I feel like the obsession with "deconstruction", post ironic meta commentary, and this smarmy sense of immersion breaking self awareness is what destroyed genuine story telling in comic books. Comic book writers have actively tried to dismantle the sense of immersion into a world of fantasy that was built into the world of superheroes, replacing it with winks and references to "tropes" and other structures of story telling that they rip down and don't even bother to substitute with anything of substance.
>>84494791
Yeah, me too.
>>84494791
I very much enjoy books that grapple with ideas and even metafiction but do it in ways that are not self-consciously showy, and work it into the process of telling stories so you read for story and realize there was a theme behind it. Cary Bates' Captain Atom did that well.
>>84494791
If comics have been consistent on anything it's that they've always reflected the attitudes of the time.
>>84494791
In other news, the sun rises in the east, water is wet, and the pope is, in fact, Catholic.
I think obsession with superheroes is what's destroying comics. Look at how your post assumes that comic books just means superheroes. That's dangerous.
>>84494791
I think we can all agree on that
>>84494894
Comic books wouldn't be anywhere without superheroes. Obviously there are other stories to be told with the medium, but the foundation will always be the superhero.
>>84494981
This is so incredibly both foolish and factually inaccurate it is STUNNING
>>84494791
>post ironic
What does this even mean? I've asked those fags on /lit/ several times over the years and even they don't know.
>>84494981
>Comic books wouldn't be anywhere without superheroes
Except for that decade where they fell out of fashion
>>84495058
Or the decades before they were even a thing
>>84495001
Multiversity, Rebirth, Remender's saga.
>>84495017
What do you mean?
>>84495035
We're in the period where the structures of story telling that were being subverted with irony and meta deconstruction have been replaced by this very same sense of subversive irony, but the tone of comic book writing remains subversive and ironic, it's just now aimless and directed towards nothing. Irony no longer has a non ironic foundation to play off of.
>>84495115
Gasoline Alley?
>>84495058
>>84495115
Those aren't the comic books that made the medium a mainstay in popular culture and defined it.
This is really only a problem for bad writers who don't understand what they are doing or why. Good writers can do the whole "meta deconstruction commentary" thing and not only make it work, but use it to create something new and beautiful thats greater than the sum of its parts.
Pic very related
>>84495191
That sounds like a pretty meaningless distinction. It' more like genre subversion has become the norm instead of the novelty.
>>84495238
Grant Morrison isn't as clever as he thinks he is.
>>84495224
You are right the Sunday Paper far out strips the reach and appeal that Superheroes have had in terms of comics
I should not have been thinking so small.
>>84495191
Superhero comics are not the foundation of comics or storytelling with pictures ANYWHERE in the world, even in North America, they are the fusion of a bunch of stuff that predates them.
It is that simple
>>84495300
Fuck that reminds me I gotta save up for the latest Prince Valiant volume
>>84495194
Yep that page is a Gasoline Alley
>>84495277
And yet that's still more clever than most comic writers.
>>84495300
It's undeniable that the superhero comics of Marvel and DC are what build the foundation for the perception of comic books in our culture. Other stories and characters exist within the medium, but they aren't the pillars of it.
Very few comics do that these days. Name 5 ongoing comics that do this?
>>84494894
We get it, you like fantagraphics.
Man the indies are doing better than they have in forever, can you just leave us the fuck alone?
>>84495360
That is the problem you have, your focus is misplaced.
Emphasis on Characters and Plot will get you to that I guess.
Comics though are so much more than that.
>>84495277
Go away, Moore.
>>84495368
Most modern comics have this tone and attitude towards story telling. It's been the house style of Marvel since Bendis took over.
>>84495413
I understand that comics are much more than that, and I get that this is the point you're trying to get across, but you're going too far in your effort to minimize the importance of superhero comics in relation to the medium.
>>84495428
A meta reference or joke in a comic does not count. Marvel is shit because they are shit.
>>84495456
They are a part of it but not anything major.
Especially when you consider worldwide all the comic markets that dwarf what we do here, and all do it without a reliance on Superhero Stories
>>84494863
This.
I can't stand stories that don't stand on their own outside of their metacommentarylike Pax Americana.
With that one in particular, not being able to "get" the commentary the first time around and needing it explained ruined it for me. With a story that's good in its own right, even if you need an outside source to explain its themes and commentary, you can still appreciate it, but when ALL you're getting out of the comic is what's explained to you by others...
Maybe I'm just a dumbass, though.
>>84495476
Yes it does, it's the exact thing I'm talking about.
Even in terms of character oriented action comics Superheroes don't hold a candle to the real king of that roost
>>84495499
I appreciate what you're trying to get across, and I respect the stories within the medium that aren't superheroes, but it's absurd to claim that superheroes "aren't anything major" within the medium of comic books.
>>84495224
EC comics were coming out a time when comics were selling the most they ever did and they were the leaders. They inspired a generation of creators in films, books and comics. Their impact was tremendous.
>>84494791
The problem with deconstruction is that most writers who claim they are deconstructing concepts in their work don't know what they are doing and use the term to protect their hack job from criticism.
>>84495513
But Pax Americana pretty much stands on it's own. It has it's own mystery and structure, but you can see the meta connection when you read the complete multiversity. Ultra comics on the other end is completely meta.
>>84495552
On the world stage they aren't
It is a problem we have here in North America of assuming whatever we are doing is most important.
>>84495499
>Especially when you consider worldwide all the comic markets that dwarf what we do here, and all do it without a reliance on Superhero Stories
Yeah in the US comics are such a tiny niche market. For the longest time they've been viewed as exclusively being read by "geeks." In other parts of the world it's just another medium without the stigma attached
>>84495603
Even in regards to the world stage, superheroes still have a massive influence on the medium of comic books. Less than in north America alone, sure, but you're going too far in your effort to minimize the influence of superheroes.
>>84495646
No, I really am not.
It would be slightly higher if this was 1991 or the early 60s
>>84495585
>were selling the most they ever did
Yeah because at the time the broad range of genres meant there was something for just about everyone. Then the CCA came along and comics became something only for children as fair as the mainstream was concerned
>>84495667
I'm talking about the entire span of the medium here, not one specific era.
I blame Watchmen personally.
I like Morrison but dude can't tell an interesting story if it doesn't have anything to do with archetypal, mythic, meta bullshit. Even his Batman run was largely about the 'myth and legacy of Batman'
He tries telling a straight story like WW Earth-2 and it's just... nothing.
>>84495549
all these guys are basically superheroes
they uphold the same values and do the same things
read Valiant
>>84495816
Nah the 80's were fine, the 2000's was when mainstream superhero comics really went to shit. Comics like The Authority or Ultimates had a much worse impact
>>84495856
Heroic Ideals existed before Superheroes did
How far back do you want to go?
>>84495513
Pax has beautiful visual storytelling
>>84494863
I think that one did get a little self-consciously showy towards the end, but we know it was rushed because of editorial demands.Hi OP
>>84495856
action ≠superheroes
>>84495816
The problem is not Watchmen,its that everyone else tried imitating Watchmen and failed miserably.
Am I crazy to think that Watchmen is overrated? I liked it but I don't get why alot of people say its one of the greatest comics of all time.
>>84495920
HI ANON
>>84495953
You are crazy it is.
However everyone goes through the phase thinking the groundbreaking amazing work is overrated it is natural
>>84495967
I did really like that run, so thanks for posting it. Even though you couldn't do it exactly now, you could do something with similar elements and the same themes tomorrow and it would still be good.
>>84495915
Gilgamesh is literally a Superhero story
>Hero meets other hero
>they fight
>then realize they should be bros
>be bros
>fight bad guys
>fuck shit up
>dramatic death
>>84496060
You're confusing the the giant and the dwarf.
>>84495827
Except the daily mundane family shit from Animal Man is amazing, and that's like 15ish issues
>>84495953
It's pure storytelling bliss, on the surface level it might not seem like that if you're just reading text bubble to bubble but examine the pages and layouts more, you'll see everything from foreshadowing to world building. It does everything a comic should do when it comes to telling a story. It's not flashy and doesn't need to be to circumvent it's weaknesses. I really wish GIbbons and Moore had worked on another major long form project together.
>>84496084
I know, I'm just saying Superhero stories use mythological tropes all the time and there's tons of crossover (as evinced by many characters being literally mythological)
>>84496089
My favorite part of the run, once Morrison writes himself into the story I lost all interest
>>84496089
Plus Zenith is pretty good even when it's just dumb rich celebrity superhero as well as when it's look I'm writing Miracleman notice me Moore-senpai.
>>84496110
>I really wish GIbbons and Moore had worked on another major long form project together
I think all they did were some back ups in Green Lantern or Omega Men
>>84495888
Don't get me wrong, Watchmen is still a good story, it just began the whole attitude of antiheroes and subversive deconstruction of the genre.
>>84494894
>dangerous
And words are violence.
>>84496121
They miss the biggest part though.
Myths end and the endings are a big part of them so new ones can be told.
Superhero stories don't.
>>84496162
they also worked on superman annual 11, for the man who has everything.
>>84496138
So...at the very end? Lel son.
stop reading cape shit bro beans.
>>84496167
> it just began the whole attitude of antiheroes and subversive deconstruction of the genre.
Not really. Watchmen and DKR get all the credit, but the trends are older than both.
For example The Punisher already had his own miniseries before Watchmen came out
>>84496121
You shouldn't be thinking in terms of "tropes" when you're writing these stories. It shouldn't be some meta commentary on mythical archetypes, it should just be a genuine story using these devices in the service of creating characters and building worlds.
It's the creative world building that I miss the most. That's what's truly missing from modern superhero comics. These days, they're so confined to a contemporary pseudo reality defined by populist social perceptions that they can no longer expand and grow into unique worlds conceived by the individual writers mind.
>>84496089
>Animal Man
>>84496148
>Zenith
Old stuff.
>>84496315
Watchmen is what launched it into the stratosphere though.
>>84496255
I like superheroes though.
>>84496181
Myths also show the progression of the world throughout the ages as a defining aspect of their conception.
>>84496027
I'd love to see a current run on something that tackled the military themes with as much nuance and care instead of "Eiling is a hamfisted cartoon villain". It's not like there's not current issues to work with.
>>84496334
m8 we were just talking about the epic of gilgamesh. we did about 4000 years in 7 minutes, animal man and zenith were written a blink away
>>84496181
The myths were told and retold and adapted over hundreds of years before the definitive arcs were finalised. The same will be the case with our most famous cape heroes (except it'll take decades rather than centuries, I guess).
>>84496481
Kevin Feige and Zack Synder may be the Homer and Hesiod of cape comics. Isn't that depressing?
>>84496322
marvel and dc are going to keep shitting out books that lead nowhere. you see it all the time, whenever a writer introduces something new/interesting it's all going to go back to the normal status quo anyway.
>>84496560
It makes me sick a little bit honestly.
Somebody needs to step up and create a massive, sweeping canon for the mythologies of Marvel and DC
>>84496381
Yes.
>>84494791
No, it's marketing and trends that killed your capes. Read some real comics for once before talking for the entirety of the media.
>>84496677
Superhero comics are also real comics.
>>84494909
>Requiem is amazing.
As Kirby is my witness - I don't see it. It's sentimental tripe to me.
With one exception: this quote.
"If sacred places are spared the ravages of war... then make all places sacred. And if the holy people are to be kept harmless from war... then make all people holy."
>>84495191
...That's horrifying. Like a parasite misguidedly feeding on a mannequin.
>>84495277
How clever does he think he is?
Comic books trying to emulate sitcom esque mundane dialogue is a big aspect of this. Comic books aren't supposed to be dialogue driven
>>84494981
>Comic books wouldn't be anywhere without superheroes.
That's not how you spell Detectives. Like nigga, DC doesn't stand for "Superhero Comics".
Comics were around before superheros. Superhero comics became the big thing during the golden age, but they were only a part of the market until the CCA banned crime, horror, etc. comics for adults.
Basically, superheros being synonymous with comics is the result of US senate meddling in the industry back in the 1950s for moral conservative busybody reasons.
And now today, we get to see the left try the same shit from their own uniquely horrible point of view.
>>84497980
Batman is a detective superhero anon. Superheroes exist within many different genres of story telling.
Comic books peaked in 1986
>>84497943
>tons of characters with drastically different abilities
>fight scenes are always boring as shit and just treated like an obligation to be rushed through
>back to boring drama and bad jokes
The one thing you'd think cape comics would be good at are action.
>>84500597
They're too concerned with acting like they're live action to properly utilize their medium.
>>84494791
I agree. Also I really should read more surfer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1FLRlVnHJQ
RECONSTRUCTIONWHEN
>>84502530
I really despise how comics are stuck in this writer driven trench.
>>84494791
that;s the problem in a nutshell.
why bother taking something apart piece by piece if you're not doing anything to make it better?
Ive always felt there was a thing as being too self aware.
I understand comics may be silly to non fans but its the writers job to make them care more not less.
>>84502891
It might be silly from a readers perspective, but the characters should be taking the events around them seriously in universe. They shouldn't be in on some joke about themselves
>>84494791
Where's that panel from?
>>84503015
yeah, it's the writers job to make their worlds and stories feel real. really it seems that lately the whole wink wink deconstruction thing is little more than a short cut
>>84502664
DCYou and Rebirth are probably the most reconstructive comics we have today.
>using the term deconstruction o refer to fictional work
Dear God.
>>84503558
It's not a panel, it's a poster
>>84503857
Wow even better. Going to look forward in buying one. Who drew it?
>>84502664
I think it started with comics like All-Star Superman
>>84504053
It started in the eighties with comics like Zot.
Morrison gets credit from casuals for being a trailblazer when in fact he's decades behind the curve.
>>84504090
True.
I guess I meant "popularized".
No, what destroyed storytelling in comics is an obsession with canon and continuity. The obsession with filling in holes from previous stories, with referencing previous stories, with "fixing" the shared universe all the comics take place in
There aren't that many metatextual deconstructions out there, maybe a dozen, while nearly every storyline and event in comics revolves around minute details from previous installments that no one but hardcore fans care about or even recognize, to the point of alienating new readers
>>84504702
>No, what destroyed storytelling in comics is an obsession with canon and continuity.
Shut up, Bendis.
>>84504702
The canon and continuity is the only thing that makes superhero comics truly unique
>>84495522
Making pop culture references isn't "meta", even when the references are to your related jokes.
That scene is no more "meta" than your average Family Guy gag.
>>84495522
There's nothing in that image that's Meta.
Meta refers to the work being aware of itself as a piece of created fiction. Something like Deadpool breaking the fourth wall. Or the entire ending of Morrison's Animal Man
>>84494791
Not just capes, a lot of fantasy comics do it too.
>>84505602
>unique
That doesn't make them good. I'd rather have something well written and drawn than unique and average on both fronts
>>84506444
Then read the many superhero comics that aren't by Marvel and DC.
>>84506504
There are plenty of great Marvel/DC comics where they give little to no concern to what came before
>>84495779
>>84495646
If i recall here in south america stuff like superman was dwarfed by comics like asterix and obelix, garfield, calvin and hobbles and a few smaller ones all about either mystery or slice of life stuff.
Super heroes didn't pick up until the current movies came along.
>>84507247
Wasn't the Phantom a popular character in South America?
>>84507733
Yes. t: South American
normies ruin everything
>look a reference to current events and pop stars! LOL XD
the writers go for the lowest hanging fruit
>>84507814
The Phantom is underrated. He's at least on the same level as the Shadow.
>>84495035
it's postmodernism, nothing more, but hipsters can't into movements and history
>>84494791
I think the ability to modernize without ripping apart all that's already been set down is the key. Of course, it can be hit or miss.
>Pic related
