Why are people OK with changing characters to make them minorities instead of giving minorities characters to call their own?
I would be insulted if someone kowtowed to me and told me "Oh here, we made Falcon white so you can have a white superhero." like no, motherfucker, I don't want your fucking damaged goods.
I found a simple solution.
Stop reading capeshit. Marvel and Dc are doing whatever they can to get people talking about them, before it was killing their heroes now its making them minorities.
>>84537442
/thread
>>84537394
Because wholly original characters don't sell. With Riri, this way if she proves popular enough, she can be spun off into her own series and identity once Tony Stark returns.
If you'd like to prove them wrong, then buy Mosaic, one of the rare books being launched by the big two starring a completely original character.
>>84537394
>New Black Lady Iron Man
Oh neat
>Bendis
Nope.jpg
>>84537442
>now
DC was doing this back in mid 00s and the 90s
>>84537394
we've been saying this since spider-man, no before all that. they will never learn op.
I'm more upset that any time there comes time for diversity, they just add in a black person instead.
It's not just a cape thing. It's a media thing.
>>84537394
Because it's less expensive to just make an existing character a certain race/gender/sexuality/etc than it is to actually come up with an original character that happens to be that race/gender/sexuality/etc?
Something like that, anyways.
Because niggers start fights and white people are too chicken to finish them
>>84537394
back to /pol/
>>84537498
I dunno, man. You've got Chulk, Robbie Reyes, Sam Alexander, Kamala Khan... the black ones tend to get the most attention, but I think that's just because they're the highest profile ones (Spidey and Iron Man, and FalCap, if he counts).
It's not really a media thing, or even a Marvel thing. It's a Bendis thing.
>>84537442
It's been awhile since I've actually bought any capeshit comics (Not including Invincible) So I'm with you on that.
>>84537468
I will look this up.
>>84537394
As a black guy, I don't get why they just don't use the black characters currently created? Most of them aren't doing shit, so why not use them? Or create new original ones.
>>84537394
>actually caring about Ironman comics
>actually giving Bendis attention
Nigga what are you doing?
>>84537498
Arab Dr Fate
Arab GL
Pakistani Ms Marvel
Korean Hulk
>>84537559
Yup, because I would rather originality than repackaging I am a /pol/.
I thought /co/ was love.
>>84537563
Black basketball player turns out to be inhuman, powers allow him to possess other people.
I give it 12 issues.
>>84537394
They didn't change anybody though. And it wouldn't matter if they did.
>>84537592
You clearly don't read comics
Legacy characters have been a thing for decades
>>84537442
>now its making them minorities.
>now
DC did this to about dozen characters back in the 00s and 90s.
And unlike marvel now, they "permanently" killed off some of the originals, like Ollie and Ted.
>>84537523
Duke.
>>84537577
It's not like Hulk/Ironman/Cap sales are steller
This actually boosts sales
Whor sells better than male Thor
Kamala sells better than Carol ever did
>>84537614
>DC
Duke .
>>84537394
Because you're not satisfied
push orginial character->complain about pandering-> push old character->complain about pandering/why not use my fav Z lister -> push character to replace legacy like dozens of others before them-> complain about tumbler agenda->start from top
You cape fucks aren't happy and just looking for reasons to go /co/umbler.
>>84537669
And if they don't boost sales, you can bring the originals back and trumpet their return for a sales boost.
Win-Win
>>84537565
They're doing neither atm. They even brought a white character back to replace his black replacement.
>>84537577
Riri is an original character though, she'll just be putting on a familiar suit of armor, it's not like Tony Stark suddenly transformed into a 15 year old afro girl.
>>84537684
Who did Duke replace?
>>84537652
Yeah, Larkfags are triggered because black youth usurps that title.
>>84537705
You're arguing with someone who doesn't actually read comics
>>84537468
Its too bad mosaic is doomed to die. Regardless of its quality its got no chance. The last new minority cape character to be succesful in a solo book I can think of is spawn.
>>84537684
Damian sells better than Duke.
>>84537705
True, but they don't need to call her "Iron Man".
Tweak the armor and call her something else.
>>84537751
She's not going to be Iron Man. She's just making her debut in that book.
>>84537751
Names matter
No one will give the book a chance otherwise
>>84537523
Yeah cos robbie reyes and the question don't exist. Wally west was a figment of our imagination like earth 2 green lantern and hawkgirl.
>>84537751
But they do need to call her Iron Man or else nobody else will care.
>>84537789
Robbie Reyes is a marvel character though.
>>84537733
Double Checked em
In all fairness, I don't read these comics because they are iro man titles and written by Bendis, but even I know that Riri isn't a race/gender swapped character. I'm just trying to help that anon see this too.
>>84537751
Were you this opposed to a title being passed around when Monica was running around calling herself Captain Marvel? Honestly this doesn't bother me at all, a name like Iron Teen would be acceptable, but her using the name that everyone accociates wuth the armor makes sense too.
>>84537684
Damain is Bruce's partner as far as the company and most of their creators are concerned, it's just one influential writer who doesn't seem to agree with it and there in lies the entire problem. If Duke was Bruce's legacy or the new hit then he'd be the one starring in Super Sons and Teen Titans, if he was interesting enough he'd have been going up against Rose and Slade, neither the company nor the creators can draw any mileage from him in those circumstances. So he'll be a token character in Batman while run around in a dumb looking costume in All Star.
>>84537736
But does that have to do with minorties or more because the medium is largely ignored?
How many insanely popular characters have there been since then at all?
Deadpool
Harley
The majority new original characters fail or slink off into the background. Even the white ones taking up an old mantle don't have a guaranteed path to success. Nor are they always remembered. Who here is screaming about "the first" Captain America? Or thunderstrike? Anyone going ape shit when war machine really was in the Iron Man seat?
>>84537394
Well, there's a difference between replacing a white character with a minority character, and turning a minority character white. To illustrate the difference, it helps if you check your privilege.
No, seriously, this is the sort of thing that "check your privilege" actually refers to before Certain People started using it as a strawman against any social justice information they don't feel like understanding.
To elaborate, minorities live in a notably different social context from whites. Being white is seen as a "default" state by society, with any minority group being an exception to the rule. This can lead to actual people in those minority groups feeling alienated, as if they're not "really" part of society, especially if all they see in the media is white people.
This was even more prominent in the times when superhero comics were beginning to take shape, when overt racism and sexism was the norm, and nearly all characters were white males. Because many of the genre's most popular heroes were conceived around that time, they were almost all white males as well, and the few who weren't had a tendency to be highly stereotypical. While society has changed from those times and bigotry has fallen out of style, the genre has a tendency to reuse old characters instead of making new ones. They do make new characters, but those are almost never as popular as the classics.
However, many of those characters are legacy characters. Their superhero identities aren't unique to them, but passed on from hero to hero throughout the ages. This gave comic creators a way to include minorities while keeping their iconic heroes. This can be good or bad in execution, but as a premise it works and makes sense; there's nothing keeping the Green Lantern Ring from passing to a black man, or Tony Stark from making an Iron Man suit for a black woman.
>>84537813
Oh christ I got my mexicans mixed up. You know who I mean the blue beetle. Is it jaime.
Wow feel racist now. Also hungry for mexican food. Id go ti tijuana flats but no dinero.
>>84537442
This. Or don't buy or discuss these kinds of books and try to influence others to do the same
Remember: Your outrage ultimately gives Marvel more money and proves Brevroot is right about fans
>>84537864
When did I say insanely popular?
Invincible is a success but I wouldn't necessarily call it insanely popular.
>>84537394
I like that they literally made her She-Prowler but that wouldn't sell so they call her Iron Man.
>>84537891
>check your privilege
>>84537891
I wait with bated breath for nobody to understand a word of this because of their white victim complex making them honestly feel like they now get some proverbial short end of the stick.
That's if everybreply doesn't HAPPEN to be from a minority.
>>84537394
It's not OK, it's just a cheap business tactic.
>Changing an existing character is going to cause more headlines than rebooting a black hero no one knows about. Look how much more we talk about Black Iron Maiden vs. Moon Girl.
>Character familiarity. People don't like giving new things a chance, ESPECIALLY if they have to read it. That's why characters like Black Panther have to be introduced via Captain America for people to get to know him and like him and why when something like Ant-Man does well, it's shocking because Marvel didn't think it would. You can cast big actors to help put butts in seats though, hence Chris Pratt and whatnot.
>Copyright laws. Asking someone to make a new superhero means the creator gets modern-day copyright benefits. Marvel does not want to share the profit so they'd rather race/genderbend an existing product to get away with it.
>>84537891
>turning a minority character white.
how often does that happen?
>>84537891
>Being white is seen as a "default" state by white society
Fixed for honesty.
> This can lead to actual people in those minority groups feeling alienated
Because they're aliens.
>>84538099
>>Copyright laws. Asking someone to make a new superhero means the creator gets modern-day copyright benefits. Marvel does not want to share the profit so they'd rather race/genderbend an existing product to get away with it.
How does that law works?
Is it only effective if the character receive a solo book or even if they're part of a team of heroes (like that new inhuman girl in Uncanny Avengers)?
>>84537864
Honestly one of the reasons Spawn succeeded was that they never focused on his skin color and lips and instead just decided to tell a sometimes decent story. I think he had a run-in with the KKK once but that was it, Al Simmons just happened to be black.
>>84538188
>had a run in with a bunch of kkk faggots
>turned their leader black when no one was looking
>let his boys lynch and hang his sorry ass
Spawn was filled with 90s edge, but goddamn if I didn't love that shit. Honestly when I was a little kid I didn't even know he was black until I saw the movie
>>84537864
>Who here is screaming about "the first" Captain America?
Steve?
Isiah Bradley was 1) not meant to be the original Cap and 2) a one-off character for a miniseries. People care a lot about his grandson, though.
>Or thunderstrike?
He's pretty beloved on here, man.
>>84537442
Comics reached a "click bait" level of discussion.
Like, people don't even read and are already mad about the title of an article about the change of a character. It's just fucking dumb. Sometimes I think I'm talking with people who read gossip magazines instead.
Just look to all the "Captain America is Nazi now" shit. Who really reads comics, knows that Hydra isn't a Nazi. Anyone who fucking reads the recent Captain America stuff can guess miles ahead that a cosmic cube should be the cause of this.
Dumb people everywhere.
>>84538173
I don't know about the details but I know that a person who gets their original work properly copyright will receive high amounts of royalties from every appearance of that character. It's often why studios are so persistent in getting a creator to "sell the rights", whether it's "selling the movie rights" (Meaning they only get a one-time payment and no DVD or theater money) or "merchandise rights", etc. If I remember correctly, the guy who made Watchmen got screwed because he wasn't careful with the rights of his works. And then look at the guy who made Winnie the Pooh, doesn't get to see a dime of Disney's product.
>>84538318
Any creations made for Marvel and DC are under work-for-hire conditions, and all rights and profits go to Marvel and DC.
They can choose to give royalties if they want (Paul Levitz and Jim Shooter both spearheaded this at DC and Marvel respectively) but it is not a requirement.
>>84537700
Except the black replacement is still around, making it no different from how Marvel has a white version and black version of all their heroes.
>>84538296
>Just look to all the "Captain America is Nazi now" shit. Who really reads comics, knows that Hydra isn't a Nazi.
If you read comics, you'd know that the Hydra he's part of ARE Nazis. It was in the last issue of Standoff; Red Skull rebuilt Hydra as a Nazi organisation.
>>84538374
Should have mentioned licensed stuff, some Vertigo books characters, Icon books, and a handful of others are not owned by Marvel/DC, obviously.
>>84538409
Nah, it's just a means to a end. This Nazi thing always has been this to Hydra.
>>84538381
Except it is. Marvel either kills off their heroes and replaces leaving the old character to do fuck all. With Wally DC recognized their mistake and are fixing it, they couldn't just completely erase new Wally either
>>84537891
Well maybe they should fuck off back to Nigeria or Pakistan if they're upset about being minorities. Nobody's forcing them to live in white countries.
>>84537394
>>84537394
>Acting like legacy heroes of a different race are the biggest threats to Marvel comics, when everyone knows the true threat is the writing of Brian Michael Bendis
Do you even comics, bro?
>>84537394
they're not 'changing', just piggybacking off of established popular ips as an easier boost to popularity.
presumably it's the same reasoning with supergirl and she-hulk back when they were introduced.
>>84537891
Honestly this is only really irritating to me because
a) written by Bendis
b) Holy shit what happened to Lila Rhodes?
You don't need a brand new character, you already have a young, gifted black woman apprenticing under Stark
Even more so, with War Machine's death there is SO MUCH MORE to work with! You have potential character development to build on an already existing character. She can replace War Machine or Iron Man or take up the title Iron Patriot.
There's so many damned options to play with using Lila that don't feel like tokenism or feeding controversy.
Man, fuck Marvel.
>>84538157
White society. Hehe that is truly beautiful.
>>84537394
It all comes down to handouts and how you feel about it.
I personally find handouts insulting while others feel they "deserve" it or even worse, some sort of pride in having gotten it.
I also don't want white people creating or more accurately replacing established characters with "colored" characters as a solution for diversity.
What diversity? It's sill the same people with the same ideas and the same writing, who are these presumptions mostly white people that think they can just manufacture "diversity" as some sort of ego/moral trip and do it properly? This is just moral masturbation on their part.
You want to diversify a medium, you do NOT replace anyone, you add to what's already there, you're going to piss people off when you take away their favorite characters for absolutely no reason other than an assault on the white male archetype in some zero sum game, typical sjw shit.
Then when you get any opposition from taking away beloved things, you use it as "proof" or isms and the need to do more of this reductive take on media.
I hate sjws, who push for diversity while being mostly white, presuming to speak for others because marginalized voices and the philosophy they want to infect others with, particularly minorities creating a weak, helpless, ineffectual mindset.
I hate sjws so much and before anyone accuses me of being white I'm not, sjws are a threat to the advancement and prosperity of minorities.
>>84538754
>It all comes down to handouts and how you feel about it.
>I personally find handouts insulting while others feel they "deserve" it or even worse, some sort of pride in having gotten it.
>
>I also don't want white people creating or more accurately replacing established characters with "colored" characters as a solution for diversity.
>What diversity? It's sill the same people with the same ideas and the same writing, who are these presumptions mostly white people that think they can just manufacture "diversity" as some sort of ego/moral trip and do it properly? This is just moral masturbation on their part.
>You want to diversify a medium, you do NOT replace anyone, you add to what's already there, you're going to piss people off when you take away their favorite characters for absolutely no reason other than an assault on the white male archetype in some zero sum game, typical sjw shit.
>Then when you get any opposition from taking away beloved things, you use it as "proof" or isms and the need to do more of this reductive take on media.
>I hate sjws, who push for diversity while being mostly white, presuming to speak for others because marginalized voices and the philosophy they want to infect others with, particularly minorities creating a weak, helpless, ineffectual mindset.
>I hate sjws so much and before anyone accuses me of being white I'm not, sjws are a threat to the advancement and prosperity of minorities.
If the reaction to Cannon Busters is any indication people just aren't okay with minorities period.
>>84538538
I'd agree but given Marvel's recent track record they it doesn't look too good. They constantly switch out previously established heroes with brand new ones just to make a quick buck off of controversy. If they did logical legacy heroes this >>84538651 would be fine, but they just want to feed off of outrage and don't care about making a good new generation of heroes because we'll have status quo in a month
>>84538754
Honestly you ask me its lose lose unless you're white or totally cool with mostly white heroes.
There's no gradual introduction of new minority heroes. They'll come, fail, fall into obscurity, and die.
Fact is you either race swap legacy characters thus alienating white fans or gradually try to make new minirity ones that are doomed to fail. Or just leave it as is. Enjoy the hero as just a hero and accept they're gonna always be mostly white. If your cool with that cool. If not...oh well too bad. Cos white people give less than half a shit about what minorities want. Theyve stated here plenty that as the majority of comic readers (as they claim) its basically whites who should be pandered too.
>>84537559
I hate when people do this.
They told me to go to pol some time ago. I went and saw I am very different from them. As much as I am from you.
>>84538257
But here isn't even a strong indicator of who is buying the comics or what.
Character "replacement" is just a cycle of capeshit. Only difference is Marvel is diversifying the replacements beyond hetro white American male yammering on about big footsteps to fill.
>>84538188
I thought we never knew his race until long into the run. Spawn did pretty well mostly because the edge and something fresh.
>>84538012
Then what do you define as success/popular? One of the things about the big two is that they trash titles that would be considered hits by any other publisher.
I use the insane term because that is pretty much the only way a character has a chance of coming back instead of falling off into obscurity.
>>84538157
I'm going to assume you're not American or a retard.
Because the entire fucking foundation of US is built off melting pot where you can come over with 5 cents and end up with 5 million.
>>84537891
I hope this is pasta. Because the level of maturity/objectivity discussion you're aiming for in this post just doesn't exist here.
>>84538651
Shhh. Don't let Bendis know about established characters you like. He'll terrible things to them. Just wait to he gets distracted by something shiny and hope the next author wants to develop on them. Here, I've got Arno stashed away in this box! You can hide Lila in there too until the Bendis storm calms down.
>>84537669
Kamala also bothered to build up a supporting cast and world that are equally interesting and important as the superheroics while Carol got stuck with KSD. Granted, creative direction for Kamala's book is now beholden to what the more important writers cook up for her, but it was fun while it lasted.
>>84537636
Couple of design tweaks and it's a solid, if somewhat bland, superhero costume.
>>84539144
Honestly, I mainly just saw a chance to say "check your privilege" and have the actual meaning of the phrase be a relevant and valid point.
>>84537394
Because brand new characters with no relation to any sort of legacy tend to flop hard as all hell.
>>84537394
Superhero comics are zombies living off the dead past, selling to zombie institutions like comic book shops. Of course they can't introduce characters without a pre-existing name.
Star Wars has an easier time of it because they have all these generic titles (Jedi Knight, Stormtrooper) that can be filled by any person of any race.
>>84539265
>I don't read comics
Yes, just like Barry Allan and Hal Jordan
>>84539318
ignore this post
misread the one I replied to
>>84537983
Shitting on Jaime is retarded to begin with, but you just made yourself look even worse. Holy fuck. Never post here again.
>>84539144
>I'm going to assume you're not American or a retard.
So, if they're not American, are they still retarded?
>>84538979
The problem effectively arises from overly long legacy. Most media runs on multiple franchises with different settings, different casts. Comics are stuck in one shared universe per publisher with neverending character arcs running for decades.
Anyone else trying to make their content more diverse would just add some minorities in the cast of the next work they produce after that one concluded. But capes lost ability to do it the easy way.
>>84537394
>Why are people OK with changing characters to make them minorities instead of giving minorities characters to call their own?
Because we know how well original characters sell these days, white or not.
>>84539185
Honestly it's not even that I like her that much.
It's just a far superior option to making a very similar original character without the background and options.
>the Bendis storm calms down
Until he dies, goes senile or quits the storm will rage. He's not going to get fired, unless he fucks the CEO's daughter.
>>84537394
>changing characters to make them minorities
You do realize that that woman isn't Tony Stark, right?
>>84537394
You're absolutely right, but normies who care about this kinda thing won't buy a book called "SIF: GODDESS OF THUNDER" or "IRON WOMAN" or whatever.
But they WILL buy a book that has the same name as that movie they liked. It's all about marketing to people who don't really like comics, and it works.
>>84537394
because characters are more than codenames and powers and using legacy names helps them stick around
>>84537652
He's fucking harmless in the grand scheme of things
Also Damien still exists
>>84539612
>"IRON WOMAN"
That's not a superhero name though, that's a command.
>>84537983
This isn't a chatroom you fucking mongoloid
Nobody cares what you had for lunch
>>84537523
Wally fucking West was a delinquent black youth for 2 years before they retconned it.
Helena Bertinelli is still black.
>>84538979
I'm a non white person in a white majority country, I expect that the majority of characters are going to be white because the majority of creators and majority of the audience is white, that's not an affront to me but what is, is when others presume to speak for me.
I don't have a problem with that at all. Why would I? If there is not enough of a certain type of character, what I want is people of that background to make them, I put no obligation on white people nor do I want them to represent me or other minorities, that's just faux diversity.
One of the most empowering things one can do is to make their own, build their own thing, pride and accomplishment come from this. When you go to others to make for you, you gain nothing, in fact you lose your agency.
What is the point of all this diversity? Diversity for diversity's sake? Is there an actual intent behind all this? If it's just to wank off to how diverse comics are and to get that feeling of doing good, despite actually doing anything? I want no part of it and I sure as hell don't want it done in my name.
>>84539784
The point is to sell comics.
If the characters sell, they'll stick around.
If they don't, they'll eventually go away. Or die in an event, that's always popular.
why is it these picture books for adults never depict an accurate portrayal of a black woman?
op's image is just a white woman with a tan and a wig
>>84539828
Is it working? Are comics doing better overall? Guess we'll have to wait and see. To look back in a few years, but if they really wanted better sales they should look at manga and see what they are doing that makes them more successful.
Instead of creating controversy/conflict, that ends up pissing off many in the community. Whatever I'm personally done with comics.
>>84537636
>In the 90s.
>Let's just make our own. Meteor Man, Blankman while pretty shitty at least were their own
>Everyone forgets them
>2010's
>Let's just make the white heroes black.
>Groundbreaking, daring, brave, #whitetears
>>84540094
>Are comics doing better overall
yes
>>84538229
>I was a little kid I didn't even know he was black until I saw the movie
In a way, it worked that they were able to get you into the door with a cool character that you had legitimate interest in rather than forcing you to like him because you would be socially shunned.
>>84537394
But anon people are not OK with this people are pissed
>>84537891
Back to tumblr with you.
>>84539071
>Only difference is Marvel is diversifying the replacements beyond hetro white American male yammering on about big footsteps to fill.
That's only a difference if you haven't been paying any attention since the late 70's, but I agree with your shit.
The bigger difference is in illiterate nu-males, and marketers who have emotionally invested an illusion of social progress based on what pantone scales are used in making new characters.
McDuffee is dead and I don't feel so good myself.
>>84539612
Rather they did not buy a good book like Journey into Mystery.
>>84539784
I partially disagree. I don't expect people to match the genetics of the characters they're writing, but I agree cultural knowledge helps.
>>84539952
Because bendis while having black daughters, mostly fetishizes black people rather than really understanding them.
>>84537684
He said while every Robin is currently active, and Damien has not one but TWO books lined up
Good thing people are catching onto minority legacy characters. It's boring as fuck already, most people I know don't give a fuck about this as long as they don't get rid of Tony and if they do, they will just drop Ironman titles.
>>84537652
>Damian
>that one girl in DKR
>its a travesty a sidekick is a minority
>>84540786
That's funny, 15 years ago Tony was boring and no one cared about him. Now that he is getting replaced people care all of a sudden. Iron Man is a C hero at best before all the movie. Most people you know are casuals.
>>84540910
Actually Ironman has had a pretty consistent following for ages now, not sure where you got that info from.
Cap on the other hand has had huge dips in popularity. Sorry but these switches are made for casuals and if they are getting bored of it then they'll just do something else soon.
Thank fuck.
>>84538099
But chris pratt wasn't very big before GoTG
>>84540910
I've always imagined in the Avengers Team that Thor was the C-lister. Cap had showed up in the Spiderman 90s cartoon along with Ironman and war Machine with the Fantastic 4.
Ironman got his own cartoon along with Hulk and Captain America had a planned show but got cancelled. Thor only got a few cameos in the 90s animated universe.
Though, Ironman did suffer from having Tony Stark show up with everyone screaming "Put on the suit! Punch a robot! This is boring"
>>84541014
>iron man has had a pretty consistent following for ages now
Not who youre replying to but you got a source for this bullshit?
>>84537394
>nonwhites
>minority
This is your /pol/-message for the day.
>>84537442
>Stop reading capeshit.
Casuals can't do that, continuity is important to them, you see.
>>84537468
I buy characters that only appear as HeroClix. So I guess I'm part of the problem too
>>84540910 Would't the same be said for Thor did people really care about him till the movies?
>>84542439
Thor actually had a strong following too, Cap was the only one who really suffered sadly.
I mean, it annoys me the shit out of me when they're high profile heroes. So as far as I'm concerned, Iron Man, Whor and FalCap are just brazen stunts. Ms Marvel is great though.
But if it's some D-lister the mainstream doesn't really think too much about(e.g. Jaime Reyes as the third Blue Beetle, or for a more high profile example, John Stewart being essentially the most mainstream Green Lantern because of the cartoon), I really don't mind.
>>84537815
Monica was a shit Captain Marvel only made to save the name. She doesn't even have a connection to the Kree like all the others in Marvel's Marvel family
>>84537442
>not reading Valiant
>>84537864
>Or thunderstrike?
M-me...
>>84543285
Ms. Marvel works because no one was using the name. Carol had moved on from it and it was up for the taking.
>>84537394
>I would be insulted if someone kowtowed to me and told me "Oh here, we made Falcon white so you can have a white superhero.
To be fair they've been doing this in movies for years. But i actually agree, though i doubt my reasons are the same as yours going by what i usually read here.
>>84537533
....
Wut?
>>84537577
I agree. I mean Marvel hasn't done anything significant with Blade in ages. Glad Black Panther is getting some love though.
>>84543636
Also the most famous Captain Marvel is the DC one so it's not like anybody would really care who at Marvel is using any Marvel name.
>Why are people OK with changing characters to make them minorities instead of giving minorities characters to call their own?
Because people STILL FUCKING COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS
seriously. Look at what happened when they created Kamala. There were accusations of pandering and people throwing "sand nigger" everywhere.
Minority fans can't have anything. People say "don't make minority legacy heroes" or "race changes", but the second they create a NEW character that's of a different race, sexuality, or whatever, people STILL GET PISSED.
Look at Overwatch. That game has six fucking white people in it already. They add Pharah's mom, and they go "GOD WHERE ARE ALL THE WHITE PEOPLE THERE ARE TWO MIDDLE EASTERN PEOPLE WE ARE BEING HIT WITH A FUCKING DELUGE"
Nerds need to be honest. You just don't want diverse characters in your fiction at all.
>>84544076
>"Minority fans can't have anything"
Get fucked.
>>84544115
name one minority character that's been introduced that didn't have a bazillion fucking people falling all over themselves to talk about how they were the worst and that people were being pandered to, then
>>84544165
I don't see what fans being paranoid idiots has to do with Marvel doing race and/or gender swaps and legacies for the sake of controversy has anything to do with each other outside of buying into Marvel's nonsense. Honestly I'm more annoyed they keep pushing the controversy angle and how you know these guys are going to get killed off in the stupidest manner. It's all fake.
>>84544326
>push the controversy angle
see, there, that's my point
doing a minority ANYTHING gets labeled "controversial" by you fucks
let's stop and think here. say they decided to debut an all new hero who was black, gay, and trans. Their having a book means /co/ favorite doesn't get one. Are you telling me people wouldn't fucking piss themselves in anger?
Them existing at all is a controversy to you people. You just want all your heroes to be white people.
>>84544415
No, I mean Tom Brevoort has literally stepped out and talked about this. Doing controversial things like Norman ducking Gwen Stacy boosts sales for them. Making these guys creates drama and makes buzz. It's all about sales, they don't care about diversity
>>84544495
wow, Tom Brevoort officially said something that all comic publishers have been doing since 19fucking85
>>84544165
>Bazillion
So are you talking a small but vocal minority of people complaining on the internet or the overall reception of a character?
What a wanker.
>>84544524
That doesn't change the point of how hollow this is. Do you want to be a pawn in some game or do you want them to fuck off and make good stories instead? Minorities deserve better then to just be gimmicks for a #1 and I won't settle for them being a sideshow attraction.
>>84537394
>Why are people OK with changing characters to make them minorities instead of giving minorities characters to call their own?
The simple fact is, while new characters can sell, new mantles don't. Not in Big 2 comics in the 2010s. They sputter out and never rise above the C-list. The only way to get people's attention is to give them an A-list mantle.
>>84537394
>Why are people OK with changing characters to make them minorities instead of giving minorities characters to call their own?
I'm not a big comics reader or cartoon watcher in all honesty, but this is what I've been wondering lately with all these character reboots to be more multicultural. Why don't they just make new superheroes? I know it's hard to beat an established brand but eh.
>>84538145
Not often, but the way people act you would think that shit happened every other day.
I hope this is like batman behind where Stark is her adviser.
She'll be in the suit saving people....while Tony is still in bed, hungover.....muttering incoherent gibberish into a microphone.
>>84545113
>Batman Behind
>>84541177
They're ALL C-listers
That's why no one bought their rights
Spider-man and the X-men were A-list
Daredevil and the Fantastic Four were B-list
Thor/Cap/IM were C-list with Ironman being the least popular
>>84545139
Well that came out wrong or horribly right.
>>84541196
I know people always found his armor cool at least. And when the movie came out I remember interviews with people coming out theaters asking who they want in the next movie they were all either asking for Mandarin or MODOK so they were likely fans of the cartoon at least. The old avengers cartoon from fox kid sucked and some people contributed that to no one from the big 3 (Iron Man, Thor, and captain America) being there to lead the team. He may not be Spidey or X-Men levels (cmon its fucking Spider-Man and X-Men) but people constantly saying how iron man was nothing until the movie is one of this board's gross exaggerations.
I believe the numerous diversity characters are a byproduct, not a cause, of Marvels current hole it finds itself. Dont misinterpret, I actually do like Kamala and Reyes (whot honestly deserves more attention because god knows Miles is getting it), but they were easy brownie points in Marvels current clickbait mindset. They are more focused about generating buzz than good writing or good characters right now and its really starting to show. I know creating new characters isnt easy, because its practically catching lightning in a bottle in terms of the desired popularity they want, but why should we care about them if Marvel doesnt? Theres half a dozen Spider themed characters they dont know how to incorporate and when the books stop selling they resort back to "make another one" and the cycle repeats. Long story short, they need to clean house with writers (SLOTT AND BENDIS)
>>84544495
Controversial is clearly the wrong word. Things like the whole Norman incident clearly are because Peter's villain, as well as a middle aged man, is fucking his young girlfriend. Adding a new character with a weird background isn't a controversy. It generates buzz but there is no instant controversy just because that. If Iron Fist found a Mexican disciple named Eduardo it would be all over comic news but unless he runs around destroying people like a mortal kombat character in gory fatalities or something truly unethical he isn't controversial.
>>84544165
Jaime Reyes
>>84545243
Horribly wrong for James Gordon, Batman is finally ready to rape and its decades in the future after he died.
>>84539344
Oh no I wasn't respectful to the boring minority iron man knock off of an actually decent character.
>>84544165
John Stewart
>>84537394
>Why are people OK with changing characters to make them minorities instead of giving minorities characters to call their own?
I've always wondered why Marvel doesn't push it's PRE-EXISTING MINORITY CHRACTERS?
Like in an age of diversity, why the FUCK would you kill an original character like War Machine but constantly push Miles Morales?
>>84545727
What would be a better term for this? Clickbait doesn't really work as it's a comic but my point is there's no actual desire for diversity and it's all marketing for the most part. Like introducing Jane Foster as Thor to get buzz from the media and idiots whining/praising it and then discarding her like nothing like what's going to happen soon. It's just strange that people fall for it every time and think they give a fuck.
>>84545913
Because Miles is basically Bendis's baby and borderline mary sue OC creation. So yeah its one morons fanfic given the wheel. Which is sad because I dont hate Miles, I just wish he had more going for him and perhaps a different persona. Certainly needs a nerf thats for sure
>>84537394
I'm OK with it or rather I don't bitch about it, because people seem to be OK with it and I'm tired of trying to argue my point or attempt to convince people something is better. If people excitedly want to suck down shit that's on them. I'm done no one listens to my complaints, I'm like a minority of a minority and no one gives a shit about what I have to say. I just don't buy or associate with what I don't like. That's about all that has any positive affect in my life.
>>84537611
>Legacy characters have been a thing for decades
Doesn't mean they aren't stupid
>>84544592
I've never once seen a New minority character cone out in the last five years without people yelling sjw, gimmick or pandering.
Do you guys not realize this. You say you'd like minority characters to just be good characters in good stories but look at ms marvel. She was bitched about being an sjw mudslide pandering character well over a year after coming out.
There's no winning no matter what. Its either a white character or a shitty agenda. No one allows these characters to be anything else.
>>84546089
Stop repeating yourself, there's always going to be idiots. Now explain how this changes how shallow Marvel is with this. I'd be fine if they were committed but they're not, they're made that clear
>>84546079
>I don't read comics
>>84538099
>>Changing an existing character is going to cause more headlines than rebooting a black hero no one knows about. Look how much more we talk about Black Iron Maiden vs. Moon Girl.
Wtf? Black Iron Maiden and Moon Girl are the same thing. Both are racebent versions of original characters.
>>84546154
That was my first post in this thread.
Also you have no idea what marvel is committed to. You just assume they don't give a shit about the quite of he stories because you don't like them. Pushing diversity doesn't mean neglecting story. I imagine the writers give a shit.
>>84546249
Moon girl isn't race bent. She's still the same race as moonboy
>>84546265
Does it really count as pushing diversity when you're just going to bring back the old Cap, Iron Man, Thor, etc.? That still sounds like a gimmick just like a lot of the identity swaps we had in the past. Notice how Iron Man is no longer Eddie March or Rhodey
>>84546265
>Marvel caring about story
>Even though Bendis doesnt read other books or remember his own canon
They pull this stuff from their ass anon. I think more diversity in comics is fine but not if it sacrifices good storytelling
>>84538979
The problem is Marvel constantly gives its white characters multiple chances and multiple pushes. If they were to push their pre-existing minortiy characters that much we would'nt be have these new minority replacements.
How many times has Moon Knight got a chance for a solo book despite shit sales? Why not give War Machine or Luke Cage a chance at another solo book?
>>84537442
>Y....yeah Marvel is bad, b...but DC is j...just as bad, r...right bros?
Mouseketeer logic
>>84546620
>dc can do no wrong. What do you mean Geoff johns pissed on watchmen. That was meta genius.
No one sucks company cock like a dc fan.
>>84546158
Apparently you don't, because how many of them are ever relevant one year out from their inception?
>>84547005
>muh Watchmen is a sacred cow and the greatest comic ever made!!!!!
How to spot a casual
>>84544076
Here's your (You).
No one complains about Ana. Do you even play Overwatch?
>>84537394
Can someone give me a list of all the characters that have been changed into minorities in order of happening?
>>84549856
Should it included relatively irrevalent ones like Hank Pym handing off Giant-Man or just big names?
>>84537394
This. Creating original characters would be truly progressive.
Marvel wants to be "inclusive" and "diverse"...but...
...corporate branding dictates the requirement of an established IP.
Thus a cynical combo of corporate and pandering that results in this trend.
Huh
You know, if they want controversy and they want attention, they should make Black Panther white
After all this diversity and change it'd be a huge shitstorm, yet Marvel would have a moral smokescreen in which to hide what with a black Irin Man and etc.
>>84549856
>>84549965
You /pol/ fuckwits understand that these are different characters, right?
Peter Parker didn't magically transform into a teenaged black kid named Miles.
For fuck's sake! Most of these supehero names are general descriptions.
Is this really such a hard concept for you to grasp?
>>84549956
Just big names, please.
>>84550082
I'm just curious, anon. I'm not trying to push some racist agenda or anything. Sorry to have upset you.
>>84550027
*White Tiger*
And OMG! it was such a /pol/ shitstorm! Don't you remember! Oh, you don't? Because there wasn't one?
But then... who's the special fragile snowflake minority?
>>84537394
Its getting to the point where I prefeer the Movies over the comics at this point.
Everything that happens in the movies is my headcanon now. I'm slowly phasing 90% of the comics out of my life because of all this clickbait shit Marvel and DC are pushing out.
Since when is it acceptable to just do something "controversial" every fucking month instead of writing a decent story?
I'm actually starting to miss Slott's Spiderman compared to what we got now.
>>84550114
Agenda or no, it's basic fucking logic. And I'm getting sick and tired of this structured /pol/ shitposting flamewar coming at /co/ every day because someone wants to pretend that this repeated racist crap has anything to do with comics.
I'm sure you think you're innocent, but Jesus Fucking Christ, you damned well know these threads have nothing at all to do with being a comics fan.
You knew that and you're still bumping their shit-thread.
>>84550330
You're thinking irrationally. I have the 3 Miles Morales collections sitting right next to me and enjoy them. I just wanted to know who has been changed for my knowledge. I'm fairly new to the comics world and this is a topic that comes up from time to time and I'd like to be educated. Again, sorry that I made you mad.
>>84550082
I was merely pointing out that the corporate pressure to "stick to established brands/success" is in fact the bigger problem.
Diversity is very much welcomed by me. I feel this is a cynical version of it.
X-23 was popular in her own right then they took away her distinct identity by making her Wolverine.
>Oh hey black people, you can't accomplish anything on your own, so here, have a white rich guy give you something for free.
Good work Marvel.
>>84537394
I'm apathetic
Brevoort said it himself, if you want to hurt a comic, don't be mad, be apathetic
>>84554270
Marvel is a cancer. I stopped reading years ago and every now and then I catch a little snippet of what's happening.
The big two can't kill themselves quick enough. God bless the regressive left.
>>84537394
we should start whitewashing black folklore since people seem so keen of giving them our stuff
White John Henry anyone?
>>84554527
Tupacs songs where written by a white guy he paid $4 an hour.
Jazz was invented my a musician accidentally falling over some band equipment. Thaddeus O'Mally was Jazz's founder, however his sound was later stolen.
>>84554527
>White John Henry anyone?
Well in this case it would be a white guy that took up the hammer after John Henry died. Don't forget, Rhodey died partially to make room for her.
>>84541494
>continuity is important to them, you see.
Then they should read the Mignolaverse.
>>84554651
No, I think he's going on about how BLM is attempting to rewrite history and claim every single thing they can as having really been done by them while giving their own race origins such as that they where the original humans and white people where cave dwelling monsters, or that we're invading aliens, or that their magic black scientist wanted to make the most evil thing he could to show people of the world it wasn't all bad so he made white people.
>>84554736
What?
>>84554736
no, I meant whitewash john henry,
I said it when they cast a black guy for johnny storm in F4 and I'll say it again for black Iron Maiden (which while probably being a shitty comic, would be a decent album)
If you can't make yer own heroes to look up to and have to re-brand ours, then we'll re-brand the ones you DON'T want and you'll cry racism anyways
>>84555172
Lurk more social media. I'd say it's just a small group of flat-earth tier retards if each post like this didn't get thousands of retweets, likes, etc.
Another favorite is blackwashing historical figures like Beethoven or claiming that the first president wasn't george washington, but was actually a black guy.
they are so starved for an actual culture that they are doing fanfiction.
>>84537468
>wholly original characters don't sell.
Deadpool and Harley quinn are only about 25 years old.
>>84555293
>>84555279
>>84554736
You seem upset.
>>84555344
neither of them are wholly original
>>84555388
mostly annoyed with a dash of exasperation as western civilization crumbles
repetitively apathetic on marvels new BK Kids Club tier roster
>>84555279
>If you can't make yer own heroes to look up to and have to re-brand ours, then we'll re-brand the ones you DON'T want and you'll cry racism anyways
Doesn't matter anymore if anyone from any group can or can't, people like Bendis will do it anyway and people like Bendis are responsible for this.
>you
>you'll
No, Bendis.
>>84540159
There's honestly some potential in a late 90's off-brand superhero shared universe even if it is just these guys and like, orgasmo.
>>84554585
Source?
>>84538034
>>84539952
>op's image is just a white woman with a tan and a wig
>Those lips
>that nose
no
>>84537891
I'm a pretty brown mexican. When I go to the US in business or vacations, I act like other people there, who act like most people from my hometown because it turns out north-american metropoli are pretty much the same save for what food you can find in food trucks and what music plays in the radio.
I don't go there with the biggest mustache ever waving my sombrero while sipping tequila and shooting the sky at the sound of arrib arriba! In response people are often clueless to my ethnicity, I've been asked if I was italian so many times I actually learned italian to mess with people.
People who move to America and try to force everyone there to adapt to the most faulty stereotype of what their "culture" is like, are puppets who don't respect themselves nor America. When you are making a living in America, you're American, or you're trouble.
Identity politics is dissident cancer killing society from within.
>>84538754
It really is just a bunch of valley girls and middle-class suburban betas telling us we are not mature enough to build rapport with people who have diferent melanin levels and not important enough to desserve new IP's.
They don't repaint fan-favorites as minorities because they care about minorities, they deconstruct characters because they know it will piss off the successful white "normies" they personally hate. No wonder the first people to get "culturally enriched" were heroes most likely to have been read by their fathers when growing up.
>>84538979
The problem is you feel you desserve being pandered to.
I lived in Japan for a while. Didn't mean a certain percentage of their media output had to be adapted to my home culture just because I was there.
>>84540094
The #1 issue of every pandercomic sells as well as an average issue of Batman.
Then again, Batman sells like that 52 months straight, and pandercomics go down to 20k after #2.
Overall comics aren't doing well save for Batman and Batfamily/Rogues books, even Spidey and the X-Men are down in sales after years of true fans getting relentlessly shat on.
>>84544524
Do you really believe rich jews give a damn about your race? They think everyone who's not a jew is not a real human ffs. Every pandering move is motivated by dollars.
>>84557057
>dumb field niggers
>>84557321
That guy bringing up the Jews is stupid but he is right about it just being a gimmick for a quick buck. Is it really pushing diversity if you're just going to off them for the originals? This is in no way something to celebrate even if, especially if, you want diverosty in comics.
>>84537577
> I don't get why they just don't use the black characters currently created?
Who is Sam Wilson?
Oh wait, people still complained.
>>84557411
Don't people only complain about him being Cap at most and even then he's the least bitched about of all these legacies? It's not like you can stop idiots from being idiots about something, I don't know what you want.
>>84557451
I don't want anything, I was just bringing up an example of a character that fit your description that became a legacy only to still be complained about (at least compared to the relatively minor discourse CapBucky caused)
If idiots are going to be idiots, it doesn't matter what type of character they are or how long they've been established; they're gonna complain and Marvel is just going to try what they can to sell comics.
>>84557309
But that's exactly what they think we are. They think they can throw a progressive bone at us that tastes like shit and expect us to thank them for it.
>>84557483
Sorry I jumped the gun and thought you were going to head in the direction of any discourse means that comic fans are all immoral bigots which would've gotten silly for both of us. I think the anon is referring to using characters like Falcon or Blue Marvel as themselves rather then creating disposable legacy characters for the buzz and a quick buck for a new #1.
>>84557598
I understand that: like of they were used as legacies and were still written as themselves as opposed to just sort of boring legacy characters with the one characteristic that separates them (race, gender, etc) then I'm sure there wouldn't be as bad of an "uproar" as it happens.
Its very clearly up to the writer to make it work, to be honest. Like any character CAN be interesting if written well like say Riri in this example, but because this is Bendis that's writing, we can expect all the cliches and horrible writing clutches (like Bendis Speak) that he's been using since day 1 and that's gonna suck (seriously, there was a thread yesterday of scans of his first independent comic and besides the ugly art, its got ALL the Bendis hallmarks. Its incredible)
It just sucks that some of the reactionaries here jump the gun at the fact that the character is X or Y and not at who's the person writing it. At least based on the thirty or so threads that happened the day the announcement was made.
>>84537394
lol they did NOT change Tony Stark to a teenage black girl.
Obviously, not all characters do this, but you must of heard of characters having proteges taking the mantle?
Things gotta change sometime, characters grow old, have to pass the torch....
>>84557725
I have mixed feelings on making established character into legacies rather then just running with what they have and seeing were it goes but yeah, your opinion is something I can agree with. It's why I normally try to avoid online discussions for comics with female or minority leads as it gets unbearable from all angles.
>>84557778
>Implying Tony isn't just going to come back and Riri vanishes off the face of 616
>>84538531
>waaaaaah why are people trying to make their lives better
Deal with it lad
>>84537891
>Well, there's a difference between replacing a white character with a minority character, and turning a minority character white
No there isn't. Rationalize it all you want, do all the mental gymnastics you want, but you're still a hypocrite spewing double standards.
>>84558182
>It doesn't matter what the facts are or what situation anyone is in, I'm still going to boil it down to whatever lets me call you a hypocrite.
Just because your thought process ends at a certain point doesn't mean the facts end at that point.
>>84537891
>it helps if you check your privilege.
/co/mbler's not real, they said.
>>84558199
My thought process ends where it needs to. You can't deal with the fact that you're a hypocrite so you've set up a whole system of thought processes to convince yourself that you're not. But hey, I guess you have to do something with that gender studies degree.
>>84558202
/co/mbler isn't real man. It was just b8.
>>84537891
I bet you would shit your pants if black superheroes started passing on their identities to white people.
>>84558209
>My thought process ends where it needs to.
...for you to call people names and act smug. The inconvenient facts that you're ignoring still exist in reality.
>>84558218
They exist in your reality. Because you're a hypocrite.
>>84558165
What's this about minority groups trying to make their lives better. I heard it was all just evil mindless white people "hypocritically" and "condescendingly" "insulting" them by trying to be considerate of their actions, and the "real" members of those minority groups are vehemently and loudly against all their attempts no matter how sensible they are.
Of course, the people who say that usually (claim to) fall into the latter category.
>>84558223
>They exist in your reality.
Which is the actual reality, where people exist and things happen. In the actual reality, two different things aren't necessarily exactly the same.
>Because you're a hypocrite.
In your reality, which ends with "these things look similar, therefore they're exactly the same and I get to use my favorite word".
>>84558239
>What's this about minority groups trying to make their lives better.
Constant bombardment of such can cause self hate in children and even as adults with a wish for more Euro centric features.
>I heard it was all just evil mindless white people "hypocritically" and "condescendingly" "insulting" them by trying to be considerate of their actions, and the "real" members of those minority groups are vehemently and loudly against all their attempts no matter how sensible they are.
No. That's you trying to undermine their argument with cheap strawmans.
>Of course, the people who say that usually (claim to) fall into the latter category.
Ok.
>>84537442
Perfect answer.
>>84558259
>In your reality, which ends with "these things look similar, therefore they're exactly the same and I get to use my favorite word".
And in your reality you like to make up distinctions in order to convince yourself that something is good when it does what you want but bad when it doesn't do what you want. Because you're ahypocrite.
>>84550027
>they should make Black Panther white
I support this 100%
>>84558285
>And in your reality you like to make up distinctions
The difference is not "made up". It is based on facts which exist in reality.
>NUH UH NAMECALL NAMECALL NAMECALL NAMECALL
You have yet to explain how the aforementioned facts don't exist despite their existence.
>>84537891
>While society has changed from those times and bigotry has fallen out of style
Except towards white people.
>>84550027
>>84558305
>>84537394
How's she gonna fit all that hair into that helmet?
>>84558215
Anyone remember Kasper as the Black Panther? Did people freak about that back in the day?
>>84558165
How does this make their lives better? We're talking about a company that admitted to doing this as clickbait and are totally just going to restore the originals back soon anyways. What part of that are you for?
What kind of name is Riri? Really should have her claim her own alias, would be extremely annoying if she gets annoyed at allies for calling her "man" because she can't pick her own alias. Such things are usually meant as insults, like a villain calling her an Iron-Man knockoff or something.
>>84558366
I wasn't talking about the company but in general. I personally also disagree a bit with the way Marvel/DC are going by now.
>>84537394
>Reading cape shit
>Reading cape shit written by Bendis
No-one to blame but yourself. Just let the tumblr moviefags have their diversity cookie and go read something good.
>>84537394
When are we getting more Asian or Native American legacy characters? This BLM shit is tiresome
>>84558380
I'm guessing it's the clickbait and tokenism too? A lot of people confuse it for diversity
>>84537394
We're okay with this because only normies and moviefags give the slightest shit about Iron Man.
Make him a Jamacan Quadripeligac for all we care.
>>84558420
That would be infinitely more interesting than this
>>84537596
>Black dude
>power is a combination of stealing and rape
Bravo Marvel
>>84558331
>Marvel, 2005
>"You people are disgusting! You don't care about real diversity, this is nothing but... but tokenism!"
Oh the iron knee.
>>84558442
I get that feeling a lot when I read Marvel from the 2000s and these issues pop up
>>84558429
Pretty much this. I wouldn't mind the new Iron Man as much if they didn't just cut and paste Moon Girl.
>>84537394
>giving minorities characters to call their own
It's not about appeasing particular minorities.
There is something wrong with you if you can only see this topic from a position of mental segregation, where blacks want black characters, and women want women, and Zoroastrians want heroes and characters who share their religion.
Diversity in art is about making the work more interesting for everyone.
It's about making the faces on the page or the screen look more like the faces most of see when we walk out the door in big cities in first world countries.
I agree in principle that it's better to invent new characters than change old ones, but by the same token, it;s ridiculous being precious about old whores like Batman or Spidey, who'd already seen dozens of variations before most people reading this were even born.
>>84558635
The problem is the marketing, execution, and people who do any mental segregation in that style.
>>84558394
>When are we getting more Asian or Native American legacy characters?
We are getting then as well but you don't notice them even when have they have there own identity.
>>84558777
I still want to fuck Silk's ass. Did her ongoing stay cute?
