Was Cyclops right?
no, he attacked first in AvX
yes.
Cyclops is always wrong.
>>84211021
He got lucky. If it wasn't for the Avengers mutants would be extinct.
>>84211089
The avengers never lifted a finger to help mutants before AvX m8
yes
>>84211060
in a theater of war, any agressive action is considered the first attack, which Cap and the Avengers did by going to Utopia in a stealth fighter ready to attack and kidnap a child.
>>84211021
No, there are Avengers.
>>84211021
Depends, what exactly does he claim to be right about?
>>84211193
He was right about the Phoenix giving rebirth to his people,
Was he right not to obey captain america?
>>84211102
They have. The X-Men have been racist, sepratists 15 years though.
>>84211254
Captain America wanted to shoot Hope into space, so yea, not listening to him was a good idea.
>>84211021
>Became a mutant supremacist who was distrustful of all humans
>Proclaimed himself fascist dictator of all mutants and took over a piece of rock and claimed it was a country.
>Recruited a bunch of unrepentant mutant terrorists and criminals
>Openly threatened the human race, formed an "Extinction Team"
>Wanted to impose the X-Gene on people
>Gambled that the Phoenix Force would restart the mutant race with no evidence.
>If left to his own devices, he would have let the Phoenix Force take over Hope even though she wasn't ready, so she either would have been killed by Woverine or destroyed the world. So if Iron Man hadn't split the PF things would have been fucked.
>When the Phoenix Force took over him, he didn't bother trying to make more mutants
>In the end, it turned out that REJECTING the Phoenix with the help of the Scarlet Witch was what restored mutants (somehow), so Cyclops was wrong about that too
>Insisted that all the bad stuff he did as the Phoenix wasn't his fault, while still blaming the Scarlet Witch for M-Day.
>Had a mental breakdown, then started a fake revolution even though he had no plans.
>Kept acting like a terrorist and criminal, achieved nothing
>Launched a pointless assault on New Attilan, blaming all Inhumans for the actions of their exiled former ruler (who didn't even know there would be an M-Pox). What exactly was he hoping to achieve?
>Got his ass kicked and died
>Made mutants even more hated than ever
Nope, he was wrong
The Avengers have been asshole for decades.
>>84211430
The scarlet witch was controlled by a cosmic being on m-day?
When was this revealed?
>>84211479
It's been retconned a few times actually.
Current story is, actually, it was all Doom's fault.
>>84211479
Avengers: The Children's Crusade
>>84211475
Bendis' retcons were unretconned, this page is kind of insulting. Also, that page shows Wanda posessed by Chthon, which has nothing to do with Disassembled.
Fucking Bendis.
>civil war
>cap:i dun take orders from no one, you cant tell me what to do
>avx
>cap: you have to take orders from me and do what i tell you
>>84211513
I'm still mad that someone did "All the Avengers Bendis shits on get together and yell grievances at the Avengers" as a story but that someone was Bendis so there was no bite.
>>84211513
This is probably the last time Bendis wrote anything even remotely self-aware.
Well cap is a nazi in the end, Cyclops was less wrong in the end but overall the event was a disaster
>>84211497
>Doom's fault
>Implying Doom can do any wrong
>>84211546
>The core idea of the Avengers failed so completely
What does that even mean? And that's not what happened at all. Norman Osborn took advantage of the Skrull invasion to paint himself as a hero and fool a bunch of incrdibly stupid people (most of the population) into putting him in charge.
How exactly is the Dark Avengers' existence the Avengers' fault? Blame the American people and the Government or that.
And blaming the Avengers for the Sentry? Also pretty dumb.
>>84211558
Anon, it was revealed this week that the Red Skull used the Cube to fuck with Steve's memories (to the surpise of no one that actually reads comics). Do try and keep up.
>>84211610
I guess he's blaming the Avengers for not stopping Secret Invasion ?
>>84211610
Norman had the opportunity because Tony fell apart. It's certainly not all the Avenger's fault, but between them they let Bob down.
>>84211660
>he doesn't know about super math
and Hulk was an Avenger for like 3 issues.
>>84211660
Kind of weird that Bendis wrote this page, and now in Civil War II he's going to treat someone killing Hulk as a horrible thing.
>>84211691
Super math was one of the stupider retcons.
Even worse than Doom's origin being all Ben Grimm's fault.
>>84211660
So many things wrong with this page
>He was an Avenger for literally 2 issues and they immediately kicked him out, then started hunting him down
>Hulk's body count is a matter of much debate, but it's an accepted fact that he avoids killing innocents
>Hulk has saved the world countless times
>Hulk has never been given a free pass, heroes fight and try to stop him all the goddamn time
>"And no one is lifting a finger to stop him". Huge lie, people try to stop him all the time, problem is he's hard to find. "Leave Hulk alone!!
>The Illuminati did do something about him, they shot the Hulk into space, but it's clear that Wonder Man doesn't like the Illuminati
>"Blood on the hands of every single member", that's just absurd
>>84211730
>A war about nothing
How can he blame the Avengers for Dark Reign while simultaneously claiming that Civil War was fought over nothing?
Also, the fact that things are back to normal and everyone has reconciled doesn't mean that a war was fought for nothing, what kind of logic is that?
>>84211730
that's why I love it. it's so stupid and ruins the hulk and everyone ignores it so i can joke.
>>84211774
tbf I don't think the Illuminati did anything right ever
>>84211836
It mightis definitelybe giving Bendis too much credit, but there's a reasonable point about all these big 'important' events not actually having any long lasting consequences.
>>84211102
I hate this meme, especially when writers use it in-universe, because it's just plain not true. I especially hate it because for years X-Writers went out of their way to keep the X-Men in their own little corner of the MU that ignored everything else.
>>84211899
>One Avenger makes a robot during his free time
>It rebels against his programing and it turns evil
>Said Avenger tries destroys said robot countless times with the help of the Avengers
>IT'S ALL THE AVENGER'S FAULT
Fuck you Wonder Man
>>84211592
he murdered Cassie Lang in the same book in which he made those claims
>>84212061
Well, someone had to.
What was he expecting to happen when he attacked Attilan with a small force? He couldn't have thought he would win and damn sure knows that the Inhumans aren't the "put you in prison" type. Was it suicide by Inhuman, did he expect to become a martyr?
>>84212528
>and damn sure knows that the Inhumans aren't the "put you in prison" type
Actually, they are. The Unspoken and Lineage are currently prisoners of Attilan. Black Bolt could have executed the Wizard for brainwashing his wife, but he didn't.
>>84212649
The unspoken and Lineage were spared because Medusa thinks she might need them for whatever happens with the sky spears, same reason she didn't kill Lash. Leader is the rare exception. Also they tried to kill Lineage, he just barely survived.
>>84213214
>leader
I mean wizard
>>84211051
I want a t-shirt like that wall
>>84211021
I always missed the "about". About what he was right?
>inb4 "everything"
Also, What's the difference between Cyclops was right and Magneto was right?
>>84212649
They killed all those Ennilux guys
>>84213348
In self-defense, because it was a battle. If you survive being defeated, they'll put you in prison, they don't really do cold-blooded murder (much). Basically, they act like any real-world army would.
>>84211102
>we're mutants and proud you'll all respect as and not hate us
>independent team we'll deal with rogue mutants ourself!
>why the fuck didn't you ever help us assholes
Cap's response about respecting their independence or whatever was exactly right
>>84211475
>the little lightning bolts on the bottom of carol's shoes
Nice touch
Now when she kicks people in the face they'll remember it
>>84211430
>throw around buzz words like "supremacist" and "fascist dictator" without any explanation
>using greentext makes me look like I've actually thought of a pattern
Your list is shit and you should feel like shit
>>84213502
Cyclops was a supremacist because he was all "fucke everyone else, mutants rule." He wanted to impose the X-Gene on people that probably didn't want it. He wanted humans to fear mutants so that they would do what he says too.
He was a dictator because he proclaimed himself leader of a country. I didn't see any elections, and there definetly wasn't a seperation of powers or checks and balances, just him giving orders.
And then when he got the Phoenix Force he went full-on fascist.
Are you going to try and refute anything else?
>>84213620
Literally none of what you said is true
You should look up the definitions and examples of those words before trying to use them
>>84211060
Cap's request wasn't even unreasonable
>Ca[: "Scott, there's a giant galaxy destroying force on its way to earth, we need to get Hope off planet to make sure the world doesn't get wiped out."
>Scott: "ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?! YOU'RE A CIS-WHITE-HUMAN-MALE! WE NEED TO USE THIS THE PHOENIX TO TURN PEOPLE INTO FREAKS WITH SHITTY POWERS!"
>>84211021
What was the point of the Nation-X thing that Hickman did?
Bendis ended his run before it happened, then there was an 8-month time-skip where he's in Nation-X with no explanation as to what the hell happened or how it was formed (we don't even know where it is).
The plot didn't even require him to be leader of Nation-X, all Hickman did was have him go all Phoenix (which also ended up being pointless).
Then there was another 8-month time-skip and we never found out what the hell happened to that country.
>>84211660
I've always hated the idea that Reed & co. were wrong for shooting the Hulk into space.
They were right. The Hulk is a menace to society and they tried to shoot him to a planet where he'd get to be alone and live peacefully.
>>84211288
Sixteen million dead mutants in Genosha and not one Avenger could be bothered to show up before, during or after that Sentinel attack.
>>84211021
About what?
>>84213664
But he IS a supremacist. IF you think your genetic existence is superior to another person's, then you're a supremacist for that thing.
It's why Ableist criers are retarded...Being against having DOWNS syndrome is supremacist towards being genetically-healthy but it's not a bad stance.
However, Cyclops wanted to repopulate the mutant race in a way that he viewed that being a mutant was fundamentally a good thing. IF he really stood with the rest of the world and for unification, it wouldn't matter. His main priority would be to protect the lives that there were on both aisles instead altering the societal make up of mutants vs non-mutants.
And more than that, for a guy who was so hell-bent on this idea, he didn't even follow through with it. He's not even all that interested in the mutant race: he's interested in being a ruler. His interest in expanding the mutant race is based in the fact that that's his dominion and he wants more.
>>84213776
FUCK YOU. I hate it when people use that stupid-ass argument.
Do you want to know what story was coming out at the same time as E for Extinction? KANG DYNASTY. Do you know what happened there? Kang invaded with his armies, waged war throughout the world, killed countless millions, made all world governments surrender and nuked Washington DC. The Avengers were pretty damn busy, and the X-Men sure didn't help them. Do you see Avengers fans or writers ever pulling the Kang card on the X-Men?
More importantly, the X-Men didn't show up before or during the attack either, nobody could make it in time. And after the attack there isn't much of a point in going there since pretty much everyone is dead, and the X-Men were handling it.
And even more importantly, it's Morrison's fault because he refused to have anything from the Marvel Universe that isn't X-Men show up in his story.
>>84211123
>attack and kidnap a child
>said child was willing to go with them, and being held against her will
if anything it was prisoner extraction
>>84213976
But where was cao when america approved the use of mutuant hunting deathbots? How can any hero stand for the racial persecution that is rampant in Marvel?
>>84213739
Cap doesn't know shit about the Phoenix. It's not an illegal alien you can punch, it's literally a force of nature that can only be controlled by a host.
>>84213502
>>84213664
>explains point in giant walk of text
>"yeah but no tho"
maybe explain how he's wrong instead of just saying he is
>>84214040
Legally the X-men were her guardians....or probably not. I don't know how legit the sovereignty of Utopia was.
>>84214040
Then was why Wolverine going to kill her? Either cap knew that cancuck qas gonna kill her and this was a planned assassination or cap is a shitty leader who can't control his men.
>>84214077
Cap has always been against Sentinels, he and the Avengers have fought them many times. The thing is, there is nothing he can do about the Government building Sentinels other than expressing his disaproval. He has given many speeches about mutant rights, gay rights, black rights etc, but sadly, bigots are going to be bigots no matter what Cap says.
Speaking of Kang Dynasty, the US government was planning on using a bunch of Sentinels against Kang. Not only was Steve horrified to see how many Sentinels they had, he was strongly against using them. He was proven right when Kang hijacked the Sentinels and used them in his attack on Washington.
>>84213739
>getting hope off planet
But that would've done jack shit? If anything The Phoenix would've destroy the earth when it showed upnand it's host isn't on planet.
>>84213976
I was going to say exactly this. M-MUH GENOSHAfags can fuck off.
>>84213976
THIS.
X-Writers have always wanted their little special snowflake brigade alone in their corner of the universe, and then get upset whenever they are involved with anything. And now that's led to the XBooks being an absolute clusterfuck, with the fandom just blames it on the Inhuman push.
Honestly, it's one of the reasons why I don't want Marvel to bring mutants into the MCU, and why I am okay if the X-Men really end up getting their own universe in Death of X.
>>84211021
Cyclops' claim: Hope and the Phoenix will bring mutants back.
End result: Hope and the Phoenix bring mutants back.
Ultimately, none of the qualms the Avengers have with the Phoenix make sense. The Phoenix does not randomly send its hosts on a killing spree the moment they are possessed. Jean only went mad after a psychic fucked with her brain. Even in AvX, the P5 only started getting weird after Scarlet Witch started pumping chaos magic into them, and Cyclops only got his Dark Phoenix on after a psychic attack.
>>84214176
>nothing he can do
So you're saying Cap sees Mutant hunting deathbots and thinks:
>not muh problem
>>84211119
I want to titfuck Hank
>>84214140
The US government and UN didn't recognize it as a sovereign nation. Cyclops called it a country, but that doesn't make it one.
>>84214152
Cap did kick Wolverine off of a Quinjet and left him in Antarctica once he realized that Wolverine was unwilling to play nice.
Also, Cyclops sure as hell can't control Wolverine, which makes him a shitty leader by your logic too.
>>84214238
No, the Phoenix was following Hope. If Hope is off-planet it wouldn't bother going to Earth.
>>84214376
No, I'm saying that he thinks it's a problem, but that there is nothing he can do about it. Unless he started attacking government facilities and blowing their shit up, which not even the X-Men are willing to do (usually).
>>84211430
Part 1
>Became a mutant supremacist who was distrustful of all humans
Dirty lie. Trusted his human PR agent.
>Proclaimed himself fascist dictator of all mutants and took over a piece of rock and claimed it was a country.
You just used ugly words to make utopia being a mutant asylum sound dirty.
>Recruited a bunch of unrepentant mutant terrorists and criminals
Name one... When was the last time Emma or Mag evil after they joined cyclops?
>Openly threatened the human race, formed an "Extinction Team"
Please story time when he tried to wipe out the human race. I missed that run.
>Wanted to impose the X-Gene on people
Citation needed.
>Gambled that the Phoenix Force would restart the mutant race with no evidence.
Who wouldn't trust the person with the most knowledge on the Phoenix when it come to dealing with the Phoenix?
>If left to his own devices, he would have let the Phoenix Force take over Hope even though she wasn't ready, so she either would have been killed by Woverine or destroyed the world. So if Iron Man hadn't split the PF things would have been fucked.
You can't escape destiny.
>When the Phoenix Force took over him, he didn't bother trying to make more mutants
He was too busy bringing peace on earth.
>>84211430
>in the end, it turned out that REJECTING the Phoenix with the help of the Scarlet Witch was what restored mutants (somehow), so Cyclops was wrong about that too
Actually it require hope being possessed by the Phoenix, not rejecting it. He was right.
>Insisted that all the bad stuff he did as the Phoenix wasn't his fault, while still blaming the Scarlet Witch for M-Day.
He brought peace on earth but the avenger couldn't accept that so the ruined everything. He merely defended himself. He accepted responsibility in AvX consequences.
>Had a mental breakdown, then started a fake revolution even though he had no plans.
I fail to see how this was a bad thing. He rallied people up and protested.
>Kept acting like a terrorist and criminal, achieved nothing
Citation for terrorist act needed.
>Launched a pointless assault on New Attilan, blaming all Inhumans for the actions of their exiled former ruler (who didn't even know there would be an M-Pox). What exactly was he hoping to achieve?
This is assumed.
>Got his ass kicked and died
You win some you lose some. People die.
>Made mutants even more hated than ever
I blame sublime. That fucker is getting out of hand.
>>84215044
>Name one
I'm counting Magneto. Just because "he didn't do anything bad" while under Cyclops thumb doesn't change the fact that he was a villain. Also: Magyk, Danger, Toad, Nekra, Dragoness, Masque, Scalphunter and more.
>>84211430
Does Bolt kick his ass?
>>84215251
Nobody knows
>>84215186
>Just because "he didn't do anything bad" while under Cyclops thumb doesn't change the fact that he was a villain.
What evil shit has he been doing since cyclops has been gone?
Even still you can't blame some one for another mans actions. Even still while under cyclops' lead they were not doing any kind of villainy.
You can argue that cyclops makes people better people.
>>84215044
>Dirty lie. Trusted his human PR agent.
Fine, he was mistrustful of most humans. And amusingly, later it turned out that PR agent was actually Mr. Sinister.
>You just used ugly words to make utopia being a mutant asylum sound dirty.
Whatever you say
>Name one... When was the last time Emma or Mag evil after they joined cyclops?
Here >>84215186
>Please story time when he tried to wipe out the human race. I missed that run.
He threatened the human race. He formed the Extinction team with the express purpose of making humans fear mutants so much that they wouldn't dare attack them. He actually compared Utopia to North Korea.
>Citation needed.
He wanted to bring mutants back, which means people that would have been normal humans would be mutants. Therefore, he's trying to impose the X-Gene
>Who wouldn't trust the person with the most knowledge on the Phoenix when it come to dealing with the Phoenix?
He doesn't have the most knowledge of the Phoenix just because his girlfriend died.
>You can't escape destiny.
I'm not sure what that even means
>He was too busy bringing peace on earth.
You mean being a dictator?
>>84215119
>Actually it require hope being possessed by the Phoenix, not rejecting it. He was right.
"No more Phoenix"
>He brought peace on earth but the avenger couldn't accept that so the ruined everything. He merely defended himself. He accepted responsibility in AvX consequences.
He was a dictator that imposed his will on the world. He later said "Phoenix did it".
>I fail to see how this was a bad thing. He rallied people up and protested.
Surely there were other ways of doing it
>Citation for terrorist act needed.
Constant attacks on SHIELD bases
>This is assumed.
We already know he launched an attack on Attilan, not an assumption
>You win some you lose some. People die.
True
>I blame sublime. That fucker is getting out of hand.
Blame whoever you want. The X-Men themselves blame Cyclops for their predicament.
>>84211021
he is always rigth
>>84215391
>Who wouldn't trust the person with the most knowledge on the Phoenix when it come to dealing with the Phoenix?
Pretty sure that's Rachel Grey. No-one so much as asked her about it.
>>84214918
>The US government and UN didn't recognize it as a sovereign nation
Norman seceded the land during Dark Reign. It is absolutely sovereign soil, which makes the Avengers parking a stealth vehicle full of, effectively, WMDs, on the front lawn all the worse.
AvX was just awful.
>>84216643
>Norman seceded the land during Dark Reign
No he didn't, he just decided to let them do as they please on their piece of rock because he didn't want to commit genocide on live television and he had better things to do.
After that, the government tolerated their presence there since they'd rather keep the mutants on that rock than in San Francisco or New York, but they were never recognized as a sovereign nation.
