Hey guys, weird question- to people that jave read the original coloring for Flex Mentallo, is it better?
If Flex is my favorite story of all time and I don't care about blowing 50$ on ebay, is it worth it to have the originals?
Also, general comic recoloring merit argument thread I guess.
It's about the most subjective thing there is. You can look at more comparison pics and figure out how you want to go.
I prefer the original but I have good taste so maybe it'll be different for you.
>>84536546
epic banter /b/ro
Neither of them look particularly good so the recolor was pointless unless they didn't have the original stuff to reprint somehow.
I'd say if you like the idea of the book there's no difference.
>>84536624
I believe Morrison and Quitely asked for the recolor because they weren't happy with the original.
>>84536317
>be flex mentallo
>be comic about how it's okay to enjoy childlike whimsy
>be comic where "realism in comics" is the bad guy
>get recolored to be more gray and realistic
I am not sure there is an example where a recolor has look 'better'.
More Modern sure but I don't think that is better, or at worse like pic-related the white levels get all funky and the book looks really strange.
There are a couple of examples where Color having been added to a B&W comic was an improvement or as good in its own ways but I can't think of any completely positive recolors.
>>84536317
The recolor is better because it's what Morrison and Quitely wanted.
>>84536317
They're both enjoyable IMO. This isn't one of those cases where the recolor is objectively worse (which unfortunately happens a lot), it just gives the comic a different vibe.
Morrison and Quitely apparently prefer the newer version, so if you want the 'official' one that's the one you should go with, but there's nothing wrong with preferring the original colors.
>>84536317
The original was just another churn out job by the colorist. The recoloring is based on what the creators wanted/intended it to look like.
>>84536317
I prefer the "original" coloring, even though Morrison and Quitely do not.
Despair.
>>84537359
The left is superior
Newer is better, right? Why wouldn't you want THE BEST?
>>84537376
Artists are fallible
This is a good lesson
>>84537517
>"Its another Alan Moore comic and we want dat Watchmen money, so make it more magenta and orange." - DC, 1988
>>84536317
I think Mentallo's recolor is stupid but I think the Killing Joke's is fine.
Big Guy did it right
The worst examples aren't when the colors are changed but when the style of the coloring is changed.
Shading and Lighting bugs me more when updated.
the Sandman recolor in particular really bothers me
they ruined the whole psychedelic atmosphere it had
>>84536317
>image.jpg
fuck off
Coloring is always an interesting thing.
I think it's obvious that readers prefer a larger, more dynamic palette of colors to work with, and the most in-demand colorists (FCO Plascencia, Jordie Bellaire, et al) indicate that preference.
I just always find it interesting that "recolorings" always tend to simplify things. It's exceedingly rare to hear about a re-coloring (of something not black-and-white) that actually adds more artistic flair to the project.
However, given the preference of these recolorings to only honor the wishes of the writer and pencillers, I'm not surprised. The original colors, more often than not, tend to lessen the impact and skill of the original linework, instead focusing on whatever the "point" of a panel/scene is supposed to bring. (OP's pic and >>84537639 are the most obvious examples, where it takes a modicum of effort to see how intricate the pencils are in the original, whereas it's instantaneously easy in the recolors).
Overall, it's a bit tricky. It's easy to say "well, the writer and penciller WANTED it this way!" Well, then, what about the colorist? They too often get treated like lapdogs even though, in a lot of cases, their feel for color works better for the book overall, although to the detriment of the writing and the linework.
>>84537517
Have to admit, the new version does show off Bolland's line work a lot better.
>>84537803
notice how my post is of higher quality than yours
>>84537359
Which is the original and which is the recolor?
I don't even remember anymore.
>>84537993
Left side is Original
>>84538002
Damn, and here I thought Grant would be all for a multi-colored headless robot...
That recolor removed a lot of... you know... colors.
>tfw I JUST bought the original issues on ebay
dis gon b good
Modern colorists are garbage.
>>84538027
yes exactly
the problem with most recolors is that they always have to reflect this ridiculous modern trend toward "realism"
and this trend is even more obvious in a lot of the superhero movies being released these days
because you know superhero stories just never were realistic enough
of course not they were made for kids right? kids love colors but oh adults HATE colors
colors are basically like a poison to adults
the world of adults is far too serious and harsh for colors
a pity if only they had something in the world to take their mind off all that
>>84538146
A lot of coloring does often fall into the trap of just make it look like it supposed to look, which can get very boring.
I know what something is supposed to be even if it is colored a strange color.
I hate recolors because my autism demands that I keep a copy of both on my HD. For something like sandman that pushes it into the not worth it zone.
>>84538027
Because the point of the page was to highlight on the multicolored brains, in the original the focus was on the irrelevant robot-body.
>>84538146
The KILLING JOKE recoloring is awful for that, it even changes Batman's yellow/black logo to black-on-grey.
Generally speaking I think most recolorings look terrible because they're anachronistic. Artists from the '80s didn't draw exactly the same way they draw today, so you're putting "modern" colors on art that looks like it comes from a different period, because it does. It doesn't make the comic look modern, it just makes it look like the art is at war with itself.
Sometimes the recoloring doesn't look too anachronistic, but that's the best case scenario. The Simonson Thor recolorings are pretty tasteful, but they still look wrong for the art and hand-lettering.
>>84537359
Clearly Tom McGraw is the real talent here.
>>84537580
It was literally the Watchmen colorist
>>84536692
And I think DC fires anyone who complains about the dumb shit they do, so Frank and Grant kept their heads down and kept their jobs.
>>84537517
The old coloring hurt my eyes. I can't see one reason, other than nostalgia, to think the new one is inferior.
>>84537359
They INTENDED the flashbacks to look dull and drab?
>>84539661
The lighting in the recolor is garbage and everyone looks like plastic
>>84536923
That isn't even a recolor. It is just printed on different paper. The color values are probably the same, but Newsprint mellows them out.
Personally, I do like the recolor for Flex Mentallo. I think even though the book is about being able to enjoy comics on a surface level (which is debatable), it's still very situated in Flex transversing a very real setting. It was never a comic with a lot of charm, it's supposed to be grim and dark; matching Morrison's in-book character's near-suicidal mood. It only ever becomes fantastical for the very end.
>>84539687
>everyone looks like plastic
this
>>84539021
I noticed the brains easier in the original.
>>84540072
That's debatable, I only noticed the other brains I the original cause they stand out more in the recolor and I did a double take.
>>84540342
Does she have some kind of tumor on the left side of the head in the right one?
>>84540416
Digital error
Flex is one I don't mind the recoloring on.
>>84540342
This isn't a recolor situation, just someone experimenting on the left
>>84537517
Old gives it a cool color scheme, Im a sucker for magenta and blue.
New makes it look like a regular Batman comic.
The Neal Adams recolors are pretty painful.
He redrew some parts of some issues too which makes it worse.
>>84541321
the left is full of mistakes but i guess some people like that
>>84538060
How?
here's one i made myself of The Maxx recoloring. like everything else in the thread, we see bright colors toned down to a duller, more brown and grey set of colors. what irks me about this page in particular is the lighting on the figure in the middle right. in the original, he is backlit, probably from a steetlight, the headlights of a car or the neon sign of a nearby business. in the recolor, that shading is removed completely.
>>84536702
Actually if they had made everyone else more "realistic" and made Flex more colorful, then the contrast would have been better. That would be pretty cool.
>>84541355
You can fix mistakes without removing monochromatic mood lighting and replacing it with an ugly metallic glossy sheen.
>>84541355
What mistakes?
>>84541465
the belt
batman's cape and arm
the woman's skirt
>>84541542
Ah.
Well that's a very small price to pay for not looking like complete shit.
>>84541449
>monochromatic mood lighting
THERE we go! that's the phrase i have been searching for. this is the worse change made is so many recolorings.
i swear they must see a red-tinted panel and say "what is this? people aren't RED! he needs to be flesh colored and his clothes need to be 'real' colored too" neverminding the fact that the red tint was meant to convey a sense of anxiety and violence in that panel.
it's low res, but you can see the Sandman recolor is FULL of this crap.
>>84537517
wow that recolour is lifeless and boring. It somehow makes it look like I'm watching the adam west show except everyones drunk and fighting, and not in a good way. In a sad way.
>>84536317
>>84537517
Shitty digital painting ruining classic comics. Why can't we have handmade coloring any longer?
>>84537359
left is so much fucking better. Proof that sometimes you need to fuck off and let a colourist do his goddamn job.
>>84541634
I'm so glad my Incal omni has the original colors.
Here is the problem with almost all of these.
It is going back to work once it is out to touch it up and not just letting it be the thing it is.
>>84541753
It is strange that the same level of fall on your face doesn't happen when books go from Black and White to in Color.
I guess adding color wholesale is such a massive shift that it becomes a very different rather than a changed original thing.
>>84541634
at least the recent reprint had the original colors
>>84541753
Digital recoloring is necessary for digital comics. Keeping it flat and and as true as possible to the original colors works out reasonably well.
>>84536923
Eclipse Miracleman? Their first try was piss but the coloring for their trades(?) was better.
>>84541949
I am not sure about that, I have gotten some pretty old comics on digital and they have read fine.
>>84541981
Wasn't the version before Eclipse the B&W stuff like V for Vendetta from Warrior?
>>84537860
>readers prefer a larger, more dynamic palette of colors
You'd be surprised but not really. If we're talking superhero comics especially, people really expect art to reflect life in as much detail as possible.
>"well, the writer and penciller WANTED it this way!" Well, then, what about the colorist?
There's also the case of artist and/or writer just plain having shit taste in coloring. Or at least a weird vision of their own art which is something you might not expect from them. Case in point: Bolland, whose work ever since he started coloring himself looks like plastic models in a plastic world.
>>84536923
I prefer the restored versions but I wish they could preserve the color "dots" present in the original prints somehow.
I dunno, I just don't think either is ideal.
>>84542215
Oh, and to expand on that, the newsprint may look more like what was originally PUBLISHED, but the restoration looks like what was originally DRAWN. So there's no clear answer in terms of what's more "accurate".
>>84541994
They're unwilling to sell them looking like that. Here's a good example of a decent recoloring, a bad recoloring, and an original.
>>84542215
The new one doesn't look bad it just looks like they got the saturation levels wrong.
>>84542275
I guess but the middle one looks almost too bright
>>84542275
Middle is too bright but the right idea. That needs to be their approach on these.
It feels like they are polishing them too much
>>84537359
That one is actually a tough one for me.
the more garish coloration is a better fit for the story, but I personally like the Colossus-look on the specific character on the right. The striping is actually too distracting from what I assume was an intended metallic banding.
>>84536923
that is not a recolor, that's a digital restoration. Someone gets paid to digitalise the scans / original issues and making them look as good as possible.
Generally they look ok, there's a lot of work dedicated to preserving each pixel of linework. But Marvel has botched a lot of their restored comics by taking them and trying to make them look as seamless and colour filled as possible, eating the actual colour away and making it look like it was done on paint. 80s X-Men in particular suffered from it. Shittiest restoration I've seen was the Magik mini.
I prefer the pirate light restorations where they just colour correct the paper and remove printing / scanning defects.
OP refers to something different, which is grabbing the originals and doing an entirely different colour scheme. Some early 2000s Marvel restorations did that, but beyond that, it's rare.
>>84542275
A lot of the trouble with recolors is the colorists are apparently trash.
>>84541160
He went a bit overboard with the background but otherwise it works
>>84542586
Don't have facts to back this up, but maybe it's because the good colourists are doing new books rather than updating old ones
>>84542024
Yesh, the Warrior stuff was b&w. Eclipse had two coloring takes. One for the series and for the collection.
http://mistahphil.tumblr.com/post/69617657544/miracleman-color-comparisons-from-left
>>84537618
It's a case of hitting the uncanny valley with coloring.
Even with as few as 10 colors we know there's an explosion of light and a smoldering fire surrounding thor - there's no need for much else, our imagination will do the rest and mentally note to us "this is epic"
With the recolor, the extra detail brings out more of our attention to the pic itself and doesn't' activate the same creativity. I find it hard to describe, but I pay more attention to what the image depicts rather than imagining the situation in my head.
You gotta keep things symbolic sometimes. Let the reader create the situation in his head. In this respect, I think moebius was a master - His works are extremely intricate when he wants to, yet he also manages to create amazing atmosphere just by slapping plain colours on the entire surface.
>>84537860
This anon is onto something too.
>>84541634
>recoloring moebius
triggered
It takes a droplet of taste to tell that the originals are almost always vastly superior; rich and emotional use of color took the pages beyond a mere graphic depiction of something happening and gave it symbolic weight, varying with each reader. The new ones attempt to be more "realistic" and end up completely killing the emotional intensity and look dull and/or garish. Perfect examples of doing because you can, not because you should. Fucking disgusting how awful most of these look.
>>84542881
I don't even get how Moebius makes his pictures just feel right.
>>84541717
So the writer for Flex is a worthless hack?
>>84543042
No, but you are.
>>84540342
Miller is truly horrible
>>84543258
>>>/tumblr/
>>84543272
People have known Miller was shit since before tumblr existed. Sorry kid.
>>84541634
This is not digital painting? This is shitty modern pipeline-based color work.
See, in modern comics colorist hires a rookie called 'separator', who fills in colors deciding of what should be the same color. Then, colorist just swaps the colors across the page, and of course he has to add some shitty rendering to prove he's an artist. That's it.
Like, really, those two side by side are perfect examples - it's a futuristic city, so things SHOULD be brown and grey, right? So he draws them grey and brown, without thinking about composition of the scene for ten seconds.
This colorist looks like a complete rookie, desu, who just learned to use gradient tool, but frankly, not many colorists are better.
The thing is colorists are paid shit, and often aren't even credited (sometimes companies hire graphic studios and credit the studio) so they don't give a fuck.
You wanna see digital painting in comics, look up Stiepan Sejic - pic related, it looks closer to, well. Painting (and it's faster than traditional painted comics, Alex Ross style).
>>84542275
>Stan Lee and Steve Ditko credit box removed
triggered
>>84543371
meme
>>84542360
Yeah they do need to tone things down a bit with these, other than that that's the way recolors should be done. Fantagraphics is doing it right with their Carl Barks stuff.
>>84542275
Middle one is NOT a fucking recoloring. It's what the original looked like. It looks bad because colorists did their job ASSUMING colors are gonna look washed-out on cheap newsprint.
>>84536923
>>84542389
Same here. Those are probably just original coloring proofs, scanned.
And this is in fact the reason why they do recolorings, because original colors don't look good on good paper (except, you know, putting it through photoshop and lessening saturation to 75% would probably be easier, but who gives a fuck, amirite?).
>>84537517
How does this look?
>>84543445
Also their Young Romance is the best restoration I've seen. Everyone should strive to preserve the artwork and keep the original feeling of the comic.
>>84541321
>those shitty scribbles on "Moon of the Wolf" lettering
kill me.
>>84543381
Nigger, these are 3D sculpts with some custom faces and digital scribbles over them
>>84542275
>The generic digital painting
>glossy illumination
>everybody looks like they're made out of plastic/rubber
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>84543770
Did you mean to post that old one where someone meshed together both?
Speaking of which, here's a thing where I do the same, but using Darken layer - which basically more or less keeps old wild hues, but keeps better new rendering.
>>84537517
Bolland did an afterword in the anniversary addition where he said that the recoloring was his request. He stopped just short of saying he hated the original coloration and the only thing he said in its favor was that it looked good for being done on short notice.
Bolland didn't just recolor though, he also said he made adjustments to some pieces, and I think they're most apparent with Joker's teeth in some panels. Comparing the old to the new, it's really REALLY apparent Bolland has a bit of an ego with his linework. Sure, the recoloring shows off more of Bolland's pretty great lines, but it comes at the detriment of basically everything else. Case in point: that picture. The fight's supposed to take place inside a funhouse. In the originals the colors are nightmarish and gaudy because it fits the hell that Joker's made for Gordon (and to a lesser extent Batman). In the update it just looks like Joker and Batman are duking it out in a lifeless construction yard. Nothing "pops".
>>84536317
It's unacceptable. I don't know why it's so prevalent in comics. No one else would buy into this garbage idea that we need to fix the past to look normal or modern.
>>84543982
Are you retarded? Incorporating 3D sculpts into your art is a common practice in digital painting, half of efficient concept artists do it. Like, this is not a graphic novel, this is a fucking monthly book, that means the dude had to did easily like
sixty-ninety paintings a month, of course he's gonna do things efficiently.
(Tbh I probably didn't use the best example, I got this one saved because of inventive 'panel layout' rather quality of actual art).
I mean, you can imply Sejic can't paint, but that's. Kind of dumb. Pic related, cover he made for Arkham Knight (geez, that entire comic makes me so sad, AK had such a good creative team and such terrible sales).
>>84544305
someone else did that first?I feel a fool for trying.
>>84544424
Do you even know pan and scan?
>>84544625
You're not a fool. It seems like an obvious, instictual thing to do - new one has really detailed shading which better portrays the atmosphere, but color choice in old one fits the situation better. Wanting to combine them feels obvious, for people with what I'd call visual/aesthetic intelligence.
If anything, that means you have good intuition for colors. If you're not an artist, maybe you it'd be a good idea to give art a try, you could be good at it. If you are, well, nice catch.
>>84540342
Do you have the rest of this set? The fan-coloring is so much better
>>84544362
>Bolland "requested" a recoloring
>Quitely and Morrison both "requested" a recoloring
I can see a patern
>>84544305
Looks like it's trying to do a 3d thing.
>>84542989
Lots and lots of drugs were involved.
>>84544708
th-thanks, anon. I'm terrible at drawing, but I like to think I have an eye for colors.
>>84541392
They color for realism and on-model accuracy. Older colorists colored for aesthetics, emotion, mood and storytelling.
>>84541321
>-Janet Bonner
>taking off her clothes
damn right
How do you go from this...
>>84546221
...to this
>>84545152
haha lsd
How about doing the opposite? taking modern comics and recoloring them with vintage techniques?
>>84545152
Moebius has said in interviews that he rarely ever did drugs and found them a distraction from his work.
>>84542275
>digital version is just adding a bunch of gradients and shading everywhere
>>84543495
>Middle one is NOT a fucking recoloring. It's what the original looked like. It looks bad because colorists did their job ASSUMING colors are gonna look washed-out on cheap newsprint.
That means that they did their job in a way to get around the limitation of the medium. Since that limitation is not there in a digital version, the contrast should be reduced.
>>84546221
>>84546239
Could be worse.
>>84549484
original.
they just shopped the photo of a sunset in there, it's hilarious.
>>84549506
kek
>>84546221
>>84546239
Did you get those backwards?
>>84549506
Good 90s X-men had goat Costumes save for all the pouches. 90s wolverine costume will never be in theaters and that's a sad fact
jews 4 jesus
This thread made me convinced that colorists are the true artists and draftsmen are just pencilmonkeys who sheepishly illustrate whatever the writer told them to.
The colorist is concerned with conveying the overall mood and atmosphere of the scene, while the penciller is only there to fulfill the almost mechanical job of drawing human figures, dressing them up and putting them in poses that the writer had requested.
>>84544588
>>84543381
Those look like fucking shit a washed up hack who binge watched ctrl paint would come up with.
Digital art is, most of the time, garbage. Get that shit out of here.
>>84537376
>>84538027
>>84539677
>>84541717
>throwing every color in the spectrum for no reason makes it better!
You guys don't know shit.
>>84541717
>let a colourist do his goddamn job
Most colorists are hacks. Closer to technicians than artists. A good colorist should be in contact with the creative team talking about what they linework is trying to convey in terms of storytelling so they can enhance it
Flex Mentello was a case of assembly line comics
>>84536317
Neither one is really 'good' - I've skimmed the digital and I've read the trade (from my library so probably an older edition), and I can't remember that it made much difference.
From these two images, some things are better in the one on the left (the African-American woman and kid, for example) but Flex himself looks better in the right image - except some other parts of it look a bit washed out or too light (for example, Mr. Pornstache at the bottom left).
This is all subjective. Pick the one you like. You can probably find the book for a lot less than $50 from someplace like Powell's and have a safer experience than eBay.
![IMG_2710[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/vCkgo94.jpg "IMG_2710[1].jpg")
You guys seen the Batman Noir: Killing Joke? Looks pretty sweet.
![IMG_2712[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/1O9I55l.jpg "IMG_2712[1].jpg")
>>84557883
![IMG_2713[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/i3sfuCx.jpg "IMG_2713[1].jpg")
>>84557887
![IMG_2717[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/7nKNl8P.jpg "IMG_2717[1].jpg")
>>84557895
>>84544362
Why can't they have the fun house scenes in the original colors and the other stuff in the newer colors
>>84558022
Why can't they just have a TPB of the original coloring?
I just wish they would make original colorings available online so we could compare them.
Anybody got a Link to the original killing joke colors
I might be just seeing things but apparently recolors are all about adding making every object its neutral, 'natural' color, desaturation or adding a cold and metallic lighting tone, giving every surface gradients and generating a fuckup for every potential improvement.
>>84557883
>>84557887
>>84557895
>>84557912
Calling this stuff Noir seems like a really big insult or a way to try and pull one over on rubes.
>>84536317
recolor is infinitely better.
>>84557883
I like it a lot actually. I've always hated the coloring but really liked the actual linework. Alsoit looks like one of my Japanese mangas
>>84558448
It is odd that the Japs don't use color inside most of the time
>>84558325
I think they've started calling B&W reprints "Unwrapped" probably because of that
>>84560281
It's cheaper. Also there's a beauty in black and white line art. I just have a hard on for black ink on white paper. You'll find me in pretty much every thread railing on about how colored editions of originally black and white comics are the devil.
I'm looking at you Bone threads.
>>84544424
tell that to Ted Turner, he colorized black and white movies
>>84548574
I mean, this isn't a comic being redone by Scott Koblish has gone for that retro look in some Deadpool issues, i think Jordie Bellaire was the colorist?
>>84537517
Bolland recolored this himself so people will argue that makes it better.
I fucking HATE the recolor.
>>84544424
>No one else would buy into this garbage idea that we need to fix the past to look normal or modern.
>>84561416
And everyone hates him for it.
