Hey, /co/ Im just a dude with an ideas, dreams and other pointless shit like that. I'm working on a superhero team book and was just wondering if there is anything I should avoid or strive for my narrative.
When it comes to consistency? Strive for the benis.
Just remember it's a visual medium and you need to take a lot of things into consideration when making up a page. Don't be afraid to dedicate panels with no text to help with the pacing, treat it more like a movie then a book. Think of a film and how you would lay it out a scene as a comic to understand how people use visuals to help tell the story.
Thanks anon I'll take that into consideration B)
I don't know if I have any great tips.
Since you're writing a team book, make sure each character feels unique. Also, don't "coddle" your characters -- if you need to make them a bit weirder or crazier or whatever to make them distinct, then do it.
>>84364798
Eehhhhhh.
"Treat it more like a movie" is not good advice, IMO. A comic is a comic; whatever that means, it certainly implies that a comic is *not* a movie, not a regular literature book, not anything else -- a comic is a comic.
First of all get this on your head: You are not a comicbook writer, you are a writter who pens comics. Unless you can write a prose novel you will not have the bone to write a damn comic.
>>84364957
>all writing is the same
hush
>>84364925
I mean from a visual aspect, just look at a film like Night of the Hunter, it relies heavily on visuals and pauses on them, that is easily adaptable to the comic page and even vise versa, Darren Aronofsky has said he got visual inspiration from the comics like from those of Jaime Hernandez, there's also storyboards directors use to help them figure how they will shoot scenes which are basically comics. They are both visual mediums and share a lot of similarities when it comes to storytelling unless you're talking more abstract comics.
>>84364925
I'm making it one of my priorities to make each character distinguishable, also define coddling a bit more I'm very curious.
>>84364957
Dully noted B)
>>84365062
I've never really put visuals into consideration, I'll look into it more, thanks :^)
>>84365057
OP asked about "narrative".
The only difference between a comic story and a novel story is the presentation and the format in which you convey that story.
But if you don't have a handle on how to treat your narrative in any other form of writing then you won't do much with comic books, except possibly imitate other comic books poorly, on the basis that they're comic books.
Check out some of these books
>>84365434
>]
I own McClouds 'Making Comics' and O'Neil's Writing comics. I've had my eyes on the two Eisner books for a while. Thank you for the recommendations. B)
Bump for others to reference
>>84365242
Sorry for replying to this "three hougs lateg", but:
I would define "coddling" as getting so attached to (a specific version of) a character, that you feel uncomfortable making them do interesting things for the sake of plot. It can happen at various times in scripting, but it's usually the result of thinking you have the endgame figured out and, thus, of trying to take the simplest/most boring route to said endgame. If your stories aren't working, then you most likely have to break down and tweak your characters first.
Of course, you can go too far by not caring about your characters at all -- you *do* actually need to develop them and all that jazz. It's a balancing act, between making sure they have a fulfilling arc and making sure they're creating interesting dynamics of all types.
>>84367889
Ah okay thats some damn good advice, thanks B)
Bumparoo
>>84365339
>Form of writing
There's a difference between storytelling and writing, anon. Writing comics and novels is as different as novels and fire stories.
As someone who has written multiple full scripts that "worked" in theory, here's some advice.
>Find a panel layout you like and stick with it. Alterations can always be made. I find 3x3 (previously used), 2x4 (the one I'm no using), and 4x4 to be effective.
>Speak all of the dialog aloud after you've put in on paper.
>25-30 words for a small panel, 40-60 words large panel. Try as hard as you can to never exceed these numbers.
>If you can plot it, know what page will be on the right/left.
>If building a universe, a recap/credits slide at the beginning of the issue is helpful.
>Sketch the panels with stick figures. If you can't do with it with stick figures, don't ask an artist to draw it.
>AS THE WRITER, YOU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT! That said, your story can be garbage, but you'd still be right.
>Be consistent. If you're going to curse, don't use the bleeps and go crazy. If you're going to use sound effects, keep at it and use it when necessary. Same with captions.
Also this youtube channel may help
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYJAToPH5GSGShP7Yoc3jsA/videos
>>84373500
>If building a universe, a recap/credits slide at the beginning of the issue is helpful.
Can you clarify on this if its not too much to ask for, but this is all really solid advice, thank you :^)
bump for reference
>>84374493
Before you get to the first page, some comics have a page that has a brief blurb either about the state of affairs in the comic/previous issue. Page for reference. Short sweet and to the point.
>>84375764
Sorry, pic didn't get attached.
>>84373500
That's some good advice man thanks.
Posting panel layouts for inspiration.
2x4 grid in action.
>Added benefit is that it can easily be altered to the 4x4.
>Benefits widescreen approach.
>4-6 panels is the sweet spot for number of panels per page.
3x3 Secret Avengers.
>Benefit is that a lot of content can be fit into the page.
>Drawback is that unless you sacrifice the other two remaining panels per row, landscapes and big shots are a little harder to pull off.
>Very easy to control the pacing if you know what you're doing.
>Lots of room for creativity with layout.
>I personally find it a hassle.
>>84364719
For fight scenes, ignore cape comics entirely and read manga instead. Pay close attention to how fights are drawn, and how the artists communicate speed, movement, strength, and power. It's more than just speedlines and blurred limbs. Always consider the environment in which the characters are fighting.
>>84375988
4x4 in all it's glory.
>Only people off the top of my head that used this are Frank Miller and the person who illustrated Edison Rex.
>Amount of customization dwarfs 3x3.
>Sacrifice so much space per indivdiual panel.
>Almost a necessity to sketch the page to see if it works.
>Many of the advantages/disadvantages of 4x4 are the same as the 3x, just magnified with the addition of more panels.
>Although not the most creative page, I feel the provided sample shows a pretty good look of what its capable of.
Here's more advice because I feel like dishing it out. When using a rule set (like the 2x4) for example, and decide to emphasize the wide panel for each row (4 panels total), be smart with it. These panels are used for 3 reasons.
>1. Wide landscape shot.
>2. Big action shot.
>3. Too much text to fit in a single panel.
That said, don't waste your artists fucking time by having repeat panels. Posting a big offender right here.
>>84375782
>>84375828
>>84375903
>>84375962
>>84375988
>>84376092
Jesus Christ its like you came out of a book. The fight scene bit was really helpful thank you so much
>>84375988
To completley eliminate all western comics is a jaded/close minded view. While manga is more suited towards motion/speed, to saw that western media contributes nothing is ludicrious.
>Pic from Secret Avengers vol. 1 #18
>Weirdly I think this issue follows a 4x6 layout that masquerades as a 3x3.
>>84364719
>Im just a dude with an ideas, dreams and other pointless shit like that
You just described literally every person on the planet.
What sets you apart from everyone else? What do you have to offer that the thousands of others in your position don't?
Another comic quirk to think about. Some writers love using wide panels because they tend to create a more cinematic experience. That said, they tend to rob the page of panels and subsequently constrain what can be put on the page. To get around this, some writers/artists favor using just wide-screen shots in the same way you use regular panels (these would just be smaller vertically than horizontally). The effect is that is eases the reading experience and creates a unique feel all its own (reading straight from top to bottom).
>Kev Walker used this to great effect in Jeff Parker's Thunderbolts.
>Page for reference (Issue 144 I think).
>This is something I thought about implementing in my comic but still have second thoughts on it.
>Hexagonal god bullet
Sounds like rad Mario comic about church of Bill, the Hexagonal bullet of all Bullet Bills.
Story Telling No-No
>Splash pages can be used to enhance the story.
>That said, some writers use them lazily and more of an excuse to put an obscene amount of text on page.
>Bendis once did an issue entirely of splash pages. Art by JRJ.
>If you do an entire issue of splashes, you're writing either needs to be on point or your art needs to phonemenal.
>Page for reference as a bad/wasted page.
>>84364719
If it's capes make its silver age as fuck
>>84376321
Eh, I'd have to agree with the other poster.
Western comics objectively suck with action. Not all of them, but probably 99.9999% of them. Even your example isn't that great since the action isn't clear (henchmen fights, a staple of western comics, are actually a rarity in manga -- and to the degree that they're in eastern comics, they're done in interesting ways).
There *are* some good Western comics that show action well, but they tend to be heavily inspired by what manga does.
The key thing -- regardless of how many panels/pages you use, regardless of color vs monochrome, impact lines vs not -- is that action scenes NEED to have dramatic weight to them. You need to be able to take any given panel, isolate it, and still make the audience able to say "OH MY GOD WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT?" or something very similar to that.
I think >>84375988 and >>84376013 highlight how manga can naturally have stronger fight scene. In general, there's so much weight on good drama within those fights. Sure, it does sometimes lead to cliches (internal monologue within fights; saying the name of the move; etc.), but even with those tropes, people still enjoy the action.
But really, like almost all writing, it really boils down to suspense and pacing (which are rarely obvious elements of a scene).
Story Telling Tool
>At some point in a lot of writers career, they get the idea to do a "silent" issue that are carried entirely by the artwork.
>These issues are effective in establishing tone and are most often used to highlight tragedy. The other reason they're used to emphasize a particular sequence of events that you'll be along the ride for (Ultimate Spider-Man issue in the Ultimatum Arc, Bendis's Daredevil early issue).
>I feel like this page does exactly what it's supposed to. It's a quiet moment between two characters that love each other very much. Neither say a word, but their actions speak volumes about each of them.
>>84364719
Visualization is always important. Imagine yourself in the world you're creating and just describe it from the smallest details to the biggest.
>>84376842
>but probably 99.9999% of them
And 128% of all statistics are made up on the spot with no reference or research.
>>84376092
I'm no expert so my observation may be inaccurate but I'm getting the impression from this layout that due to the density of panels you can inject a cut like the scene of the blacked out landscape or the cardiograph and because the bulk of the page is still the main scenes between Bruce and Clark it feels more like a brief flash than a sudden cut.
Hard to explain and justify really but to convey the point through comparison I imagine if this were done on a 3x3 the "length of time", if you will, cutting to those scenes would feel somewhat longer if it were 2/9ths instead of 2/14ths of the events illustrated.
>>84364747
I'm a lower than average intelligence. However USM brought me into comics,and the characters were somewhat relatable to me. I believe he's a good writer, despite all the flak.
>>84365434
Scott McCloud is fantastic for art in general too. He opened my mind about drawing with that first book. That along with Betty Edwards book. Helped me step up my abilities.
>>84365434
Replace o neil's book with bendis.
I know that sounds weird, but trust me on this. Bendis' book is great.
>>84378687
Nah, I think you are Benis himself shilling his comics.
>>84375962
That sixth panel doesn't convey any sense of motion.
>>84378901
I think the dilemma is it's supposed to be the reaction to the failure after the action. The in between got cut.
So any aspiring comic creators out there: You prefer the Alan Moore-style "Write descriptions so detailed you may as well do an actual novel" scriptwriting or Warren Ellis-style "Just a sentence will do and have faith in the artist" writing? Or Stan Lee-style "write a paragraph and get the artist to make 20 pages out of that" writing?
>>84379526
Tend to do a mix of one and two. Some scenes requires more description, especially when establishing characters and locals. Some just require a sentence or two.
>>84373500
what do you mean 2X4 panel?
>>84379832
I'm guessing 2 columns, 4 rows, as seen in >>84375903 if you cut the widescreen panels in half.
>>84376665
Utau became Arin.
>>84376861
I have to admit that richard's fingers crawling around the ball are a bit silly. Wouldn't posing the hand be enough to get the message?
>>84379526
I would describe the scene more or less detailed while doing a storyboard myself of some of the most important scenes.
>>84364719
What the fuck were they thinking making dream shared between the universes instead of giving each universe it's own dream
>>84379881
>4x4=8
I'm a fucking idiot.
