>FLASHpoint
>brought about the New 52, the DARKEST stories in recent comic book history
Was this whole deal supposed to be ironic?
>>84451252
>New 52, the DARKEST stories in recent comic book history
So I take it you haven't read any of them.
>>84451392
I've seen enough to know it tries too hard.
>>84451482
But you are wrong, the 2000s were way darker than new52, new52 comics was shit, and the characters were cunts but it wasnt dark.
Also Flashpoint was shit and should had been just an alternative universe, Johns is a hack, and you are a casual
>>84451252
>>84451482
>>84451937
>New 52 was bad
still waiting for this meme to die
>>84452003
Everything about New 52 was a creative failure. If it was successful, they wouldn't be nuking the line trying to reset a half decade's work
>>84452120
it was a financial failure, not a creative failure, dozens of great books came out of it
>>84452183
Whoopdee Damn Doo
>>84452246
yes, good books are a good thing, thanks for agreeing
>>84451252
In fairness, DC retconned it so that the New 52 isn't Flash's fault. Had Barry's restoration of the timeline not been interfered with, he would have restored New Earth to how it was before he altered his past (of course, never mind how Thawne's alterations to Barry's past didn't fuck the universe up somehow). It's now Dr. Manhattan's fault, apparently.
>>84452120
They have done some retconing like bringing back the original Teen Titans with plans to bring back the JSA, but they are not throwing away the entire New 52 universe. They are simply adding these things now to continuity.
>>84452003
If you're a fan of certain characters it was pretty bad
Lots of characters got fucked up or sidelined during it like Atom, Wally West, JSA, Doom Patrol, Metal Men, Lobo,Superman,
>>84452524
>being a characterfag
>>84452260
Good books in one hand, shit in another
See which one gets full first
>>84452340
>DC retconned it so that the New 52 isn't Flash's fault
If he wasn't pissing around in the timestream Dr M wouldn't have been able to mess with it.
>>84452524
Well, they are always winners and losers whenever DC does these continuity shake ups.
The Hawks never recovered from COIE, for example.
>>84452570
you could say that about literally every other era outside of maybe the Bronze Age
>>84452558
>not liking characters
There is literally nothing wrong with having favourite characters.
>>84452558
They barely have any creators worth a damn and they've managed to scarenoff the few they could keep.
Unless you like Geoff Johns there's nothing to like
>>84452606
And funny how comics haven't had good business structure since, duh, the Bronze Age
In what way was having two family members called wally west a good ideab
>>84452624
>They barely have any creators worth a damn
King, Morrison, Rucka, Abnett imo are all worth reading. Superman and Flash are also reading well out of the gates.
>>84452610
of course not, but to get flustered when a new writer takes over and does something you don't like is silly
Abnett may have shit all over Hercules but I still like Hercules
>>84452648
Best of a bad situation.
>>84452648
Too be fair Hal Jordon had a newphew who was also called Hal
>>84452183
Most of the good books were the ones that were already in production during Brightest Day.
The actual new ones were all terrible creatively.
>>84452652
The Flash comic has been mediocre as fuck since the beginning of the Nu52. Superman books too.
>>84452624
King, Orlando, Seeley, Rucka, Priest, and Abnettsometimesare all solid, Ben Percy's started strong on Green Arrow and Teen Titans, Yang's back in his wheelhouse, Giffen on Blue Beetle, even fucking Tynion and Dogfucker managed to put out something decent
>>84452718
explain Vibe, Dial H, Omega Men, Grayson, Gotham Academy, Gotham by Midnight, Dr. Fate, Midnighter, and Prez, then
>>84452578
Yes, but Barry had no say in the matter. As far as we know, Manhattan didn't approach him and say "Hey, Barry, I've got some ideas about reshaping your universe that I think you'd like." and Barry didn't agree with him. While Barry may get some blame for unknowingly drawing Dr. Manhattan's attention, it was ultimately Dr. Manhattan's conscious decision to fuck shit up, not Barry's.
>>84452749
I'm talking about rebirth, maybe I missed something in the thread.
I thought Flash art carried it under Manapul (sp?).
But yeah, new 52 supes was meh, I already like rebirth supes way more.
>>84452758
Barry shouldn't have been running through time to save his mother, he fucked up massively and Dr Manhattan made it worse. I don't really like how Johns always tries to absolve Barry of any wrong doing ever.
>>84452750
>explain Vibe, Dial H, Omega Men, Grayson, Gotham Academy, Gotham by Midnight, Dr. Fate, Midnighter, and Prez, then
See, while DCYou was good, what about the majority of the books? The ones that really damaged certain characters?
Even know the Bat-Family is fucked beyond words. It's fucking sad, specially when the canon was in a really good spot right before the reboot with Batman, Inc.
And Grayson shat all over Spyral.
>>84452806
>Barry shouldn't have been running through time to save his mother, he fucked up massively
In fairness, Barry knew Thawne fucked with the timestream repeatedly with pretty much no problem whatsoever. He fucked up, but there was no way he could have known he was going to fuck up.
>>84452826
>what about the majority of the books?
When have the majority of books ever been good?
It's normally a few standouts in a group of not so great stuff with character specific fans propping up the big books regardless of quality.
>>84452879
>, but there was no way he could have known he was going to fuck up.
Road to Flashpoint shows that he was scared of time travel because of the risk of fucking up. The future Rogues asked him why he didn't time travel directly.
>>84452826
I don't see why you think "majority of books are shit that are damaging characters" is unique to the New 52
>>84452898
The problem is that with the reboot wasn't just a fact of the books being bad, but of them completely ruining certain characters.
I mean, what i always loved about DC were the obscure characters. Sure, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, the big leaguers are fine, but what always stood out for me where the obscure ones who were very charming or weird. The reboot fucked them all up.
The fact that the Creeper now is a suicidal drunk who turns into a Japanese Demon whenever he blacks out and murder tons of people bugs the shit out of me. And like him there are tons of character that were changed in very stupid ways.
>>84452930
The New 52 really did a good damage.
>>84452919
So, how did he fuck up while Thawne didn't? How did Thawne kill Barry's mom, frame Barry's dad for killing Barry's mom, lead toddler Barry's puppy into the path of an oncoming car, strip Barry nude in front of a cop, shove Barry's beloved gerbil up a man's ass, etc. without breaking time?
>>84452971
>but of them completely ruining certain characters.
This is an eternal medium, nothing is permanent. People would have been screaming on this board when Bart became the mopey Flash, but not a few years later we were having some of the best Flash stories again. This stuff is cyclical.
You have to try these weird stories to see what sticks and in the long run the shit gets retconned or ignored.
>>84453003
>The New 52 really did a good damage
I disagree. As someone who always wanted to get into comics but was daunted by the massive history New 52 gave a perfect jumping in point. My mates and I now read a lot and wouldn't have if it wasn't for the slate clear.
>>84453011
>So, how did he fuck up while Thawne didn't?
Both did. But Rebirth seems to have said that it was Barry's massive universe restitching that made it malleable enough for manhattan. Thawne's a pro.
>>84453019
Bart going through a mopey phase is something that can be remedied because the character has a solid foundation.
Nu52 Bart being a fundamental terrorist from the future who killed atheists isn't something that can be changed, because that's what the character is at his core. He can change and be good, but he will always be a fucker that was an edgy shit.
>>84453094
>Nu52 Bart being a fundamental terrorist from the future who killed atheists isn't something that can be changed, because that's what the character is at his core. He can change and be good, but he will always be a fucker that was an edgy shit.
Bart has a time travelling evil clone. You can retconn whatever the fuck with that.
>>84453092
>As someone who always wanted to get into comics but was daunted by the massive history New 52 gave a perfect jumping in point. My mates and I now read a lot and wouldn't have if it wasn't for the slate clear.
That's what relaunches are for. No need for reboot. The reboot only ruined tons of characters. Maybe you don't care because these new versions are the only ones you know, but for the people who knew how they used to be is really irksome. So much so that Rebirth became a necessity.
>>84453130
>Bart has a time travelling evil clone
Let's see. Me? I doubt. DC will continue to try and make Bar Tor work. Look at Nu52 Tim. They're still trying to make it work.
And you're basically asking them to ditch the new version for the old. Even you don't think that the new version can work out.
>>84453143
I don't think you understand just how bad it had gotten before Flashpoint
>>84453143
>That's what relaunches are for. No need for reboot. The reboot only ruined tons of characters. Maybe you don't care because these new versions are the only ones you know
Once I read New 52 I went back and read from the silver age back up. I'm more connected to pre-Flashpoint Wally, Barry, Bart and Supes than their post-Flashpoint counterparts.
>>84452826
You might be literally One of five to hold that view of the Batfamily and Spiral
Batman has been critically and commercially successful since the fist issue of the Nu52
Grayson, Catwoman, Batgirl, and Batwoman have had critically acclaimed runs since the Nu52.
>>84453092
>Both did. But Rebirth seems to have said that it was Barry's massive universe restitching that made it malleable enough for manhattan. Thawne's a pro.
And yet Thawne didn't make a timeline where Barry isn't the Flash, Kal-El rots in a cell, Batman commits murder right and left, Atlantis is at war with Themyscira, Martha Wayne went nuts, Deathstroke is a pirate, and little Bruce Wayne was shot dead in a filthy alley at eight years old. How was the timeline stable enough after his fucking it up that Barry had time to fuck it up himself just by reversing Thawne's changes?
>>84453174
No, I'm saying all of the shit Bar Tor has done can be pinned on Inertia in a 1 shot retconn. You could have a "return of Bart Allen' tier story where he comes in, kicks Bar Tor's (Inertia) ass and suddenly things are dandy.
Nothing is ruined.
>>84453194
/co/ doesn't like Batgirl and SnyderBatbecause they're bad
>>84453174
They literally did the exact fucking thing for Superman.
>>84453220
>How was the timeline stable enough after his fucking it up that Barry had time to fuck it up himself just by reversing Thawne's changes?
Time boom. That's literally the in comic explanation. Barry caused a time boom.
>>84453194
I like Grayson, but i still think that the creative team didn't really understood what Spyral was about or what made it special, and i think that they handled the concept and specially Kathy Kane badly.
The rest... what can i say? I see the new comics as inferior. I'd take Rucka's Catwoman over Nu52 runs, i'd take Steph's Batgirl over Babsgirl runs, i'd take Detective Comics' Batwoman runs over the Nu52 ones.
>>84453259
and Wally
>>84453262
I get that. How did Thawne not create a time boom himself? How did Thawne not fuck shit up on a temporal scale while he was fucking shit up for Barry?
>>84453251
[insert that's like your opinion man gif here]
>>84453232
>>84453259
But you guys agree with me that Bar Tor can't be saved, right? Because that's the argument. That nothing short of bringing the old Bart back can save the mess the Nu52 did with the character.
The same goes for a lot of characters. That's my argument. Nu52 ruined a lot of characters and these versions simple can't be saved. They can't work out. People hate them.
>>84453287
>How did Thawne not create a time boom himself?
It's not explained. But he does canonically have more time travel experience, so you could just put it down to that.
>>84453322
>But you guys agree with me that Bar Tor can't be saved, right
Yeah I do agree with that. But Bart can be saved, what is an example of one that can never be?
>>84453272
Greg Rucka never wrote Catwoman.
And the rest is just option so worthless.
>>84453362
I suppose I'm going to have to.
Damn it, Johns. Couldn't be fucking bothered to explain it, could you?
>>84453389
not that guy but Rucka Batwoman was better than Williams Batwoman
>>84453389
Fuck, Ed Brubaker. I'm always confusing them because of their work together. The same happen with Giffen and DeMatteis. I always mix the funny one with the weird one.
>>84453386
That's it, though. My argument is that the Nu52 versions of the characters that were fucked can't be saved because they were fucked in such a way that nothing good can come out of it.
For example Nu52 Tim. The writers are tying to make him work, but he's just... ugh. I keep hoping for the real Tim to show up, since the Nu52 wasn't even named Timothy originally. That's a cover name.
>>84453322
You save Bar Tor by literally never showing the fucker again.
For fuck sake it time travel bullshit.
Just next Bart time travels back.
Because guess what DC has NO FUTURE.
Thus making a continuity for time travelers is pointless.
>>84453394
Johns is really weak when trying to explain faults of his silver age favourites.
>>84453322
But Tim Drake fixed in three sentences.
Found out Batman's identity
Become Robin(or RR)
Not an orphan.
Done.
>>84453479
Tim Drake was ruined WELL before New 52
>>84453407
Willaims Batwoman is almost a word for word continuation or Rucka's run.
That isn't the Nu52 change that's simply normal creative churn.
>>84453521
Seems that way. This major fucking plot hole just makes Barry look innocent when the story says he's a selfish prick. If anything, this means that Thawne is completely to blame for Flashpoint, and partially, alongside Dr. Manhattan, to blame for what was retconned in during Rebirth, while Barry saved everything that he could.
>>84453502
But what about Bar Tor? That's the argument. Bar Tor can't be saved because he's a shitty character. He's a shitty reboot of Bart Allen.
You're basically agreeing with me.
>>84453533
Nah, Nu52 Tim is a cunt. He tried to out Batman to prove himself smart and when Batman told him to stop he robbed Penguin to make Batman eat his words putting his own family at risk. Then he left Batman blaming him and the Justice League for appearance of young meta-humans playing super-heroes.
>>84453542
There was still hope for the character. Red Robin solo had a few bright spots.
>>84453425
So......
Brubaker's Catwoman cake about by Nuking old continuity.
Selina Kyle was dead, Holly was dead Brubaker and Cooke just looked at that continuity and decided to ignore it.
Which is what happens.
>>84453574
both can be true, anon
Rucka's just a better writer than Williams, and Williams is a better artist than whoever took over for him
>>84453574
Williams Batwoman had no direction, no momentum and the stories were dull as fuck. The only good thing about it was the art.
>>84453621
Nope just like Brubaker and Cooke you ignore continuity and write what you want.
And that is how Tim is gonna go.
>>84453011
>>84453092
>>84453220
That's because Thawne can't fuck up the timeline no matter what, he has kind of a different speed force(a REVERSE speed force if you will) and that makes him not able to create the "time booms" that he talks about in Flashpoint
It's canon, google it
>>84453679
I'd rather the real Slim Shady showed up and told Nu52 Tim to fuck off. Or if they just rewrote Nu52 Tim Drake past.
>>84453691
Alright, I'll accept that explanation, although that really should have been clarified in the event itself (say, right when Thawne calls Barry out for being a selfish prick [like that sociopath has any moral high ground to stand on] and fucking up time).
>>84453691
>That's because Thawne can't fuck up the timeline no matter what
It's only during Flashpoint that he becomes a time paradox though. It's only during Rebirth that he begins generating negative speedforce. By that stage he has already done a lot of history changing.
>>84453691
So then...
IT'S REVERSE SPEED FORCE I AIN'T GOTTA EXPLAIN SHIT
>>84452640
Do you listen to oldies am radio as well and long for the good old days where men were men and these GOD DAMN KIDS WEREN'T RUNNING ALL OVER MY LAWNNNNNNNN.....?
seriously you sound like a butthurt little faggot
>>84453362
>But you guys agree with me that Bar Tor can't be saved, right? Because that's the argument. That nothing short of bringing the old Bart back can save the mess the Nu52 did with the character.
>The same goes for a lot of characters. That's my argument. Nu52 ruined a lot of characters and these versions simple can't be saved. They can't work out. People hate them.
The explanation they gave was a complete joke.
>>84453521
The reboot was supposedly forced on Johns, Flashpoint, and therefore Barry.It wasn't supposed to end that way originally. I don't think it's wrong to absolve the character of wrongdoing that was fmandated by Didio and friends last second.(Not that Johns is 100% clean)
