Face it, he's Mickey Mouse. A product of a by-gone era. Somehow Marvel made Captain America relevant to the times though, yet everyone can't seem to get Supes right. What is the correct formula for him?
I would personally place more emphasis on the refugee aspect on his "alien refugee" story, effectively making it Alien Nation with Kryptonians escaping a war on their planet. (Yes, it has to be a war, the mythos must be altered. Purists will be butthurt but refugee issues are so relevant to today's society that even kids would understand and relate to it more than "sole survivor baby from a destroyed planet" schtick, which is biblical and all but nobody in the modern day gives a shit about the bible anymore).
With a spaceship full of Kryptonians, you immediately have a Superman family for sequels. They become superheroes/ meta humans on earth. Naturally, some of the refugees have not-so-good intentions for the humans as an inferior species and wish to subjugate them etc.. Cue: power level porn/ Dragonball-style battles between the Kryptonians. Humans fight back, create their own metahumans etc to fight back. Superman steps up to try and police his villainous brethren in a bid to restore the trust of his adopted species. The costume can be his way of sucking up to America too, as would his wholesome, all-American persona, an artifice that all refugees go through.
In essence, Superman's story would parallel the plight of refugees and mirror the mistrust a society has for them. Snyder touched on this very lightly when it could have been the main theme.
Fuck no. Holy fucking shit no.
The alien aspect to Superman is essentially why people don't like him. No matter how you spin it, it becomes difficult to care about a godlike alien who picks and chooses what good deeds he can do.
The only "change" his story needs is to go back to the Golden Age roots. Since you're specifically talking about live-action, then we can even go back to "able to leap tall buildings" instead of flying:
* Make him massively less powerful. But, to be specific, limit the effectiveness of superhearing and x-ray vision. Don't allow him to be a "I can see radio waves!" kind of guy.
* Super jumping and limited gliding with the cape. No flying.
If Kryptonian elements are brought in (and I don't think they should be), then they should be simple as fuck or alien as fuck. Who gives a shit about "problems that Earth people have....but on a different planet!"? The most interesting element of Krypton was when it was this super advanced society which was "doomed" to be destroyed, yet almost everyone chose to stay and die. That seems way fucking cooler than wars and politics and every other thing that's happening now.
>>84508692
This all sounds fucking awful.
Just adapt more or less Birthright, that's the perfect modern Superman movie.
>>84508692
>Cue: power level porn/ Dragonball-style battles
Stopped reading there.
>>84508855
>Who gives a shit about "problems that Earth people have....but on a different planet!"?
Star Trek fans.
Just get rid of the stupid exposed red underwear already. Geez!!!
All those words just to say a bunch of stupid, uninformed bullshit. Reevaluate your life, OP.
>>84508952
It's been gone for 6 years...
>>84508954
Just throwing ideas around to see what sticks, which is what everybody has been doing with no luck. Do you have a treatment? It's pretty much what the thread's for, chief.
OP, your idea sucks.
They should just make a movie that is unconventionally but still quintessentially Superman. No origin shit, nothing like that. Have him land on a blue sun planet for some reason, maybe he drifts there after a huge space fight that knocks him out. The planet is under the thumb of Darkseid and is being run by Kalibak, and a non-powered Superman helps the enslaved people rise up with all that truth, justice, murica stuff. Third act has the major confrontation, the enslaved people versus parademons, Superman versus Kalibak, and an almost dead Superman gets saved when it turns out the planet is in a binary star system, and the other star is yellow. Superman kicks Kalibak's teeth in, he retreats, Superman leaves, cue mid-credit Darkseid scene.
In my mind, the only way to make a good Superman movie in this day and age is to basically treat it like you would an episode of the JLU cartoon. Everything else has failed. Sincerity has failed, origins have failed, mythology has failed, deconstructing the secret identity thing has failed... Just make it like the fucking cartoons, but live action.
>>84508692
>Face it, he's Mickey Mouse.
Stopped reading right there because the recent Mickey Mouse cartoons have been great.
>What is the correct formula for him?
Truth, Justice, and the American way.
It's not hard to grasp, yet no one wants to pick it up.
>>84509063
>Just throwing ideas around to see what sticks, which is what everybody has been doing with no luck.
And that's precisely why they've failed. They need to stay true to what the character is.
>>84508692
>, yet everyone can't seem to get Supes right.
Because they keep thinking he needs fixing, like you. You're that guy that goes "round wheels are so OLD and busted!" and then wonders why nobody wants to invest in your cutting edge brand new square ones.
>>84509067
>Everything has failed
Superman Returns is lame and boring, and Man of Steel is just not very good. They didn't really try to make a really good modern Superman movie.
>Somehow Marvel made Captain America relevant to the times though, yet everyone can't seem to get Supes right.
Because Marvel just let Cap be Cap, they didn't get all self-conscious about it and try to fix what wasn't broken. Whereas WB/DC has done more or less the opposite with Superman.
Superman struggles in popularity because people approach him as broken and in need of repair instead of emphasizing what makes the character work in the first place.
Superman's fine and people would be fine with Superman if that's what they actually got instead of all this other bullshit.
>>84508692
No that's retarded if you want to write about refugees you don't need to fuck an existing character to do it.
>>84508692
Your ideas suck. Kill yourself you autistic neckbeard faggot
>>84509067
What if you had to play by the rules though, ie: make him relatable. What angle would you take?
Ironman and Cap's movies translate so well in the modern age. Was Stan Lee just a better storyteller? Because you can't really do "all-powerful hero with all the bestest powers" story and make it engaging enough. Not unless it's a screwball comedy that shows him pulling doors out of their hinges whenever he opens them and other implications one would experience as a super being in a planet ill-equipped to facilitate his needs.
I thought the animated series did a good job of things.
Take away inculnerability. It's hard to make him look good when he's not in danger
ok here's a good new origin for the modern age that i've been thinking of, ready?
Nn alien planet explodes and a scientist sends his son to earth to save him from the explosion. There that baby is found by farmer parents who bring him up to be a kind hearted person. Because of his upbringing the baby grows up with the urge to help people and moves to a metropolitan city and takes up journalism to give him more access to crimes and other situations where he can help. Give him some sort of costume with a cape or some shit. I know my ideas might be radical but I think you'll find that they work in these modern times.
>>84508973
Fuck
>>84509127
Good lord.
>>84509135
Cap translates well because there not trying to fix what's not broken.
>>84509135
>make him relatable.
Taking away his powers and forcing him to think about his own mortality in times of peril isn't relatable? It's literally one of the only ways to actually make him relatable, other than with the deaths of others around him.
>>84509127
Did you catch any Pokemon today?
>>84509141
Your hired
You can't write a compelling character whose core aspect is "strong as he needs to be"
>>84509067
You mean a Red sun.
A blue sun is like steroids to kryptonians.
>>84509187
Every character is strong as he needs to be. Otherwise they wouldn't never beat their enemies.
>>84509135
>Was Stan Lee just a better storyteller?
You mean Jack Kirby.
>>84509141
Hasn't worked since the Christopher Reeve era though. It needs fresher, finger-on-the-pulse ideas that would make it fit to compete with Marvel in a cinematic storytelling capacity.
>>84509063
See
>>84509103
Man of Steel didn't "fail" because of its ideas, it was because it was a poorly paced movie that failed to let the audience get to know the character, and was up its own ass with the Jesus imagery stuff that went nowhere.
In fact MoS could very easily be an excellent Superman movie with only two or three new scenes and a better editing job.
>>84508926
Fucking Mars niggers
>>84509135
>you can't really do "all-powerful hero with all the bestest powers" story and make it engaging enough.
Except writers have been doing it just fine for decades and decades. Stop talking shit.
>>84509202
Semantics. Beside the point.
>>84509189
You know what, faggot?
...
You're right, good catch.
>>84509141
Edgy
>>84509224
I disagree. I don't think there's a way to fix the tornado scene and in general the focus is on the wrong aspects of the character.
What Snyder and OP both don't understand is that Clark Kent is an immigrant/adoption success story. He's not haunted by the ghosts of Krypton. He doesn't even really identify as alien. He's not lost and looking for his home and his people. He HAS them already. That's why he works to protect Earth; because from his earliest memories that's been the only home he's known and loved.
>>84509253
In what, the Hancock movie? That turned out great. Hulk stand-alone movies are failures. Citation needed, Einstein.
>>84509141
>>84509222
Good morals and earnest storytelling are so outdated.
>>84509298
That's actually a good angle. It'd be hard avoiding the schmaltziness in the message though.
Sounds like a pretty good story for a different character entirely.
Also, god, with "refugee" being basically a slur these days everyone would accuse it of political pandering. I mean, just try to say you have sympathy for refugees in a German bar and see what happens.
>>84509316
Yeah they really are. Which is the only reason this generation identified with narcissist Tony Stark so much.
>>84509304
Writers of Superman comics, not movies.
>>84508855
Jesus Christ I don't know who's idea is worse - yours or the Op's
>>84508692
>Somehow Marvel made Captain America relevant to the times though
MCU Cap is entirely bland though. He's only relevant due to being part of a successful film franchise.
>>84509348
I figured with everything that happened in Bastille Day in France and how some of refugees allegedly, are to blame, the story of Supes fighting against rogue, hostile (ie: jihadist) Kryptonians in an uphill battle to restore their good name would resonate more.
>>84509379
Nah, the culprit in France was a French-Tunesian. What everyone neglects to mention is that what happens in France is the result of racial tensions that have existed for longer than the IS does. Not that religious extremism doesn't play a major part in it but it shouldn't be reduced to that entirely.
>>84509355
People generally prefer Cap
>>84509375
His ideas are good though. A golden age adaption of Super Man would he awesome.
>>84509103
Ok cool. So we're in the WB executive boardroom during crisis mode and they're asking you to pitch ideas and you say "nothing needs changing". God help you.
superman is so fucking simple that it's sad nobody gets it. Clark Kent is a good guy, he was raised to be a good guy, he knows what you do to be a good guy. He's all American home cooked food farm boy style guy but he also has to be a god. He'd rather just be a good person but now he's an adult and has to deal with adult problems except like crazy exaggerated.
>>84508692
Don't quit your day job.
>>84509473
We're not a bunch of cocksucking marketers. What we have are decades of great comics that prove your claims are retarded and ignorant.
How about instead of asking people to reinvent him for you, you go read some fucking comics for inspiration?
>>84509501
This is literally the way you would go with Superman, to focus on his humanity and to grow through the troubles he faces. Why are people so retarded and try to make up these complex issues when all you really need to do is make him feel human - even though he's really an alien?
>>84509298
>He's not haunted by the ghosts of Krypton. He doesn't even really identify as alien.
Alan Moore, Grant Morrison and Mark Millar would disagree with you. And they wrote the best Superman stories ever.
That's how the character was in the Silver Age, though. Millar think they've broken him since COIE and the Pre-Crisis version was absolutely more interesting.
>>84509426
Yeah, but you know how easy it is to blame the refugees for society's ills. They could seriously pounce on this and do a subtle art imitating life allegory and make a commentary on it. As a refugee, Superman is the perfect vehicle to address this issue.
>>84509426
>>84509575
He literally shouted Allahu Ackbar before he died. He was also trafficking many guns and explosives which were found inside of the truck. Don't pretend this had nothing to do with IS, because it's all linked with the past, present, and future.
>>84509575
I think Martian Manhunter would fit the role much better. Superman was just a baby when he came here, J'onn was an adult who had spent his whole life in Martian culture with a Martian family.
>>84509534
Maybe. Here's what it boils down to though: be relevant, or your movie will flop. If your movie flops, no more superman movies for 20 years. If the entire world understands the character, they will want to buy movie tickets to Part 2. Then you get more movies, a fracnchise, then a cinematic universe with a cohesive narrative.
>>84508692
>Somehow Marvel made Captain America relevant to the times though
No. Marvel just made movies with funny jokes. And in your eyes, that makes him "relevant".
>>84509601
I literally wrote that religious extremism does play a major part in it. I would be the last to defend religion and the special treatment it gets in Western Europe. We should put less emphasis on Freedom of Religion and more on Freedom from Religion.
>>84509534
I don't know why they try to adapt these but wel know stories when the lite sweet ones are usually the best. Cavil can be saved if he's ok in the JL movie. Then I would have a two year skip of Superman just doing great deeds and heroic things across the world and fighting some crazy monsters and silver shit and then make a "There Must Be A Superman" movie using Maggins' story as the basis.
>>84509603
Well that's why I'm calling for a change to update the character. We could humanise refugees through him and make a period movie that actually matters. Snyder's "gods amongst men" angle isn't really saying anything of consequence and won't matter in the long term. The current movies are adequate as a piece of entertainment but ultimately forgettable.
>>84509675
Cap's second movie had a lot to say about privacy and national security actually. It could have been about Red Skull returning with Frost Giants and using them as bio weapons to fight cap in the modern day and taken the full fantasy route, but it chose to be relevant, and tackle relevant issues.
>>84508855
People stayed on Krypton because nobody thought it would explode/nobody believed Jor-El. The only reason for him and Lara staying was because they couldn't fit in Kal-El's baby pod.
How difficult is it for people to grasp that?
>>84509697
Start it with Of Thee I Sing then the Morrison jumper story then end it with There must Be a Superman and that's a beautiful film
get the dude who directed Midnight Special to do it
>>84509740
I'm a Supes fan but, why did they only make a tiny baby pod and not family pods if they're so advanced?
>>84508857
They tried that and we got Murderfaceman
>>84509871
Read the comics.
>>84509898
Indulge me, please. There's quite a few of those.
>>84509871
In the original GA stories, it's not really explained, it's a just "because plot device" so that he was the only survivor, when they did get around to telling his origin story, mostly for the daily newspaper strip, which eventually got used in the comics magazines (as they were then called).
This Anon is correct as to the GA origin >>84509740; later on, it got adjusted a bit that the pod COULD have fit Lara but she chose to stay on Kyrpton with Jor.
>>84509871
They didn't make a family pod because the pods were experimental ones that Jor was trying to make. It also goes with the later versions of the tale where Krypton had stronger than Earth gravity and it took a lot more power to escape it's gravity well for space travel, one of the reasons that Krypton, while advance, didn't engage in space exploration and didn't already have a fleet of space ships. THAT also later got adjusted to Kryptonians HAD, during one of the 'great ages,' engaged in space travel but for multiple reasons, found it caused domestic problems or interstellar relation problems and were not space travelers in Jor's time frame.
The size of the space pod is also a rationale for Krypto when he was introduced in the Silver Ages (when they started populating the Super Books with all sorts of Kryptonians) because HIS space pod was also 'baby sized' because these pods were test pods for a later fleet to evacuate the Kryptonian population - Jor tested it out on an animal at first, the same way humans were doing for space flight in the space age - but didn't get approval/didn't get around to creating the space fleet.
>>84509959
Ah, thank you very much. I had assumed something like that.
>>84509545
>>84509501
This is what Kevin Costners scenes were about and I have to say, they were a weak point. The movie fell flat whenever he gave the contradictory "be a good guy... but don't save people or they'll hate you" flashback spiel. Maybe let the farmboy angle go?
>>84509635
Michael Bay and the entirety of his output would disagree with you, with a world-wide gross for his movies based on crappy toys making $3.75 billion plus alone:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchises/chart/?id=transformers.htm
>>84509473
No, in that case I say "We need to go back to basics". Guys like you talk about how Superman doesn't work in the modern world but most of the shit you look at isn't a reflection of Modern Superman at all.
Superman Returns was a retro throwback by a guy that, by his own admission, didn't like the character and only got into it via the Donner movies.
Smallville was a teen drama with a strict "no capes, no flying" rule.
Snyderverse is a deconstruction. And don't fucking claim it isn't when the Snyders themselves are admitting as much in order to convince people to see Justice League.
The ONE time in the last 20 years someone gave an honest and genuine try at rendering Superman was the DCAU and lo and behold it was a huge fucking success.
>>84509986
>but don't save people or they'll hate you
THIS is what was the weakness in the Kevin Costner's scenes (which would include the weird dream sequence from the last movie as well as Ma Kent's Costernesque speech to Clark from it as well).
>>84509501
This is the take that the comic books and some of the animated movies/series have taken since COIE. That Superman is, perhaps, the most human of the DC Pantheon, extended JL, etc. and was the whole point of the weird 'conceived on Krypton but BORN' on Earth aspects of the birthing matrix.
"Farm" and 'midwest' are just simplifications for 'salt of the Earth,' 'basic (good) humanity' type values - it doesn't have to be a farm but especially now, with all the back to nature/organic movements in the first world, still make it a relevant origin story. IT isn't the problem.
>>84508855
I think you misunderstand what it is you think you misunderstand and it's just your own feelings about Kal-El. Movies like GotG and the Star Wars franchise are proof positive that people will pay good money and go in large numbers/buy DVDs/pirate shit based on space travel, other planets, etc., even those which are not fully humanoid based species.
Given that we have any number of people who fly as a power, that's not really the issue. An adaptation of Morrison and/or the Fleischer serial animated films would be a good starting point for an origin film, but the last thing Superman needs today is another origin story in live action.
>>84510005
Let's stop resting on the laurels of such benchmarks though. Plus, everybody gets Transformers because it's easy to get. A car that can turn into a robot, I'm sold, two tickets please. Easy. To this day, I still don't get what Superman's deal is. Masculinity, check. Tragedy, I'm the last of my kind, check. This businessman is my arch enemy that I can't seem to make go away because I'm obeying the laws of this planet, check. Also, I'm a Judeo-Christ figure, check. Etc.. So many things define him. That may be a good thing, but may also be to its detriment, as it creates difficulty in finding the focus of a definitive story.
>>84510066
You're right. You don't get what his deal is.
Superman's masculinity is innate, not an overt character trope. Tragedy doesn't really define him like it does so many others.
Let me see if I can put it this way. Batman views his sidekicks and fellow superheroes as soldiers in a war. Superman views them as friends / co-workers he can go out for bowling and burgers with.
Superman, more than any other superhero (except maybe the Flash), is the blue collar everyman guy that just wants to do good. All other trappings are secondary to this. What matters about Superman is that he's an earnest, moral guy. This is the part that his critics seem to think is "hokey and old fashioned" (to put it lightly). It's always the part they try and mess with when you get down to it as well, hence you get guys like Snyder that go "oh but he can't save everyone and people need to hate him and he needs to be tortured by it".
Superman is one of those characters with q strong enough personality that, even if you took away his powers and his alien origin and all that stuff, you could still buy him becoming a firefighter or EMT or something like that. And a story that says that those are complicated and morally ambiguous fields needs to fuck right off.
>>84508692
>Face it, he's Mickey Mouse. A product of a by-gone era.
Stopped reading. Go read "What's So Wrong With Truth Justice And The American Way" and then get back to us.
Then let him die.
If he doesn't work why do you want him to continue? If you have to alter him into something else so he can appeal to modern audiences why not simply abandon him and make a new story?
At worst you're just trying to leech of a successful character to carry your new product. At best you're just admitting you don't know how to write a successful character but would rather blame the character for your own shortcomings.
>>84510179
>If you have to alter him into something else so he can appeal to modern audiences why not simply abandon him and make a new story?
There's more money in making something familiar to people than making something completely new.
And the reason all of these things are made is money.
>>84510099
Well that's pretty much exactly what I said, I don't get his deal. I think symbolically, he's a lot of different things to a lot of different people. A gym junkie type sees him as a symbol for masculinity, boom, T-shirt sales, sup Instagram I'm a superhero. Females see him as a Prince Charming figure, boom, movie tickets sold in pairs. Kids see him as a cartoon character that fights bank robbers.. etc.. To the patriot, he symbolises the American Way, wholsomeness and doing good deeds. Everybody simplifies him to their understanding of the character. Digesting all that, it's hard to come up with anything definitive to the point of Transformers' "car that turns into a robot" basic pitch, other than "Superman is a symbol".
>>84509735
meme
>>84509735
What did the Winter Soldier have to as something relevant to say again?
At the end of the day, everything boiled down to Hydra being evil again.
>>84509735
*say
>>84510179
Because it's a puzzle with an answer and I'm intrigued with how to solve it. I marvelled (=D) at how they pulled something as ridiculous as Thor off by taking the Shakespearan/ Lord of the Rings angle to fill that particular niche. If they can tell that story and make it palatable to the point of having him co-exist with Ironman and Hulk without anyone questioning why the shit a Norse god is playing party games with his hammer with them, then I think Superman can be made to work too.
>>84510275
Drone warfare.
>>84510304
>Made Thor Work
Call me when they do.
>>84510275
He was very sceptical and mistrustful of the government, which I think we all are. It had Wikileaks undertones to it. America is a different place to the one he left behind when he was frozen and the movie explored exactly how different.
>>84510330
For sheer entertainment value, it works. Dark World's villain was overshadowed by the screwball comedic elements to it. The franchise is very obviously geared at the British market with its dry sense of humour.
>>84510361
>dry sense of humour.
Darcy's existence begs to differ on that.
>>84510361
>The franchise is very obviously geared at the British market with its dry sense of humour.
Yes, old chap, I too got a right sensible chuckle out of "mew mew".
>>84510066
So you get Thor's deal? Or you get Peter Lord's and Groots and a talking feral space animal?
100K plus issues of the Superman Rebirth story were sold, that's not counting digital downloads and pirated copies. Likewise, every issue of the Superman Unchained special sold 100K plus. That you don't get something isn't that the character is no longer relevant. The fact that someone made a film that doesn't get the character either isn't a reason to want to redo as much as OP or the second response have in mind.
>>84510376
Can't win'em all. But that scene where Thor is in the tube and the blonde pretends to fall just so she can touch his chest is some straight Benny Hill shit bro
>>84510435
Well, you gotta find the right angle so that everyone's on the same page. That's what I meant by "getting it". Here's a challenge: summarise Superman, (ie: the general gist of either the character, though preferably the myth/ legend of) in 5 words or less. Bonus points if you can do it in 3 words.
>>84510474
Truth Justice American Way
>>84510435
Yes.
Groot: talking tree
Rocket: talking raccoon
Star Lord: Space Indiana Jones
Not much to it. That's the genius of good storytelling and characters. You immediately get it.
>>84510334
Its not, at all. And he is pro interventionism in the third movie.
>>84510480
"powerful alien refugee helping (the people of) earth"
>>84510474
All American superhero
>>84509085
What's "The American Way"? See, that's changed in the modern day. That isn't the same as it was when that slogan was created to sell the character.
>>84510066
I really don't get why it's so hard for you to understand it. It's in no way at all more complicated than Batman.
Who is Superman? He's a good man trying to do the right thing, but doesn't always know what the right thing is. What's more relatable than that?
I don't know where you're getting all this shit about masculinity.
>>84510745
>What's "The American Way"?
There's no american way, there wasnt even back then.
>>84510757
On the surface it is all about masculinity as the logo has become a symbol of strength. The very name of it is masculine, much more than even He-Man sounds. The Nietzschean concept of the Ubermensch is masculine. It's not hard to see how mainstream normies would make this Superman=masculinity connection.
>>84510474
It's really pretty simple (and since you're putting absurd constricts):
Here to help.
In other words, with all his gifts, he's not doing it for fame (Peter Lord, Tony Stark, etc.) or from a quest for vengeance / right a wrong/wrong-doing (Batman, Spider-Man, etc.)
He feels that his abilities just came to him and even if he could be a god, or others take him as a Space Jesus figure, he only wants to help. THAT's one of the reasons people who do get the character had problems with some of the characterizations ascribed to Jonathan and Martha in MoS and BvS.
>>84510489
The point of a successful movie or book is not that you can sum it up in a few (one to three) words, you can name any number of movies or books where that has failed:
Turbo: fast (talking) snail
John Carter: Human on Mars
Sahara: Desert Indiana Jones
That's EXACTLY why it's not as simple as being able to sum something up in one to three words that makes something genius, genius.
>>84508692
What you described has been done a million times in comics (Artificial superhumans? Evil Kryptonians? Over the top fights between superpowered beings?). There's nothing original here, and we already had the alien refugee crap with the New Krypton arc. Also, it boggles the fucking mind that anyone would say that Superman should ape DBZ, when it's the other way around. Doomsday's entire character exists as a vehicle for DBZ-style battles.
You make a Lex Luthor movie and have Superman be the villain.
OP that was bad and youre a faggot
>>84511028
A valid argument. Discounting the less favourable, poorly crafted properties though, it's still hard to sum up Supes clearly in such a way, which was the main point I was making.
>>84511202
That was constructive. Got any ideas? I'm asking.
>>84511028
>He feels that his abilities just came to him
Wasn't he born with them? Which is another X-Men-esque angle they could take.
>>84510745
What if Superman stands for the American Dream, not Way?
>>84511054
They could kill so many birds with one stone with the introduction of that Kryptonian refugee ship. Of course the villainous ones would slaughter a good number of them, leaving Power Girl, Supergirl et al to spin-off in their own movies. It would work as a springboard to introduce what these characters are and why humans would decide to create their own/ become superheroes in the first place. By Part 3, most DC comic book characters could be established in this Cinematic Universe after the catalyst of the Kryptonian refugee ship.
>>84510474
"how can i help?"
>>84511329
But even then, what is that? The right to bear arms? Because I have a feeling he'd be against that. Clark wouldn't vote for Trump, put it that way.
>>84511250
same as that other guy who said back to basics, theres no point in any long winded speech, just focus on what made people fall in love with the character for 75 years
>>84508692
Man of Steel was half-right. Good action, good effects. It was too damn long for such a simple premise, and tried to insert pathos where it didnt belong.
If you're gonna tell us why it sucks to be Superman, don't do some horseshit like "I'm so different and alone that it HURTS SO BAD!" It's a fucking cheap and half-assed way to make him relatable.
It's more like "GOD DAMN, while I'm saving this city from a typhoon, I can hear 80,000 people getting eaten alive in the next state! Why can't I do more?!"
>>84508692
To make Superman work you need to make him be the personification of a by gone era. Superman must ultimately be too human to be human. Too good. Superman should be a man at odds with the world around him. Who feels like the world his father taught him to strive for, the kind of people his father, his REAL Father ,Pa Kent taught him was the ideal is going away. But Superman's way is not to brood over it, or to be bummed out, maybe in a few quiet moments ,intimate, vulnerable moments with those he trusts to humanize him. But Superman's way should be to do everything he can to inspire and to bring that ideal back.
Superman is the personification of hope and truth. Superman is the Superman. The ideal that every man should strive to be like. But the world around him isn't that perfect world, Metropolis is not that perfect city until he starts changing it, but he doesn't do it by force, he does it by inspiring people to do better, to be better.
I'd have a story that takes place a few years after Superman first arrives on the scene. Metropolis has been rebuilt better than ever, it's people are full of hope, courtesy, they hold the door for each other, there are shoe shines. and people who visit the city are astounded by how it has become a reflection of Superman's best self, how he's inspired people. And they react in different ways.
And here comes the major conflict, while some, like Bruce Wayne will be amazed by what he's accomplished, others will be repulsed and horrified to see it. Lex Luthor in particular hates that people idolize Superman, He hates that Superman has become this symbol of hope and good, he hates that they turn to him....but not to Luthor.
See ,Luthor's major beef is Luthor wants to be adored and admired as the hero of humanity he thinks he is, he claims to want to bring America into the future. Superman would spend the movie interacting with others, saving people whole others are amazed that he is so good. But outside metropolis
I would like to adress his alien side even more.
I mean, phenotypically he is human, but what' inside?
Maybe he has all his organs on the other side (like that one condition I can't remember the name of) or maybe the essential amino acids he needs are different from those humans need, and so on.
This would also make conceiving a child with Lois basically impossible, so while he may feel love, he might never have a proper family. Or maybe he can't feel love at all because kryptonians don't have feelings like humans.
I think it would fit for all the crazies we have running around in increasing numbers.
>>84511408
Yeah I agree. Imagine what it would really be like to fly like that and have the character react the same way. I think everyone would relate to that. He chuckled when he realised he could do it in MoS. I personally would've laughed very loudly for a long time while shooting through clouds. I would've liked to have seen Clark doing that, crying even, knowing that he's about to change the world with this gift.
>>84511449
Oh, and I meant morphologically, that fits better.
Also, it would make for a really interesting take on him "alienating" people.
Like another guy here said, Superman is an adoption success story- which was only possible because he looked exactly like the people in whose middle he landed.
Now imagine he had a cat-like dick and all the other boys would ridicule him to no end when they saw him in the shower.
Or make him have more vertebrates.
Just make him a BIT of a freak, so he won't grow up all goodie-do-good, but maybe even have a kind of contempt for those humans.
Kind of like a stronger Peter Parker, though I can't remember right now why exactly Peter stays the good guy.
>>84511445
Outside metropolis, Superman is feared for his power, mistrusted because no one can be that good. No one believes he is genuine because Luthor is campaigning to make people believe he's some sinister plan to fool people into letting their guard down. The whole world is terrified Superman will turn himself into a dictator, even though the Justice league exists, Brother eye and ARGUS start up and Luthor ends up creating the engine of his own destruction by stirring up this mistrust. Meanwhile Superman's real inner conflict is that he can't save everyone.
At several points he's caught between one tradgedy, and another, and he has to choose, there'd be a scene where Batman is in the fortress of solitude and is shocked by the amount of mail he gets somehow. And he smirks a little seeing how beloved he is. How he keeps all of them. But then his smile fades and he shows Diana, all the letters, opened, many with tears stains, of "Why didn't you save them, Superman?" "Why is my husband dead? Why didn't you save my son, why didn't you come?" Mountains of them all opened.
Superman appears larger than life to almost everyone, but people who know him best see the real him. Just a boy from Kansas trying to do good in the world. He really is some smalltown salt of the earth guy with a big heart, not some benevolent alien god, not some savior, he's just a guy who has immense power and feels it's his duty and honor to use them to help people.
Meanwhile, Superman saves, with the help of a few others, the world from some threat Luthor unleashed to make a point about Superman, and is arrested for it, he's still screaming about how Superman is an evil, untrustworthy alien who will be the doom of humanity, but no one is listening to him anymore really.
>>84508692
This sounds like a Fucking kike agenda, fuck off you jew
>>84511449
This is fascinating too because with everyone running around calling him an alien or "The Alien" as Batfleck called him, which I appreciated.. It still isn't emphasised enough. He looks like the perfect human specimen if anything.
>>84511408
It's like angsty vampires: "poor me, I will be young and beautiful forever." It's even worse in a universe where they can drink animal blood.
>>84511523
How come you hate Jews so much, is it because you have a little dick?
>>84510510
He's not a refugee, he was adopted.
I guess the problem I have is that he almost always lacks personality, or has so of late. Why is that? Why can't he smile more or joke around or get super-pissed even? The angle I would take in my reboot would be to make him heightened not just in senses, but emotions as well. Like a bi-polar god. But he has to keep the angry emotions in check because he doesn't want to crush the petty criminal's skull in his bare hands. That's the inner conflict in my reboot because that's what the inner conflict would be for all of us if we had superhuman abilities but were raised flawed and imperfect. We would be on that journey with him every step of the way.
>>84511514
>make superman feel contempt for humanity
fucking GROSS
>>84509298
>he's not haunted by the ghosts of krypton
Kys Byrne
>>84511607
He's both. You can be both.
>>84511632
It's a bit misleading to label him such is all, especially when trying to define him. That's not what he's about, his origin story is just a minor tidbit.
>>84511288
He was born with them in the sense that any Kryptonian would have them, so yes, they came to him without any effort on his part. In the original GA stories, he just punched, jumped, used his extra sensitive/super hearing or super vision as a matter of course. In later versions, post-crisis, they showed that other superheroes trained him in say fighting style, in particular Batman doing this (as he did for other DC heroes).
>>84511238
My initial comments were all in reference to OP's main thrust and the second post right below OP. I personally don't think that it's difficult to 'get' Superman; I hadn't read any books in a long time. I was never a post-crisis reader and the first things I picked up were trades, like Superman for all Seasons and Secret Identity, which confused me, but only because I was familiar most recently with Smallville, the first two Donner movies (never saw 3 and 4) and Returns. My confusion was Luthor, Lionel (from Smallville), etc. It wasn't confusion about the character in general.
Once I started watching S:TAS or JLU I also wasn't confused except for 'why Hawgirl was there, etc.'
>All those petty attempts to escape from reality - thread
GUYS! GUYS! HOLY SHIT I GOT IT! HOW ABOUT WE TAKE SUPERMAN AS HE IS---AND THEN MAKE A FUCKING MOVIE ABOUT HIM? HOLY FUCK
Invincibility is a lousy power for a hero to have. We all know hero would prevail, but Superman doesn't have to be clever, imaginative or flexible about it.
Batman would have to hide in shadows, ambush and evade counter-attacks. Superman can just walk in and have bullets bounce off him. It's as exciting as seeing grown man boxing a toddler.
This way we can make superman actually risk daily and prevent ridiculous power creep and kryptonite infestation dramatic needs always create around him.
>>84508692
I guess I don't understand WHY Superman is seen as a relic of a bygone age. At his core, it's about a guy with superpowers who was raised right who decides that "if I CAN help, I WILL help". What's so old-fashioned and unbelievable about that? I think that it's wonderfully optimistic and I think it says something bad about the human race that we can't conceive of a person being that altruistic.
As for having a bunch of Kryptonians land on Earth...I don't like that idea because part of Superman's psychology revolves around the fact that there is no one else like him in all of the world, in all the universe. From a certain standpoint, he is all alone (minus Supergirl, Superboy, and the occasional rogue Kryptonian), which is why in part he has a Fortress of Solitude. Hell, Supergirl has its flaws, but I think the show has done a solid job of showing that Kara at times feels very alone because of her heritage.
I think Man of Steel has set up a good power level for Superman, he's extremely tough, but he's not invulnerable. I would give him back his frost breath, because why the fuck not, but make sure his sensory powers don't get too OP.
>>84511368
It means that all people are equal, have the opportunity to pursue whatever they want, have the right to hold whatever belief they want, can do what they want as long as it doesn't infringe on others, etc.
And don't go telling me WELL ACTUALLY IN AMERICA YOU DONT GOT NONE OF THAT or whatever, I'm talking about the American ideal, not what it actually is.
Superman actually started as a socialist hero, by the way.
>>84511742
Americans found out that helping people and being general busybody doesn't work.
>We can help poor people!
>Poor people are now dependent on welfare
>We can help Afghanistan!
>It's full of Taliban
>We can help Iraq!
>Iraq is not in chaos
>>84508692
>Somehow Marvel made Captain America relevant to the times though
I find people who are surprised by and can't understand this, should not be talking about this
>A product of a by-gone era.
The very fact your narrow view and comprehension can be so thoroughly subverted demonstrates it holds no actual weight outside what you believe you're seeing.
Superman has less planted roots in his character than others like Captain America and Magneto. Him and his current reception are not a product of anything outside the incompetence of current writers. This laughable habit of people to deflect the fault onto a character is also exactly why it persists.
Can you imagine how many clowns thought it was impossible to right Steve in modern day? Let alone make a movie? Then McFeely, Markus and the Russos get it done twice and carry on without fuss. The second was completely improv too. They ask Feige "How you want your movie, cuz?" Feige tells them we need something for BvS, they respond "Say no more".
Anyone holding onto that weak excuse unabashedly should just clear out their desk, if anything their era has passed, they're not getting shit done and they should just make room for any of the literal children writing fanfiction with more effort than them.
Goddamn subliminal circus show is what it is.
>>84511790
I've been looking for that pic
>GuyGardenerBlowsAYeti.jpg
>>84511696
>We all know hero would prevail, but Superman doesn't have to be clever, imaginative or flexible about it.
Yes he does, you mongoloid. Have you literally ever read one single Superman comic in your entire life?
Do you think for 75 years every issue of Superman has been him going somewhere, a problem arising, and him instantly resolving it in ten seconds? Even in the early Silver Age when he could lift planets with his pinky his solutions were at least always creative.
>>84511833
So either he creates power creep (How are we going to challenge Superman? Let's make robot that is also strong and have him wrestle it) or have Superman that could solve the problem in a moment, but didn't because plot.
>>84508692
Lets leave garbage like this in the Elsewhere bin where it needs to be. We don't need this political, "comics are making statements" shit in DC. I don't care about the fucking refugees on this planet why would I care about ones from a fictional planet?
There's nothing wrong with Superman aside from shitty writing.
Why is it we accept retreads of garbage like the Doomsday fight (even if it hasn't been terrible this time around) and lambaste anyone trying to retread on more personal stories.
If someone tried to reproduce "For the man who has everything" we'd call him an asshole. If you draw superman punching doomsday it's "lets see how it unfolds this time."
>>84511780
Yeah, but the type of "help" Superman gives isn't "let me try and solve all the world's problems", and more like "Oh my God, that drunk driver's about to hit that family!". So that's not really an issue here, though I see what you're saying. Interestingly enough, in the book "Peace On Earth", Superman does try to stop world hunger and faces a lot of unintended consequences and blowback because of this. It could definitely be worked into a movie as a subplot.
>We can help Iraq!
>Iraq is not in chaos
Not to get political, but Iraq was a huge mistake that the Bush administration knowingly led the American people into.
>>84511613
There are plenty of versions of Clark that smile or otherwise shown emotion that have been shown in the past two decades, in films, on TV (animation and Smallville), and in the comic books. It just wasn't the Clark we saw in MoS or BvS.
>>84511928
>Not to get political, but Iraq was a huge mistake that the Bush administration knowingly led the American people into.
American propaganda is a propaganda of democratic busybody who always meddles in people's affairs for its own good. Iraq was one of such images in action.
More intellectually inclined people, even as little as required to read comic books see through it.
>>84511368
So you're assuming Superman opposes the founding principles of the U.S..
>>84511780
Superman could find the majority of corrupt politicians and evidence of it, make the evidence public and then make sure they were properly punished and arrested.
The combination of flight and super speed makes him into a lazy god. If he went back to leaping buildings in a single bound I wouldn't believe that he could fly around Earth super fast and fix 90% of systemic problems.
>>84511695
Story not working in the modern day, think harder.
>>84511368
>Because I have a feeling he'd be against that
I have a feeling Superman would support my views because I'm duh right one in da situation 100%.
I have a feeling Superman would look at it as a complex issue, that has dangers on both ends, but could work with either implimentation if done correctly.
You're an idiot who believes that one of the two solutions is the "right answer."
>>84511833
Well we're talking about cinematic superman, so we haven't seen metallo or brainiac yet.
>>84512005
Stories that offer completely impossible solutions to real life problems always made me cringe.
However, it might have potential. But another thing I feel about Superman is that all the fun stuff you can do with him usually doesn't actually warrant all those powers he has. Only fraction of them.
>>84511963
Clark aside, I'd like to see superman smile at a kid after rescuing her cat from a tree. I dare you Snyder >:)
>>84511997
Well he would see guns as a force of violence and he would probably be against them to some capacity because he would see a shit tonne of Compton crips shooting up the neighbourhood and think, my job would be a lot easier if I enforced gun control.
>>84512060
I don't want that story, but I mean suspension of disbelief Anon.
Superman is supposedly a good person, he is also god-like. So either his powers need to be or actually are toned down in universe, or he isn't actually a saint and there's moral ambiguity to him.
It's that whole all-powerful or all-good thing, either approach would make him interesting.
>>84511860
I still don't know what you're talking about. There are plenty of enemies that can and do take Superman.
Aside from that most of the time the challenge isn't punching a bad guy, it's saving people from the bad guy.
You know what, I don't even know why I'm arguing. Y'all clearly need to read some Superman comics.
>>84508692
You're looking it upside down. A hero shapes the world and decides what goes and what doesn't, not the other way around.
The question is not "how to make the hero different to fit the modern setting" but "how would the modern setting react differently to the same hero than the previous setting".
You keep the hero as it is. It might just happen that the world will react differently to him.
At first. Because eventually, the hero transcends time , customs and thought processes and impacts people, no matter how different, due to his own core. Especially an iconic one as Supes.
Morrison's inspiration for this early part of the run was the very first Superman comics, in which he was far less powerful and fought corrupt politicians and businessmen as a "hero for the working class".
But not like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njG7p6CSbCU
>>84512192
I remember this, one of my favorite parts of the New 52.
>>84511790
When I said "somehow" I was being objective, referring to the fact that they got it right, unlike the recent treatment of Superman.
It is 100% reliant on the creative team. Which is why the thread asks you to imagine what you would do with the character if you were part of the (cinematic) creative process.
>>84512126
Morrison's early AC is actually a good example of people being given what they supposedly want only for it to ultimately go over like a lead baloon anyway. It's basically the opposite of All Star in that All Star was this this gleefully indulgent blowjob of a thing that went out of it's way to do all the things that make Superman a "bad" character, while AC was this really self-conscious attempt to "fix" things and make Supes cool again. Then they had to try make him cool again AGAIN and then they just killed him off.because fuck it I guess.
>>84512307
It's interesting because some see it as "edgifying" Superman, but I think it's trying to recapture what was so appealing about him in that first appearance.
Remember, in 1938 people probably read Action #1 and went "Wow, this guy is one sick fucking badass"
>>84512307
Personally as someone who liked this, and isn't a huge fan of Superman (an I mean that in the literal I think hes fine but I'm not super into him)
I thought this was really engaging, but I doubt this would get "normies" into him. Also the Superman run was never always like this all the way through, there was a lot of real garbage especially on the Lobdell side that led to Nu52 Supes death.
>>84512203
smae
>>84512346
Actually a continuation, I think New 52 would have been stronger if it really rebooted and went back to Zero Year.
If they went in order from this and Batman zero year up to the formation of the Justice League and through the Bat family and everything, but modernising all of the old stories that would be interesting.
>>84512346
My purpose in posting it is mostly just to show that, no, Superman ISN'T this boring guy who just magically solves every problem immediately.
And that becomes more clear once we see Superman get back to his iconic power levels later on.
>>84512373
I agree, somewhat. Obviously they would have to have a JLA title out of the gate, but they could have that take place two years in the future or something.
Other than that, yeah, we should have had this as Superman Year One, Batman Zero Year, and a Wonder Woman Year One at the very least. I appreciate that the way it was done we got some very good runs out of it anyway, though.
>>84512381
Yeah I was talking more about the whole giving people exactly what they want but still not going over well.
I think at this point people don't like Superman for reasons out side of whats actually shown in the books, because he's not "cool."
This is probably a good storytime for anyone who doesn't like Superman, but is in this thread though. I think this would be a good example of the kind of interesting thing you can do with him.
His character concept definitely isn't boring it's just I feel like he's harder than most capes to write well, so he needs a very strong writer to keep him good.
>>84511515
This anon gets it
>>84511515
Always thought tha with great powe, comes great responsibility applied more to Superman than to anyone else.
>>84512343
Oh yeah, I really liked it too. I wish it could've gone at least bit longer. I just think the contrast and Morrison's other Superman stuff and the differing reactions is sort of telling.
>>84512346
My (admitted) frustration is that we talk about Superman being this or that as if DC/WB have never tried to answer the complaints. No matter how many times they nerf him, roughen his edges, have him screw up or put in situations he simply can't resolve cleanly if at all: it just gets shrugged off anyway. Comics, cartoons, TV, film, it's across the board now, but it never actually seems to work. It's been years after Man Of Steel now and we're STILL hearing how Superman's this goody two shoes that always gets the easy win.
As a fan, it's irritating to see DC/WB bend over backwards to acquiesce to non-fans who mostly couldn't be bothered anyway. People don't have to be won over, obviously, but I wish they'd stop pandering to people who simply don't seem interested in the first place.
And I know there are people who like the DCEU and Earth One and all that and I'm not trying to shit on anybody's taste or anything, but I don't think it can be denied that there's been diminishing returns (at least long term) each time they've done these big revamps. Particularly in the realm of cinema, where they've basically dug themselves in to a hole as far as Superman is concerned.
>>84512162
Never considered that. So pretty much literally a farmboy with extremely pure, anachronistic-levels of good morals. And he wants to change the world because the world is fucked. But to what extent does he want to change the world? Because a creature that powerful with strong beliefs isn't going to sit idly by while there are injustices in the world. Like drug cartels beheading people, child marriages in other cultures, men throwing acid at women's faces in India.. Sure you're free to practice your religion because he believes in freedom, but I think his belief in justice would overrule his belief in freedom. This fucking guy is going to change the landscape of the world because he has the power to do it and he's not going to be able to help it. Clark isn't going to be able to sleep at night knowing that female genital mutilation is being practiced in the world he lives in so he would probably put a stop to that. A Superman with good old-fashioned values existing in the modern day would probably not be a pacifist. He'd be infuriated, and desperate for change.
>>84512689
Superman doesn't want to change the world. He wants the world to change the world.
>>84512678
I don't think they need to pander as such, just make a good movie that adheres to convention. Movies have rules, and a good movie follows them. That's how they become classics.
Seeing those comics, makes me miss Superbro.
>>84512716
But wouldn't he do that using force?
>>84512764
Absolutely not. He sees himself as a protector and champion of the people, not a leader. He doesn't force his own values upon the world.
Like, say, Batman does.
He's just fumbling in this comic, making mistakes. It'd be far more interesting to watch this than it currently is seeing Cavill gliding around in various perfect flight poses.
Fuck the whole Krypton mythos altogether, it's lame and adds little of value.
I honestly believe making Superman an alien was a mistake.
>>84512826
That would make for a frustrating existence because nothing would get changed. Not without intervention. Humans are stubborn. He would intervene to some capacity after a while, he can only save so many people from drug-related deaths before going to Columbia to wipe out entire drug plantations because he was sick of flying junkies to the hospital.
