yours OP, there are bound to be fuck ups somewhere.
>>1013399
>socket screws aren't vertical
it's almost good...
>>1013380
Fuck yeah, bro.
>>1013402
>>1013399
OP is fucking done, he fixed his shit, his house isn't in ashes, and instead of congratulating him on doing what he set out to do, the union fags are STILL telling him he can't do it by himself. If that doesn't sum up the mentality, intelligence, and attention to detail of union electricians, nothing does.
>>1013382
I don't really want to say. If i fixed the problem, i'll get blasted because obviously couldn't have done it up to code, seeing how I'm not an electrician and in no way competent enough to research what the codes are. Even if i did everything 100% right, then I'm a scab who's taking money away from union's families and denying them their right to my paycheck.
I'd post pics if you guys weren't such raging chest thumping cock thumpers. So basically fuck all of you. I mean, there was some cool people in the thread, but i have to say fuck you to them also, just so union dicks can't accuse me of favoritism.
>>1013422
I can respect that.
>>1013399
>who installed this?
Your fat fucking mom.
>did you install this?
No.
>did you pay a company to install this?
No, I didn't.
>how old is the install?
About 20 years.
>you should never have water spraying on your electrical wiring.
Gee....really? I vaguely recall saying something along the lines of this in my original post, ya know? Kind of recognizing that that's what caused this. But whatever, keep gibbering on your stupid bullshit, I'm sure you're on the right track to fix something that's already fixed.
>if there is water in your AC vents...blah blah blah, I'm fag
The vent was right next to the a/c evap coil, where there's normally a shit load of water. I remember saying this in my original post too.
>DO NOT JUST TAPE OVER A HOLE.
I didn't. If it makes you feel better, tell yourself that I didn't just because you said so. Even though I already had the job done by the time your hot pants wearing ass came along, just tell yourself this. It will make all the difference in your life.
> get an electrician to do this job
Uh....you know what? I did! Yeah, that's right! I like....retroactively got an electrician to come fix the thing that I fixed. So there you go, electrician came and fixed it, there was a time warp or some shit involved, I dunno, but it fucking happened. If it shuts you gays up.
> can you identify all of the wires in this photo?
Yeah....it's a maze of neutrals and grounds that are all connecting to a common source. Then there's some hots and backfed hots going to the fuses.
>but you would never see anything like this in australia.
I know, you guys are so amazing, you banned guns even though you didn't ban them and you haven't had any mass shootings since even though you did. Fucking amazing place, your wiring has to be mind-blowing too!
>not leave shit looking like a home owner fucked with it
The green sticker in the pic has the electrician's name who installed it, and the inspectors name on it.
>>1013394
You mock, but the inspector tends to be quite thorough and picky with DIY'ers because, statistically, a lot of them fuck up seemingly easy work or they fuck up the code because they have no way of knowing it.
Also, in a lot of jurisdictions your insurance company can and will still hold the DIY'er responsible for an electrical caused fire even if the work was successfully inspected.
>>1013422
Union guy here. Electricians, in general, are very aware of the risks of poor installation and repair. The good ones are anyways. >>1012473 was me. It was the first thing I had to say here. I wasn't saying you need to hire union. I was saying your safety is on the line because electrical is dangerous.
I can't speak for anyone else here, but first and foremost I'm concerned for your safety.
>>1013428
>The green sticker in the pic has the electrician's name who installed it, and the inspectors name on it.
>that fucking nightmare
>inspector
>>1013433
You assume it was like that 20 years ago before various home owners started fucking with it because "this isn't rocket science".
>>1012072
What 3rd world country do you live in? Even without the rust and spider webs that looks seriously dodgy.
Hello, I'm Marf Biglesbury, LICENSED electrician, union local 8765309. OP hired to to fix his unfathomable, nightmarish mass of wires and metal that was shooting flames and sparks everywhere and generally bringing down the standard of living in the western world. I spent over eleven weeks to fix it, charged quardruple what I should have, and I even shit in all his neighbors cars for not hiring union workers, even though they had no need to. A true american would find a reason.
All is well here.
>>1013441
>Mocks union
>Post a fantastic example of what unions have done for us.
>>1013422
if you were in my country op i would ask you how you tested the circuit once you had fixed it
>>1013445
>implying Pakis don't have unions
>implying unioners don't do astronomically dumb, unsafe shit all the time anyway
>implying it was the IBEW that said linemen have to wear an auto-latching 4-point fall harness and giant gaudy gaffs that strap to hip instead of the insurance companies (who have 0 idea what the fuck they're doing) the employer has to shill out money to.
Extra rules don't make you safe. Being not dumb makes you safe.
>>1013461
You can check continuity from the ground bus to your water pipe with a miltimeter and a wire.
I guarantee you that guy isn't union. Only a scab could work that way.
I bet that guy feels pretty smart (not dumb) each time he survives doing something that stupid. That's how idiots like that operate. Every time they put themselves at risk, and survive, they feel like they've accomplished something noteworthy! They fucking brag about it, like that dumbass in this thread with the 4000+ volt shock.
Extra rules do so make you safe(er) because every idiot that survives being stupid (like the two above examples) feels like some sort of hero, ffs.
You have to force people not to do dumb shit.
>>1013605
>Only a scab could work that way
MAXIMUM LOL
>>1013623
It's funny cause it's true.
>>1013348
http://www.insidejobs.com/careers/low-voltage-technician
>>1013651
Good link. These guys are not electricians.
>>1013651
In the trade, we call that extra low voltage
>>1012491
Holy shit this happened to me.
Im only 19.
The electrician job I got was good but I got laid off.
It ws also my first ever real job too.
I loved it.
It was commercial and we mostly were out digging and laying conduit.
But the thing is I learn fast and love computers and math and shit so I worked up really quick. I was writing up blueprints and driving excavators and shit.
Hell I got my actual drivers license 4 months ago. Yet they knew i as smart enough to do those things correctly.
But its because of other, older guys with obviously more experience, fucking shit up.
Breaking my conduit and racks. Getting in our way.
The other guys in my team always had breaks and what not.
Hell I'm sure many off them werent even legal.
Then since I had only one month of experience, I got laid off.
I loved it though. It was a great opportunity.
Now relating to this thread, i have to dead outlets that don't seem to have power running through them.
I'm sure they're called GFCIs since they have the buttons to reset but they also have a green led indicator on but no power.
What could be the problem?
>>1015384
Oh yeah, the company laid you off because of corruption, mr.Icanttroubleshootagfci
Keep telling yourself that.
>>1015384
Can't keep a good thread down! GFCIs do go bad, you may have to just replace them. If they're in series you can hope it's just the first one, but I don't know why they'd be in series unless an idiot installed them. You could try resetting them like, ten times in a row. Sometimes they corrode inside, especially if they're in a bathroom. Replacement is the better option. Also try googling correct wiring of GFCI outlets. They are done wrong even by professionals. Remember to hit the breaker before messing with hot wiring, anon.
>>1012337
Cool story man, I take ~20000V on a daily basis from static shocks. It got nothing to do with voltage retard, it's about the amps
>>1015417
No, in this comparison it's about the wattage. If there were significant wattage behind that static shock, you'd be dead.
I'm betting there was a lot more wattage behind that 4000+ volts than was behind your static shock. That's why it hit him hard enough he had to sit down for a while.
I feel like I've spent this entire thread explaining the practical nature of electrical work to all of you.
>>1012310
>Maybe depending on your jurisdiction. In some jurisdictions where you can do that you have to also get an electrician to certify that you are up to code. good luck with that.
You get work inspected by an electrical inspector, not an electrician. What OP wants to do does not need to be inspected.
>110V / 1kOhm = 110mA. Bam, you're dead. at least you didn't suffer any major health effects as a result.
Yet thousands of people are shocked every day by coming in contact with a frayed wire, light socket, or touching a live prong on a plug and do not die. Odd.
>>1015421
And many do die.
Does it make your dick hard to gamble with your life or are you just too stupid to realize that safe is a good way to get things done.
>>1015421
>Yet thousands of people are shocked every day by coming in contact with a frayed wire, light socket, or touching a live prong on a plug and do not die. Odd.
I know you're trolling but in case you aren't, but if these people were to be standing barefoot on a wet floor they'd likely be dead if the RCBO didn't kick in.
consider the incredible resistance your socks, your shoes, or the floor has, and the incredibly power in those wires for you to still get zapped.
>>1013430
>a lot of them fuck up seemingly easy work or they fuck up the code because they have no way of knowing it
I had a copy of the OESC before I even got in the trade. Also have an OBC copy. Google is your friend
>>1013599
Just use an extension cord in the panel receptacle
>>1015408
This guy. If you were so awesome it would be nothing to figure this out. Dropping pvc in a hole and burial taping it is tard work. If people were doing anything other than crushing your pipe your work was shit
>>1015512
That makes you the exception honey, not the rule. But good for you for thinking you're the center of the universe!
>>1015419
You are an idiot. Amperage is what kills you. That's why gfcis trip on amperage.
>>1015543
>honey
Faggot. The implication was it is not difficult to find.
>>1015548
You're an apprentice, aren't you?
This thread is awful.
OP, if you haven't fixed the problem yet remember that even if you switch off the main breaker in the panel there are still hot wires in there. You're probably safe, but don't go in with the mind set you're completely safe. If you have a disconnect outside by your panel that will kill the live wires inside the box, but I doubt you do. Make sure you remove all rust that could potentially disrupt contact and that you tighten everything down properly, but not so much you destroy the wire or the bus.
This really is the most basic thing you can do with a circuit panel, aside from taking the cover off or putting in a new breaker, but you can still mess it up. Make sure you don't somehow lose a wire in there, if you need to take note of each one as you take it out. I.e. count 14 wires taken out, make sure 14 are put back in.
Something like this, a direct removal and replacement with an identical part is easy if you take your time and use common sense. There are risks, but if you do it correctly you'll be fine.
Your main downfall is that you're not an experienced electrician, and just like shade tree mechanics, you may be able to guess at the cause of your problem, but without the training and experience you may not have the skills or knowledge to properly diagnose the issue. So don't be surprised if you do this and you still don't have a ground. This issue definitely needs to be addressed whether it's the cause of your problem or not, but it very likely could be the cause.
>>1015553
>P=IV
It goes way beyond that, but you wouldn't know with your American high school level education.
>>1015555
>You're an apprentice, aren't you?
You the retard union shill?
>Implying OP will come back.
>Implying OP ever posted again after OP from being electrocuted and burning his whole state down after scabbing PHD level electrical work.
>>1013380
>>1013422
>>1013428
Good fucking job OP, you fixed an easy 45 minute problem into an easy 45 minute solution. Seriously. Fucking Union dipshits are probably dumbfounded.
You worked a screwdriver, a pair of dykes AND probably a pair of strippers by yourself, that's three fucking union jobs right there.
>Implying anyone will ever know OP did this himself instead of a licensed electrician.
Post pics and update anyway. We never get true resolution on these threads.
>>1015561
>Implying you even scanned the thread.
>>1015624
OP's help post and finished post are 3 days apart.
>45 minutes!!!hurdurr
An actual electrician would have it actually fixed in 45 minutes.
>>1015633
...and wouldn't have posted on here in the first place? Gonna go out on a limb and say it probably took him a day to fix the moisture problem, a day to find the replacement bus bars, and a day of watching the "chest thumping cock thumpers" while shaking his head in bewilderment. By the way OP, if you're still here, I'm going to use that, "chest 'pumping' cock thumpers" though. You sir are a poet, and I like you.
And since this is totally a /b/ thread now, nice dubs. Checked.
>>1015422
I never said you shouldn't use safety. I just pointed out that most shocks from 121v circuits aren't deadly.
>>1015453
Why would op remove his socks and shoes and stand in a puddle of water to replace a bus bar in is panel? Let alone leave it on?
>>1012310
Lets do some less biased math. Considering the median human body hand to hand resistance of the human body is 1.875kOhm.
110V/1.875/kOhm = 58.67mA.
No idea where you were told that 70mA is a general lethal threshold. I've always been taught that 100mA is where ventricular fibrillation becomes and issue and a quick google search backs that up.
So if you want to listen to medical science in a worst case scenario of a hand to hand electrical shock (which bridges the heart) the average person (1875Ohm of resistance) will feel pain and lose muscle control when coming in contact with a live 110v circuit.
Now, is this something you want to do? No. Is it a death sentence? Most likely not.
Now if the person is unlucky and falls into the bottom 5 percentile for electrical resistance (1200 ohms) they will suffer a current of 91.67mA. This too is below the commonly accepted range of 100-300mA causing possible heart fibrillation with continued contact (usually considered to be about 3-5 seconds)
Again, not something you want to experiment with because the human body isn't consistent. Some people have died with a 20mA current to their heart. People have survived lightning strikes of an estimated 30,000-50,000A.
>>1015419
>>1015417
oh look, it's the moron "electricians" back again who cant even into AC current.
it's the defibrillation that gives you a heart attack. being electrified very rarely permanently harms you. your arm will go dead. you might develop arrhythmia if the pulse hit you at the right time and arced through your pericardium.
>>1013430
>fuck up the code because they have no way of knowing it.
THE CODE can't be legally-binding and copyrighted at the same time, and so is freely available on the Internet.
>>1015417
I=V/R.
Unless your mutant power is varying your resistance, it's all about the volts.
>ITT: Worthless Union faggots getting BTFO
>>1015408
Never said corruption nigger.
And I just asked. I know the basics of troubleshooting it but I don't know if there's some other problem such as bad wired which I think it's unlikely.
I was just going to see if any wires were reversed or if any screw was tight enough
>>1015414
Yeah I was thinking about buying new ones then carefully wiring them. And yes, this house was definitely wired by a retard. I know the dude that wired everything
>>1015408
If you thought i was faking what i said about illegals working there, you're wrong dude.
I knew these guys. We drove two hours to work everyday. They told me they aren't legal.
I was invited by the guy who owns the car that i carpool with.
I was working under a sub-sub-contractor, under an electrical sub contractor under a construction contractor.
I never had taxes deducted from my paycheck either.
These guys literally were just invited to work as I was.
I'm not sure if that qualifies as corruption but it wasn't legal work.
I'm a kid though, straight out of school, so what do I know?
>>1015690
Your internal resistance varies a lot based on your activity and environment. I've already posted about it in this thread. You can't "assume" a resistance.
This is the practical knowledge that separates a trade professional, like me, from a whatever you are.
>>1015706
Your info about defib has nothing to do with a conversation about the relationship of electrical properties. It's superfluous.
>>1015795
Yes it can. This is straight from my code book.
"Intellectual property rights and ownership
As between CSA and the users of this document (whether it be in printed or electronic form), CSA is the owner, or the authorized licensee, of all works contained herein that are protected by copyright..."
>>1015930
nah bro, you don't know fuck all. I'm a journeyman and I'm qualified to say that. You're 19 and you think you know everything. Grow up.
>>1015964
Wait, that was another thread...
Meter yourself, hand to hand, at 20 different times in a day, spread out, and you'll find that hydration, sweatyness, etc... will drastically affect your resistance. Your readings will very hugely.
>>1015972
*vary*
>>1015964
What is your problem nigger?
I know I don't know shit.
That's why I fucking asked.
>>1015976
Maybe I'm confused. Who are you again? Are you the 19 year old that thinks he was laid off unfairly? Because if you're that guy, quit talking shit about things you don't understand.
If you're someone else, nevermind.
>>1015964
I never even said it was because of "corruption" fuckwad.
It was because of my very very little experience compared to the others.
>>1015979
That was me. I never said i was laid off unfairly.
I know it was my inexperience.
One poster said some shit about illegals so I added my personal experience within the trade.
>>1015980
"this happened to me" in response to a rant about union guys keeping their jobs unfairly.
You fucking implied it was unfair/corrupt.
>>1015988
I talked about his experience getting laid off relative to mine.
The guys who got there a few months earlier with no experience also, stayed.
You are implying for me fucker
>>1015991
Maybe you should be more aware of what conversation you're entering into. Context bro. Context.
Fucker.
>>1015964
No-one cares about your backwater country.
In every sane jurisdiction, you can't copyright a law. The very idea is retarded: "you could go to jail if you do some stuff, but I could go to jail if I tell you what that stuff is".
https://archive.org/details/NationalElectricalCode
>>1016012
codes, standards and norms are often copyrighted.
it's so fuckwads like you have a hard time getting to it, reading it, misinterpreting it, and saying it's the publishers' fault for not dumbing it down enough.
>>1016384
If it's the law, it's not copyrightable.
This is why the entire NEC is available on archive.org, yet archive.org has not been DMCA'd over it.
>>1016337
Someday, when you're older and more experienced, you may understand how they were valued more than you.
>>1016390
the NEC is by law freely accessible
in fatburgerland
in germoney on the other hand (the nexus of engineering of the civilized world, by the bye) this isn't always the case. because we like protecting our citizens.
>>1012491
>Ever had a client scream in your face cause the project isn't done on time but there is literally nothing you can do because your guys have "a right to" smoke breaks?
you could hire enough people to get the work you want done at the speed you were paid to have it done.
>>1016503
Protecting them from knowing what the law is?
That sounds retarded.
No wonder britain-sempai rejected you.
>>1016535
You need to show a proof of dedication.
It prevents halfassery
>>1016503
>>1016537
I just got back from a multiyuro trip, Germany was truly almost a tier-1 first world country. Munich and Berlin both reminded me of a shitty American city, just with more mudslimes.
Now southern Italy? Jesus Christ Naples and Sicily in general were just as ghetto and dirty as fucking beanerland. Not the poorest country, but the least fucks given I've ever been.
>Haven't been to Brazil though.
>>1016407
That wasn't me bruv.
I'm the young dude, that was the other guy
>>1012478
>You can only hate unions if you're ignorant of history. Weekends, abolishing of child labor, safety work rights, living wages, 40 hour work week.
I am not sure if you are a dumb ass or just ignorant. The Ford Motor Company began the 40 hour work week and weekends well before your bullshit union thought of it. maybe if you stopped sucking the union tit and look around you'd realize that.
>>1016561
>My big fancy european vacation, before migrant crisis, but in 2015
>Tour coast from Italy to spain
Jesus Christ it's all dirty and shitty, this is big tourist town and it all looks like a slum? I should have gone to vegas.
At least the cruise ship had a martini bar.
>>1016516
No no no.
I'd much rather pay 20 guys time and a half than hire 5 more guys because it really gets my dick hard thinking about how those 20 guys get to spend less time with their families at night, and maybe they're a little extra tired and can't put up with their dog so they kick it ohhh yeah. And then, the best thing is when they are so tired and pissed they start taking downers and uppers to keep performing so they don't miss work, culminating in dangerous behavior that even OSHA hasn't thought of yet, and then I can fire them for it and crank up the OT even more.
Finally someone flips out and assaults me, then I can call the cops and get him arrested.
[spoiler]Things posted on this forum are a work of fiction, but it sure fucking feels like that sometimes, when you're into 9 months of mandatory OT[/spoiler]
>>1016682
Hey buddy, here at Shitcorp Contracting we only know one thing: it's the labor's fault. Doubly so if they're union!
>>1016682
Well, if you can only afford 20 guys (or the scope would only call for 20), you should at least be able to expect those 20 guys to do 8 hours of work for 10 hours of pay. When the union contract says they get X number of breaks or that I can't tell them to get off their ass long enough to get the job done I'm the ass hole. That makes sense. Unions fuck over small companies the hardest.
If a worker can't handle the stress of their job it's their responsibility to ask for help or find a new job. It's my responsibility to get you a paycheck if you're capable and you want to do the work that needs to get done - and keep you safe on the job. I have no need to make you feel warm and cuddly, and I will be perfectly happy not paying you to not do the job. Unions seem to think I just have this unlimited amount of money to pay people to not do work, and that's absurd.
>>1012082
t. butt hurt union electrician who wants to charge 100 hours for basic shit
>>1012488
>>1012149
Get off DIY faggot
>>1016896
Translation: I underbid and mismanage jobs and expect the labor to work twice as hard to make up for it.
I just got off a job like that. Hard bid, terrible engineering (see underspec tray comments earlier in thread). Everyone wants to blame the union when shit isn't done on time.
>the scope would only call for 20
And do your timelines include all the rework your crappy engineering and broken workflow management caused?
My last week there I got a job task.
>Go install field run tray to this heat trace box.
>Write a start card (site rules, not the union's)
>locate north and east (2D) location from ISO print.
>Check scaffold tags. They all check today. Lucky me.
>Find path up maze of scaffolding to indicated elevation.
>Discover this is tray that I already ran a month ago while on a different crew.
>work is previously finished. Nothing for me to do.
On paper there was no progress for me and my partner for the entire first quarter. I know it's because management can't manage workflow, but they'll all be sitting around, like you, blaming "lazy union labor".
If your scope calls for 8000 hours of labor, but you have us chase our tails for 3000 of those hours doing rework and it's-already-done-work then who's fucking fault is it when your estimated manpower doesn't get the job done?
It's your fucking fault. It's why you don't have a metric for "Delays caused by poor management". We're your scapegoat.
>>1016909
>Doesn't find any other task to do and just sits around saying my job for the day is done.
Yea, ALL managements fault.
>>1016915
Actually, I never said that, bub. It took us the first quarter to do all that. We got new work afterwards.
I'm just saying on paper it looks like we wasted our first quarter away because there's no billable progress. Some people would take that to mean that we are lazy, when in reality the lack of production is management's fault. This is true 99.99% of the time.
The guys on the tools do what they can with what they're given (info, access, tools, materials, etc...)
That shit IS management's fault. And you had to put words in my mouth to criticize me because your irrational hatred of union labor doesn't match the facts.
>>1016909
>management demands company policy and proceedure be followed
>it's extremely inefficient
>not your problem
>fill out reports saying you have re-inspected work
>management will eventually notice they are sending you out to reinspect completed work multiple times
>your paperwork shows that you have been working
>managers manager now reviews employee work reports to find that idiot middle management has been wasting company money
work smart. remember if the boss sends you to do a job, just do it. its not your problem, you're not responsible for organizing workflow. you're the drone that walks around doing what you're told. as long as your paperwork shows that you walked around the building site only to find that you'd been sent to an already completed job, you cant get in trouble. if it happens too often, bring it up with the management and show them all the inspection reports you've been doing.
>>1016915
that's not how it works. sure when its a very small team you can just wing it and get more stuff done. say a small house where you're the only electrician on the job and there wasnt much to do anyway.
now lets move up to working on a highrise where there are going to be multiple workers on each building, you need to manage access like LOTO or they're going to be wanting to drop in supplies with a crane right where you need to be standing for 2 hours. this requires management. you cant just go and do something else because there are a lot of other people involved in the project and if you get in their way, you can slow down the whole project. you cant be working in a room when someone else is scheduled to be laying epoxy. you cant be scheduled into a location if they're going to be welding over your head. NO, you cant just ask around. NO you cant just start working on something else. because the next guy is going to turn up and tell you to gtfo because he was sent up to work right where you are working.
>>1016924
>you cant get in trouble.
First of all, you're not speaking from experience. That much is obvious.
Dude, they have no metric for "time wasted by mismanagement". The ONLY thing they measure is billable work.
There are no inspection reports. There's no official paper trail of time wasted by management. The only paper trail are the ones they allow.
>>1016933
this is magnified on industrial jobs. I can walk by easy work, low hanging fruit so to speak, and I'm not allowed to do it if it's not assigned to our crew because our foreman ISN'T ALLOWED to claim work not assigned to him.
>>1012072
>ITT: Lazy union shills try to explain why they shouldn't have to do 8 hours of work they were paid to do, all while unknowingly creating a perfect example of why undocumented workers are taking so many jobs in this country.
>>1015964
>Your internal resistance varies a lot based on your activity and environment.
You don't understand the term median, do you?
Also stop acting like the internal resistance of a person is something you were taught in trade school. There is no medical section taught to electricians in training, I know because my father is a master electrician who owns a large shop in the midwest.
Stop acting like you know anything, you fucking retard.
>>1016942
I swear you've posted that exact thing in this thread like 8 times, and no one has ever said it but you.
>>1016966
Actually I'm a new anon who's only read the last 10 posts.
>>1016969
As a hard working union shill, fully half of my day is given over to driving around and dealing with paperwork from departments making it hard to do my job rather than helping.
>>1016956
>I know because my father is a master electrician
Maybe i should let my girlfriend perform some lipo on me because her mom's an MD.
Actual Master electric engineer here, and let me tell you that you can't concern yourself with the mean or the median. You have to consider what happens to the bottom margin of the last standard deviation of the human population.
>>1016938
>There are no inspection reports.
are you sure that you're not a NEET? all jobs, especially contract jobs have work orders. you're going to get royally fucked if you're not preparing work orders especially by the tax man on your next audit when you cant prove what work you're been doing.
>i dont do inspection reports
you must start immediately. when someone gets hurt even remotely near something you've installed you're going to need to present a report stating that you inspected X junction box upon job completion and it met X standards.
>Dude, they have no metric for "time wasted by mismanagement". The ONLY thing they measure is billable work.
they really do. only it's internal. they dont hold some big party and announce their fuckups with a public paddling of the least efficient employee. do you know what an internal memo is? large companies actually high independent auditors and have HR departments to review company efficiency. management does need to meet quotas and benchmarks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnJzct7h3Dk
>our foreman ISN'T ALLOWED to claim work not assigned to him.
yes i already spelled out why you cant just do work they're not billing you for. learn to work as a team member.
>>1016976
you thought working would only involve doing the practical stuff? the reason you're a qualified trades person is because you need to meet standards. which means paperwork and compliance. actually, qualified trades people often just end up in management supervising unskilled work gangs and checking their work. any idiot can cut lumber and lay bricks after a few weeks of practice.
Hi I'm HVAC and I just wanted to let you know Union and non Union electricans alike; you're all glorified wire pullers, have a nice day.
>>1016909
Shut your stupid fucking mouth you knuckle-dragging piece of shit. I've done the work at literally every level at this point in my career, I've seen how much the average person can do in an 8 hour work day and I have reasonable expectations. When basic expectations of work ethic and professionalism aren't met, you should be able to get rid of someone but it would break contract for me to do so. Don't try to justify your crap any more, or claim you know the extent of problems the IBEW creates for people you lazy union cockbag.
>>1012258
>Things that aren't going to ever happen for $1000, Alex.
Backfeeding has killed power company workers who were not notified a homeowner was backpowering his service with a genset. That's why they check when doing disaster recovery. There are MANY idiots out there. Any residential electrician has seen some terrifyingly incompetent and dangerous wiring. I'm not a sparky but have seen plenty myself.
I do my own shop wiring but I have it inspected by a licensed electricianbro. I do welding and other stuff in return so everyone wins.
>>1016956
You got me. It's secret knowledge I stole from the Illuminati.
I kid, my father was an engineer so all my electrical knowledge was passed to me genetically, like it was with your father.
Does your father know he raised a moron?
>>1016966
yep
>>1016976
yup. There's another activity there's no metric for.
>>1016996
>all jobs, especially contract jobs have work orders
And if you think the boots on the ground electricians ever see those work orders on anything larger than residential work you should go back to jerking off to MLP.
You have no actual idea what the guys on the tools do on medium and larger sites.
>you cant just do work they're not billing you for
No dipshit. If I see some easy, billable work that is under the overall scope of my employer's contract, but not assigned to my crew specifically, I am forbidden from touching it. If I do, the credit for that "progress" will fall under a different foreman and crew and I will not have any work claimed to me. Therefore, on paper, it will look like I've done no work during that time.
>>1017002
>any idiot can cut lumber and lay bricks after a few weeks of practice.
Says a guy that most likely can't. When people are good at something, they make it look easy and then onlookers thing "shit, that looks easy, any idiot could learn to do that no problem." When they go to learn it themselves they invariably learn that it was harder than it looked.
I'm putting you in the armchair qb category.
>>1017029
I always tell people, if you're too dumb to pass electrical school but too smart to weld, go be a scaffolder. I would never tell anyone to do HVAC, those guys are tards.
>>1017094
Oooh, I think I hit a nerve.
Truth hurts, doesn't it.
>>1017104
Some of those idiots are represented in this very thread.
>>1017108
"I have no friends in real life" the post
>>1016956
>mfw when you're standing there like a fuckwit calcuating how much load your resistance (body) will place on the mains when you touch it.
>It's 240V and my internal resistance is fuckwit ohms, oh dont forget to the add the impedance from my own faggotry.
>More than 30mA, it'll be fine. It's frequency that kills you.
>BBBBZZZZZTTTT
Gene pool saved...
Just don't touch it fuckwit, go and get a licensed electrician
>>1017029
Dude I'm HVAC too, chiller tech. Elec tradies are fuckin shit tier. They can't multi-task to the extent that when their mouth's open they can't do fuck all else, and they never fuckin close.I used to be an Avionics Engineer. This fuckin guy knows nothing.
>>1016983
I am a licensed electrician, retard. I am also an EMT and rescue diver.
>>1017108
>I kid, my father was an engineer so all my electrical knowledge was passed to me genetically, like it was with your father.
Or it is known by him training me as an apprentice, and never covering the medical section that apparently you liars received.
But, you know, it's impossible to know what is taught to electricians by simply asking them or looking at the course work at any tech school.
>>1017132
So... get myself to do it?
I was merely pointing out that a shock from is a 110v circuit is in almost all cases not fatal. I never said it was something you should voluntarily do. I was just pointing out how the 21 year old pretending to be an electrician or electrical engineer is just making shit up.
It's okay children, keep pretending that you need to have a PhD in Electrical Engineering to even come within 25 feet of an outlet.
>>1017104
Did you even read that comment?
He didn't say that backfeeding doesn't happen. He said that a lightning strike (which isn't an issue since every house is grounded to a groudn rod or water main) or power spike to backfeeding would cause the wires (which are rated to 600 volts) to become damaged and then moisture gets in and becomes a problem to the point that 110 volt wires start arcing causing a fire. Not to mention that you are allowed to wire your own house in the US and insurance would cover you if you pulled the correct permits (if they were even required).
>>1017144
>Actual Master electric engineer here
Made up title. Liar detected.
Ok, so lets pretend for a second that you're a real electrician that's never metered himself hand to hand or discussed the resistance of the human body with anyone else in the trade.
How do you know what's taught in every trade school in every jurisdiction in every country? Are we even in the same country? How do you have such grand sweeping of the world? Are you a wizard?
Fucking tard.
>>1017136
If you're working as an HVAC guy then you weren't a real engineer. You were a diploma'd technologist, amiright? I know several that left that field to come work the trades.
Say what you will about sparkies but I:
A: don't pretend I'm an real engineer to sound smart
B: make a shitload of money. likely more than you.
Did we reach the thread limit or something?
