Why are people so mad? The original ending for Infinite Crisis was Golden-Age Supes taking over for Post-Crisis. It's just later.
Wait people are mad about this? I guess you can't please everyone all the time.
>>84477865
Most people are glad he's back.
>>84477865
where did you hear that?
>>84477865
source on that,
also who is mad?
I didn't read his series or follow him in Convergence. What's this Superman's deal? I thought he was pre-Flashpoint Superman, not Kal-L.
>>84477967
I sure am I thought new Sup's was a major ass hat but his death was pretty good his look back on his life and how he was a major ass hat, he died on a good note for me so when they bring him back I'd probably be excited about it.
Wasn't that the original ending for COIE?
>>84478042
He is pre-Flashpoint Superman using Convergence to move him and Lois to nu52 which Dr.Manhattan replaced with another Superman same thing happen to Wally which is why there are two of them.
>>84478092
No. Earth-2 went to a paradise like dimension with Earth-2 Lois, Earth-3 Alexander Luthor Jr. and Earth-Prime Clark Kent, and then Earth-1 Superman gave up on his powers and retired with Earth-1 Lois, having a kid with her, before the existence being rebooted.
Thanks to this Earth-1 Superman was transformed into Earth-0 Superman, who's mostly known as Post-Crisis Superman. He's the Superman that just came back.
>>84478011
Somebody like N52 Supes better than the old one.
>>84478092
yeah, never heard for infinite crisis, but i've heard the story that earth 2 superman wiping off age makeup and white hair dye to takeover post crisis.
>>84478302
That was the intended ending that never happened.
I just want them to reveal that Nu52 Superman was actually Earth-2 Superman that died during Infinite Crisis and was buried somewhere at Earth-0 universe, now called Prime-Earth universe. Since the proper Earth-1/New Earth/Earth-0/Post-Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint Superman was taken by Braniac, when Flash fucked the timestream the universe ressurected Earth-2 Superman turning him into Nu52 Superman.
>>84478362
Yeah, I think he and New 52 Lois should be the Earth-2 versions altered by the Convergence/Flashpoint. And then they get back their memories of Earth-2 and maintain their New 52 ones.
That would just be so awkward.
Why does DC have to make this so complicated?
>>84478524
Eh, i kinda like it. It reminds me a bit of Shin Megami Tensei and i'm an Atlus faggot.
>>84477865
Convergence was lackluster as fuck, so it's a little annoying to see the rather stilted direction it took Post-Crisis Lois and Clark being carried over into the mainline.
>>84478362
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Not to mention it'd fit with Morrison leaning so heavily on the Golden Age for the reboot.
>>84478457
>>84478568
Not to mention that we know that Pre-CoIE Earth-1 Superman was changed into New Earth/Earth-0 Superman after Crisis on Infinite Earths.
So why not the same for Pre-CoIE Earth-2 with Flashpoint? The DCU will always try to correct mistakes like that, like when it tried to make Powergirl an atlantean.
>>84478457
What about the New 52 Earth-2 Superman?
I guess nobody really cares anymore since he died in the first issue and Lois Lane became Red Tornado or something.
>>84478610
Barry thought it was the Speed Force telling him that he needed a partner in the new Flash issue, when it reality it was the DCU itself.
>>84478362 Yeah that should be it not to mention New 52 Superman is a lot like Earth Two Superman so it would make sense.
>>84478625
The current Earth-2 universe, created after Infinite Crisis and 52 is just a mere copy n' paste of the old one. It isn't the real thing.
When PG when there, who's the real Pre-CoIE Earth-2 Power Girl, went to the newly created Earth-2 universe after 52 she met a new PG there, which made her go back to Earth-0 and the JSA.
>>84478671
Oh, and there was another Superman there as well, which surprised her as well.
>>84478625 Just say it was the New 52 Earth Two Universe's way of compensating since it's Superman wasn't in the universe at the time it was altered so it provided itself with another Superman
>>84478752
The current Earth-2 isn't the real deal. I mean, it is, but is like a copy of the real deal. Before Flashpoint there was two Power Girls, one from Earth-0 who was the original Pre-CoIE Earth-2 Power Girl and the new Earth-2 Power Girl.
>>84478808 Well than what was that thing in Convergence with them saying the current New 52 Earth 2 is the original Earth 2 reborn? Was it a retcon or did they just say screw it and put it in anyway?
It is just needlessly convoluted and mostly dumb. If they had the two Supermen working together (and maybe that is what they'll do in a bit) then it might have been appealing, but there's little want in having a Superman who has no connections to any of the heroes in this universe besides Wally. And doing a fucking Reign rehash is not what anyone wanted. Just fucking tell normal good Superman stories. Is that too much to ask?
>>84478965
New 52 Earth-2 is a reborn version of Pre-Flashpoint Earth-2. The Clark and Lois from Pre-COIE Earth Two however are separate and were dead on Earth-0. The theory is just that they were the ones used for New 52 Clark and Lois.
Pardon my ignorance, but I have a question.
I'm not gonna admit to you guys how old I am (compared to you kiddies I'm ancient), but let's just say that I was reading Superman long before the 1986 reboot.
Back then, you had Golden Age Superman hanging out on Earth 2, and "regular" Superman hanging out on Earth 1.
Then came 1986, and the Earth1 Superman I knew was wiped out of existence.
So the only question I have for you youngsters is...is pre-1986 Superman from Earth 1 back in any way, shape, or form, with all the Silver Age continuity "restored" in the sense of not being ignored?
Thanks, bye.
>>84478219
I love how people can read this stuff and be totally 100%, unironically okay with it.
On some level, I envy those people.
>>84479450
I'm as clueless as you, elder Anon. Hell, I thought Zero Hour made pre-1986 Superman and post-1986 Superman into one guy...
>>84479517
I want to stop reading about universes rewriting themselves to suit some creator's ideal of how the backdrop for a story should fit together and just read good comic book stories... but people don't want to write those I guess.
>>84478066
>I thought new Sup's was a major ass
>how to tell someone never read new 52 supes the post
>>84479450
Infinite Crisis was all about that.
The idea is that Pre-CoIE Earth-1 Superman wasn't wiped out. He was changed and transformed into the Post-CoIE New Earth Superman.
His past was different and kept changing because Superboy Prime, the Clark Kent of Pre-CoIE Prime-Earth, kept hitting the reality nexus. So every time Superboy Prime hit the reality nexus in an attempt to escape the place where he was imprisoned in he changed things in the New Earth reality.
But in Infinite Crisis New Earth Superman, now Earth-0 Superman, managed to sort out his past and from it we regained a bunch of Pre-CoIE Earth-1 Superman story elements like Superman's past with the Legion of Super-Heroes, Superman being Superboy in his teens and so on.
>>84479580
I don't blame people. Main Superman book was uneven as fuck, announcing and dropping writers every few months. Most people read Action until Morrison left and then bailed and so never saw him as anything but a self-assured brash young person.
And a lot of his stories were just bogged down by not being about a Superman who was a known quantity to the readers.
DC's Emergency Plan
>just... just bring back shit we already made, Watchmen, Old Supes, anything fuck it
>>84479629
the page i posted was Morrison though in the first book he let himself get fucked up by train to save the occupants but anon doesn't know that because he never gave him a chance
Also while Superman was uneven action comics was solid bogged down by crossovers
>>84479593
>Superman being Superboy in his teens
I don't think it make him publicly Superboy but he did get powers while young again
This is why nobody reads comic books. It's all convoluted confusing crap where nobody stays dead and everything gets reset and there's no reason to be invested ever at all. This is why people watch the movies instead.
>>84479534
>>84479450
>>84479593
I Have a question.
Who cares?
Seriously, who picks up a Superman book and goes "Ugh! I can't be fully invested in this fictional character until I know exactly which version of which fictional universe this fictional character comes from!"?
Like, seriously. Just write superman stories. It's Superman. Born in Kansas. Works at the Daily Planet. Flies and punches shit.
Beyond that, who gives a flying, red-caped turd?
>>84479679
Yeah, but Infinite Earths was all about bringing back elements from the Silver and Bronze age.
>>84479701
continuityfags
>>84479593
Ahhh, cool. Thanks. Sounds like a convoluted mess, but that actually clears it up.
It always kinda bummed me out to think of all the Silver Age mythology I enjoyed as a kid being wiped out and forgotten. I read post-Crisis "Byrne" Superman for a while and eventually dropped comics altogether after Byrne left Supes. I suppose that version of Superman is long gone.
>>84479701
Nah, explanations don't have to be complicated but the way DC is telling the current stories you can't pick up any book about Clark and get what you're talking about. It fucking sucks.
At least New Super-Man had a good start and will deliver on that point. I wish we had a good Clark book too but it will probably be a while.
>>84479642
They tried some new stuff and dropped what didn't work. Not that crazy anon.
>>84479688
>This is why nobody reads comic books
/co/
>>84479688
>This is why nobody reads comic books
>cape comics are the only comics that exist
>>84479745
The only thing from Byrne that's still around is I guess Clark's sense of self? Still thinks of himself primarily as the guy who grew up in Kansas rather than being too caught up in Kryptonian stuff.
>>84479758
>you can't pick up any book about Clark and get what you're talking about. It fucking sucks
That's not true.
>>84479701
Follow-up question:
Why does this multi-universe bullshit always seem to revolve around superheroes?
Like: This universe is the same except Superman is BLACK!
Or This universe is the same except everyone's a copywrite-dodging, lampshade hanging version of Marvel heroes!
Or These are thirty-seven different versions of Superman! All of which can fly, have heat vision, and are in some way affiliated with a version of Lois Lane!
Why can't we have a universe where everything is the same except every third person is actually a wad of tarantulas in an overcoat?
Why can't there be an extraunivers version of Superman who's really just an overweight plumber from Williamsburg named Jeff?
>>84479769
If they had any sense they'd just have new 52 Clark and Lois elope and just write him well. All that they're doing now wasn't necessary. I feel like DC honestly believes people want triangle years shit back when they said they liked post-Crisis Superman.
>>84477996
>>84478011
He messed up. That was the original ending for Crisis on Infinite Earths, so, it's not really the same thing at all, since both Earth-1 and Earth-2 Superman were active up to that point.
>George Perez claimed in a 1994 interview that Chris Claremont, famous for his 17-year run on The Uncanny X-Men, suggested that the Earth-One Superman die killing the Anti-Monitor; since his history had been the one to survive the alteration of history, the new Earth was now without a Superman. In this scenario, the Earth-Two Superman, after considering the fact that his wife and friends are all now gone, would look at the heroes surrounding him and say, "Well, guess I don't need this anymore" and begin to wipe old-age make-up from his face & white hair dye from his temples. He would then explain that he had stopped physically aging in the 1940's when his powers reached their peak. This Superman would then return to Earth with the other heroes and assume his younger counterpart's life. The thrust of the post-Crisis Superman reboot would then be "The Return of the Original Super-Hero," with the Earth-Two Superman learning to live his life as a younger Clark Kent in the modern world.
>>84479809
Tell me which Clark-focused book isn't all about old Superman reintegrating into this new society and dealing with dumb Doomsday and Eradicator rehash shit (please don't tell me you're memeing about Earth One, I might just roll over and die)
>>84479823
i would assume editorial
its easy to write and understand stories where its just a little tweak, even though in idea the multiverse is so we can have all ranges of stories like the one you described.
some one once wrote a comic where batman was a mentally handicapped black kid in a shitty neighborhood.
and it was damn fine
>>84479823
>Why does this multi-universe bullshit always seem to revolve around superheroes?
Super heroes are the focus of the stories, but the differences don't involve only them.
See the original Earth-3, for example
>Earth-Three was considered to be a partially "reverse" Earth and was populated by "opposites" to the primary Earths of the Multiverse; such as the British colonies successfully breaking away from the Empire of United States in the 1700s and President John Wilkes Booth being assassinated by the actor Abraham Lincoln
>>84479688
I feel like Marvel and DC really dropped the ball on their respective reboots, as everything is still convoluted and requires at least some familiarity with everything preceding the reboot to make sense.
The best thing they could do is just hit a true reset. Start all the titles from "scratch" in the sense that Marvel started from scratch in 1962. All the heroes were new to the scene with no prior baggage weighing them down. They could follow the original storylines closely enough to maintain the spirit of what made the heroes popular in the first place, but they were still free to chart their own territory. Post-crisis DC was sort of like that, I guess.
But Marvel is all kinds of fucked-up. Who needs intriguing stories and character development when you can resort to gimmicks like female Thor, black Iron Woman, black Spidey, Asian Hulk, etc? Or shit like killing off Bruce Banner, Capt America, etc? All gimmicks, SJW bullshit, and shock value. They're probably not even worried about making money off their comics anymore, considering them the gateway drug to get people into the cinema where the real money's at.
>>84479916
Holy fuck, what a bad idea. You'd lose all the readers you have now who are at all dissatisfied with anything new you do.
Remember why Ultimate worked? Because it did everything you just said without deleting the old books. Then they ruined that, too.
They can't leave well enough alone. They have to do their multiversal fuckery.
>>84479947
They did the multiverse stuff with Ultimate only after the line was pretty much dead though.
>>84479916
No one wants a reset, just tell good stories. It does not have to be hard.
>>84477936
Yeah, right? Beats me. I'm THRILLED to have the REAL Superman back.
>>84479995
but golden age supers isn't back
>>84479964
That's my point, they run things into the ground, and instead of nutting up and saying "let's try something fun and different independently of what has gone before" they say "let's do another universal rework story that people need to understand to know what the fuck is going on in the comics we're supposedly trying to make easier for them to read."
>>84479995
I may never accept that this guy who sat out major events like Forever Evil is actually supposed to be the "real" Superman. They need to write that he was off-planet during that or something. It's just incomprehensible as is.
>>84479916
I've been saying this for YEARS.
We need to hit reset on everything.
And I don't mean "Oh, here's Superman again! Watch us tell the story of a farmboy from Kansas for the 192,303,392nd time!"
I mean, start COMPLETELY fresh. New characters, new settings, new stories, with zero reference to the old stuff. Just fuckin go for it.
All the "Old guard" can play around in movie and action figure land where they're most successful and profitable, but comic books need to re-become what they were during the Golden Age, and that was a test bed trial-by-fire for new and experimental storytelling ideas and methods.
>>84479745
Just think of John Byrne's run as a result of Superboy Prime retconing shit with his punches.
>>84480040
I feel if they had heroes age normally and retire and new people take the mantle be fine
>>84478249
This shit is so fucking stupid. Why can't it just be about a guy who fights stuff in a silly outfit? Is it really so hard to write something like that without going this far up your own ass?
>>84479916
CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS was a huge mistake.
You have this neat concept that is the multiverse with INFINITE GODDAMN UNIVERSES. You want to start everything from scratch? Just shift the focus to a new universe. No questions ask. Dear readers, we will be now following the adventures of the heroes from Earth-Go-Fuck-Yourself.
Some readers want to still read stories about the Earth-1 heroes? Sure thing, i'll create a small line for that. Earth-2 heroes? Another line for that too. But the man one is still the new one.
>>84479916
You're an idiot, you literally don't need to know anything except the English language to pick up a comic book right now and follow exactly what is happening.
Just like with every other hobby in existence, there are some works made for hardcore fans that use lots of continuity, and most are simple and accessible.
I fucking hate that 90's X-Men has made everyone think that all comics are these ultra convoluted messes. Additionally, the stuff being discussed in this thread is all fanon and stuff gleamed from the stories, not details of the stories themselves. You can read anything from DC with absolutely no knowledge of this shit and have no trouble understanding it, because all that stuff is for hardcore fans.
>>84480066
No, you fucking moron. People read Marvel and DC because they like the Marvel and DC universes. If you want entirely fresh new universes, there are plenty of other comics for you.
>Not just rebooting every 30 years and focusing on a new earth and occasionally revisiting old ones for max story potential
>>84480244
Right?
>>84480244
That's pretty much literally what DC did with CoiE and New 52.
>>84480274
No, they rebooted the old Earth, they didn't created a new one while keeping the old one.
>>84480274I didn't expect someone to point this out that soon
>>84480244
No one likes a reboot, it takes too long to build up universal history and shit again. You can do it but you're mostly just adding problems instead of fixing anything.
>>84480178
And who's to say you won't like the new stuff they come up with?
At the very least, it can't be worse than the shit Marvel's pulling right now
>>84480332
Because you can come up with new stuff without throwing out the old. There's no point to Marvel if they get rid of their universe and characters.
This is why there's stuff like Valiant out there, and previously Wildstorm and Milestone and Image.
Even Marvel has had imprints like Ultimate and New Universe that were similar to what you describe.
>>84480332
The problem is talent and editorial direction not continuity. It is rarely actually continuity that is the issue with anything.
>>84479995
>He thinks Superman was made by John Byrne
>>84480440
>There's no point to Marvel if they get rid of their universe and characters.
I strongly disagree.
In fact, I would posit that the opposite is true; that there's really no point to the stories Marvel writes, so long as it's always the same characters.
After 60 years of the same shit, all the pathos has been drained. The stakes can never be higher or lower, and no character can REALLY do anything new and exciting, except maybe change the color of their skin and/or sexual orientation.
If you keep the same creative teams but force them on new stories, suddenly all creative crutches are gone. There's no more status quo, so there's nothing on which to iterate to create gimmicks that nobody likes. There's no more recognizable faces, so there's no temptation to half-ass it and bank on pre-existing marketability. They're forced to write ACTUAL STORIES now. I can't see how that's a bad thing.
>>84478362
nu 52 superman was the pre flashpoint eradicator. or at least that was the hinting i got from death of superman.
as for lois? dunno
>>84480557
But those creators can just make their own stuff. Like they already do.
Like I said, there's already plenty of outlets for creators to do new things, with other publishers. You work for Marvel so you can work with their characters, and you read Marvel so you can read about their universe. If you don't want that, just read some Image or other creator-owned. I don't understand why you're so insistent that Marvel or DC do this.
The vast, vast majority of stories are self-contained and ignore most continuity anyway. I don't see how these stories lack legitimacy because of being established characters. When you watch a James Bond movie, do you get upset because he hasn't changed from the last movie? Not all stories have to be about character development. Characters can go through small arcs within a story that don't need to carry over into others.
>>84478524
It's not even that complicated. Before the reboot Superman was outside of time and now he's back. It's that simple really
>>84479758
>you can't pick up any book about Clark and get what you're talking about. It fucking sucks.
Yeah you can because any new reader would just assume that this Superman is from another universe like Clark believes himself to be
OP here. It was COIE's original ending, forgive my mistake. The New52 Superman is either Connor or Post-52 Earth-2 Superman, is just my theory. I won't lie that it isn't complicated, but I loved Zero Hour as a kid. Can't wait until Parallax is back again;
>>84481173
The idea of New52 supes being Kal-L and therefor actually the original supes would actually be a pretty cool one.
>>84477865
Wasn't that the original ending to Crisis on Infinite Earths, though?
