Is Barry Allen the only original character and actual sole survivor from the pre-crisis universe and into the Nu52?
Think about it:
>before the first crisis disappeared into the future.
>would periodically return to the past.
>one of these past trips got him into the Convergence event.
>sent back into COIE to stop the Anti-Monitor/become part of the Speed Force.
>returns to post crisis earth.
>responsible for the Flashpoint.
>returns to his timeline, only now it's Nu52.
Now in the current DCU, Barry has no idea how much he has altered, or that all of his allies are essentially fresh new iterastions of the former. His memory has been completely overridden following Flashpoint due to his speed siezures.
Now think about this:
>In Trinity War, when Vibe used his power on Barry, he sensed something beyond him, beyond thier world.
>At the end of Flashpoint, Pandora does something, and uses Barry to join the Spread and form the Nu52, restructuring the Multiverse in the process.
>In the Multiversity Guidbook, the stories of the Multiverse begin with the Flash.
>"Always there at the electric heart of every momentous transformation."
Barry Allen may still carry the vibrational pattern of the pre/post-crisis DCU, and every structural change to it may be stored with that frequency.
Barry Allen is the Master Key to the Multiverse.
>yfw when everything is answered in the next companywide reboot event.
>yfw the event is titled "Hypercrisis".
Now, Hypercrisis Thread.
>>77338257
>>In Trinity War, when Vibe used his power on Barry, he sensed something beyond him, beyond thier world.
I don't remember this, but then again I think I repressed or forgot most of that terrible event.
>Barry Allen is the Master Key to the Multiverse
Uh yeah, we've theorized about this for awhile now.
Meanwhile Wally and his family are out running through the multiple, going from world to world, universe to universe, setting right what once went wrong and hoping that the next place they run to, is home.
>>77338257
>Barry Allen may still carry the vibrational pattern of the pre/post-crisis DCU, and every structural change to it may be stored with that frequency.
I think it's more that his connection to the Speed Force transcends reboots and retcons, since it's the force that separates the germ worlds in the Bleed from the rest of the Overvoid.
Now that we know that the New 52 is one Multiverse among many, I guess we can think of it as the force that encloses and delineates the Multiverse from others. But considering Barry has gone to the Marvel universe and back (JLA/Avengers), the same Speed Force may also enclose the other Multiverses and allow Flashes to travel between them as well.
>yfw movie Flash or TV Flash wind up in a New 52/DC You comic
>>77338418
>Barry has gone to the Marvel universe and back (JLA/Avengers)
Wasn't that Wally?
>I think it's more that his connection to the Speed Force transcends reboots and retcons, since it's the force that separates the germ worlds in the Bleed from the rest of the Overvoid.
The Speed Force contains the 52 Earths that vibrate in the Bleed. The Source Wall separates the Multiverse from the Overvoid.
Before Flashpoint, it seemed the Speed Force was unique to Earth-0, but considering what we know now, we may not fully understand the transdimensional nature of it.
But you still have a point in it playing a part in preserving Barry through every reboot and retcon.
>Uh yeah, we've theorized about this for awhile now.
I'm just looking to build upon that. That was a remarkable reading.
>>77338257
I think Batwoman and Tim Hunter survived.
>>77338789
>Before Flashpoint, it seemed the Speed Force was unique to Earth-0, but considering what we know now, we may not fully understand the transdimensional nature of it.
>I'm just looking to build upon that.
This raises more questions about how the speed force works.
In The Flash: Rebirth, it's revealed Barry created the Speed Force.
The Speed Force transcends time and space, explaining how Jay Garrick was the Flash years before Barry.
But that's written from the perspective of New Earth's timeline. Barry became the Flash before COIE on Earth-1, where Jay only existed on Earth-2.
Wally was the Flash post-crisis. Barry could not have been hit by the lightning creating the Speed Force on the post-crisis Earth.
So where exactly does this key event fit?
Booster hinted that he remembered the old timeline during the beginning of JLI if I'm remembering right.
>>77338257
>Barry Allen is the Master Key to the Multiverse
Yeah we know this. Grant won't shut the fuck up about it
>>77338789
>Wasn't that Wally?
Fuck me, it was. I apologize.
What about that whole Buried Alien deal in a Marvel story though?
>>77339648
Yeah, REALLY early on, but there was a lot of weirdness going around before they got the shared universe deal hammered down consistently.
This was back when they were building up the Daemonites and Pandora as something big and important and look what we got there.
>>77338316
>Trinity War
>Terrible
It was a widescreen version of the JLA/JSA team-ups of yore, down to every single story beat. Johns did himself good there.
Clearly the key to understanding it all is to go back and read every DC comic printed, in publication order, since 1934.Challenge accepted
Superboy Prime has also survived since pre crisis and remembers.
Pre crisis he exists and coie he flees to a pocket dimension to then return post crisis. Later he is flung into and joins the source wall. In nu52 he may still be in the source wall preserved.
>>77340075
Sorry, yeah I overexaggerated there. It's biggest flaw was that it built itself up as a magic-based event, when the big twist at the end that led into Forever Evil basically took the Trinity of Sin's one big claim to fame and ripped it away to make them even more inconsequential in the scheme of things.
There were good parts to it regardless, especially the JLA bits. I'm still sad that series got dragged through so much event bullshit that none of the characters got any time to develop properly as a team dynamic.
>>77340028
>This was back when they were building up the Daemonites and Pandora as something big and important and look what we got there.
>>77338257
>yfw when everything is answered in the next companywide reboot event.
>yfw the event is titled "Hypercrisis".
I will fucking die. Too much hypercrisis.
>>77340107
He might even been awoken when black hand rezzed all them dudes.
actual spoilerand now that black hand is source walled maybe he lost control of him or some such.
>>77340122
Yeah, the bait & switch with Forever Evil is notable, but I think that looking at Trinity War on it's own merits it's a quaint little love letter to a time-honored tradition.
You are absolutely right about that JLA though, it gave us a lot of really cool character dynamics that were never satisfyingly followed-up on. J'onn and Courtney's father/daughter thing and Hawkman teaching Vibe how to be a badass jut out notably in my mind.
>>77340221
>and Hawkman teaching Vibe how to be a badass jut out notably in my mind.
I remember we were all really excited to see Hawkman play a gruff mentor to Vibe.
Also
>we will never get a follow up on any of the ARGUS storylines about the Green Room or the Crimson Men because the Forever Evil miniseries sold like shit
>>77340028
>Pandora as something big and important and look what we got there.
Man, out of trinity war I really only read Justice League and Pandora....pandora was such a dissapointing comic, being solely used as cross over bait and then cancelled.
>>77340277
Someone ask Sterling Gates on Twitter what they had planned for that, maybe? It seemed like the Crimson Men were building up to Darkseid War with Anti-Monitor's appearance (Gates was DEFINITELY in on this because he was working on Vibe too where they introduced Darkseid's daughter and a shit load of other inter-dimensional characters associated with COIE and the Multiverse in general.)
>>77340280
Then Trinity of Sin happened, and that got cut short too even though it had DeMatteis on it.
And even then it was REALLY apparent that he only cared about Phil and the Question and didn't really do anything with Pandora.
>>77340277
I don't think we were off-base, that sort of interaction is exactly what we could reliably expect from Johns were he given enough length to develop things properly.
>TFW we'll never have a lengthy, cozy, capes being a family book like JSA ever again
Like I've come to terms with the fact that the actual JSA is gone for awhile but I can't think of anything on the stands that fills that character-driven niche.
>>77340280
Brah you gotta check out Phantom Stranger I'm telling you.
>>77340382
>Gates was DEFINITELY in on this because he was working on Vibe too where they introduced Darkseid's daughter and a shit load of other inter-dimensional characters associated with COIE and the Multiverse in general
I'm surprised we didn't get more Hypercrisis discussion with that, considering who showed up in ARGUS' s Circus.
>>77340413
I think most of the problem is that you just don't get long runs of series anymore that have the same creative team on them for that long. You had runs with 60+ issues with the same writer able to plot out long development arcs and drop hints and plot points along the way to create a more cohesive narrative that has time to develop characters organically with whatever big plot threatens the universe that Tuesday.
I mean shit, look at Robinson's work on Starman. There were things he hinted at in the first couple arcs that didn't get followed up on until like 70 issues later. And then when he wasn't assured of that same kind of buffer to plot out things how he wanted, he walked off of Earth 2 and everything that he WAS building got dropped and then promptly shit on by Taylor and Wilson.
>>77340277
>we will never get a follow up on any of the ARGUS storylines about the Green Room or the Crimson Men because the Forever Evil miniseries sold like shit
We need to clone Johns so he can write and co write with other people and all his ideas will actually be used
>>77340107
I forgot about Superboy-Prime.
What has me confused is that while it is often portrayed to exist at the edge of the universe, perhaps each of the 52 universes, it is shown to encapsulate the entire Multiverse on the Multiverse Map.
The Guidebook also confirms Superboy-Prime's actions being preserved into the post-Flashpoint multiverse, case in point: Earth 15.
Not to mention that Earth-33, SP's original Earth, has been re-designated as our Earth.
If he did indeed survive the Flashpoint, and makes it out the Source Wall, it will be quite a shitstorm.
>>77340538
>Kick Venditti off of Flash and Green Lantern and get Johns back on both at least to do damage control
>finally write that Curse of Shazam ongoing
>do all the tie-ins for Darkseid War himself
It's too late for Earth 2, but Abnett is the next best thing to Johns writing Golden Age legacies again.
>>77340221
>>77340122
>>77340075
my single, and only, complaint about new 52 JL is it doesn't have the pay-offs of classic John's runs. like look how come hell or high water Geoff set up Hal's GL rebirth arc through Flash, and JSA, and a 2-3 page Wizard exclusive teaser.
so much cool shit is set up in JL since Origin, that goes nowhere. Jessica Cruz is trained by Simon Boaz to be the greatest ...wait what thats not happening? Shazam stuff? Doom patrol?
basically since the firsst lanterns identity was changed, johns has not payed off set ups like he was famous for. his perfect mix of long term arcs with single issue/short story format was what made his works transcend action figure button mashing.
>>77340636
I think the man is just spread far too thin with his involvement in multimedia adaptations. Like I can't fault DC for having their top guy work where the money is, but it does sting a bit.
Eh, it's not like comics aren't in their death rattle right now anyways.
>>77340636
>>77340760
Yeah right now Johns is trying to set up cool things, but either through his own creative ADD or a consequence of him being a CCO and getting yanked around between projects, none of it is being followed up on.
WHERE'S OUR GODDAMN PLASTIC MAN, JOHNS.
>>77340760
>The Gentry=Bad ideas
>Eh, it's not like comics aren't in their death rattle right now anyways.
>pic related
Oh god.
OHGODOHGODOHGODOHGODOHGODOHGODOHGODOHGODOHGODOHGODOHGODOHGODOHGOD...
>>77340899
So you're saying that the secret to defeat the Gentry is to have Geoff Johns write the best goddamn long-form comic ever?
MY GOD, HE WAS IN ON THE HYPERCRISIS ALL ALONG
HE IS GRANT MORRISON'S SECRET WEAPON.
HIS PROMOTION TO CCO TO HANDLE THE ADAPTATIONS IS TO BULWARK THE OTHER MULTIVERSES AGAINST THE EMPTY HAND'S INFLUENCE
>>77340899
I thought the Gentry were cynical fans, uninspired writers, and meddling executives.
>>77339604
The Speed Force can transcend universes and timelines. Barry created the Speed Force when he was struck by that lightning, and through him it was spread to the entire multiverse.
>>77340558
They really should bring him back sometime. He has so much more to bitch about now.
>>77340558
easy way to visualize the source wall is to think of a pomegranite. each orb of fruit is protected from the outer shell of the pomegranite by the red outer skin. that skin looks whiteish yellow on the inside, and is red on the outside. it is both of those.
the source wall blocks off each universe from the next, as well as holding all of creation within it. just like pomegranite skin. it surrounds each bit of inner fruit, as well as the entire outer sphere.
>>77339648
>>77340028
Wasn't the old continuity Booster in Convergence?
>>77341248
Yes, along with the New 52 one.
>>77341102
Pretty much the source of bad ideas.
>>77338257
>Is Barry Allen the only original character and actual sole survivor from the pre-crisis universe and into the Nu52?
According to Darksied War, this also includes Metron and the Anti-Monitor.
I would love to see how they connect the Anti-Monitor's actions in DW to COIE.
>>77340942
>>77340131
Nu52 in it's entirety IS a long form comic, unifying Flashpoint, Multiversity, Convergence, Trinity War, Darksied War, and all other future events, leading to the final revelation of Pandora's quest, and a war over Barry Allen as the key to the Multiverse, to once again cast the lightning and resolve everything, concluding with Hypercrisis.
isn't the pre-flashpoint superman and lois back?
>>77341842
They are, but he is not the same Superman from the pre-crisis universe.
So to date, the only characters that are and have remained the one and same person from before COIE and through to Flashpoint are:
>Barry Allen
>Metron
>The Anti-Monitor
>>77341967
What about Galactus?
Where are people getting the Antimoniter and Metron stayed unchanged? I read Darkseid War but don't recall that.
>>77342060
What about Thanos?
>>77338390
It pisses me off to no end that this isnt what grant is doing right now. Or someone. I want nineties wally back.
>>77342076
All the New Gods changed. Those people are talking complete shit
>>77342076
>>77342153
I think it's a reasonable conclusion after reading Metron's narraration of the Multiverse's history in Part 1 of the Darksied War, and his warning to the Anti-Monitor not to attack it again.
Once again, look forward to any connection made to this and COIE.
>>77342153
That's what I thought. Hell even The Spectre and Zauriel an angel both connected to god changed.
>>77342231
They have divine creation in origin, same as the rest of the universe, but are ultimately things created and thus bound within the universal order itself, regardless of their power level.
And if Dog God is the same as before the reboot or not, well he ain't telling.
>>77342224
Sounds more reasonable to think Metrons chair just has the info of past universes. Info is the chairs gimic.
>Wally will never return and hold Barry accountable for his crimes against the multiverse
>>77340463
Krakkl, Wally Wests imaginary friend from space?
Why is he in a cell?
He never did anything wrong, did he?
>>77342335
Then this leaves Barry as the only unchanged character, with the exception of his memories.
>>77339995
Buried alien is an homage. That's like saying Thor exists in DC because DC has like 3 marvel universe ripoffs. It's just an homage.
>>77344130
There is potential of Superboy Prime, who if when written next is written where he escapes the Source Wall with his memories will be also unchanged but also have all his memories.
That is just hoping a good writer takes him on and not a writer who just makes his own new Superboy Prime for the nu52 and ruins everything.
>>77338789
Speed Force was never unique to Earth-0. Even in the original Speed Force Flash run. Lots of Elseworlds Flashes have Speed Force, most notably Kingdom Come Wally.
This was admittedly long, long before Johns watered it the fuck down in Rebirth to being the least interesting fucking thing imaginable in an attempt to suck Barry's dick hard enough to make him interesting, so who gives a shit anymore.
>>77340585
Johns' run on Barry wasn't particularly good, either. Dastardly was a decent start but everything after that was lukewarm piss.
Johns can't really do shit if he's not writing the Rogues without a good character to write from. Half of his good Wally moments are just people admitting Wally is as good or better than Barry. When he's working with Barry he's just this bland piece of white bread that no one is interested in.
That's why he killed off his mom and made him the Speed Force. Johns can't think of anything interesting about him.
>>77338789
>Wasn't that Wally?
Since time kept shifting, technically, both of them were in that crossover.
>>77342224
I mean they clearly changed, especially Anti Monitor. It's just the narrative that they didn't change because Johns wants to make them look important by connecting them to past stories without having to commit to the connection.
Lois and Clark from pre-flashpoint are living lives on New 52
>>77344130
Barry has changed a shitload, dude. Like the New 52 alone stripped away his garbage Rebirth origin and changed it. Even if in some kooky way he's the "same" Barry that just means he's two different Barrys, both the one from before Flashpoint and the one after, which still means he's fucking different and has changed.
>>77344188
I think a better way to phrase what that anon was trying to say was he's the only character that was changed as opposed to other characters that were replaced with alternate versions.
>>77344198
Barry himself is literally an alternate version of himself. He's literally the alternate future version of Barry Allen whose mom didn't die because Thawne time traveled and made his mom die, this creating a new alternate timeline and that's our Barry.
That's how all this bullshit works. Everyone's an alternate version of the original character the very first time you change them because somewhere out there the original version exists. There's still a version of Barry out there powered by Mopee, just like there's still a version of Wally's dad who's a manhunter even though Waid ignored it.
Anything else you instill is just a projection or ignoring whatever you want to ignore to pretend like Barry is special. Barry got changed like everyone else the same way everyone else changed because it's not like Barry didn't actually fucking exist post crisis. There were still bunches of alternate Barry Allen histories.
Like how the JSA's history was changed to be intertwined with DC after crisis? So was Barry's history with the JLA because things were fucked. Barry didn't get to get out of that one.
>>77340636
What was the first lantern's identity changed from?
>>77344198
>>77344230
Yeah, I recognize that histories were folded into the reboots.
But consider this:
From Barry's perspective following COIE, he came from Earth-1, stopped the Anti-Monitor, and was trapped in the Speed Force until the events of Rebirth.
Did his JLA history change again, when everyone remembered his sacrifice in the first crisis?
>>77344230
I think OP means that Barry is still the same physical person from the previous crisis Earth-1, never duplicated or replaced, and therefore has been a part of every form the Multiverse has taken. This is what makes him the Master Key. The only things that changed about him is his memory and history, all recorded and cataloged in the fictions of Earth-33.
>>77344295
We don't know, but there were several clues and seeds for a future storyline in the last leg of Johns' pre reboot GL stuff it's clear that he wasn't meant to be Volthoom (or if he was his story would have been a hell of a lot different)
>>77338257
WIP interpreting the MV map as a Subway Metro, inspired by ToQger and the kickass Railway seen in Thundereworld
>>77345603
how so?
>>77339833
This. Grant explicitly made this point repeatedly. Yes the Flash is key to the DC multivese and continuity. Everything comes back to Barry.
>>77340131
>>77338257
You guys realize, that statistically speaking, one of us will eventually be writing these books.
So what's the countdown until The Hypercrisis is Real is the poated stinger of.a big event set up book?
>>77338390
Wally is now Sam Beckett, Quantum Theorist?
>>77342224
>>77342231
>>77342153
Metron isn't a new god
Is Johns the one person who remembers that?
What about Psycho Pirate? Whats going on with him anyways?
>>77345841
Yes, the point has been made repeatedly.
So when is someone in the DCU gonna realize/discover this and put it to use?
Right now it seems like the only person to actually "use" Barry was Pandora at the end of Flashpoint to rewrite reality.
During Flashpoint, Sinestro understood the significance of the event, but never got the chance to make use of it.
>>77346056
Psycho Pirate remembered the pre-crisis Multiverse, but was killed by Black Adam during Infinite Crisis.
He evidently didn't make it past Flashpoint, and was duplicated into the Nu52 with a new history.
>>77346132
Lame
>>77342419
Shit that would be a crazy arc.
A squad of Wally Wests comes from beyond Multiverse-1 and captures Barry
>>77346132
>>77346165
Eh, he hasn't had a story yet, the medusa mask could have something that lets him see the previous universes
>>77346237
Wasn't he in the Hive story arc in Superman?
Also, the Medusa mask is telepathic, but doesn't carry archived information like the Mobuis Chair.
Speaking g of which, its pissing me off that Batman has gained no knowledge of COIE and the before history, which could provide some vital clues about how to defeat the Anti-Monitor.
>>77345860
>Begin with a historical story detailing the untold history of the Monitors starting with the first and COIE, up to Nix Uuton and Final Crisis.
>Unify the Monitor tapes with the Multiversity Guidebook.
>Series titled: Monitor-Mind.
>>77348354
Monitor Tapes?
>>77348573
The Monitor tapes were a record started by the first Monitor during COIE, and completed by Harbinger near it's end.
>>77348354
The story of the Multiverse is the story of the survival of ideas.
The Hypercrisis will be about the DCU becoming self aware in a way never seen before, as everyone realizes how dependant they are on the persistence of ideas.
>>77348937
>every Hypercrisis thread in a nutshell.
Still fun though.
>>77348842
Ideas given life by bleeding ink on paper. That's how it looks to us.
Blank paper is perfection, the "Overvoid". When the first story was penned down, the "flaw" came into being and spread as the narrative continued, contained by the Overvoid.
The real world act of storywriting in correlation to the spread of the flaw and the story generator is staggering, and bit mind bending.
>>77342431
No, it was just ARGUS was a bunch of dicks who locked up anyone who made it across the dimensional barriers or posed a possible threat to them, and they couldn't use.
>>77340382
The Crimson Men were part of a bigger plan, but plans change all the time! They were out to create "red skies," though, for a reason…
Wish ARGUS had sold better. Maybe someone will get back to those threads some day!
>>77351243
are you really Sterling Gates?
pls be in london
>>77351243
Whoa holy shit you're still lurking around these threads?
>>77344410
Yes. His history was changed even if he died in the past. When he came back, as heroes often do, his memories didn't "slowly change" or get overridden ala Flashpoint, he just had all his memories of things being different.
>>77352463
Yep. (Though, I'm in Los Angeles.)
>>77354348
Gib me and my buddy work in DC pls
>>77338316
technically, all universes exists now.
also, i believe superboy prime was trapped between dimentions, so technically he was 'out of the universe' when it rebooted.
>>77355584
nah, all the universes that existed before COIE exist again.
For instance, there's still no pre-flashpoint universe. That's why Lois and Clark had to go to prime earth and why folks like The Flash Family or The Legion aren't around anymore.
Not that the Flash Family can work anymore since Barry never died and Wally never became The Flash thanks to Convergence.
>>77354348
If you're actually Sterling Gates can you tell me why DC hates Wally West so much?
>>77356553
I can 't speak for anyone else, but I like Wally West a lot! One of my favorite characters of all time.
(I love that I have to click "I'm not a robot" to post anything on this board! Too funny.)
>>77356802
I dunno the dude's just been given the finger and tossed in the garbage since 2009 so I figured you might have an idea being around so long.
Like Didio literally made a habit of making fun of and mocking Wally fans ever since Rebirth. And everything to do with his "return" has been the most criticized and hated The Flash has been since Bart was The Flash, yet no one at DC even seems to care.
I mean, you're a Wally fan, how do you feel that Wally doesn't have any friends or family anymore?
>>77356802
The Captcha thing is just to stop spambots and shit from ruining boards.
>>77356900
To be frank, I don't own the character or work inside the company (I'm strictly a freelance contractor these days), so I don't know how decisions involving Wally West are made.
I miss seeing Wally show up in big DCU stories, sure, but I have a closet full of back issues if I want to see him again.
Comics are cyclical. Things fall out of favor for a few years, then come back into fashion. Characters are "rested" or changed from time to time, but eventually they make their way back into the limelight. The Teen Titans went away in the 1970s, then came back to be incredible in the early 1980s. Supergirl was brutally killed in COIE in 1985 and there's a new episode of her tv show premiering tonight.
I'd give it time, see what happens.
>>77356955
It's also to let you know that I'm not a robot. Which I'm totally, totally not. Know how you know? Because I clicked the butto--
clicked the--
clicked--
ckkk--
kkkkkkkkkkkskrzzt
>>77357065
I've given it 10 years since the end of the Johns run. I'm not sure how long you really expect me to wait but I'm pretty sure they're just burying anything that was Wally West so they can promote solely Barry Allen.
They've said as much before, that Wally wasn't in the New 52 because then people would want him to be The Flash instead of Barry. What other character got sidelined/erased/ignored because the fans liked him too much?
>>77357065
"I have a closet full of back issues"
That's kind of pointless. Every character has back issues. Barry Allen has back issues. Hell, when Barry Allen was freaking dead he was still getting new comics. That a character existed in comics in the past in a way that people liked is not a reason they should be ripped apart and spat on.
>>77356434
Bleediac only said that the Universes were reborn into their current format, all of which was dependent on the success of the heroes in the first crisis.
So Barry still died, became part of the Speed Force, returned to the post-crisis Earth, caused Flashpoint, and ushered in the Nu52.
The purpose of Convergence was to put more emphasis on story instead of continuity.
The Multiversity Guidebook established that everything is still canon.
>>77357242
"Story instead of continuity" then how come all the good Flash stories aren't canon or even relevant anymore?
>>77357106
Again, I'm not an employee of the company, so I have no "inside information" to offer you. Sorry.
They are reprinting Geoff's Wally West issues again soon, and Wally West is a supporting character in the current Flash book.
>>77357325
That supporting character bit is one of the major reasons so many people are pissed off about him. The character doesn't even resemble Wally in the slightest way.
Like, they turned him into a misguided street punk and 180'd him into an engineering super prodigy filled with folksy wisdom. You tell me if that sounds anything like Wally.
>>77357325
There's a pretty big difference in getting reprints and getting new stories.
>>77357257
This is why I'm stuck with this "Barry is the Master Key" idea. He is absolutely relevant and central to the existence of the Multiverse.
Multiversity established that all stories are canon. Their relevance in relation to the Nu52 can still be theorized.
For one thing, Nu52 was formed from and will always be dependent on the "theme" that made the DCU. The stories that feed into it will always be relevant in the creation of new stories, as they can always be reinterpeted in new ways, or inspire fresh original ideas.
So the Flash's stories will always be canon. Their relevance can be made with the right imagination, which after all is the most powerful force in the universe.
>>77357616
You realized I said NONE of the good Flash stories are canon, right? Many of Wally's stories explicitly included Barry.
>>77357428
A young mechanic whose fast mouth and angry actions often get him into trouble?
There's precedent for all of that in Wally West's history, IMO. A lot of that was in post-Crisis DCU.
DC characters can change drastically over time. Who knows what Wally West will look like in ten years? Or twenty? 1965 Wally West is different than 1985 Wally West, who's different than 2005 Wally West.
That's half of what I like about the DCU...it's constantly growing and evolving.
Back issues -- just like human memories -- are all we have to observe those changes. That's why back issues are so valuable (to me), they're tangible monuments to times past.
And just like in real life, there's no way to know what the future holds for these characters.
>>77341967
Wait, what? Where's he from, then?
>>77357674
Can you explain your reasoning?
To me, if the story happened, if it was printed, read and remembered, then it's still canon. Multiversity also acknowledged all the retcons made.
Continuities rising and falling in waves and troughs. The record of it written into our fictions, here on "Earth-33".
>>77357820
"Mechanic" has to be the least important thing about Wally West I can think of. The only reason he was a mechanic was to be closer to police stuff when his secret identity came back after Blitz...for all of 20 issues in a 220+ issue run.
That's the thing, they severely miss on the character. They think being a "mechanic" is true to Wally's character when it is a very minor, unimportant detail. They interpreted being snarky as having severe authority problems. They made him idolize a career criminal instead of The Flash which is literally THE MOST important thing about his origin.
The point is they had an amazing template of a character to draw upon and gave us the worst interpretation ever that very, very few people are happy with. Jensen even did an interview about how much the fans hated New 52 Wally and their response was to waaaay overcorrect and instead instantly turn him from this lame troubled black youth stereotype to a prodigy genius who is helping poor Barry get his crappy life on track, none of which makes sense for Wally freaking West.
This wasn't growth or evolution. They took all of Wally's growth and evolution and flushed it down the drain, started from square 1, and then ignored everything that made people like Wally West. Wally's growth and evolution are some of the most amazing single character storytelling DC's ever done and they're apparently ashamed or scared of it.
>>77357891
For the longest it was assumed that he was the Superman of the pre-crisis Earth-1.
But in Infinite Crisis, Alexander Luthor stated that this was a mistake, and that the post crisis Earth was entirely new.
Therefore that Superman was a fresh duplicate based on the previous, just like the current Superman is not the pre-Flashpoint one, another duplicate for a new reality.
>this current discussion
>>77357820
I think you're being too forgiving of the current run.
But more generally people suggesting DC has something against Wally in particular are focusing on the wrong thing. DC hasn't known what to do with ANY speedster since like 2006. It's telling that the one who is probably best off right now is XS who showed up in like 5 panels without dialogue in JLU.
>>77357921
"Wally's growth and evolution are some of the most amazing single character storytelling DC's ever done and they're apparently ashamed or scared of it."
Again, I don't work there, can't speak for them, freelance, etc.
I do want to point out that you're weighing 50+ years of a character's existence and his evolution across thousands of appearances in comics against….what, the eight or nine appearances Wally's had in the New 52? Give or take?
That doesn't seem like a fair shake to me, especially as the new universe works to iron out all the kinks.
People haaaaated Bart Allen when he debuted, and he eventually became one of DC's best characters.
Who knows what the future holds for Wally West? I sure don't. And as a lifelong Wally West fan, I'm willing to wait and see what happens next.
Have a good night, nice talking with you.
>>77358128
I'm primarily weighing 10-15 years of the character's existence in the Waid and Johns runs, with some minor acknowledgement of the work Messner-Loebs and Baron did.
People didn't haaaaaaate Bart when he debuted. He got a solo ongoing less than a year after he debuted that was one of the most successful sidekick spinoffs ever. Bart was also a brand new character.
New 52 Wally has been back for nearly 2 years now. They were given rampant criticism and turned around and still turned him into something that doesn't resemble Wally. The only reason he hasn't "appeared" in so many issues is that they literally ignored him for the second half of the arc that was advertised as the "return of Wally West" because everyone hated him so much.
I'm obviously going to wait and see what happens. I have no other choice. But I don't see why 10 years of the character being non-stop dicked over should make me optimistic or happy. That's kind of the impetus of the conversation -- DC has really mishandled and mistreated the character for so long and the face of the company literally insulted his fans before.
>>77358128
Unless you're backing the idea of a complete overhaul and retcon of his origin there's no really anything the "future" can do to fix Wally. He's forever going to be the black kid who was in and out of trouble with the law until Barry saved him from himself.
Rudyard Kipling would be proud, I guess.
>>77357995
This is dumb. A lot of comics is run by cronyism so the whole natural selection thing doesn't work.
>>77358490
unless hypercrisis?
>>77358512
What if you were the writer?
>>77345570
It's kind of a weird situation. What exactly happens when time is changed? I imagine since we're dealing with a complicated topic like time travel, that it's not as simple as characters being replaced with dopplegangers of themselves, or that they literally transform into the alternate versions.
The question is, did original Barry Allen turn into IC Barry, and then into N52 Barry, or is Barry the sole Multiversal time traveler, and only his memories and physical form changed when he entered these Earths in the same way New Gods and other Multiversal beings do? And how is that distinct from what happens to Superman following these events? Does this mean there's a "true" Barry located somewhere outside the universe who remembers everything, projecting his form onto Earth like Darkseid? Are the same character from different iterations of the Multiverse actually distinct from one another? I don't believe we've ever had a time when a character met themselves from a past version of the Multiverse. And this also raises the question, what happened to the N52 Barry from before the current one arrived? We know the timeline tends to remain hazy around paradoxes and Crises, which is probably true here too, but is that version of Barry potentially a different character in the eyes of the Multiverse timeline, or would he just be some kind of aspect of original Barry?
>>77358512
cronyism doesn't prevent writers from retconning each other
>>77358594
>characters meeting thier previous Multiverse versions.
Wonder Woman met her previous version in Infinite Crisis.
Right now, pre-Flashpoint Superman is living in the Nu52.
So yes, each character is distinct from the other in each new iteration of the Multiverse, except for Barry, who has always been the true original Barry.
>>77358642
It prevents good writers from being inspired by great stories and rising up to take up positions in the business when those positions are filled by the shitty cronies.
>>77358791
We've literally seen Barry Allen meet an alternate version of himself before.
>>77358807
There are good cronies too though.
>>77358791
Except Barry Allen is still an alternate version of himself. The original Barry Allen had living parents after all. Just like how this Wally isn't the same as the previous Wally because Barry time traveled and changed him, current Barry isn't the same as original Barry because Thawne went back in time and changed him.
>>77358818
That depends. Alternate Earth or timeline? That's not impossible and doesn't negate the idea of him still being the same Pre-crisis Earth-1 Barry.
>>77358845
Both? Pre Crisis Earth 1 Barry was a different dude who could do different things from the last two incarnations of Barry (Post Rebirth and Post Flashpoint). Barry's just as changed as anyone else.
>>77357994
For the purposes of this thread why does this not apply to Barry as well? He was right there with the post-COIE character for things like JLA Year One and Identity Crisis that were obviously not canon pre-COIE.
>>77358871
>>77358892
What I'm suggesting is the while Barry has changed, he is the only character who has not been eliminated and duplicated, but rather has been folded into each new reality with each reboot.
We literally watched him run into the Nu52 universe after merging with his last self.
>>77358977
Did you think everyone who survived the Crisis like Hal Jordan was still the same, then? If so then the only thing that matters to you is Flashpoint which is silly. Flashpoint isn't the only relevant retcon.
>>77340091
RIP
So in total we have Barry, Whiny boy Prime, Antimonitor and Metron.
I want a comic of those four sitting around a campfire talking about the good old days.
Can't be worse of a final farewell than Convergence was...
>>77359177
Convergence had some fucking great tie-ins at least, even if the main series was trash.
>>77359025
I brought up Flashpoint as an example, and don't believe pre-crisis Hal survived, but was replaced like everyone else.
Based on what I wrote in OP, I just think Barry's personal timeline/perspective makes him unique.
Don't take me seriously, I'm just having fun with the idea of it.
>>77359192
yeah I agree, but was referring to the main series
>>77359025
Yes. COIE says exactly that. Everyone who survived was the same and others who didn't were gone but new versions of them for the new universe were there.
>>77358977
>What I'm suggesting is the while Barry has changed, he is the only character who has not been eliminated and duplicate
That's what I'm not getting though. Why do you consider what happened to him different from what happened to everyone else after COIE?
>>77359195
Lots of people survived COIE, pretty much everyone who went to the dawn of time.
>>77359224
Barry however is the only one to also survive all other events too.
>>77359271
The only thing that would make him unique in my eyes is surviving Flashpoint. He should have been replaced at every other point along with everyone else.
>>77359224
Becuase according to the author of COIE, Barry's "sacrifice" to destroy the Anti-Monitor's machine left an opening for a future writer to bring him back.
I believe that was the Speed Force, containing Barry, all the while the post-Crisis Earth provided him a new history, up until Rebirth, where his sacrifice and the previous Multiverse was remembered.
>>77359302
Also Zero Hour.
About 5-6 people made it from pre to Flashpoint (Barry, Zoom, Patty, Booster, Bart). Only Barry made it from Flashpoint to nu52.
>>77359383
See, he gets it.
>>77359383
Pre-Flashpoint Booster stuck around/evolved into Waverider in Convergence
>>77359487
Really? That's interesting. Flashpoint has him in an infinite time loop going forever back and forth between pre and Flashpoint realities. How did Convergence handle that?
Also was Booster in COIE?
>>77359383
A being like the Time Trapper should probably have made it too, but I guess that's debatable since I don't think he's shown up yet.
>>77359574
Booster was one of the first characters created after COIE I think. Not sure if they retconned in some involvement down the line though.
Barry is from the second incarnation of the DC reality. Multiversity/Convergence ushered in the 8th from the 7th. (Recall 8 being important in Multiversity)
First was a single universe.
Krona saw creation and made the second incarnation.
The second incarnation, an infinite multiverse, ended with COIE.
The third incarnation, a single universe and antimatter universe, was changed in Zero Hour.
The new fourth incarnation ended with Infinite Crisis/52 to make the 5th.
The fifth incarnation, a 52 universe multiverse, got replaced with the Flashpoint incarnation.
The sixth incarnation, the Flashpoint reality, ended at the end of the event by Pandora to make the seventh.
The seventh incarnation, nu52 a 52 universe multiverse, lasted until Convergence and Multiversity bringing back old universes and other multiverses.
Now the eighth incarnation has infinite universes via infinite multiverses.
Barry is from the second, joined the speed force, missed the third and fourth, came back in the fifth, survived the changes to the current eighth.
>>77359909
>>77359963
Basically DC has had reality rewritten on a large scale with being changed back 7 times. Current reality is DC 8.0.
>>77360006
*without being changed back
Big important mistake there.
>>77359963
basically this but he's counting the Flashpoint universe itself as a version too
>>77340091
May you RIP in pieces, my good man.
>>77340858
>tfw no Plas
>>77360117
I feel it should count. It may have been brief and functionally an intermediate setting but it works.
Plus it allows the incarnations to be 8 and Multiversity to bring in the 8th, with both 8 being important in the work and the octave theme where a set of 8 notes has the 8th note be a return to the beginning the 8th incarnation ushered in by Multiversity is a return to DCs early days with infinite universes.
>>77338789
How in the world is the Speed Force unique to Earth 0 when Jay had it?
>>77341156
This just creates your generic paradox, which is why the Rebirth retcon is retarded and, thankfully, was thrown away in the reboot.
>>77358540
Hypercrisis has nothing to do with Wally. Anything in Grant's big cosmology related to The Flash will always be about Barry because Grant prefers Barry.
>>77362739
Jay has super speed even without the speed force. He's a metahuman with speed genes
>>77359909
I get it! Nicely summarized.
>shoots self in head.
>>77341203
You are forgetting the nature of the multiverse.
All universes are in the same place, just at different vibrations frequencies.
The source wall just exists in every frequency
>>77342302
He's not even called Wally, how can he be the same?
>>77364190
Too deep 4me. I totally forgot that flash fact.
Do speedsters age differently?
