It's easier to learn how to write than to learn how to draw.
>>84223008
- Andrew Hussie, creator of Homestuck
>>84223008
Well yeah. Duh. Writing a comic is way easier than drawing one.
That's why artists get paid more than writers. They do most of the work.
I'd imagine yes. especially in the context of comics which is essentially explain your vision to 5he artist the collaborate until you feel it succeeds. Stan Lee's method was rough outlines of a story and allow creative freedom of the artist.
>>84223008
yeah
Whatever you say, Neil sempai.
Eh, I'd disagree.
With drawing, you can (pretty easily) monitor your progress and get instant/obvious feedback from your own eyes and others'. The result is that most artists who practice for 1-2 years are demonstrably better than they were at the start. And if you, as an artist, actually put forth good effort into going outside your comfort zone, looking at new ways to draw, and
Writing is different, though. Sure, anyone can write something, but unless you've had practice, it's almost a guarantee that your writing will be crap in your first few stories. Even worse, though, is that it's difficult to get useful feedback -- 99% of the time, no one wants to read your stuff, and the difference in the 1% is that your readers/critics will have their own agendas. Self-feedback is just as difficult, as you're *much* more likely to either overrate or underrate your writing. So, once you reach a level where your writing isn't out-and-out awful, it'll be nigh impossible to get a good feel for how to get better -- and regardless of what people say about subjectivity/objectivity, you can always objectively advance your skill.
In a word, drawing is "easier" in that it's more of an effort-in-effort-out kind of deal: if you put the work in, push your limits, and try to improve, then you'll probably see results. The same is technically true for writing, but it's more difficult to self-reflect or get feedback in general.
Nigga you only think learning to read and write is easy because you (probably) learned all the rules and shit of English when you were barely old enough to remember. Drawing, on the other hand, isn't really taken seriously until high school, and at that point it seems super hard because you haven't spent your whole life so far already doing it, like you have with reading and writing.
Here's a question: If an adult who doesn't know how to draw or understand english is tasked with writing and drawing a professional level comic for english speaking audiences, which is easier to learn? Decent drawing or fluent writing? Why?
>>84223008
It's easier to jack offor at home than to go out seeking a stranger to bang
>>84223008
It's easier to get high when you smoke weed than getting high by finding extinct herbs
>>84223008
It's easier to get fat than get fit
>>84223008
no it isn't
source: I can draw
>>84223008
I'm an artist and writing is extremely difficult for me.
>>84229117
>>84229270
And how much time have you practised typing and writing stories? In context of how much you've practised anatomy and composition.
>>84223008
No. Most artists are shit writers for a reason. Even Disney artists struggle to write. With, art, you can doodle fucking anything and it's still appealing art. With writing, everything you do needs a purpose, everything you write could be revised, it's much harder to practice in general with writing. But with art, I can do a thousand drawings of cute cats and it's fine. They can even be doodle quality, no one is going to say, "Your doodle needs more structure", they'll probably just accept it as "muh style" and find it appealing. Like Simon's Cat.
In art, you can trace something to learn the structure and then do it freehand, there's not really an equivalent for writing. "Learning techniques" are much more limited for writing, whereas art, there are hundreds to thousands of ways to break something down and learn it.
And an experienced writer will almost ALWAYS need to revise their work. A revised artist can draw a pose really well first try pretty consistently because muscle memory allows for it. Writing doesn't have hand muscle memory, it's all mental. Your first draft is almost always crap, no matter how many years of experience. That isn't the same for drawing a running pose an artist has done a million times. Not saying artists don't revise their work, but it's easier to become consistent at drawing.
Only bad writers think writing is easy. IE: Andrew Hussie.
>>84226224
I know exactly what you mean.
>>84229302
I dabbled in writing since my teens and dabbled in drawing since childhood. I had a novel and a few other stories in the works for a few years of but I never managed to make something coherent out of it.
I happened to take drawing seriously quite late, I could see the results of studying, I kept growing in skill and right now I can say what is it that I'm lacking, what I need to improve. I couldn't ever feel the same about writing, it's just hard and frustrating and it never worked for me. My stories always feel weak at some point or another.
a single sentence can make or break a paragraph. an entire chapter can be devoted towards building up that one, critical sentence that clinches everything.
a single line or brushstroke in art is only even half as critical in certain styles that revolve round using as few strokes as possible.
>>84229426
The technical aspects of writing are very accessible. It's the content that is so difficult to work out.
A lot of people aren't aware how shit they are at writing. Or don't realize it takes years to be passable at it. That said, having written a few hundred thousand words and edited even more over 5 years, I think other things can be a heavier load. I struggle more learning art now than I ever did while learning to write. And as a graphics programmer/game programmer, that by far exceeds both writing and art as being difficult and mentally draining.
When I stare at writing and art with knowledge of what goes into the mental process of creating "good" art or writing, it's too much of comparing apples and oranges. Art requires ridiculous muscle memory and visualization skills, writing requires a rather nebulous "sense of story telling", wit, and a mastery of language.
Interestingly, I'm an artist who has tested my writing out for a couple of potential comic scripts and got feedback from bother writers and artists. Generally, my stories were liked, I changed them based on the feedback I got (though to get some feedback I had to wait weeks because ain't no one gots time to read shit). One of my writer friends said I actually seem to be able to define characters well with little information, and am good at making sure characters don't just act as props. Taking the feedback I got, I did some more drafts and reception to the stories improved by a lot. Most of my issues were things like spelling and grammar mistakes, and not being economic with the number of panels per page, and how many pages I made it, which were rectified with a bit more good feedback.
Writing isn't really my interest though. The praise I got was nice, and a couple told me that I could probably be great if I practiced, but I don't really have the desire to do so. I didn't find it as gratifying as drawing and think I work better as an artist in collaboration with another who does the actual authoring while we both put ourselves and our minds to the story.
Without writers, artists wouldn't be worth shit.
Writing is a real artform, artists are just a bunch of self-important, flaky, dramawhore tools that real people have to tolerate and indulge if you want to make visual adaption of the story.
>>84229319
>In art, you can trace something to learn the structure and then do it freehand, there's not really an equivalent for writing.
Using the The Hero's Journey as a template for all your scripts comes to mind.
>>84230638
>Writing is a real artform, artists are just a bunch of self-important, flaky, dramawhore tools
Did you miss the pic of Neil Gaiman in OP? Doesn't come more arrogant and self-important than him and he's a writer.
Surely it just depends on what kind of person you are.
I know people who are really good artists but can't write for shit, because they're obviously more geared to think visually.
I'm apparently a good writer (though I don't see it myself, that's what people tell me) but I can't draw at all.
>>84226224
>>84229062
>>84229319
>>84229363
>>84229991
>>84230135
>>84230638
>ITT shit amateur writers desperate to justify their place in a visual medium where writing is the least important part of the process
>>84230638
Are you saying that art can't be good outside of writing?
Have you ever been to an art gallery, anon?
>>84230790
Hey now, Neil seems like a cool guy by all accounts
>>84230872
Couldn't come up with something more devastating and clever, Mr. Writer?
>>84230852
why do you think we often have those marvel hate threads you dummy
because of all the pisspoor writing
I'd post that one page of Whor with Titania but I don't have it on me atm
>>84230890
I mean if you think we don't need good writing in comics and other mediums, I can't really understand what kind of media you actually would enjoy
>>84223008
Writers are essentially deadweight in most visual arts projects, like comics and cartoons. Ask any artist and they'll tell you just how awful and worthless they are.
Chris Sanders did a whole story book for internal circulation among Disney artists in the 80s, all about how frustrating it was to try an deal with writers during the art process because they just get in the way:
http://www.cartoonbrew.com/ideas-commentary/chris-sanders-explained-problems-with-the-industry-in-1989-46614.html
And both are easier to learn than playing a musical instrument.
>>84230852
>implying that the most important part of a comic isn't entirely subjective
Some comics have mediocre art but a great story to pull them through
In fact, I'd say that more people are more likely to appreciate a comic with good writing and forgettable art than mind-blowing art and an OK story
>>84230872
>Okay (person)
>SJW wife
You know, for an alleged writer you're not very clever on the put-downs.
>>84230852
good bait
>>84230954
>okay person
nigga just leave
>>84230790
Don't you trash on my husbandu
>>84230940
I'm gonna post Erik Larsen's open letter to all "comic book writers" that he sent to Comic Buyer's Guide in the 90s.
http://members.tripod.com/fantom_dragonfan/namewh.html
Is it really so hard to accept we need both good writing and art to make a quality comic or cartoon?
Really dummies?
>>84223134
Easier?
No.
Less time consuming?
Yes.
I'm a comics writer and my artist will tell you that writing is hard. I don't think it's hard myself because I have a natural gift for the pen but that's just me. I can write an entire first draft of an issue of our comic in the time it takes him to draw one page. Same amount of effort per minute spent between the both of us, he just spends more minutes doing his end of the work.
People will probably greentext me because they are mental midgets who cannot possibly comprehend the nuance and pageantry of writing, but again, mental midgets. Their opinions are worthless.
>>84230790
In every visualart involving product Neil Gaiman has been involved in, he has been the important player.
Of all the comics and etc. he has done, everyone remembers his name, no one remembers any of the random schmucks that did the pictures. They are all interchangeable, irrelevant.
Neil is what made the material worthwhile and is what made the material sell.
That's the power of writing.
A good story without pictures will sell. (It's called a book)
A comic with good art but no story won't. It'll be complete and utter shit.
Writing is where the true power is, the true art.
>>84230995
Mike, you ignorant slut.
Well, there he goes again. Mike W. Barr wrote a similar letter in DC Comics Shop Talk and l still disagree with it. At DC, until pretty recently, the writer *did* get the same royalty as the penciller and that is grossly unfair.
Consider that most writers write considerably more than a comic book a month, and many do so while holding down a full-time job as an editor. Most artists can barely do a comic book a month. Many aren't *that* fast, and if they inked their own work as well -- there wouldn't be many monthly comics, that's for sure.
The inequality in pay that Mike mentions is a joke when the time it takes to produce said work, is considered. If l drew a comic book in the time it takes a "real" writer like Mike Barr to write it, it'd be a pretty sorry-looking comic book to look at. The fact that most artists spend 10 to 12 hours a day plus most weekends every single month to produce what a writer who labors over his work can produce in a week shows where the real inequality lies.
(continued)
>>84230954
>He didn't read past Act 5
Oh you sweet Summer child
>>84231013
As for the writer being the only one who begins with a blank page, that's most often not the case. A look at any of the many comics out there will show you where the writer's looking: at other comics! As much as artists get belittled for swiping, it's wonder more writers don't get the same grief. Most of the stories are recycled from previous issues and recent movies. It's been years since l read any real stories that require the writer to do any real research other than thumbing through his collection to find out what The Scorpion did last time so he can simply rewrite the same tired plot again and again. Batman hasn't been a detective in decades; a good punch to the nose has replaced any real investigative work on his part. Is it any wonder that artists are waking up and deciding to do it themselves? Our point is a simple one: We're saying to the Mike Barrs of the world that *we don't need you* and, more than that, *we don't want you*.
I overheard an inker moaning because the artist whose work he'd been inking for years suddenly decided to start inking himself. He didn't see thatthe penciller may be looking for more creative control or that he's gotten bored just pencilling and needed a creative change to give his work more vitality. The inker may even feel smubbed that maybe the penciller might not be that fond of his inking or at least have grown tired of it. He saw it another way: He wants all the money, is how he saw it.
(continued)
>>84230998
>nuanc and pageantry of writing
lmao, not in comics.
Even the best comic authors are incredibly mediocre prose authors. OP pic related.
>>84230852
>>84230940
>>84230995
>artists buttmad that their perfect flawless creative vision that was totally 100% perfect because they're geniuses was destroyed by someone who actually understands story structure
>>84231024
Mike may be feeling the same way -- as may others. They're becoming obsolete. What bothers me more, though, is that Mike dosen't consider that maybe the artist-writer has something to say. Maybe he can't create working with a writer who's happy to rehash old stories and bring back that old villain for his 30th bout with the hero. Who knows how many Silver Surfers, Demons, New Gods, Deathloks, Ambush Bugs, Cables, Shatterstars, Ferals, Elektras, Mr, As, Ronins, Shrapnels, Termanuses, Alpha Flights, and many others aren't being created, because artists are being overshadowed by lazy writers?
l know that when l'm illustrating a story by most writers l'll get the same thing that writer's been churning out for the last 15 years -- no suprises -- the *same* thing. Meanwhile, l'm getting better, introducing new characters and concepts and coming up with stuff guys like him can and will rehash for years come while all the while complaining about guys like me.
Mike mentions that he feels he should get some art back (even though he never actually *had* the physical piece of art in the first place). In the letter in DC's Shop Talk Mike says it's unfair that the artist gets back pages to sell and that all the writer gets to keep is his scripts, and there's no market for them. Well, why not? Why can't a writer sell his plots and scripts that were the beginning of the story in the first place? Certainly the mountain of fans wanting to break into the business could use them as a guide on how to do it.
(continued)
>>84231038
Most writers work on computers and could print out countless copies. Sure, they probably won't sell for the price of some original art (although much art, it should be pointed out, dosen't sell even from top guys in the field, and the bulk of art out there is fairly undesirable and dirt cheap) -- they do have the advantage of being able to run off as many copies as they can move.
There's something else Mike may not consider: Artists are getting so tired of so little original thought in writing that they *won't* work with many of them any more. Those artists would rather do any other comic book where they can write and draw the work than work with another "real" writer any more.
Editors know this and they also know that a well-drawn comic book with so-so writing will always sell better than a well-written comic book with so-so art, simply because the reader dosen't read it before buying it; he can only look at it. How would Mike possibly control this? If it's a choice between keeping a bad (or simply uninspired) writer and not having a decent artist stick around or giving the comic book to that same artist and having him stay around and try to pump life into the series?
(continued)
>>84230964
>ArtistDoesTheWriting.jpg
Dear lord...
>>84231045
A writer who's good, whom artists and fans support will always find good, talented guys to work with because they'll seek him or her out. There are still many artists who have no desire to write and many who do but would still be more than willing to draw somebody else's stories if they liked their writing.
More artists writing won't spell the end of good comics, just as it didn't when Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko started doing all their own scripting. What it may mean is that fewer mediocre writers will find themselves with work or decent artists to work with -- but then the repetitous, rehashed, reworked hackwork of these tired writers is likely to drag this industry down, anyway.
(continued)
>>84231030
>>84230852
Stop the console wars you fags
>>84231056
It's really kind of an eye-opener to walk around the offices at Marvel and DC. Editors are forever griping about how badly other editors write, yet are continuing to give that person plenty of work. Writer-artists are getting talked down and up from either side of editors' mouths, and old-time writers are making unreasonable demands and ultimatums on silly things that nobody cares about.
It's sure nice to see more editors who are really trying to work with people to produce a better product and fewer trying to do favors for each other so that they can get more work for themselves in the process.
When a kid comes up to me at a show and wants a break as a writer, l always give them the same advice" "Learn to draw -- or get a job as an editor."
END.
>>84231056
>More artists writing won't spell the end of good comics
Empirical evidence (Skottie Young et. al.) disagrees.
>>84231054
It's the same thing that *often happens when Actors think they can write a script: you're left with something that might look good but if you actually read/listen to it, it's a pile of shit.
>>84231005
>A comic with good art but no story won't. It'll be complete and utter shit.
Good comic book artists uses different techniques to create emotion, movement, sense of time, which will create a story on its own. A story doesn't have to be written in letters to be told.
Pic related. Gon. A comic that's completely wordless.
And if comic art won't tell a story it's bad comic art.
>>84230997
You don't really need art, books have been around for centuries.
>>84231076
A fair point
>>84230790
>Gaiman
>Arrogant
What?
>http://www.avclub.com/article/john-kricfalusi-13702
>You should put quotes around "writers," because they're not real writers. People who write cartoons are not real writers. They'd all rather be writing movies or sitcoms, or something like that, but they're not good enough. These are people who can't construct a sentence, let alone a plot.
He's not wrong.
>>84231094
>What?
Charging a public library $40,000 just to make a personal appearance seems pretty arrogant.
>>84231114
He can't just go to every library that wants him to visit, he's a busy man.
>>84231105
>John K
Oh yes he is
>>84231024
>We're saying to the Mike Barrs of the world that *we don't need you* and, more than that, *we don't want you*.
Well this kind of thinking really worked out great for places like, oh, RUSSIA.
Working class once again going around killing the brains.
>>84231105
This is the same guy who hates pretty much every cartoon that isn't his so, I take these words with a grain of salt.
>>84231130
>Well this kind of thinking really worked out great for places like, oh, RUSSIA.
>Working class once again going around killing the brains.
Larsen wrote that letter before or during the Image split, I think. He had his name withheld at the time for professional reasons but it was eventually revealed to be him.
To Larsen's credit, though, he never stopped writing and drawing Savage Dragon and it's still being published and selling copies 20-something years later.
So he walks the walk.
>>84231025
Writing comics and writing prose is completely different. Comics require more storytelling skills than writing.
>>84231171
>Comics require more storytelling skills than writing.
Oh the storytelling skills comic book writers must master!
>PAGE 1-13
>Characters FIGHT!
>Note to artist: Make it BIG and EPIC!
Clearly, the writer is the backbone of the storytelling aspect of comics. What would the artists do without them?
>>84231105
Yet they are still better than any "cartoonist".
Really makes you think.
>>84231118
He could still charge less. Maybe even do it for free?
>>84231193
Most modern artists don't even do the layout. People who think artists are important are still stuck in Ditko and Kirby era.
>>84231193
you are very sheltered
this is certain
>>84230995
>>84231013
>>84231024
>>84231038
>>84231045
>>84231056
>>84231063
Savage Dragon is garbage, though, Erik.
>>84223008
>Gaiman
>Writing
Neil Gaiman is a shitty writer.
>>84231284
>Neil Gaiman is a shitty writer.
If he wasn't British, everyone would agree with you and he'd be a nobody.
Unfortunately, the British accent and ancestry is seen as being "sophisticated" and "cultured", particularly by American women. So a British person can write the most idiotic drivel and Americans will eat it up as being "brilliant".
Here's a thought, maybe art and writing are equally important?
Maybe it doesn't have to be a matter of one is better/harder/more important than the other because it's better when writer and artist work together as a team than thinking they're too good for whatever work they're doing.
But that won't satisfy a lot of people's insecurities and egomania, I realize.
>>84230940
>>84230995
As Sanders at least clarifies, his gripe isn't with writers altogether, but with how writers work with artists. That is more or less the same gripe that Larsen had.
There's no one to blame but the upper management, in those cases. The writers are doing their job, getting well-liked by their superiors, moving into better positions, etc. It's not the writers' fault that all this happens to step on the artists' toes (nor, in the more oblivious cases, is it the writers' fault that the producers pick them to write, regardless of if they mesh well with the art team).
Surely, though, there are enough examples in each of Sanders' and Larsen's careers where good writers were needed. Period.
>>84231302
>Here's a thought, maybe art and writing are equally important?
That is empirically, demonstratably wrong, though.
It takes a writer, at most, an hour to script a page. And that's being insanely generous to their "process".
Meanwhile, it can take an artist anywhere from 3 to 6 hours to draw that page.
Artists work exponentially harder than writers. That's just a fact.
>>84231337
>It takes a writer, at most, an hour to script a page.
Yeah, but what if wants to make it, you know, good?
>>84230998
kill yourself, faggot
>>84231224
I know it's not uncommon for modern writers who often got started as artists for at least one title or otherwise have some art credit under their belt, but would it be presumptuous for a writer who isn't also experienced as an artist to do layouts?
>>84231388
The problem is that no matter what a writer does, the artist will insist that they're interfering in the process.
If a writer gets too detailed with his script and provides layouts and poses, the artist will complain that the writer is stepping over his boundaries and robbing the artist of his input and contributions.
If a writer provides a vague script that gives the artist more freedom to lay the page out as he pleases or pose the characters in whatever way he wants, the artist will complain that the writer isn't doing his fair share of the work and that he's doing all the real storytelling.
Artists are impossible.
>>84231337
>It takes a writer, at most, an hour to script a page. And that's being insanely generous to their "process".
You are an idiot if you actually think this.
>>84231551
>You are an idiot if you actually think this.
You're right. It probably only takes them 30 minutes at most, and that's including a Starbucks break.
>>84231584
Like I said, massive idiot, no surprises here
>>84231584
Christ anon, who pissed in your cereal?
Stephen King?
I'll say it again:
Anybody can write. Not everybody can draw.
However, everybody can improve their art, improve the speed at which they draw, and other things with enough experience. Even with massive amounts of experience, it is difficult as hell for a writer to know where to improve and how to do it because anyone who gives them feedback has their own biases ---management/producers/editors want writing to be a certain way, even if artists hate it; artists just want to work well with writers in their visual medium, even if plot, characterization, and other writing quibbles suffer; general audiences don't even necessarily care about what's "good" but might just want something to pass the time; etc.
Even if a writer listens to all the above people, their writing may not (and probably won't) improve in any demonstrable way. It may just satisfy some more than others, or satisfy broadly rather than deeply.
So, to finish the first line:
* Anybody can write. Not everybody can draw. Yet, it's more achievable to become "good" at drawing than it is to become "good" at writing.
>>84231719
It's the art that sells a book. When someone considers buying a comic, they aren't allowed to read it first. All they can do is say to themselves "Is this visually appealing?"
Writing is not a factor in selling a book. It's all in the art.
>>84231757
This is a moot point because *cover art* -- which is what you're referring to -- generally differs from interior art, which readers are also not allowed to look at. Cover art has generally been different from interior art for the past 40+ years, too.
>>84231757
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA....
Alright, let's examine something which says the absolute opposite. Originally, Civil War II was one of the highest selling comics this year. Objectively, the art is fantastic which is crying shame because the story is absolute shit. However, now Civil War II has had a massive drop out rate and is selling at an increasingly low rate.
Hell, there is a reason that names like Bendis, Moore and Gaiman are slapped on to comics, the moment that they are sold. Because, ultimately, whether you like their style of writing or not, the simple fact is that these writers are well known and are popular among the comic community.
>>84231856
>Originally, Civil War II was one of the highest selling comics this year. Objectively, the art is fantastic which is crying shame because the story is absolute shit. However, now Civil War II has had a massive drop out rate and is selling at an increasingly low rate.
You seem to have little to no understanding of how comics are bought and sold.
There is ALWAYS a decline after a first issue and further as the series progresses. The first issue is printed in higher quantities to suite collectors who are only interested in the first issue.
How could you not know that? Are you even 18?
>>84231913
You do realize that the drop off rate is massive? As in the projected drop off rate was so off, that comic shops are literally overstocked with Civil War II?
>>84231913
you dummy
>>84231337
sure, if you're a shitty writer, or a phenomenal one. but all good writers will go through drafts.
>>84223008
As someone who used to have an intense passion for drawing, but was never any good, yes I can attest to the fact that writing is indefinately easier. That being said, I think you still need to have idea of plot structure, vivid visualization, and a deep appreciation for people & their interactions (even if you might hate the vast majority of them)
Everybody can write, just as everybody can draw, but that doesn't mean that they necessarily should
![9782070572977[1].gif](https://i.imgur.com/1Xa26YG.gif "9782070572977[1].gif")
>>84229302
Almost everyone writes on a regular basic (proof in this very thread). A very limited part of the population draws.
So catastrophic writers are rare, because most people have at least a bit of training(aslo, editors correcting the mistakes). THe learning curve for both skills ins't really different.
>>84230852
I'll take pic related over the any current marvel series, and it won't be because of the art.
Besides, a lot of writers also do the storyboard, which is a very important part of the visual aspect of the comic.
I'd argue that people remember old comics with a great story and poor drawings more than of gorgeous art on a dumb nonsensical plot. But in the end, it's a team effort, and the final result is shared.
If a writer can bang out 30 pages in the same time it takes for an artist to finish ONE page, then writers SHOULD be paid more than the artist. He deserves it. More over the artist should be paid less, because they are going to need to use that money to hire more artists to match the output of the writer.
It's not the writers fault if he is a hard worker and it is definitely not the writer's fault if the artists aren't up to snuff.
>>84232335
>I'd argue that people remember old comics with a great story and poor drawings more than of gorgeous art on a dumb nonsensical plot.
Alex Ross is the one who sells trades of Kingdom Come and Marvels, not whoever wrote those stories.
>>84230998
>I don't think it's hard myself because I have a natural gift for the pen
You sure about that?
alright fuckers, if writing is so easy i want a short story by some of you in 15 minutes, and it better be the best thing i read all year
>>84231337
>Longer = / = harder
>>84232582
Sure. Once the check you send me clears.
I guess it makes sense since writing is a mental exercise while drawing is that but you also have to learn finer motor skills.
>>84232464
I've always been under the impression that writers and artists collaborating with one another, tossing around ideas is the overall best outcome for any comic. You can't have one without the other, both are equal and should be paid the same provided that they know what they're doing creatively
Writing is just drawing a letters, why you people are so retarded?!
>>84229062
>Nigga you only think learning to read and write is easy because you (probably) learned all the rules and shit of English when you were barely old enough to remember. Drawing, on the other hand, isn't really taken seriously until high school, and at that point it seems super hard because you haven't spent your whole life so far already doing it, like you have with reading and writing.
But if we can assume that knowledge comes by default, and we do with literate people, then learning to 'write' is indeed easier. It's not wrong, you can learn to write even if you don't know English, you'll just write in your own language.
You can learn to draw if you practice every day and become good at it. You're not guaranteed to become a good writer even if you write something every day.
>>84231013
>The inequality in pay that Mike mentions is a joke when the time it takes to produce said work, is considered. If l drew a comic book in the time it takes a "real" writer like Mike Barr to write it, it'd be a pretty sorry-looking comic book to look at. The fact that most artists spend 10 to 12 hours a day plus most weekends every single month to produce what a writer who labors over his work can produce in a week shows where the real inequality lies.
This is a good point, but it's not a point about artistic merit between the two, just that the artist needs to be paid morebecause he's sacrificing more.
>>84223008
>>84231171
>Comics require more storytelling skills than writing.
No they don't. They require different skills, but different isn't the same as more.
>>84230852
>writing is the least important part of the process
shill harder, marvelfag
Passable writing is easier than passable drawing.
Good writing is harder than good drawing.
>>84223008
Depends on your personal strengths and weaknesses.
Some folks can look at a story structure and see all the component parts and how they link up with little practice. Some folks can look at an object and see its component shapes with little practice.
In the end, though, it's hammering away and being willing to accept that you're wrong about at least half of the shit you started out thinking that makes someone a good artist *or* writer.
>writing comics is hard
>writing two paragraphs worth of dialogue and some (and then he punches him) per month is hard
>>84233913
Writing shit is easy. Drawing shit is easy. Writing well or drawing well, which if your comic is two paragraphs worth of dialog and (he punches him) is certainly not the case, is hard.
>>84233946
>which if your comic is two paragraphs worth of dialog and (he punches him
That's literally all modern monthlies are.
Prove me wrong.
>>84230852
>writing is the least important part of the process
nobody reads comics for the art
>>84223008
Depends what you mean by "writing".
Writing as in constructing good dialogue, good character interactions, good development and good pacing. Or writing as in structuring the whole plot from beginning to end in a 'macro' way.
For instance, I think I'm pretty capable at the former. But then I read stuff like 20th Century Boys and I feel very, very humbled by all the reveals, call backs, plot twists, time skips (forwards and backwards), characters being introduced left and right and yet not really introduced, etc. And they all make sense, so the reader might feel confused but in a good way, not a bad way.
>>84230852
>writing is the least important part of the process
Shouldn't you be working on your terrible Avatar sequels James?
>>84223008
How do you figure?
ITT: Tony Daniel, Rob Liefeld, and Ales Kot circle jerking over how they're so great they don't need writers.
>>84231337
That has nothing to do with the importance that their work has on a piece.
>>84232593
Just depends if you're a shower or a grower.
>>84232528
For Kingdom Come, Waid propably played a part. He's an excellent author, and his Daredevil run is revered by many here.
Haven't read Marvels, so I won't say anything about it.
The art for the Killing Joke or Dark Knight Returns was nothing extraordinary, and yet most comic book readers know of those stories.
>>84231757
One Punch Man sure is unpopular, huh?
>>84223008
It depends on each individual person's own natural ability. You can train yourself, of course, but for some one is easier than the other.
>>84234696
>One Punch Man sure is unpopular, huh?
You mean the manga that sold like shit when it was originally released because the art was amateurish and bad, then when it was rereleased with better art it began to sell like hotcakes?
All you're doing is making a case for why art is more important than writing. One Punch Man was literally the same story, same writing, but when the art got better it actually became popular.
>>84233913
>>writing comics is hard
>>writing two paragraphs worth of dialogue and some (and then he punches him) per month is hard
If writing is so easy then why are 90% of comics worthless drivel?
>>84234965
>You mean the manga that sold like shit when it was originally released
Didn't OPM start as a webcomic?
Why would anybody buy a comic that's already free on the internet?
>>84235102
>If writing is so easy then why are 90% of comics worthless drivel?
If self-important editors (who are mostly ex-writers) would let the artists tell the stories, they wouldn't be so bad.
Comics "writers" get in the way. Comics that are written by the artist are invariably better than anything where the duties are split between an artist and a parasite (sorry, but that's what comic writers are).
An artist can write their own comic. A writer cannot draw their own comic. End of argument.
Then why has there been a maximum of like three decent writers in comic book history?
>>84235146
>An artist can write their own comic.
Not well though
>>84230940
Chris "I refused to listen to John Lasseter about re-writes for Bolt" Sanders? He got fired for a reason.
>>84231076
But art has been around just as long as writing, if not, longer. Cave drawings didn't exactly have words. Hieroglyphics told a story and it was basically a visual language.
>>84235462I actually do agree with you, but I've wanted to use this image for way too long now.
>>84231005
More like his name. He's one of those writers that can sell anything with his name alone. It's become a brand name.
>>84235462
You know that literature isn't only a written discipline, right?
>>84223008
Tell that to Neal Adams
>>84234965
It was a webcomic, not available for sale.
Even the redrawn version was initially a free webcomic.
It's because the shitty version was so succesful that it was picked by a publisher.
The only thing the redrawn version allowed was sales and export.
Honestly, I discovered it before the new version arried, and I'm not even a big manga reader.
>>84235175
Moebius, Hergé, Franquin, Pratt, Oesterheld, Druillet, Caza, Miyazaki, and countless other would disagree with you.
But saying that being an artist automatically makes you a great writer is stupid, though.
>>84223008
i can't do neither kill me
>>84235854
Moebius sucked at writing, though. The dude's art was cash, but really now...
>>84223008
yes, both are still hard but writing is generally less difficult
>>84235854
>But saying that being an artist automatically makes you a great writer is stupid, though.
That is what's being said. That all good artists are great writers, and writers do nothing but pull artists down.
>>84223008
So by saying his path on art is easier to learn, is he being a bit selfdeprecative?
>>84223008
True, but no one really bothers to learn either anymore.
>>84235907
My bad, I forgot that Charlier made the story for Blueberry. I thought he was alone on this one, for some reason.
>>84235984
Yeah, and it's stupid.
Example: Serpieri. Druuna, while original and enjoyable, is an utter narrative mess.
Or, since using your mistakes is killing two birds with one stone; Moebius was vastly superior when paired with a good writer, like Jodorowski or Charlier.
I wonder why you don't make the same argument for movies? You don't need dialoguists or screenwriters, they only pull the director down.
>>84236638
You know that there are a whole lot of scenes in movies that are actually improvised and become the most memorable part.
>>84236959
And a lot of artists make good writers. But just because sometimes things work out doesn't mean you never need a writer or a director or a guy setting up the lights. Improvisation can only take you so far.
>>84230998
As someone who writes for a living and draws for fun, I'd have to agree that the latter is far more time consuming (I make James Stokoe look fast), but >>84231025 brings up a good point. I'll disagree on Gaiman's abilities as a prose writer, but most comic writers are approaching Chuck Tingle tier. Granted, there aren't many great comic artists either.
>>84236959
Not everytime.
Everyone remembers Crooks in Clover because of Audiard, not Lautner.
>>84235146
>An artist can write their own comic. A writer cannot draw their own comic.
I don't see how both of these statements don't carry the same potential for validity. Maybe one edges the other out historically, but there's nothing intrinsic in the former statement that makes it truer than the latter.
>>84223008
It's easier to write than it is to draw. It's harder to write well than it is to draw well.
>>84235146
>An artist can write their own comic. A writer cannot draw their own comic. End of argument.
That's absolutely untrue. A writer can draw their own comic. It'll probably look like shit, but then that's the same gamble as an artist writing.
I think the medium helps drive popular opinion. How many of us turn to comics for Alice Munro tier writing? But as a visual medium, we're all looking for good art, so there always exists a greater burden on the artists' work than on the writers', which we mistake for varying levels of difficulty with each task.
>>84237369
Comics and novels are completely different mediums. By your logic, we can even compare comics to movies and claim that Snyder is a good director because of beautiful visuals,
>>84237462
People on this board do commend Snyder for his visuals alone, but I wasn't saying we ought to judge comics (and artists and writers) this way; I'm saying the tendency is there because of the visual component.
>>84223008
I think the difference between the two is that writing is more of a discrete art, while drawing is more continuous and imprecise.
>>84223008
>have a degree focused on english and creative writing.
>have spent years of my life crafting my technique, developing better understanding of characters so they're not flat, etc.
>/co/ tells me it's easy to churn out amazing stories.
>>84237702
wtf is that picture? that's not what i posted at all.
>>84234965
you're unbelievably stupid
>>84237777
Getting good enough to get published in a journal or to score an agent does take a lot of time and work, though. Some of that time is spent making connections, but you still have to become a decent writer (or at least one someone thinks will sell).
>>84238069
Was mostly speechless due to how that guy didn't know OPM was a free webcomic initially mang
>>84230998
>Easier?
>No.
>Less time consuming?
>Yes.
>I'm a comics writer and my artist will tell you that writing is hard. I don't think it's hard myself because I have a natural gift for the pen but that's just me. I can write an entire first draft of an issue of our comic in the time it takes him to draw one page. Same amount of effort per minute spent between the both of us, he just spends more minutes doing his end of the work.
>People will probably greentext me because they are mental midgets who cannot possibly comprehend the nuance and pageantry of writing, but again, mental midgets. Their opinions are worthless.
>>84230998
>I'm a comics writer
t. Everyone on this board
>>84238069
>Getting good enough to get published in a journal or to score an agent does take a lot of time and work
No one's saying it doesn't take a lot of time and work to become a good writer.
It just takes LESS time and work than to become a good artist.
>>84238452
No one on this board knows a fucking thing about how comics are made and this thread proves it.
I've tried both, and I have to say drawing is way, way harder. Writing is something someone can be decent/adequate at in like a year. Getting good at art is all a fucking uphill slog and you don't see any progress for an extremely long time.
>>84230940
He doesn't say they are deadweight, he says they are often poorly managed and tend to be uncooperative.
He's saying you want one (competent) writer on the team who works with everyone to get the story made. They have a job to do just like everyone else and giving them more authority than the rest of the team results in a mess.
Most of that was griping about the poor screening of writers and the bad experiences he's had because of it.
>>84231114
Jesus, really?
>>84223008
Of course it is, there is only 26 characters in the whole alphabet, most people learn how to write when they're children.
>>84241100
>Jesus, really?
My bad, anon. He didn't demand $40,000 to make a public appearance.
http://www.citypages.com/news/neil-gaimans-speaking-fee-attacked-by-star-tribune-6566146
He demanded $45,000.
>>84241453
combinatorials, do you get them?
>>84237702
>taking /co/'s opinion on creativity seriously
anon, just ignore them and continue to craft your skill. It took me years and year before I ever managed to make something that I was halfway proud of.
>>84230940
Tend to agree with this. You need writers to make sure the characters don't sound retarded, and don't do retarded things. But they shouldn't be anywhere near the artists when the actual comic is being drawn.
>>84231114
>>Charging a public library $40,000 just to make a personal appearance seems pretty arrogant.
He donates the money to the Hero Initiative. His steep fee is to make sure he isn't getting bombarded with requests to appear at events over and over again.
>>84235146
Nice bait.
>>84242041
He's a hack.
>>84223008
"Writers" are cancer, they always say there is more to every other artform since everything has already been done with writing but not with other mediums. They have already devalued their own specialty, why would anyone listen to what this person has to say?
>>84245518
>since everything has already been done with writing
no writer has ever said that. Maybe if they were describing the general plot, but if you think that is writing you are a fucking idiot. Sure Romeo and Julliette is not an original idea, two rival families with people falling in love, been done countless times. But it's HOW you tell a story, not what the story is. That is what writers do, they take an idea and put a unique flavor to it.
/co/ just thinks that because there are so many shitty comic writers that just churn out stuff as a job, akin to harlequin books, that all writers are bad. Take stuff like Neil Gaiman's work, or Kabuki or some of Moores work, each line is painstakingly crafted to communicate the idea right. A lot of Gaiman and Moores work reads like poetry, and a single poem can sometimes take months to write because of how each line has to be molded perfectly to fit in.
Being a hack is easy, being a good writer is very very hard
this thread is cancer
>>84226224
Agreed completely.
>>84231193
You obviously haven't written an actual comic story.
>>84226224
>once you reach a level where your writing isn't out-and-out awful, it'll be nigh impossible to get a good feel for how to get better -- and regardless of what people say about subjectivity/objectivity, you can always objectively advance your skill.
that's only the case from friends and other non-writers. which is not where you should get your feedback from once you have passed awful level. Feedback from professionals is different, though, it can be hard to parse out which criticisms are good and which are just from their own paradigm.
I was in a writing group for 10 years and the feedback was really good there. Though, when I joined I was awful tier. Still, when you have multiple points of feedback from peers who are your level or better you can improve drastically. I saw remarkable jumps in my ability at certain points, where I noticed that I managed to take the feedback and apply it properly to the style I write. Though, the other and more important part to my improvement was writing everyday, and any writer will tell you that the best way to improve is just to constantly do it.
>>84233886
Not really
Passable writing is indeed easier than passable drawing but when you get to the good stuff they're both pretty hard, Goethe could never paint the Mona Lisa and Da Vinci could never write Faust.
>>84223008
then why are there more good artists than writers? There's a ton of people out there who can draw but good writers are rare af.
>>84249567
>A painting in a painting
My head's starting to hurt.
>>84223008
It's not "easier" it's just more accessible because we're automatically taught to do it through our education system.
Drawing is piss easy once you've been taught the basics.
The main thing that separates a person who can write or a person who can draw from an "ARTIST" is the capacity to create content through your work and here the artist has an easier time of it because they don't need to be a storyteller to find success, they can follow a script.
In comics pretty much all a writer does is storytelling and if your storytelling is shit then people will care fuckall for your technical abilities.
Outside comics of course there's other things a writer can do though, like create lyrics.
>>84231213
>Maybe even do it for free?
Oh right that'd work out well.
Then every single facility would want him there for free.
It's not arrogance when the demand is real.
>>84242039
Absolutely wrong.
If the artist misinterprets the script it can completely change the tone, pacing, direction, etc of the story.
>>84223008
It's easier because you're required to practice writing 180 days a year for 12-13 years. Most people don't realize they'd like to draw until they start lacking the time to practice rigorously.
If you had art class daily at school for even an hour a day, starting with the fundamentals in elementary school, the entire nation would find drawing relatively easy.
>>84250200
One of MANY paintings in a painting.
I wounder if it's accurate.
>>84250148
Like an anon said earlier, Visual arts are somewhat more objective and apparent than literary arts.
It'd usually take minutes if not hours to see if you're a good writer, it can take as little as seconds to see if you're a good artist.
>>84229319
You can total doodle with writing.
>>84249318
>You obviously haven't written an actual comic story.
Nobody in this thread has.
>>84250216
>there's other things a writer can do though, like create lyrics
You mean the least important part of a song?
Not shitposting, mang. Really, lyrics don't mean shit when it comes to music. Half the time the singer slurs them so they're gibberish, or the mixing emphasises the instruments over the vocals so you can't hear what's being said, or the lyrics are just vacuous garbage.
C'mon, now. Calling a lyricist a musician is like calling a comic book writer a, well, "writer".
>People seriously thinking artists are worth more than wet shit
Pay close attention to this place for example.
/co/ can't get anything worthwhile done for a very specific reason. The artists always turn out to be giant drama bombs or simply just flake out, get lazy and vanish.
No commitment, no work ethic.
All they want are free handouts and endless unwarranted praise even if they do NOTHING.
Artists ain't shit.
>>84252103
to fans of music the lyrics are a very important part of the song. Look at concept albums or opera (which are the original concept albums). Lyrics are very important to them. Don't judge an entire art form on the top 40 you hear on the radio, people who like that art pay attention to these things.
Hell, even casuals pay attention, why do you think song lyrics are quoted more than sentences in stories?
>>84252283
>using volunteer 4chan artists as a yardstick for an entire industry
>not having a writing group to compare and just implying "all writers are good and have good work ethic lol"
>>84252390
Everything starts at grassroots, man.
>>84252442
No you fucking faggot, that's not how unbiased research fucking works.
That's because writing is a talent you either have or don't, while drawing just requires a ton of practice.
>>84223008
But it's harder to get better at writing than it is to get better at drawing, which explains why there's more good artists than good writers. Just check your local comic scene. How many good writers can you name off the top of your head? Now compare that to good artists you can name off the top of your head.
Guys, this might shock you, but you're getting it wrong: when people say "writing" in this context, they're not talking about grammar. They're talking about making a story that doesn't suck, okay?
>>84231072
That comic is still well-written though. It's not like writing is just dialogue.
>>84234093
Funny, I find the latter easy, but struggle with (parts of) the former.
>>84235146
>An artist can write their own comic. A writer cannot draw their own comic. End of argument
But when someone writes and draws a comic, then are they an artist who also writes, or a writer who also draws?
Practically everybody in a modern society is forced to learn how to read and write, and virtually no one is expected to learn how to draw. So writers already have the fundamentals that artists have to either learn on their own, or pay a lot of money to learn.
That's a big part of why being an artist is "harder".
>>84252844
>no grammar in comics
>>84254473
I...
>>84231284
>>84231299
His comic writing is shitty, but I don't see any issue with his books.
>>84231299
>Unfortunately, the British accent and ancestry is seen as being "sophisticated" and "cultured", particularly by American women. So a British person can write the most idiotic drivel and Americans will eat it up as being "brilliant".
That's also how he won the Angela lawsuit against Todd McFarlane.
The jury was made up almost entirely of American women who all swooned over Gaiman's British accent and did whatever he told them.
>>84250293
please, when has the success or failure of a project ever hinged on "tone" or "pacing"
>>84235146
>An artist can write their own comic. A writer cannot draw their own comic.
I'd say Randall Munroe, but to be fair the art's shit and the writing's not much better.
>>84257158
>What is MoS/BvS
