why do cartoons only have 4 fingers?
Easier to animate.
- easy to draw
- trend (though more 5-finger cartoons have come out as of late)
- birds are offensive
- that hand has 3 fingers
>>84525337
5 fingers generally ends up looking weird.
>>84525337
Realistic well-proportioned hands with 5 fingers look weird on cartoon absurdly-proportioned bodies.
Same goes with realistic heads and faces, limbs and feet.
>>84525337
Because you touch yourself at night with 5
>>84525337
The less fingers, the easier to draw.
Therefore I should draw the less fingers possible.
So I draw ZERO fingers.
It works fine.
Now I try with ONE.
Looks like a tentacle, still fine.
Now I try with TWO
If I add a thumb to the tentacle it still looks fine.
Now I try with THREE
Shit. Shitshitshitshit can't unsee! Disgusting alien hands!
Now I try with FOUR.
Mmm. Almost like a real hand.
I can point, close fist without looking weird, rise the "pinky" finger.
Then with FIVE you got a real hand.
But it has a higher chance to turn out messy.
So cartoons vary between those options according to their needs.
The Simpsons particularly NEED the 4th option and all their fingers.
>>84525337
Literally easier to draw and look natural.
>>84525411
4 fingers.. the thumb is a finger you fool
Which finger is the one cut off? Is it consistent?
It was weird in Gravity falls. All the kids had 4 fingers and all the adults and teenagers had 5 fingers. Do kids in that universe just grow a 5th finger when they hit puberty?
The only exceptions were Grenda and that Black girl that hung around Pacifca
Fun fact: whenever God shows up on Simpsons, he is always drawn with four fingers and a thumb. Every time.
It started because it's faster to animate 4 fingers instead of 5. That holds true today as much as it did in the 40s, so it's just kinda became a trend.
The weird thing is when things that AREN'T animated, such as cartoon styled comics, are drawn with 4 fingers. If it's a tie in to a cartoon, I can understand. But if it's something that's new, then the lack of a 5th finger actually really bothers me. They're typically only going with 4 fingers because of the trend from animation, not so much from a conscious design choice.
>>84525337
To avoid any "flip the bird" moments. If there's no middle finger, there's no indecency.
>>84525337
Because Mickey Mouse was born with 4 fingers and was the first successful toon so when toons are born some parents have the doctor cut off a finger so they can be more like Mickey and have a chance to be successful.
I always liked in Kingdom Hearts how the classic Disney characters had their requisite four fingers while everyone else had five. It's a nice little detail.
>>84525913
Literally who on this board doesn't already know that, tripfaggot?
When you start drawing human characters with four fingers because "it's easier to draw/faster to animate," it might be time to ask yourself what the fuck you're doing with your life.
>>84527838
and then you answer, "oh yeah, I'm animating." And just keep doing it forever because there's no turning back now, considering the 1,000s of drawings you've made so far.
>>84528016
I mean, obviously various compromises are done in animation to keep it feasible, but when you start removing fingers you've lost the plot.
>>84525647
Fingers have 3 joints
Thumbs have 2 joints
Thus fingers are not the same as thumbs
You sir, are the fool
>>84528119
better than losing your job
>>84528157
I'm not talking about the animators who are told what to do. I'm talking about the people making the decisions.
>>84528119
Is the plot finger based? Cause if so, you might wanna just give it up all together. Everything, I mean. Obviously.
>>84528195
"Losing the plot" is an expression, not a literal statement.
>>84528180
"This'll make it easier for the animators to animate"
"Alright do it"
>>84528276
What are you trying to say?
>>84528305
That you're stupid.
>>84528305
I'm saying that the people in charge of the companies made the decision to draw characters with three fingers because it would save on time and cost.
>>84528328
How am I stupid?
>>84528336
We already know that. That's the entire premise of what we're talking about.
>>84528220
Yeah well maybe cartoons aren't literal. Maybe they are, at their core, metaphorical. Maybe they don't depict life the way it is, but instead depict it through the prism of fiction and fantasy. And maybe it's possible to lose a finger without losing anything essential to the animation. Or maybe I just made a shitty joke that didn't land. Up to the audience to decide for themselves, I guess.
>>84528358
I thought you were against removing fingers. But now you're agreeing with me?
What the fuck ARE we talking about?
>>84526047
>weird thing is when things that AREN'T animated
Yeah, Allison used to draw three fingers and a thumb. I remember the subtle way he fixed that, left-side pic related shows "The Child" who repeated "Things are going to change"; right-side is following arc chapter.
>>84525778
It's the index finger. The middle finger is usually the longest finger on the hand, and cartoon fingers are either all the same size or have the longest finger closest to the hand.
>>84528371
Maybe we were talking about having three or four fingers instead of five because it's easier to animate.
>>84528425
What makes you think I'm agreeing with you?
>>84528119
it's rational in that it's a decision made so that more can be animated. Literally it was animators who had been animating for a long time who came up with that way of "cutting corners" in the first place.
>>84528546
The people involved should be asking themselves if they're there to make animation or to cut corners until there's nothing left to cut. "Animating five fingers is harder than animating four, so let's just animate four" is a bad work ethic that leads to mediocrity.
>>84528470
Well it doesn't sound like there's much to talk about then? We've got the what and the why, the how is obvious, and the who and when don't really matter. What's left to say outside of "I like it" or "I think it's bullshit, go suck an egg"? It's already been addressed but besides being easier to animate, some people do it for aesthetics (possibly because they're so used to seeing it as a time saving technique?).
>>84528358
That's a hard question to answer.
Do you want to know how you, specifically, manage to be stupid? I don't think we've got enough information here to get into that. Defining stupidity in and of itself is a bit of an issue, and even if you decide on some metric to measure it by and all that, you'd still have to find the root cause of it. I don't really have the biology or neuroscience background to help you out here; For all I know it could already been narrowed down to a specific gene. or it could be just as much of a mystery as any other aspect of consciousness.
Are you asking how you are at being stupid? You're fantastic, grade A, keep it up.
>>84528616
Where do you live where money grows on trees? Just curious, sounds like a pretty great place to live.
>>84528656
Stay mad.
>>84528668
American shows have huge budgets and long development times and almost all the work is outsourced to cheap Asian countries.
>>84528155
Fingers do not always have to have the same number of joints. Aliens having fingers could be different.
>>84528616
Or it gives them more time to spend on animating more important parts of the show. you know, like, how time is limited? unless you live somewhere where time grows on trees
>>84528692
> almost all the work is outsourced to cheap Asian countries.
Because animation is expensive and slave labor is a good way to make sure you don't go bankrupt.
>American shows have huge budgets
You mean shit like family guy where most of the money is for the voice actors?
>>84528692
My mind often wanders to what day-to-day life must be like for the animators in those countries and I get really depressed every time.
>>84528730
forgot to add something about you being salty cause you said stay mad, make up your own jab I guess
>>84528755
Wait I got it...
go suck an egg
>>84528119
>>84528616
>make complicated character designs for my cartoon
>network executive tells me simplify the character designs so the animation is cheaper
>reply with "Heh, excuse me, but i'm here to make ANIMATION, not cut corners."
>get fired
i sure showed him
>>84528809
And so we'd live in a world free of the disappointment that was Steven Universe.
>>84528730
As I said, the budgets are huge and the development times are long.
And most of these shows already cut so many corners that I must ask what the "important parts" are that they're animating.
>>84528738
The fact is that they have, say, $500 thousand or $1 million for every episode that they're willing to spend. If they choose to spend a lot or most of that money on the voice actors then that's the decision they've made with their budget. They could have made other decisions.
And if the networks behind these shows are so concerned about bankruptcy then why are they spending such extravagant amounts of money on voice actors and giving as much as 9 months of time for 10 minute episodes?
>>84528809
Are you trying to say the executives have no responsibility?
>>84525893
Then there was the guy with six fingers
Yeah GF was all over the place with that wasn't it
>>84528862
>Are you trying to say the executives have no responsibility?
They have the responsibility to make money.
>And if the networks behind these shows are so concerned about bankruptcy then why are they spending such extravagant amounts of money on voice actors
Because there would be a huge backlash if they left.
>>84528862
I know you said it, that doesn't make it true. VB is really the only show with huge development times; time & money are essentially always going to be limiting factors. Even with the so called long development times, most of the animation is outsourced to South Korea and the like, which wouldn't be the case if time and money weren't tight.
>>84528937
People in the anime industry have responsibilities to make money too.
>Because there would be a huge backlash if they left.
Then maybe you shouldn't allow yourself to be held hostage by voice actors.
>>84528958
When I look up the episode development times for shows it's almost always 9 months. Which is not "tight" at all. And strangely they have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on a few voice actors, despite money being "tight" too.
>>84529028
What does anime have to do with this?
>Then maybe you shouldn't allow yourself to be held hostage by voice actors.
Do you have any suggestions for somehow stopping the voice actors for asking for higher pay?
>>84529066
>What does anime have to do with this?
They have to make money too yet I don't see them shitting up everything under the guise of "we have to make money."
>Do you have any suggestions for somehow stopping the voice actors for asking for higher pay?
Don't run shows forever, keep the salaries reasonable and make it clear that the actors will not be able to negotiate unreasonable ones if they want to remain employed.
>>84529181
>yet I don't see them shitting up everything under the guise of "we have to make money."
Oh I get it, you're a weeb who thinks anime is absolutely perfect in every way. Nevermind then, no point in arguing with you.
>>84529028
You realize they can't spend all 9 months on animating, they have to edit it afterwards and all sorts of stuff. Also, how long do you think it takes to animate something? And again, they wouldn't outsource this shit to Korea and other Asian countries if they were not pressed for time and money. You still haven't addressed that at all (why reply if you don't have an actual reply? w/e I guess)
>>84525337
A severe weak spot of Herny's art. 4 fingers and toes are a massive turnoff.
>>84529260
That's a bit of a stretch from what he said. I guess you're both retards?
The extra detail of a 5th finger usually looks awkward on otherwise simplistic characters.
Obviously, higher-detailed, more realistic characters often have all 5 fingers.
>>84529291
Pretty much what he's implying by saying that anime doesn't cut corners.
>>84529181
Besides the fact that anime has the whole chibi style where the entire person is simplified to make it easier to animate instead of just a finger, you don't really have a leg to stand on.
Anime and western media have stylistic differences. Western shows that attempt realism usually have normal hands (Archer, moonbeam city, venture bros, metalocalypse, ect.), anime shows that don't attempt realism have way worse issues than not enough fingers, so I can't really say I see your point here.
>>84525541
lol'd for some reason
>>84529260
No, what's actually going on here is that you're a reverse weeaboo.
>>84529276
To put this into perspective, anime shows spend 6-12 months in production and then a 12 episode show runs for 3 months. So that's 9-15 months total from the start of production to the last episode. The episodes are also 20 minutes long.
>>84529330
Of course it cuts corners. Animation that doesn't cut corners would have the detail of the most detailed anime ever made (probably some 80s to early 90s movie or OVA) and it would run at 24 frames per second all the time (unless it was necessary to slow it down) and it would have two tone shading all over the place. But that's practically impossible to do. American and Japanese animation both make compromises.
>>84529347
The chibi style is not used in order to simplify animation. It's used for comedic effect or to visually convey something.
>anime shows that don't attempt realism have way worse issues than not enough fingers
Like what?
>>84529330
he didn't really imply that either though, he was just making the point that japan doesn't do the 4 finger thing despite being total cheap asses. he's wrong, so I don't know why you have to make up your own hang ups and stuff.
not that he isn't a weeb with tunnel vision, cause he totally gives off that vibe, but it's just not really relevant when this thread is full of him being a retard in all sorts of other ways.
>>84529388
thanks for the info, keep us updated (is there an emoji for sarcastically killing yourself? if I didn't have soooooo much to live for I'd totally kill myself to send you some sass right now)
>>84525541
I only need 1.
>>84529418
Why is it okay when japan cuts corners but it's not okay when the west cuts corners?
>>84529456
>he was just making the point that japan doesn't do the 4 finger thing despite being total cheap asses
The difference between America and Japan in this regard is that Japan saves money on the back end, not the front end. The production staff may be largely underpaid and work long hours, but you don't see that on the screen.
>not that he isn't a weeb with tunnel vision
How am I a weeb with tunnel vision?
>this thread is full of him being a retard in all sorts of other ways
How have I been a retard?
>>84529418
you never heard of CLAMP?
>>84529507
There are different ways of cutting corners and not all of them are made equal. There are also differences in mentality between America and Japan. Like, I've seen several times people argue that animation for children doesn't have to look or sound good because it's for kids and they won't be able to tell, but in anime they make an effort.
>>84529520
They're manga artists. What about them?
>>84529509
Have you ever watched an anime? Half the animation style is budget saving for fucks sake. Even Unlimited Budget Works has got tons of animation-saving tricks in it. Eva had at least 2 minutes of a completely still shot with no dialogue in not one, but TWO episodes!
As for how you've been a retard, you would reply to a post but ignore any points you didn't have a "rebuttal" for without even acknowledging them. Among other things...
Btw I've got a totally unrelated problem I'd like some help with: if someone doesn't know they're a retard, how can you explain it to them? They aren't able to understand, that's why they're there in the first place.
>>84529704
>Have you ever watched an anime?
Have you ever considered reading what I just wrote:
>Of course it cuts corners. Animation that doesn't cut corners would have the detail of the most detailed anime ever made (probably some 80s to early 90s movie or OVA) and it would run at 24 frames per second all the time (unless it was necessary to slow it down) and it would have two tone shading all over the place. But that's practically impossible to do. American and Japanese animation both make compromises.
>There are different ways of cutting corners and not all of them are made equal. There are also differences in mentality between America and Japan. Like, I've seen several times people argue that animation for children doesn't have to look or sound good because it's for kids and they won't be able to tell, but in anime they make an effort.
No shit UBW has "animation saving tricks" in it. Are you expecting them to have that visual quality at 24 FPS for 24 episodes? That's impossible for anyone.
>As for how you've been a retard, you would reply to a post but ignore any points you didn't have a "rebuttal" for without even acknowledging them.
Examples?
>>84529418
Chibi is absolutely used to simplify animation. They're mainly used in comedy but they definitely came about as a way to quickly animate/draw, usually in the omake parts of a manga. And why is it ok for japan to use lazy art stylistically but its not acceptable for western artists to use 4 finger characters for aesthetic reasons? That you don't have the same rub against them says a lot about your... objectivity? not the word I'm looking for but you should be able to get what I mean.
>>84529747
i like how you completely ignored the part of his post where he pointed out shit like 2 minutes of a completely still shot with no dialogue
but i guess a simplified design having one less finger is a much more heinous crime than not bothering to even animate parts of episodes
>>84525337
Some are saying it's cost-cutting, but I think it's sometimes deliberate stylistic decision. Ren and Stimpy themselves had only 4 but adult characters in the shows typically had 5 (with some errors). The Maxx characters had five, except for the cartoonish Izzes who had four, although ocassionally drawn with five toes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIsd356wfdQ
>>84529747
>That's impossible for anyone.
No it's not, haven't you heard? American artists have unlimited budgets and time.
>>84529785
He also ignored the earlier arguments that if America didn't have to worry about time and money they wouldn't outsource to SK and Japan and whatnot.
And he ignored when I've called him out for ignoring arguments he doesn't have a rebuttal for.
Maybe he's a honest to god, chromosome missing, pole licking retard or maybe he just convincingly pretends to be one, but at a certain point there isn't really a difference.
>>84529770
As I said, they are not used for simplifying animation. They are used to express something and it's a near-certainty that the animators are just following what was in the manga. There are countless ways of saving on animation and they don't need chibi characters to do it.
>And why is it ok for japan to use lazy art stylistically but its not acceptable for western artists to use 4 finger characters for aesthetic reasons?
I never said anything about using four fingers as an aesthetic decision.
>>84529785
>i like how you completely ignored the part of his post where he pointed out shit like 2 minutes of a completely still shot with no dialogue
So I'm supposed to address every single instance of animation saving in every single anime production now? They all have the same circumstances. And I haven't even seen Evangelion.
>not bothering to even animate parts of episodes
It has nothing to do with not bothering.
>>84529841
>He also ignored the earlier arguments that if America didn't have to worry about time and money they wouldn't outsource to SK and Japan and whatnot.
I didn't ignore that. I already pointed out that American productions have extravagant budgets and development times.
>And he ignored when I've called him out for ignoring arguments he doesn't have a rebuttal for.
What arguments?
>>84529704
>watch anime
>tons of scenes that are just a series of still shots but with characters' mouths moving
>moments where the characters barely even move
>GLORIOUS JAPANESE ANIMATION MUCH HIGHER QUALITY THAN WESTERN ANIMATION
Will people ever accept that 99% of the animation in television series is fucking awful? Jap and Western animation deal with low budgets in different ways, but at the end of the day it's still shit. If you want high-quality animation watch a movie or a short.
>>84529878
>tons of scenes that are just a series of still shots but with characters' mouths moving
>moments where the characters barely even move
People keep yammering on about mouth flaps and either pretend or seriously believe that nothing else exists. In reality mouth flaps are one technique among many and people exaggerate the limitedness of the animation to an extreme degree.
The visual quality of an animation is also not determined solely by the amount of animation.
>If you want high-quality animation watch a movie or a short.
There's plenty of high quality animation in TV anime.
>>84529949
Kind of hard for animation to be considered quality if it's not even there.
>>84529983
But it is there, and I wasn't talking about just the animation. If having a lot of movement was all it took then you could just stick figures and backgrounds drawn with a pencil.
>>84530011
So you're telling me that scenes with no animation at all have good animation?
>>84530423
Where did I say that?
>>84530434
When you defended scenes without any animation at all.
>>84530445
Why should every shot have animation in it? Why does something look bad just because it has no animation? Do paintings look bad too?
>>84529949
>The visual quality of an animation is also not determined solely by the amount of animation.
you're right, it's determined by fluidity and movement, which anime constantly cuts corners on.>>84525404
>>84530460
>Do paintings look bad too?
Paintings are not animation. If you told me that a slideshow of renaissance paintings had good animation I would call you a retard, because it's not animation, it's just a slideshow.
>Why should every shot have animation in it?
Yeah, why should ANIMATION be ANIMATED?
>>84527608
>what is raising the second-to-last finger, for 500 alex
>>84529858
>ignored the earlier arguments that if America didn't have to worry about time and money they wouldn't outsource to SK and Japan and whatnot.
>I didn't ignore that. I already pointed out that American productions have extravagant budgets and development times.
then why do they outsource it all to SK, Japan, and asian countries?? fuck me it's like talking to a wall with a waifu
>why do people think I'm a retard
it's a mystery
>>84530463
It's not determined by those.
Anime chooses quality over quantity, and could have far more animation than it does now if it reduced the quality. And as I said before people vastly exaggerate the lack of animation in anime. I assume it comes from Dragon Ball Z or Naruto or something.
>>84530504
>Paintings are not animation. If you told me that a slideshow of renaissance paintings had good animation I would call you a retard, because it's not animation, it's just a slideshow.
There is more to animation than just animation.
>Yeah, why should ANIMATION be ANIMATED?
Where did I say it shouldn't be?
>>84530521
>then why do they outsource it all to SK, Japan, and asian countries??
The fact is, again, that they have extravagant budgets and schedules. The fact that they outsource their animation doesn't change that.
>it's a mystery
If you can't answer the question then you concede that you were lying or mistaken.
>>84530601
>There is more to animation than just animation.
Weebs will say anything to justify anime's shortcomings. Absurd statements such as "there's more to animation than animation" are an attempt to convince themselves that all anime is high-quality and well animated. It's sort of like someone saying "there's more to writing than writing" or "there's more to cinematography than cinematography".
>It's not determined by those.
For example, here is the weeb admitting they don't know anything about the medium they're attempting to discuss.
>>84530601
it was sarcasm, because you keep repeating yourself without actually answering the question. Which is a pretty classic sign of autism (like the real autism not the 4chan insult).
>>84530696
Anime is not just animation. It's also character design, cinematography and backgrounds. If you think pure animation i.e. pure movement is all that matters then all you need is stick figures against crudely drawn backgrounds.
And as I've said several times now, people vastly exaggerate the lack of animation in anime and make it seem like it's just a parade of still images and mouth flaps when that's not what's actually happening. There is way more animation than you think or claim, and its quality is much higher than in American shows. People also try to make it seem like American shows are basically Disney feature films, which isn't true either.
And I'm not a weeb and you can't prove otherwise.
>>84530705
What question am I not answering?
>>84530762
>And I'm not a weeb and you can't prove otherwise
this isn't court dude, we all know you're a weeb, I don't know why you're denying it so much when everything else you type just confirms it.
>>84530808
If you "know" I'm a weeb then you should be able to prove it. Well?
>>84530762
>Anime is not just animation. It's also character design, cinematography and backgrounds
Im not talking about the whole thing, you fucking retard. I have always been talking about the quality of the animation itself. That is what this ENTIRE FUCKING ARGUMENT has been about. Nobody has said shit about character design or backgrounds or any of that shit, we have been discussing ANIMATION for the entire thread. You can't just fucking bring up "y-yeah but what about these other things that aren't animation" because that is not what we're talking about.
>>84530831
>Im not talking about the whole thing, you fucking retard.
Well I am.
And character design and cinematography are tied to animation anyway, once you get past the idea that animation = movement for movement's sake and nothing else.
>>84530696
He's right though
If a western cartoon had a dramatic still shot, as films often do, you'd lap it up.
>animation can't have still shots ever
>EVER
>WE HAVE TO SHOW THE WORLD WE KNOW HOW TO ANIMATE
Old disney pls go and take your dancing mice with you
>>84530859
>Well I am.
That's because you changed the subject once you realized you were losing the argument.
>And character design and cinematography are tied to animation anyway
No they aren't. the definition of animation is movement, and no amount of putting your hands over your ears and yelling will ever change that.
>>84530859
We stop being retarded autists and accept that stills and caption cards are acceptable. What are we left with?
>>84530915
You're arguing with a legitimate retard right now, so jokes on you. ALSO I'M A WEEB AND NO ONE CAN PROVE OTHERWISE!!!
also I'm for sure this >>84530859 poster and NO ONE CAN PROVE OTHERWISE!!!
>>84530925
This is about fingers, it's always been about fingers. Don't forget the fingers
>>84530915
>That's because you changed the subject once you realized you were losing the argument.
I didn't change anything and I wasn't losing anything. What exactly is there to lose here?
>No they aren't.
Look at this for example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq5CV71SD1s
The position of the "camera" determines the animation. In the first shot the camera is on the ground and looking up, but then one shot later it's tracking the character from the side which is what you typically see in cartoons. Same action but with very different animation. Animating the first shot is much more difficult than animating the last one.
The shot at 1:06 also would have been very different to animate had it been shot from the side.
>>84530925
What are you talking about?
>>84530939
How am I a legitimate retard? How am I a weeb?
>>84530961
By first shot I meant 0:40.
>>84530961
>what are you talking about
>"Kind of hard for animation to be considered quality if it's not even there"
>"bakemono was SHIIIIIIT SLIDESHOW SLIDESHOW"
You know, slideshows are okay. But the animation between them still sucks.
>>84531077
I've already said many times now that people vastly exaggerate the lack of animation in anime.
>>84525404
>>84525411
>>84525436
>>84525440
honestly, i heard these arguments as a kid too, and i figured "makes sense" but after learning how to draw myself, i can't help but draw 5 fingers. When i try to imitate an artstyle that uses 4 i always butcher it because it just seems that unnatural to me.
>>84528155
The thumb has 3 joints, though.
