Is anyone else kind of tired of recent Disney movies having a surprise twist villain? Wreck-It Ralph, Frozen, Big Hero 6, and Zootopia all had them. It's getting a little tiresome because now people are just going to start expecting every movie they do to have a surprise villain and the supposed villain we see being a fake-out.
Ye. They're overusing the trope a bit. Zootopia's was really obvious about halfway through the film though.
I guess it's because they want to prove a point that sometimes the person you least expect would be a bad person. However, it will reach a point where the audience would be like "He/She is too nice. They must be the real villain!"
The alternative would be making someone so evil that people have no choice but to guess that they are the villain (and they'd be right). What we need are more complex Disney villains.
>>84417940
I still can't get over the fabric textures in this movie.
Expecting Disney to make complex villains is a losing battle, they had too many decades of hero vs the literal personification of evil.
>>84418534
You know who was a great villain? Lord Shen from Kung Fu Panda 2. Not Disney, but man he was original!
I think Wreck-It Ralph had the best twist. I'm usually really good at picking those up but here it caught me by surprise.
Frozen and Zootopia could have done a better job with it.
But with Big Hero 6 it was painfully obvious.
Hans would've been an excellent king.
It's flimsy ass writing for sure. In order to have a good story the conflict needs to be legitimate. If the villain is just some inexplicable exception who corrupts the whole system, it's not a real conflict because the solution is obvious (kill the villain) and comes with no cost. You get to have the cake and eat it too.
>>84418740
He was pure evil and really enjoyable.
I want more of that,
>>84418858
Really he was a pretty good ruler for his short term. His main concern was always the people. His most evil actions really felt shoehorned in so that people would forget that Elsa was the real villain.
>>84418840
Yeah, Big Hero 6 is the only one of the four listed that I saw coming a mile away.
It also deprives Disney of one of the best moments in their movies: the villain song / scene where evil is celebrated as being awesome and good is dumb.
>>84418964
He wasn't 'pure evil', that's retarded. Yes he was a terrible person but he didn't do evil for shits and giggles. He had a bunch of causes for his behavior. He wanted to impress his parents, he became bitter when they rejected him, he was mad about his inadequacy at martial arts, he became paranoid about the prophecy because on some level he believed he was destined for karmic retribution for his sins and so on. One of the obvious clues to Shen not being pure evil is that he kept the goat (?) soothsayer in the palace acting as his conscience for all those years.
>>84417940
Wreck-It Ralph doesn't have a surprise twist villain. Even if King Candy wasn't Turbo he'd still be a villain.
>>84418534
An alternate version of Frozen where Hans isn't evil would be much more interesting than the actual movie.
>>84419065
To be fair, Love is An Open Door is pretty much a villain song in retrospect.
>>84419065
I'm so happy LMM confirmed we're getting an actual villain song in Moana.
Hans was the only actual surprise. Rest were telegraphed as shit.
>>84417940
Turbo did it first.
Turbo did it best.
>>84417940
Double villain fakeout. Have the surprise "twist" villain actually be a scapegoat for the first villain who gets away with all of it.
>>84418969
Hans is & was never really evil. He was cruel to Anna after she made him feel like an ass from wooing her & was going to kill Elsa to end the winter & gain the kingdom. Regicide to save many is far from evil.
>>84418972
You know what they could've done to pull us? Had Tadashi be Yokai.
>>84420103
Hans was more of a fuck you dumbasses to the audience who had no reason to doubt his motives & plenty to support his goodness.
>>84417940
I thought Wreck it Ralph pulled it off well but in Frozen and and Big Hero 6 is was too obvious and pretty lame.
>>84419174
I remember reading in some creator commentary that the Soothsayer basically raised him, as his parents had little time for him while running the kingdom.
The wolves also used to be palace guards whom Shen befriended. Wolf captain dude was apparently his best bro growing up. Which makes Shen's casual murder of him all the more harsh. They had a lot more planned for the development of Shen's backstory but they had to cut it in editing.
>>84418913
The Turbo twist wasn't all that flimsy. It was a surprise, but that the literal point of it all.
Before his reveal, he was just a term for rogue gaming characters, a cautionary tale to those who try to overstep their boundaries as Ralph was doing.
With Frozen and Zootopia, it was definitely just "let's surprise people with a villain after leading the audience to believe this other character was the villain", while in Big Hero 6 the whole thing with Callahan was just weak due to how he decides on a revenge scheme because one of his students made a potential weapon (even though all of them had something that could be weaponized).
>>84417940
Twist villains are a trend I'm sick of. The biggest problem with them is that because all of the effort is put on the twist, the villain himself is not memorable or interesting.
People try so hard to defend it, but Iron Man 3's villain was bad because they replaced a vibrant, larger-than-life villain that was different from Tony's other enemies last minute with a villain with no personality beyond "I'm jealous of Tony," who hit the exact same mold as the villains before him. They sacrificed the chance to have a memorable villain by going for a big twist. I'd rather be entertained than remember a movie for a bad decision.
>>84420975
For what purpose though? Unless he was after revenge for the death of his parents, he had no reason turning evil. And the movie pretty much confirmed Hiro and his parents died in some kind of mundane accident like a car crash.
>>84418621
You don't need complex to be good, though. Jafar, Ursula, Hades, Ratigan, Maleficent , Scar, Mcleech, Sykes, and others were hardly complex, but they were great because of their personalities and the performances of the voice actors. If you stole Jafar's screen time to a fake out villain, then leave us with half of his screen time for it, the movie would have lost a lot of its charm.
>>84419251
Elsa as a reluctant villain would've been more fascinating. Like how the original plan for HTTYD2 was to make Hiccup's mom the antagonist, which would've been so much better than Drago.
>>84421233
But those films were not quite deep. A complex villain compliments deep lore.
>>84421178
>People try so hard to defend it, but Iron Man 3's villain was bad because they replaced a vibrant, larger-than-life villain that was different from Tony's other enemies last minute with a villain with no personality
The exact same can be said about The Dark Knight Rises.
>>84420131
Turbo's twist was at least early enough that he got a personality beyond being bad.
>>84421513
>Implying I didn't dislike that too
I used IM3 because for one, it's defended heavily, and second, it's Disney technically.
I liked TDKR a lot, but once the twist happened it really did start to fall apart. They should have left Bane as Rah's excommunicated son, which while very different from the comics, would've kept the plot tighter and been better than not giving such a prominent character a story.
>>84421392
Frozen wasn't that complex.
>>84421654
More complex than most Disney Princess films. It has potential to really be expanded upon (as long as they don't go down the nature powers route).
I'm tired of Disney movies, that includes Marvel garbage as well.
The only movies that did it well were WiR and Zootopia, especially WiR since Turbo was basically batshit crazy and hijacked a (presumably) NPC and ruined another character's life just to be in the spotlight.
>>84421630
I wasn't implying that, I was just reinforcing your point.
Mother Gothel was a fantastic villain.
>>84417940
Yes.
Wreck-It Ralph did the best because it was foreshadowed well and King Candy/Turbo had the charisma and menace to back it up.
Disney really went overboard due to Frozen twist shocking people a little too well even if they was poorly hinted at, Big Hero 6 and Zootopia twist villain were obvious from the very start.
Moana's seems to going back to the traditional Disney villain, I heard it's was a Lava Goddess who wants to wipe out humans seeing them as a pest to Mother Earth.
>>84417940
"Since when was Disney under the impression they make "good" twist villains?"
They haven't met GOAT of them. pic related.
>>84421751
Disney current villain problem is obvious twist villains that aren't foreshadowed or have a bulleyes on their heads saying "I'M EVIL ALL ALONG!"
Marvel Cinematic villains problems is that they usually disposable rich white assholes or bland undramatic doomsday bringers.
>>84422512
All he had was the twist. Everything after was shit.
>>84419543
It's not. The only line that changes with the context of him being a villain is the "find my own place" line, which isn't even sinister in retrospect. The rest is standard love song stuff.
>>84420131
Really? I don't remember there being at hints that Turbo was actually the Candy King. I never saw the connection between the two. If we knew that the game got fucked up around the time Turbo disappeared then that would've made sense.
>>84422609
No he became stale when he went condom mode and after. But when he did all that mind fucking on Momo and Hitsugaya, was glorious.
He's basically what Hans tried to do/accomplish, but succeed where as hans fail to.
>>84422610
>Hans: "That you-"
>Anna: "And I-"
>Both: "Were just meant to beee."
Was a subtle one.
>>84422724
We got at least one hint that Vanellope was actually the candy monarch and that King Candy had usurped her.
>You sure seem to be a fan of pink..
>Salmon! The decor is obviously salmon..
King Candy was defensive when somebody drew attention to the fact that "his" castle looked like it'd been designed for a girly princess.
Also it's hard to spot and more of an easter egg than a hint, but when King Candy goes to the core of the game or whatever it's called and there are all those floating green icon things, one of them is Turbo's gocart.
There may be a few more. King Candy's design having the same silhouette shape as Turbo is kind of a little hint too.
>>84422101
Oh, I apologize then.
>>84418969
His most evil action was being such an unnecessarily massive dick to Anna as she lay dying, which was slapped in because otherwise some people might have felt Anna was in the wrong to fall for another man while still being engaged to Hans.
The true love Disney romance couple must not seem like an immoral choice, therefore Hans has to be so resoundingly assholish everyone would forget that he was still the perfect responsible fiance when Anna went and got interested in a new man despite their wonderful moonlight duet
>>84423408
It's cool, bro.
>>84417940
Frozen didn't need a villain at all desu
>>84423932
They were okay with cucking a likable character in one of their direct to dvd sequels, though.
>>84421047
I doubted him during first viewing though. I didn't think he'd turn evil, I thought it would turn out that he doesn't really love Anna and falls for Elsa while Anna falls for Kristoff - I thought that the 12 older brothers was a massive "needs to marry money" red flag and his expressions during LIAOD were sort of obviously forced and fake, especially during "that's what I was gonna say", the proposal and engagement announcement
>>84424040
Direct to dvd sequels are different, and besides pocahontas was separated from Smith "permanently" already at the first Movie so it was always gonna end badly
>>84418534
That was one of my favourite things about Mystery Incorporated. The whole show, like every Scooby Doo show, they have the villain be the person you least expect. So in one episode when they encounter the obvious villain and Velma says it must be him they all accuse her of profiling, despite how obviously evil he is.
>>84418534
I know its /a/ but the villain in Erased was set up pretty neatly. He was so obviously the villain that he ended up taking everyone by suprise because he HAD to be a red herring.
>>84417940
Hans isnt a villain hes just a political douchebag.
>>84424040
People are still butthurt over that, ignoring how flat of a character Pocahontas & John Smith were or how it restored some historical accuracy. Besides, the heart wants what it wants.
>>84424226
The 12 older brothers is not too unusual when Ariel had 6 older sisters.
Hans's expressions were feigned, but it can be up to interpretation.
So, virtually no foreshadowing.
>>84423320
The castle's pink hues seem uncharacteristic to Vanellope though. Plus, it was funny to have King Candy love the color salmon.
It would take a good eye to find the kart easter egg in first viewing & the similar silhouettes seems more coincidental than actually suggestive.
>>84422934
It's a duet. It would not sound right if each said you & you.
>>84427453
Plus Rolfe was a very charming gentleman. I think Pocahontas made the right choice.
>>84429261
It doesn't sound right when they both say "Anna" and "Anna" either, you just need to pay close attention to realize it's out of place. The meaning is important as well as the rhythm.
>>84417940
Animated movies aren't allowed to have real villains anymore, so they have to have a "nice character" turn out to be evil.
It's partly because they don't want kids to see being evil as fun by having somebody enjoy doing bad, and partly because they want to encourage the idea that anyone can anyone and everyone is secretly evil so you shouldn't trust anybody
>>84421748
Ahahahahaaaaaa
Frozen was insipid as fuck
>>84422610
The very title changes its meaning. To Anna, it means that if you love someone you shouldn't shut them out. To Hans, Anna's love is an open door through which he can get in.
Love is an open door thus holds the two main ingredients to a good villain song: the villain's motivation and his plan.
>>84429893
I still would have liked it more if Hans wasn't actually a villain. Don't get me wrong, all the little details hinting that he's evil are pretty clever. It's just for a movie trying so hard to break it's tradition of love at first sight and having Elsa not turn evil from her exile, they still follow their other villain theme right on the nose.
Since all of Hans's actions could have been explained just by a guy who was overall a good guy, thought he loved Anna but it wasn't true love, tried to give Elsa a chance to reverse the winter but found out she couldn't, then had to make the decision to try to kill Elsa to spare a kingdom from freezing to death.
I just think it would have tied the whole movie together in it's more realistic characterization by just saying "There doesn't have to be a grand evil villain in your way, sometime good people can have good intentions that are still counter to your goals." Make him an antagonist that's not a villain.
>>84418740
>>84418964
>>84419174
>MUH PARENTS
>>84419174
Shen had really good characterization. He's twisted and evil but they still let him have small moments where you can see he could have been something else like sparing the Soothsayer, expressing a little sorrow at times, and genuinely asking how Po was able to do what he can't.
>>84430529
I don't think I've seen an animated kids film with a more complex villain, honestly. At least not one I felt pity for while also hating. KFP2 is a great movie all around
>>84418913
When has that ever been the case? In Zootopia, there was prejudice before the night howlers even came up.
With a straight villain, "defeat the villain ends the conflict" is even more the case.
>>84422610
Its not exactly obvious in hindsight but it is there if you look.
There's a lot of Hans sneaking around trying to grab Anna and whatnot
The song ends with Anna backed against a cliff
>>84430795
Also you do get the impression that Hans is just telling Anna what she wants to hear
>>84430870
That one is pretty well shown during the song. The one that comes to mind is something like
"We finish eachother's..."
"Sandwitches!"
"..... That's what I was going to say!"
He's clearly just leading her on then agreeing to sound like they match.
>>84417940
>Wreck-It Ralph
The King was already a scheming asshole and the movie showed some video game characters can just be assholes for no reason, so being Turbo was just icing.
THANK YOU. This has been driving me nuts.
What happened to the days when they made the villain obvious, like with Scar or Facilier?
>>84431092
Yeah
He was obvisuly a villan it's just that his identity was a twist.
Op is right with the others though
>>84417940
Big Hero 6 was obvious. Not as obvious as Tangled or Princess & The Frog, mind you, but still fairly obvious to anyone who has seen movies before.
Wreck-It Ralph was pretty obvious as well. The exact nature and motivation of the villain remains well hidden, but who is the Evil Genius (or the Mad Hatter) is fairly obvious towards the beginning and shown outright halfway through. So the only twist is exactly who it is and how deep it all runs.
Zootopia was handled really well. Even with repeat viewings, it's more about how the protagonists misassume they have the full information that leads to a "false" villain. Zootopia and Frozen are really the only ones which fall into this category of yours.
Well, we can see if Moana does a proper old-time villain. Given the setup, it seems likely. And if not, then you have some good choices outside Disney: Dreamworks produces the occasional good hit, Blue Sky seems to be doing well, and Laika is really good with an upcoming Kubo movie. Disney is no longer the only kid on the block.
>>84431026
>>84430870
>>84430795
Those subtle hints can be interpreted in a myriad of directions.
"Find my own place" is very similar to what Aladdin sings in the "One Jump Ahead" reprise.
Surprising Anna by picking her up from behind is romantic, not sneaky in-context.
While it is clear to us that Hans was saying & doing whatever Anna wanted him to say & do, most audience members did not. Disney Princes tend to say things that make eyes roll.
But, the point is not too much that there were not some really hidden hints, but the fact the narrative outright contradicted itself to fuck over the audience. People would have been much more suspicious of Hans if they did not include the shot of him grinning underneath the rowboat; it's really dishonest to viewers. Then we had Hans take really good care of the kingdom, Hans forming a search party, &, oh yeah, SAVING THE FUCKING QUEEN FROM DYING AT THE HANDS OF YOUR ENEMIES WHEN YOUR PLAN NEEDED HER DEAD TO SUCCEED. I mean, why would Hans do that? It completely muddies his plan- does he really think Elsa would be an easy murder now that we know she has magic powers?
>>84431592
>Surprising Anna by picking her up from behind is romantic, not sneaky in-context.
There's also the one bits where Anna is popping out of the doors and he desperately grabs for her.
>>84417940
It's getting obnoxious. Wreck-It Ralph was perfect; it made sense with the story and was a legit good twist. Frozen came out of fucking no where and was essentially just a twist for the sake of having a twist. On the other hand BH6 was ridiculously obvious. Zootopia was somewhere in the middle of Frozen and BH6.
I think they've gone from wanting to subvert common expectations to just finding it easier writing a twist villain than a good villain who was bad all along.
>>84431659
He also sounds really bitter at the for 2 years bit
>>84421176
>Callahan was just weak due to how he decides on a revenge scheme because one of his students made a potential weapon (even though all of them had something that could be weaponized).
Fucking this. It means he whipped up his revenge plan the moment he saw Hiro's invention, which is strange considering it would take a ton of preparations to send the school into flames so quickly and successfully fake his own death. Either that or he was planning his revenge for years with the intent to rely on some random invention to help him accomplish it.
>>84431592
He needed the winter to end so the kingdom he was after wouldn't die. After getting her alive he tries to talk her into lifting the winter. When she can't, that's when he changes to murder as the B plan.
>>84431757
I'd just assumed that the set up the whole fair with the intention of stealing the most promising inventions. It's just that Hiro's was the obvious best out of the bunch, enough that he didn't need to bother with the others.
>>84431659
>>84431699
But neither of these details foreshadow Hans's ulterior motive! They can be interpreted multiple ways. Foreshadowing raises eyebrows, but the average viewer dismisses the peculiarity on grounds that it is just a passing line. Think of the twists in Over the Garden Wall, particularly the one involving Beatrice. We went along with the "bluebird code" as she was a talking bluebird in a magical world & never questioned why she was so depressed when she was on the boat, but everything clicked in the end. None of the four most recent WDAS features had foreshadowing that cohesive.
>>84431770
Hans knew that Elsa couldn't do shit about the winter. If she could & was willing to stop the winter, she would have stopped it. No way would somebody pit the kingdom in eternal winter unless if the culprit either intentionally did it out of spite or accidentally. It was safe to assume that taking out Elsa would take out the winter with her as she was definitely the cause of it all. Hans could have killed two birds with one inaction, but no, for whatever retarded reason he developed a hero complex & saved the witch.
>>84431770
If he saves her life and talks her into lifting the winter, then he has really good PR with the kingdom and can assassinate her quietly through poison and still look like the best candidate for king rather than some guy who just hopped in the other day and woo'd the queen's sister.
If Elsa can't/doesn't lift the winter, then he can claim the lesser glory of being the guy who saved the kingdom from winter by killing her and can claim it was even out motivation to avenge Anna's death from freezing. The A plan is safer and makes him look less suspicious so it's best to do it first, the B plan isn't as good but it still involves not letting someone else get all the glory of saving the kingdom.
>>84431906
It worked because of people's expectations. People expected a romantic interest for Anna because she was a Disney princess, and a shared lead of the film. People expected a romantic interest because Anna was singing about it at the beginning of the movie. People expect it because, in the case of Disney princes/princesses, the prince can get unusually close and familiar in just a short amount of time to save on storytelling time.
Looking back now, some of Hans' actions can look particularly creepy - especially how he clearly led Anna on and just agreed with her completely to win over her trust. But pointing out that as being creepy kind of points out some strangeness in earlier Disney films. Are Prince Philip and Snow White's Prince creeps for going after their girls without having even met them? Is Cinderella's Prince a creep for ignoring every other person at the ball and instead focusing on Cinderella - pretty much what Hans did, even going so far as to offer a marriage to her if he could find her again?
I think I lost my point there.
>>84432100
No one actually knew how the winter worked. That's the whole reason Anna ran off to find Elsa. Even Elsa didn't know that the kingdom was still frozen over after she left. For all anyone knew, killing Elsa could mean that the winter would NEVER end because no one would be able to remove it.
It makes far more sense to talk to her first, then if for any reason she doesn't lift the winter THEN you kill her to see if that works. You can't take back the murder so if you do it first and you're wrong then the kingdom's just fucked.
>>84432131
You know I never thought about that, retroactively applying Hans's underhandedness to past characters.
Though I think you can consider it just a case of most stories having two Anna's, both sides falling in love for shallow reasons but not actually intending to be underhanded.
>>84432131
Just because it adverted the public's expectations of a Disney Princess film does not excuse outright deception in writing!
>>84432177
Also his plan required actually marrying into the family. Elsa died and it did stop all the ice magic, Anna would be the sole queen and probably not in the mood for marriage for some time. The way things plan out he makes it more plausible that Anna pledged wedding vows to him before dieing, made him officially King, then can officially charge Elsa with treason to have her executed. Letting her die in the mountains would just take longer and make it look like he failed his mission of only capturing her, letting soldiers under his own charge disobey direct orders.
>>84432378
If Elsa died*
>>84417940
Nothing wrong with the concept, but it's been seriously over-used in the last few years.
>>84432177
No one, not even Elsa, understood the nature of her powers, but an observer can conclude that Elsa is the cause of the winter. There is no prophecy or curse, simply just wherever Elsa goes she takes the weather with her & leaves a trail of ice & snow. If the weather was created intentionally, there would be no reasoning with the person who inflicted it. If the winter was created by accident, then why would one believe Elsa would know how to end it when she does not know how she made it?
>>84431592
>shot of him grinning underneath the rowboat
Could be me seeing what I want to see, but I really think that look was him just being relieved he found such an amazingly gullible sucker to con. Right from when he meets Anna he finds a princess that is clearly thirsty as hell and ready to dive right into his trap. I think before that he might have been a little nervous that wooing either sister would be hard, but Anna gave him a guaranteed backup plan if seducing Elsa wouldn't work.
>>84432378
Hans had Anna spreading her legs. Another family tragedy would have pushed the mourning orphan into the arms of her last remaining loved one.
>>84432555
That grin was not a sinister grin like during Hans's reveal scene; Hans knew what he was doing was underhanded & a similar sneer would have been fitting for the meet-cute scene.
>>84432131
At least some of the other Disney princes might be versions of Hans that just happened to succeed in their plan.
>>84432583
It was also his job to keep Elsa safe. Having her die in a mission lead by him isn't the most romantic thing. It also means that Anna needs to mysteriously die which brings suspicion onto himself. The movie way, he can show that one of the deaths was due to Elsa and then use the legal process to kill Elsa off after the fact.
>>84432715
Not possible with Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel, Belle, Tiana, or Rapunzel. The Prince in Snow White & the Seven Dwarfs was dumb as Snow White & Aladdin was a golddigger with a heart of gold.
>>84431906
Oh I'm not saying it was effective foreshadowing you would never have noticed on a first watch.
But it's still there
>>84432756
No, Hans needed Anna alive to tie him to the throne. And it's not blood on his hands either when the Weselton guards clearly went rogue.
>>84432583
>>84432756
And arguing that Hans's idea is bad doesn't make you right. The point is only that the reason they give in the movie is plausible and in line with his final goal. Saying that letting Elsa die would have worked better only says that Hans overcomplicated his plan. Your argument is that there's no reason Hans would have wanted Elsa to live at that moment but the reasons given are perfectly valid.
>>84432839
I can concede to that. None of the hints were conclusively foreshadowing & worse is how the narrative opposed character motivation.
>>84432865
see
>>84432917
Your argument only works if there is NO reason Hans would want her alive. An overcomplicated but still viable plan is still a valid reason.
>>84432917
You guys are getting confused- Anna still needs to be alive. Any objective reason for Hans to keep Elsa alive can be easily dismissed. Anna was squirting vaginal discharge just at the sight of a man; she was going to marry Hans unless if Hans turned into a jerk.
>>84432949
Hans is one to sieze opportunity when it presents itself. Hans jumped at every opportunity before & after his reveal except for allowing Elsa to be assassinated at the ice palace. It doesn't make any sense considering how much leaping to conclusions Hans made (proposing to Anna, leaving Anna to die without confirming her death, etc.).
>>84433123
Let's say you're right on that point. I still stand by the notion that he wanted to see if Elsa could be captured and talked down in case the winter had to be specifically dispelled. Killing Elsa carried the risk that the only person capable of removing the storm would be dead and no one, not Anna, not even Elsa herself really knew how the storm worked.
>>84433123
>>84433241
Hans had no idea where Anna was at that point, nor if she was still alive. For all he knew, she had wandered off and froze to death. Capturing Elsa could've given him an edge in dealing with her. He'd be the only one with access and he could "work closely" with Elsa to try to resolve things.
Elsa would be fairly distraught with Anna gone, and could've even officially left Hans in charge while running out to find Anna again.
He didn't need to do that, of course, because Anna showed up and in a perfect position to put him in the royal family. But capturing Elsa made a whole lot more sense than murdering the reigning queen - even on accident - on a rescue mission.
>>84433241
1. Hans knew that Elsa was terrified of her powers at the coronation ball & during the siege. He knew Elsa did not mean any of the chaos she espoused & knew that she was mortified by her magic. How could one expect Elsa to undo the crisis she accodentally created when she herself was scared shitless?
2. Hans had no issue with attempting a formal execution of Elsa later when it could have been surmised before the ice palace siege that Elsa did not know how to stop the storm.
>>84422724
http://klipd.com/watch/wreckit-ralph/king-candy-scene
There was this entire scene.
>>84433464
If both Anna & Elsa perished, Hans would have the strongest claim to the throne as far Arendelle's monarchial rules are concerned (seriously, no regent, no extended families, no Parliament). The people, being constituents of the rather incompetent government, would have rallied around Hans given his leadership performance during Arendelle's massive crisis.
>>84434159
Hans would have a very, very weak claim to Arendelle in that case. He'd been there less than a week in total, was best known for supporting Anna, and had successfully managed to get both rulers to the throne dead within a 24 hour span. I doubt it would be rallying more than desperation, and that would be one shaky as hell throne afterwards.
By contrast, saying he was married to Anna and then royally executing Elsa would've given him an uncontested line to the throne. Working with Elsa to go find Anna (killed by her sister's winter) and having Elsa run into an accident would make him quite sympathetic. Running into Anna and supporting her in talks with Elsa would've solidified his title, if things had worked out that way. Hell, even meeting up with Anna and then failing to avoid an Elsa assassination would've been better.
But Hans failing at the one initiative that he took in a leadership position? That would've been pretty terrible. He needed to get Elsa back safe and alive, for his own reputation.
>>84434362
Marrying Anna would have prevented Elsa from receiving a formal execution. Elsa would still be queen & much harder to murder knowing her powers. Elsa dead before Anna returned was risky, but again Hans siezes opportunity when it arises.
It was clear from the beginning King Candy was the bad guy.The only real twist was his real identity
>>84434362
>By contrast, saying he was married to Anna and then royally executing Elsa would've given him an uncontested line to the throne.
I know of no monarchies in existence where someone can rule because they married into the royal family. The husband of the Queen of England is Prince Philip. I cannot be King because he has no blood claim to the throne. I've never heard of a monarchy that doesn't require a blood line. If Elsa dies, the crown passes to any child she has, if there is no child, it passes to her closest living blood relative, which would be Anna. The same holds true for Ann, child or closest blood relative. Most likely a distant second or third cousin.
Interestingly, within the fan-theory that connects Frozen and Tangled where Rapunzel is Elsa/Anna's cousin, she would probably have been next in line after Anna for the crown of Arendelle. Though being the primary heir to the crown of another country might negate that.
>>84434861
This. Most people recognized that things were far from dandy around King Candy. He, a ruler, promoted the ostracism of Vanellope & chased her down for baking a kart. He was pretty condescending towards Ralph at first meeting & threw Felix into the fungeon.
>>84434159
That part of the movie always felt odd to me did they just not have anybody acting as regent
>>84434890
C'mon now, this is a movie with talking snowmen & nobody bothering to check on their princess when her bethroved claims she's dead. Rational rules don't exist.
>>84435038
Or for that matter, checking Anna's body after somebody claims she died.
This film was ridden with plot holes & narrative blindness.
>>84435063
>>84435163
They let the princess ride out alone, into the wilderness, unescorted, inappropriately garbed, and with no provisions. If she hadn't happened upon that sauna, she would have frozen to death.
>>84435282
Maybe that ties back into the regent thing they have been operating fine for a decade or so without a ruler so they don't auctualy particularly care
Pardon me for budding in on a thread which is already 117 posts long.
>>84434861
This anon gets it.
>>84434890
You sort of have a point there, Anon. You aren't wrong -- just kind of not entirely right either. There are such things as non-blood-derived monarchs such as King Leopold of Denmark who was a democratically elected liege.
We are not privy to all of the details of his plan, just the princess-murdering parts. We also are not read a copy of the Arendale constitution if there even is such a thing. My best guess is that Hans was planning to marry one sister or the other, spend a year unifying the two kingdoms, push through a law which solidifies his right to rule if he becomes the only surviving member of the Arendale royal family, and then do his lady killer thing. Elsa's revelation of supernatural powers forced him to improvise and move a lot faster.
>>84435038
A regent character would make logical sense, but it would make terrible story sense. What would be the point of having such a character in the plot? A regent would provide no source of tension for the protagonists nor a means for their story arcs to develop. A regent would only be there to make the plot murkier. Also, the cast was already sort of large for a kid's movie, so characters should have been cut, not added.
>>84431872
I think it was pretty spur of the moment. He probably got excited when he saw the prototype bots Hiro had for his brawler robot, and then the microbots at the fair pretty much got his murder boner ragingly erect and he set the place on fire.
This whole thing does illustrate another flaw in the story; why the fuck were all the inventions just LEFT at the expo center? You'd think it'd be like any other fair; you fucking take your shit home or at least take it to a storage facility in another part of the campus.
>>84434861
Exactly. I find it hilarious how so many people try to claim "Oh, I totally knew he was Turbo." from the get go even though we don't learn WHO Turbo (was) is until Felix is telling Calhoun what the phrase "Going Turbo" means amongst gaming characters. Beyond that, nobody could have doubted he was a villain considering how aggressive he gets with Venellope the moment he sees her trying to enter the races.
>>84435404
The king and queen only died 3 years before the story began.
>>84435730
Hm good point
>>84435038
>>84435574
I think I remember reading that one of the drafts of the scripts had a regent character, but they discarded it because it just made the story more confusing.
>>84422724
>>84423320
Other hints include Turbos voice in his game, and the fact he recognized Ralph, when no one else in Sugar Rush did. A less obvious one is how out-of-place King Candys design is, hinting he's an outsider.
>>84435574
>We also are not read a copy of the Arendale constitution
I would totally read that
>A regent character would make logical sense, but it would make terrible story sense.
True
>the cast was already sort of large for a kid's movie
It wasent that large
>>84435707
I remember whispering to my friend in the movie "What if King Candy IS Turbo" about halfway through the movie, then laughed it off thinking "Nah, Disney wouldn't do that." (at the time, expectations towards Disneys CGI films was kind of low)
You can only imagine my face a few scenes later.
>>84435805
Him recognizing Ralph could have meant he had left the game to visit others or hang out in the bar. The voice does make it a bit hard to deny, but the mannerisms and tone are different enough that one could just assume "they shared the same VA" which isn't uncommon in animation. As for his KC's design, it wasn't exactly out of place, but it was the odd-man-out being the only male racer (or at least the only obviously male one).
>>84419065
Dat filename
What exactly happened to Hans?
What was his fate?
>>84417940
I'll bet that they'll make fun of themselves overusing the trope thatthe protagonist WAS THE SUPERVILLAIN ALL ALONG
>>84417940
>>84437380
I'm just waiting for one of their movies to do the complete opposite of this.
>Halfway through Frozen 2 they reveal that the villain's right hand man has been working for Elsa the whole time.
Hans was BS
He wasn't even supposed to be a badguy at first.
And they leave him alive. Talk about awkward.
>>84437590
So it's another Anna: the Movie?
>>84437595
He gets the hunk pass.
>>84437208
Watch the Spring Fever short.
presumably his older brothers are treating him even MORE like shit than before.
>>84437208
Prison for attempted regicide I would imagine.
>>84437208
He went back to home. In the short where Elsa is drunk he appears shoveling manure in a stable.
>>84437590
I wanna hear non-cringe ideas for a Frozen 2
>>84437654
WHY is he alive and out of prison? That's so awkward
>>84437665
Remember "The Tigger Movie," that Winnie-the-Pooh movie where Tigger finally grasps the magnitude of being the only one of his kind, becomes consumed by loneliness, and sets off on a quest to find other creatures like him?
Just remake that movie, but in the Frozen universe, and with Elsa in place of Tigger.
>>84437750
Would kind of go against the entire premise of movie 1, but whatever.
>>84423320
>King Candy was defensive when somebody drew attention to the fact that "his" castle looked like it'd been designed for a girly princess.
But that has nothing to do with Turbo at all. It does show that the guy was clearly hiding something and the bad guy but I never saw the connection between the two because we never knew was Turbo was like since we only got a flashback.
I need to check it out sometime again and look for his cart.
>>84435805
>the fact he recognized Ralph, when no one else in Sugar Rush did
Ralph was from an old famous game. Everyone knew who he was.
>A less obvious one is how out-of-place King Candys design is, hinting he's an outsider.
Of course we knew that he was possibly an outsider but there were hardly any hints that he was Turbo.
>>84438875
>Ralph was from an old famous game. Everyone knew who he was.
Everyone except the guys from Sugar Rush, because the Sugar Russians were a very new game, I think was the anon's point. None of the kids had any idea who Ralph was, nor did the guards. King Candy was the only person in Sugar Rush that seemed to know him. Which WAS kind of suspicious. It seemed, at first, a really blatant hint towards the fact that King Candy probably had some kind of down low contact with other games for his own benefit. Course, then it turns out that's not it, he's just from another game himself.
>>84437695
Well, he's proud and powerhungry. Demoting him to shoveling manure and doing odd jobs for the servants probably hurts his ego more than prison. Brothers are good at hitting you where it will frustrate you most.
>>84438926
Well that's still not surprising. You would expect the leader of a game to actually go out and find out about those things. Then again when he said "You're not going Turbo, are you?" everyone seemed to have reacted like they knew what he was talking about. And didn't they wipe the minds of the other game characters as well?
>>84438926
>because the Sugar Russians were a very new game
You mean Sugar Rush. And pretty sure it's mentioned somewhere that the cart was installed some time ago, but still considered new like the Hero's Duty cart.
>>84439040
"Sugar Russians" is a nickname /co/ had for the inhabitants of the Sugar Rush game.
>>84435163
Well but on the other hand, Anna had just shown up with completely white hair, too walk to properly walk on her own and so unnaturally cold people feel it instantly on touching her even despite the winter clothes and their layers. Anna was very clearly at death's door from Elsa's curse, so for someone to go "yeah she died" was expected.
Also you have to remember that the dignitaries had told Hans to leave Anna to die alone in the wild, and stay and rule Arendelle instead of attempting a second search and rescue. Her dying was just fine with them.
>>84433737
>Hans had no issue with attempting a formal execution of Elsa later
Yes, after Anna had shown up dying from Elsa's magic, saying that Elsa, her sister and only living relative, cursed her to death and omitting completely that it was by accident
>>84418621
Probably Frollo was the best and most complex. He had a solid motivation for everything. Hating Gypsies is pretty damn logical, and keeping a cripple as a slave as his morality pet because he honestly does consider himself a man of God is a great foil to that. Also feeling lust for the first time is good enough reason to make him question everything and resolve to destroy what he perceived to be a source of sin. He's a lot like Salieri from Amadeus, imo.
And dear god I can listen to tony Jay talk for hours.
>>84434861
Pretty Much, though I nearly bought his bullshit when he said about Vanellope.
>>84420946
What about the part were he said the original plan was get married and kill Elsa after the honeymoon?
Best Disney villain right here
>>84417940
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
>>84418534
The world needs less Hans and more Judge Doom
>>84441028
His original plan was to marry Elsa, rule by her side and kill no-one.
When it became clear that Elsa wasn't entertaining any suitors at all, rather than go back home empty-handed he changed the plan on the fly and shifted his sights to Anna, the first-in-line, and apparently "figured" that he could stage an accident or something so that Anna would become the one on the throne once they'd been married.
His end goal was marrying into the throne, either by directly marrying the girl sitting on it, or marrying the spare and removing the heir from the throne somehow.
However, the original plan involved no killing, just golddigging.
>>84431757
>>84431872
>>84435629
We are on /co/ guys, Assume you have a revenge boner and then you see what is basically a no battery needed lantern ring? Of course you are going to steal that shit and get your murder lust going
>>84417940
Wreck it Ralph's twist was good
Frozen's is fucking stupid
Big Hero 6 and Zootopia are both obvious as fuck and are okay
>>84435629
>why they left the inventions inside.
Maybe it was a multi day fair?
>>84436029
Rancis had dialog though. King Candy sticks out as a Ward Kimball-looking old dude in a game populated by anime children.
>>84441046
>John Silver
>Villain
If anything the only genuine villain in the movie was Scroop.
>>84441046
>John Silver
>Villain
If anything the only genuine villain in the movie was Scroop.
>MFW he and Jim's relationship was pretty much Rapunzel and Gothel if it was actually done well rather than saying "fuck it. Let's just make her a lame female version of Frollo ."
>>84441411
Well really both their motivations is just to get filthy stinking rich, which is exactly the same motivation for the heros.
>>84434890
>The husband of the Queen of England is Prince Philip. I cannot be King because he has no blood claim to the throne
> I cannot be King
I always thought Prince Philip would be the type to browse 4chan. Looks like I'm right.
>>84442678
Philip looks like a damn Lich sometimes
>>84437695
Diplomatic immunity.
>>84435629
Presumably there was some sort of security.
>>84442729
What's the point of being royalty if you don't get the bathe in the blood of children to keep you alive longer?
Holy shit this thread just made me realize how well-written Wreck it Ralph's villain really is. There's a context and a purpose for it, so even within the rule of Chekhov's gun, it still serves a purpose, of which it is to explain the fate of glitches and closed machines. It doesn't stand out much at all, allowing for the audience to forget about Turbo but remember the dangers Vanellope is in, thereby executing the twist in a smart, cohesive advantage to the story.