Hey co,
Were there any writers who supported the Spider-marriage?
From what I've heard most writers didn't really like the marriage. Even JMS who apparently only disagreed with OMD due to Editorial deciding not to not resurrect Gwen Stacy for BND.
So far I've found Conway, Kurt Buseik, Dan Slott (obviously), Mark Waid and Roger Stern (heart breaking for me to know desu) to be against marriage all together. Whether it be to MJ or anyone else.
On the other side the writers I do see that support spider marriage is Defalco and DeMatteis.
I was wondering if there were any other writers who liked the spider marriage? I imagine both Fraction and Bendis supporting the marriage.
Kay, so I am a marriage-fag. THAT being said I can see why writers favor spidey being single and youthful.
They don't want him to be like any other old hero. The young-ness of him is what makes him unique. Spidey's appeal according to them is his youth. Marriage no doubt removes that and ages him.
Opponents to this opinion claim these guys simply want to live through the younger Pete but I honestly don't see it that way, especially if writers like Buseik and Stern argue for no marriage.
>>84005150
Same marriage fag, with that being said the other faction namely Defalco's faction believes responsibility should be the main focus. The more responsibility he gets the more interesting his life becomes. This makes sense since most High School fags don't have as immense responsibility as they did when they go to college or university.
So yea, with greater power should come greater responsibility like bills, marriage and eventually a kid.
>>84005173
However the "youthful" faction does seem to argue that the appeal of great power and responsibility belongs to the younger crowd, the people who are trying to figure things out in life.
That's the group they need to pander, the further you remove peter away from that the further he becomes less and less as the Spider Man we know. Which I guess makes sense. Other heroes have power and responsibility as well, but the unique "youthness" factor can only be captured by Spidey. I mean how successful was Teen Tony? Or how good will Teen Batman even be?
The Spider-marriage hurts the story engine and makes Peter a more generic protagonist.
It has nothing to do with youth. It's about whether or not being Spider-man actually prevents Peter from getting what he wants.
If he's in a happy marriage with a woman whose entire purpose was originally to be an off-screen hot girl running joke (because Aunt May was trying to set him up with her but Peter kept missing her/getting out of it) he either has what he wants or he has someone to help cover for him/support him.
Both of those instances are what makes the story engine break.
Read the first 36 issues. Peter wants something, Spider-Man keeps him from getting it. That's the story and it works on every single front.
Well, Kelly goes out of his way to expressively say that Peter cannot ever be truly happy without MJ
On another note, a thing I've always found extremely funny is how the anti-marriage faction will say that the high school days were the best for Spidey, but those are something like two years at most of his stories, since he graduated and went to college almost immediately>>84005212
>That's the group they need to pander, the further you remove peter away from that the further he becomes less and less as the Spider Man we know. Which I guess makes sense. Other heroes have power and responsibility as well, but the unique "youthness" factor can only be captured by Spidey. I mean how successful was Teen Tony? Or how good will Teen Batman even be?
In my opinion Spidey has lost the need of having his own gimmick. He's too famous and important to having problems because of it.
Just look at the current stories. He's basically a loser Tony Stark right now, yet he's the most successful regular comic
>>84005117
Bendis was pro-marriage at the time. Or he was anti-OMD considering that the first thing he did post OMD was have Pete tell the Avengers his identity again
>>84005212
Anon, I just think the whole point of slowing down Spidey's age or giving the "illusion of change" as Stan Lee put it was necessary to build a recognizable brand or franchise.
Since spidey has become a successful recognizable franchise we have gotten so many shows and movies about him, some good and some bad.
Which makes me think. We already got an established franchise going on. Why the hell cant Comic writers allow at least this one version of Peter to grow? Comics are already a niche group,so whats the point in deaging him for the "new hip" crowd. Where the fuck are these mysterious "new readers" marvel keeps pandering too. It's just fucking asinine. I want the fucking marriage back.
>>84005271
Yea I wanted to mention Bendis but didn't want to attract his irrational haters. When that guy writes good comics they are amazing when its bad they are down right horrible.
I've found most writers have written at least one bad or good comic in their life.
Except for Liefeld and Austen. Fuck em.
>>84005317
>Austen
Strips. Or Hardball.
Also, storytime
>>84005249
I honestly think you are on point on what makes Peter work. That's exactly it.
Peter is fully capable of getting something what he wants but the act of being Spidey always hinder's it.
However I think it's definitely something that can be applied in the spider-marriage. JMS separation of the two comes to mind as Peter tries to make amends with MJ as it never works out since both of them decided to surprise visit each other at the same time (ofc later they reunite thru their connecting flights).
That's probably why I admittedly enjoyed Slott's Spock run where Otto realizes Petes problem and invents Spiderbots to alert and direct law enforcement to places he can't make it too.
This is also something happening in the current run. Pete's overreaching the capabilities of Parker Industries (through his increasingly disgruntled employees) that sooner or later its going to blow up in his face.
>>84005117
Even JMS? Weird, he write them like a couple very good.
>>84005117
Peter David says he thought it was a nifty idea.
He also wrote one of the best depictions and showed why being married absolutely does not break the story engine in his short story "Five Minutes."
>>84005378
oh man its my favorite spidey story ever. Thanks Anon~
Side note, if editorial had the guts to stay with this status quo we would have so many interesting stories. After all the whole point of Spider-man is the spider-man persona making it harder for Peter to have a normal life. Now with his identity blown and him suddenly being on the run... the possibilities out there would've been fucking endless. Shame everyone involved got cold feet.
>>84005117
>Were there any writers who supported the Spider-marriage?
David Michelinie did and he wrote a really good married couple.
>>84005428
Oh awesome. PAD is one of my favorites, even if some of his stories can be weird (supergirl the earth born angel comes to mind). So it's nice to know he supports it.
Any idea what issue that short story was on?
>>84005411
Honestly not that surprised when you consider his wankfest over Gwen in sin's past... or whenever Gwen was bought up in his run (which thankfully wasn't a lot)
>>84005411
OP Is wrong.
JMS liked the marriage. OMD Was editorially forced on him. Here's his response to Stephen Wacker on Facebook when Wacker trolled him:
"I have always made it very clear that when I came aboard ASM I brought Peter and MJ back together because I liked writing them as a married couple. I made equally clear that the decision to unmarry them and, in the same brushstroke, eliminate virtually every story I’d written during those eight years was an editorial mandate, not my choice. I would’ve been happy to continue writing them married until the sun went out. Marvel wanted to unmarry them. That’s your choice, and your right."
>>84005275
>marcos martin's god tier art
>>84005432
Really? This one is your favorite? I mean, it's not bad, but it's not amazing either.
>>84005456
It's in a short prose story in the Ultimate Spider-Man anthology. Worth reading if you can find it.
>>84005635
Fuck off Quesadilla
I think Peter being married was both a natural evolution of the character as well as bringing both another humanizing aspect to him and more problems, as well.
I can see why people hated it, but MJ specifically was perfect for him, and they went through issues and issues of character development before they were even ready for marriage.
Considering nearly every superhero was a single bachelor and they kept rehashing UST as much as possible to get the shekels, it was nice to have a married, relatively happy person, whose marriage was only one aspect of his character. Peter, being always against revealing his identity or being a worldwide hero, was the perfect one to get married. MJ made it work by being a good wife as well, and if they did it again, I would only want it to be her.
>>84005486
Op here, completely my bad.
I was just following this story which stated that JMS wrote who was going to be alive for BND and wanted Gwen Stacy to be one. Editorial felt that would make a lot of stories irrelevant compared to the timeframe of stories when MJ and Pete married so they nixed it. JMS got pissed and left the title.
So based on that story it was completely conjecture on my part in assuming he was against it. it could be possible he was still against it but like any good writer was willing to obediently follow through any editorial mandate.
Reading that FB post however just makes it a bit confusing.
>>84005678
My biggest problem with marriage was how fast it happened. MJ just came back and they decided to get married. Hell, he fucked with Cat like an issue prior.
I know it was because Shooter's weird synergy with newspaper strip, but the fact that Felicia didn't know they were married until fucking Venom told her.
>>84005662
>>84005655
I don't know really know how much time passes between conception and actual publication of a story, but wouldn't it be possible that they were already planning OMD when this annual was published?
Because that would make me feel ratherangry
>>84005635
Its def not the best but to me it just hits the right notes that it has a special place in my heart. Especially because I was very fond of the issues MJ flashes back to (their first real kiss at the airport).
I am a sucker for sweet moments that this issue is entirely filled with.
>>84005705
JMS also can change his answers when he wants to. He has like 3 versions of his OMD and how the whole switch happened.
It's not as bad as say Priest, who lies all the time, though.
I don't particularly care about the marriage itself, since I'm not too fond of Mary Jane, but I'm against any runbacks on character development and progression in a medium where that's so rare.
>>84005715
Felicia was being annoying for awhile, and Pete fully realized he wanted to settle down, something Felicia had never wanted. She never even wanted Pete.
Meanwhile, Pete and MJ had been in love for awhile. They really just didn't want to admit it. After MJ had a talk to him about his life stuff, he realized MJ was really the only one that understood him, and just wanted to tie the knot before she ran away again. I doubt he even expected her to say yes. And she didn't. It was only after Pete helped her with her family that she also realized that she loved Pete and he understood her, and they basically just said fuck it. They'd more or less been in love for awhile.
>>84005117
JMS was dissapointed he had to let the marriage go, but he knew six years in advance they were getting rid of it so he was resigned to that,he objected to the devil deal,
>>84005117
I personally like the idea of a married Spider-man a lot. Look, most of us here grew up with Spidey. Many of us are, very soon, going to become fathers ourselves.
They're trying to push Miles really hard, right? So why not have Peter mostly retire, and let Miles take the lead with Peter taking on a mentor role? You can squeeze out years of stories like this:
> Mary Jane and Peter are newly married. (We've had years of stories.)
> Mary Jane is pregnant. Peter is terrified and proud.
> His son or daughter is born. Now Peter is a father, and he has to balance those responsibilities with work and being Spider-man.
> Now his kid is a child, and that changes the dynamic.
You could have YEARS of stories from this. Franklin Richards and Valeria didn't age the Fantastic Four that much, did they?
>>84005653
I'll try to find it. Thanks.
>>84005249
'>That's the story and it works on every single front.
Til it gets boring.
Like it is now.
I've read the newspaper strip for years and don't get half as bored
>>84005716
Oh they were absolutely planning it. A lot of fans believe this is Fraction's version of a "Fuck you" to editorial in showing that marriage can actually work.
>>84005768
Yeah the thing is they tried to introduce something similar to that in Ben Reilly. However editorial fucked it up in execution.
With that being said I think right now is the most prominent time for this switch over to happen. Just a few years ago people were against a "black" spiderman, now a lot of people either want miles to be the replacement and for peter to settle or are OKAY with marvel going that route.
Unfortunately current Marvel is still bent on the idea that Pete should be single despite already having a likable single Spidey in miles.
>>84005736
If JMS is such a liar, then find JMS's statements about how he hated the marriage.
Pro tip: you can't because they don't exist.
>>84005832
>now a lot of people either want miles to be the replacement and for peter to settle or are OKAY with marvel going that route.
Nigga are you high? No one outside of Bendis thinks that
>>84005854
Sorry let me rephrase that. I didn't mean to say EVERYONE is on board with this idea, but i've seen frequent posts in forums outside of 4chan supporting this idea.
There is a loud vocal group that are surprisingly fine with this. I personally have mixed feelings but that's just me.
>>84005768
I like to entertein the thought of an alternate reality where comic book time passage coincides with the real world and present day Spider comics are about 70-year old Grandpa Pete and the adventures of his 33-year old daughter May Parker, the Spider-Woman. Sigh...
>>84005832
My problem is that after the rest, Peter was a 30-year-old-man living in his aunt's basement. That says something chilling about society in general.
His new concept as 'super-rich Spider-man' is both stupid and insulting. Especially since it's Otto (for some stupid reason) who built it. I don't understand why they do this shit with the character.
>>84005662
Thanks for the storytime anon. I appreciate it.
>>84005908
Because nothing makes a character feel young and hip like being the CEO of a company
>>84005899
Haha ur not the only one. My headcanon is peter was spidey well on his way to his 40s or 50s wearing the last stand spidey suit as he fought alongside his daughter before retiring and leaving the mantle to Mayday who herself has started a small family (possibly as a single mom since that kinda setup is relevant and less taboo in current society)....
sigh, a fan can dream anyways.
>>84005705
JMS wanted to reset Peter back to the supposed "golden age." Instead of the marriage not happening, now Harry got help for his drug problem right away so his OD didn't happen, so Norman's breakdown didn't happen, so the Green Goblin didn't kill Gwen.
Peter would be dating Gen and MJ would be with Harrry, thus resetting the book the mythic "Peter Archie Parker torn between Betty Gwen and Veronica MJ at the Coffee Bean while commiserating with his best buddy Harry Jughead Reginald."
That's what Marvel editorial really wants. Those are the stories Quesada and Brevoort fap over when they talk about Spider-Man. They want Spider-Archie, but didn't have the balls to actually do it when JMS proposed it.
>>84006023
I think they're missing the point, really. What made Spiderman so fascinating as a character was that he really captured the zeitgeist of youth, and not the happy parts. The sad parts. The parts where your girlfriend moves on. Where your father and mother is growing old and slowly dying - And you have to watch them deteoriate, and will this be the last time you see them?
You see your friends fall to addiction, to vice, and precious things are lost forever as everyone drifts apart. And you have to, somehow, find a place in this strange, chaotic and ever-changing world for yourself.
You are adrift, and all you want to do is to do the right thing.
>>84006072
That does'nt fascinate me at all. I did'nt grow up with that Spider-Man for 20 years. Spidey moved on, as we all should, from that part of life.
Fuck off Quesada.
>>84006101
Honestly, that's way better than the Slott stories.
>>84006072
I like you.
>>84006023
Thats unfortunately what a lot of writers want from Spidey, including Busiek. Which is shocking since this is the guy who writes Astro City! What the hell?!
Personally I understand why they want Peter to stay static. I mean look at other static characters like say Archie or Scooby Doo? They more or less stay the same and are subjected to a hundred different interpretation. Kinda like superman and batman as well.
That's what Editorial wants from Spidey and their characters except also instill the "illusion of change" where nothing significant truly happens.
It just makes me think that maybe DC's annual reboot is probably a better mode of telling stories than Marvel's mode of constant retconning. At least you get a version you can call your favorite and stick to it. Like for me it would be the classic scooby serials, classic archie or the afterlife series and DC pre Flashpoint
>>84005249
Until eventually this becomes pointless as you stop everything from moving forward under the excuse that you need him to never get any personal accomplishments for the story to have a "point".
The truth is people are just salty and want things to stay exactly the same because that's what they wished life had been, and use the fictional characters as their anchor to the past.
>>84006128
You suck Slott
>>84006072
The problem with coming of age stories is that characters can only come of age once.
So the choice is to either allow the character to continue to grow (and it's comics, it's 22 pages a month, that can take a long time) or you freeze them in amber.
Lee made a conscious decision to allow his characters to grow as opposed to DC, who froze them at the time.
I understand Marvel's desire to now take the amber route. But it also undercuts why their characters were so popular in the first place.
>>84005486
Jms is not a reliable narrator of his own story. His recollection of events is... often not in line with the verifiable elements of reality. And he loves to be loved by fans.
The reason he was really unhappy with OMD is he wasn't allowed to retcon about half of everything starting from right before Harry ' s death.
Maybe he was a fan of the marriage, I believe that's true- but don't take anyone in comics at face value about shit like this.
>>84006189
Sauce?
>>84006150
Lee did freeze him at College age for a very long time. He mandated the whole "illusion of change" in all is characters including the FF when he realized he struck up a gold mine with Marvel.
It's the exact reason why we remember the iconibility of batman or superman or even fucking archie. They are constant frozen story engines that churn out the same crap interpreted in different ways.
In the end that's exactly what modern marvel has kinda become and that's exactly what the editorial staff wanted of their characters.
>>84006207
> forgets DC and Arche sales are in the crapper because they took this route.
>>84006227
> forgets DC and Arche sales are in the crapper because they took this route.
LOL this. He forgets the appeal of Marvel was that they weren't static. That's what made them so famous.
See Claremont's run from the 70s to 80s for further proof.
>>84006227
>that post also forgets DC and Archie are now aping Marvel's character growth
plenty of young men in the late teens or twenties are married, engaged, or in long term relationships
>>84006265
This, I was this close to marrying a chick that I hate and I was 18.
>>84006227
>I leave this particular topic by referencing two icons of young girls' literature - Nancy Drew and Judy Bolton. You've probably heard of Nancy but not Judy. Both were fictional teenage detectives who got their respective starts long before the aged MadGoblin (yes, that is true). Nancy Drew, who first appeared in the early 1920's, was a pretty blond who was forever 16 years old, lived in a completely fictional town, had a rich lawyer daddy who placed no curfews or restrictions on her behavior whatsoever, and gave her a nice car to tool around in to solve mysteries. Several different writers in the series recrafted the older books to reflect modern times, and the newer editions clearly have Nancy as a hip, funky girl of the 21st Century, though no less spoiled or improbable as she was decades before. Judy Bolton, on the other hand, lived within limited economic circumstances in an area that was clearly based on a real town (Coudersport, PA if you need to know), aged, married, and was even (gasp!)pregnant with twins as the series was unceremoniously brought to an end in the 1960's as the publishers of the aforementioned Ms. Drew ruthlessly moved to eliminate all of Nancy's competition for young girls' readership. Even though many readers of and experts on children's fiction believe that the Judy books were superior to the Nancys, Ms. Bolton is largely forgotten, living on only in the hearts of her die-hard fans. The ageless, improbable Nancy Drew lives on and continues to make money for her publishers, however - more than 80 years after her debut.
From spideykicksbutt.com
In short, Icon status is important. Even I have heard of Nancy Drew and not Judy Bolton.
>>84006297
also add in the fact that DC and archie are beating marvel, there you go.
>>84005150
The belief is that you take away stories with a married Peter because most writers are lazy and relationship drama is a cheap source of story fuel. They're wrong, of course, but that's the reasoning. A lot of them are also just plain NOT MUH fags and want Peter to be what he was when they were kids i.e. young and single with his pick of any number of beautiful women (Liz Allan, Betty Brant, MJ, Gwen for most of those people, maybe Black Cat as well) that he can rotate between for unlimited potential relationship drama without having to commit to any one of them.
There's really no argument against a married Peter beyond laziness and NOT MUH shit. If they could DO anything interesting with a single Peter then sure, I can buy the argument that it's a better choice but what have they done since the break up that's necessitated Peter being single? A couple of bad relationships that went nowhere because nobody liked the characters in question is really it so it can be argued that Peter being single has been a detriment to the character since he lost a great supporting character and gained worse ones like Carlie Cooper or Sajani Jaffrey.
>>84006297
>>84006310
Shit anecdotes doesn't mean causation. Also you forget DC is beating marvel due to rebirth albeit marvel comics is still shitting the bed with their questionable editorial decision. You need to factor in that most of Rebirth title had a lukewarm reception at best.
Also the most successful example of Marvel method is the MCU itself. It genuinely works in real time with Tony being Iron Man in 2008, Cap 2 taking 2 years after Avengers etc etc. AND this is without them doing a monthly publication like comics does.
>>84006310
Except they aren't
>>84005117
>Dan Slott, Mark Waid
They're partof the BND writing staff so they'reviews will be coloured. But Waid was against Loiz/Clark too so his opinion could be genuine
>>84006329
What was that story about an alternate universe where Peter had a child with Mary, but he kept being Spider-Man a secret to 'protect his family' or something like that? Renew Your Vows? I find that a good "Parker Family" story, even if there's a need to destroy every other superhero to do so.
>>84006310
>>84006329
>young and single with his pick of any number of beautiful women (Liz Allan, Betty Brant, MJ, Gwen for most of those people, maybe Black Cat as well) that he can rotate between for unlimited potential relationship drama without having to commit to any one of them.
Harems were a mistake
>>84005605
>I just wanted apple juice
10/10 Pete.
>>84006329
>gained worse ones like Carlie Cooper or Sajani Jaffrey.
He would've got Sajani regardless. And Carlie honestly isn't that bad.
>>84006329
Honestly I just don't see this drama between single pete vs married pete. When I was a kid I just wanted to see Spiderman in costume beating people up because Spidey understandably had an awesome fucking costume.
I didn't care if he was single or married. Marvel shouldn't care either. If they genuinely want to grow their character then fucking make him married. Spidey can still be cool and badass. Hell my first comics were JMS spidey where he WAS married. At the time I just loved him fighting all the new badguys JMS came up with.
>>84005267
>yet he's the most successful regular comic
No he isn't. Maybe for Marvel.
>>84006394
They both aren't bad if you remove them from the romantic section of Pete. I like Carlie using her CSI to help Pete, it kinda reminds me of Dewolfe character and Sajanni as Pete's competent coworker with her own goals is pretty cool as well.
>>84005832
Ehhh. I wouldn't say many people want miles as replacement. Most people seem to just kind of tolerate him. I certainly don't care about him, he's a tertiary character, could get killed off, I wouldn't care.
>>84006422
Is Sajani a romantic interest now? Sheesh
>>84005432
>we would have so many interesting stories.
No, that's not true. Status quo doesn't dictate how interesting stories are. But it definitely wouldn't have hindered any potentially interesting stories.
>>84006297
>spideykicksbutt.com
God fuck, I remember falling in love with his website.
>>84005705
>Editorial felt that would make a lot of stories irrelevant compared to the timeframe of stories when MJ and Pete married so they nixed it.
Who wouldn't get pissed at that. They're basically saying they don't care about making his stories irrelevant but the other stuff should stay fine.
>>84006297
And Anne of Green Gables, who aged from 12 to 60 in her books, is more of an icon in young women's literature than Nancy Drew who - guess what - got rebooted several times and now goes to college, has different boyfriends, etc.
Survey says: Nice try, you lose.
>>84006508
>icon in young women's literature
Hell, Katniss is married and had children!
i know nothing about young women literature
>>84005267
I think that's a bigger problem. Peter should not be in charge of high tech companies or working at places like that. He should not be a nise-Tony Stark. Making Peter a high school teacher was the perfect direction for him since it's still comfortably normal as an occupation and adds (as Peter should have) a fairly believable responsibility to his students.
>>84006150
My dream for Marvel would be the creation of an actual calendar that all have to follow to some degree
>Great maxi-crossover, so important that the Marvel universe stop using the gregorian calendar and use their own new one
>This calendar doesn't follow 1:1 the real calendar, it would still go much slower, since most stories would still use little time period like one day for a saga that last 6 real life months
>Now, whenever there is a crossover or shit like that they choose a date and say to all authors to not go beyond that date before
>Characters actually age with the Marvel calendar
>When they reach the year 10 a.M. (After Marvel) Spidey is married with a little daughter, Miles, Kamala and Sam are actual Avengers instead of "Avengers junior" while Ellie Camacho is the leader of the "New" New Mutants as Magik IIthis last point is very important to pander to me
>>84006499
The author is still around and active in Spidermancrawlspace forum. Suggest you check it out.
>>84005267
Please. It hasn't been done since BND. Big Time on had been an extended What If riff.
>>84005678
What was unique about MJ that it couldn't be anyone else? Serious question, I've read very little Spiderman from before OMD.
>>84005219
Go fuck yourself Quesadilla
>>84005382
Yeah, I remember that story. The front half of the JMS run worked because he made the story engine function even when the marriage was in play and even when there were spider-gods and shit. Peter was still the underdog. It doesn't mean it's all sad sack, but you can't get too far away from it.
Having aunt may know about things provided support but also strained their relationship, etc.
>>84006587
I think he was referring to Spider-Man/Deadpool #5
I'm pretty sure Tom DeFalco supported it.
>>84006538
That's okay, neither does the anon who pulled that quote as "proof."
Not to mention Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys, plus others, were part of the Stratemeyer Syndicate which used ghost writers and methodically pumped out books in an assembly line process (not too unlike comics). They had a lot of market power and they moved to crush the Judy Bolton series because it was a competitor to Nancy Drew. Had nothing to do with "icon" status.
>>84005908
Why is it stupid and insulting?
>>84006595
>Betty was already married and kind of a bitch/insane (she cheated on Ned with Flash, and Pete iirc)
>Gwen is dead/way too fucking vanilla (Stan Lee outright admitted they envisioned MJ to have more interesting story lines)
>Liz was way too shallow and then married Harry
>Felicia only cared about the Spider-Man persona and not at all about Pete
Meanwhile,
>Pete was the only one that knew about MJ's past and her sadness under the party girl persona
>MJ knew the entire time that Pete was Spidey (a genius twist) because she isn't a dumbass and truly worries about him, and cares about both Spidey and Pete
It could not have been anyone else believably.
>>84006538
Katniss has yet to stand the test of time. Plus her stories were planned with a beginning, middle, and end, not a bunch of serials over a 30-40 year period that did not allow new fans to jump in at any point.
>>84006508
>in young women's literature
See: die-hard fans
You're average joe and jane will always know who Nancy is over Ann or Judy. Thus a large pool of potential new readers to make money off of and further increase a character's popularity. While one story might be better then the other, selling is always the main goal of an icon. Growth tarnishes that.
>>84006595
http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/WhyYouMaryJane/WhyYouMaryJanePart1.html
One person's reasoning. But it's pretty good, if very long.
>>84006141
It doesn't need to stagnate, but it needs to be at the core. Also the character wasn't created to function indefinitely. None of them were.
If you're going to have the continuing serialized adventures of Charlie Brown where he grows up, you can do Charlie Brown in high school --> college. But if your story is about Charlie Brown being good at everything and loved and always kicking the football, you've had the character "grow" into just a different character.
>>84006207
True. Shame he didn't realize it before Franklin Richards was born, permanently stagnating the franchise.
>>84006659
>Nancy Drew is more iconic than Anne of Green Gables
BWA HA HA
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
>>84006646
What I'm asking is what was unique about Mary Jane (the character) herself that no one else could possibly be it. And I'm not asking for story reasons as those can be given to anyone depending on how the writer writes. but the character herself. Why is she the only fit even in the future if they introduce a new character, why must it be MJ?
>>84006630
Ah, shit. Replied to the wrong post. Phone.
>>84006646
>>84006685
Yeah, probably the only reason MJ is the 'the one' is because she had years (it sure feels like that) of stories, all about how much she cares about Peter and how much he cares about her in return. If you can somehow make another character convey that level of affection, you could probably have that character marry Peter.
and probably get Mephisto'd again
>>84006663
Do you know where I can find the "Gwen Stacy series" he mentioned?
>>84006685
Because, simply, she has years and years of character development both by herself and with Pete and a chemistry with Pete that no new character can ever, ever hope to match.
>>84006682
>Anne of Green Gables
Average Joe here, literally who?
>>84006713
Read books.
>>84006595
It honestly seems like the most realistic love story.
But Pete first dated Betty Brant in High School while Liz Allen was competing for his affection. Aunt May wanted Pete to meet her neighbors niece Anna Watson who has a "wonderful" personality.
Naturally Peter thought she would be the "homely" type who loves to knit and make stew with the grandmas or something so he kept stalling.
Then Pete graduated, broke up with Betty and went to College. There being Spiderman was getting in the way of making friends which antagonized Gwen Stacy, Harry Osborn and Flash Thompson (who you would know was Peter's bully in HS).
Eventually May tricked Pete into meeting MJ, where Peter finally opens the door and we are given this wonderful iconic "face it tiger" line as shown in the image on my left.
MJ turns out to be an hot awesome chill party girl that goes out with Pete. Eventually Peter settles with Gwen due to her "girl next door" type persona that everyone loves, where as MJ dates the rich Harry who Peter thinks would go well together. Unfortuntately MJ isn't the committed type which fucks Harry up as he takes drugs to cope. This pisses of peter, then later Gwen dies. MJ goes to comfort Pete but peter tells her to gtfo since she probably wont care if her mother died. THEN we get the famous scene where MJ is almost about to leave but decides to close the door and sit next to him and comfort him.
THIS was a huge character development for MJ, shortly later they begin dating as well and slowly get serious to the point Pete even proposes to her. She freaks out and them getting serious so fast and breaks up with him before returning a couple of years later revealing she knew he was spiderman. This changes everything, they get back together and eventually marry.
There wasn't ONE TRUE LOVE bullshit. They naturally got together and slowly developed their love for each other like how normal relationships happen, except with a superhero twist.
>>84006713
Some Canadian chick with pretty incredible plots and character growth that my sister still reads the books to her daughter
i read it too in secret
>>84006705
>Gwen Stacy essay series
I'm not sure if this is the same series referenced, but the same author wrote this: http://www.spidermancrawlspace.com/2009/03/08/finding-gwen-stacy-part-05-introduction/
>>84006705
She's "the one" because she has the most developed backstory out of all the love interests, loves Peter for who he is and actually is lively and interesting. Also she's still Peter's wife in the newspapers. OMD did'nt acheive jack anon
>>84006682
If I surveyed 100 completely random people off the street most will know Nancy's name right off the bat while Anne with get literally whos.
You can claim who's and what's in the literary world, but icons live in the public sphere. The Big Two's flagships will always be more popular as icons versus anything literary masterpieces with a completed narrative anyone else publishes because you can drape any story over a skeleton and people will recognize it for purely for the shape it forms.
>>84006685
>>84006708
>>84006646
What anon said. They genuinely had a very interesting chemistry. MJ was a girl who came from a broken home and hid that with the party .
girl exterior.
Believably in the spiderman narrative she was secretly the one. Sure Gwen was the one true love but her purpose was to be the one that got away (through death). Black Cat was suppose to bring out Peter's wild side in his spiderman persona etc but hated his ordinary "peter" self.
In MJ you had the wild side of Black Cat and the Next door girl type persona of Gwen blended into the perfect balance. This was all unintentional in the spider writer's part but I am glad it's what we got and that's why she is my spiderOTP
>ITT: Peter/MJ shipping manifesto
>marriage
>mj sleep with other guy the night before the marriage
>mj trhow a break, go to california (i think) and sleep with other guy while peter is dealing with spider-wasp
>>84006781
Yeah this. That being said Anne is still a very commercially successful series to this day. Her latest book came out a few years back and it sold like crazy.
>>84006781
Go ahead. Ask women, since they are the ones responsible for buying those books. Doesn't matter if a character is an "icon" if it doesn't sell. Just because you heard of one, probably by fapping to Emma Roberts in a film no one else saw, does not mean that's true for the target audience.
And equating Anne with Judy Bolton is all sorts of moronic imbecility.Try going into a YA community and saying that.
Stick to comics, anon. You know nothing about YA literature or young female readers.
>>84006831
No evidence MJ slept with Bruce.. also definitely no evidence of sleeping with anyone in California.
>>84006835
There's apparently a new TV series for Anne that's written by a Breaking Bad writer that's coming soon, that could lift up her popularity.
Of course, there's also a Nancy Drew TV series on CBS, where Nancy isn't white.
Anne just can't win.
FUCK does anyone have a good link to Parallel Lives? All these comic sites link to awful download speeds.
>>84006831
This didn't happen.
>>84006842
Not the anon, but what's YA? Young Adult?
>>84006842
On one hand, I wonder why Nancy Drew 'broke through' and is 'familiar' to people even outside her demographics.
>>84006866
Yes.
>>84006877
As a not-American, I can say that I heard of Nancy Drew (literally only heard of her, didn't know what genre her stories are or her media until this thread) because every once in a while she is explicitly referenced in an American TV series
>>84006916
See, that's the same for me too. I've heard of Nancy Drew only from my friends who likes to play awful video games, so I assumed Nancy was like a long series of games that just got stale as it gets older.
I've learned about Anne first before Nancy, and I've never heard of Judy Bolton before this thread.
>>84005317
Look man there are some people who take Bendis hate to meme levels but I don't think the man has ever written an amazing comic. Even USM and Daredevil, which I adored in my youth, don't hold up all that well after revisiting them. He's a very formulaic writer and his best-received works are built off the foundation of previous writers and stories, something he seems to have forgotten in recent years. I personally prefer Alias, but he can't even seem to tap into that anymore. And he's such a prick about it.
Whatever his opinions on Spider-Man are, whether or not I agree with them, the dude still deserves all the shit that gets flung his way. And this is really the only site that has the balls to call him on his bullshit.
>>84006864
Not sure what the rules are in linking torrents so just go type any kickass torrent url and try this one /marvel-graphic-novel-amazing-spiderman-parallel-lives-1989-00-cbr-t12713409.html
Copy paste that on the url just to be clear.
Or search up Spiderman collection 1963-2016. It should have Parallel lives in it in the mini series section. If you dont wanna download the others just select Parallel Lives and deselect the rest.
>>84006877
Again, survey people on the street, not white male comic book readers.
Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys and The Bobbsey Twins, among others, were part of the Stratemeyer Syndicate. The books were ghost written and followed a very set formula. They were popular because they were cheap pulp. Also, the Stratemeyer Syndicate had market power and they actively moved to crush competition by choking off distribution.
Later, the titles become synonymous with a certain type of simplistic, reductive children's book. Nancy Drew became a pop culture byword for "girl detective" just as the Hardy Boys became a byword for "boy detective" simply because the Stratemeyer Syndicate flooded the market but kept competition out.
But go ahead, everyone claiming Nancy is such an icon: tell me what you know about her other than she's a girl detective. What color is her hair? Who is her boyfriend? Google cheating doesn't count.
The Nancy Drew series is dead at CBS.
>>84006974
Thanks, anon. Worked fine.
>>84005801
Fraction has outright said this
>>84005425
>That sixties flashback
>>84006831
eat shit quesadilla
>>84006976
>What color is her hair?
Blonde
>Who is her boyfriend?
Ken, duh.
me good at ladies book
>>84007001
Cool, hopefully the torrent works through and doesn't get stuck halfway.
Parallel Lives isn't a bad book, you will probably love it as it fills a lot of gaps in MJ's backstory.
(I know I'm in the minority but personally don't like the retcon of her knowing he was Spidey from the beginning) .
>>84007094
Oh shit, would love to read this. Link?
>>84007158
LOL I didn't know that. Good on you.
>>84007248
I was trying to find a link, but somehow it leads me to this.
maleficent > elsa >>>> mj
Seeing that you're all experts on this theme, I wanted to ask. What Spidey/MJ had that current Marvel ships doesn't have? Why they all fail before even starting while this one stayed for twenty years?
>>84007382
>>84007382
>Why they all fail before even starting while this one stayed for twenty years?
time
MJ was introduced in the 60s and her and pete got married in....87?
so literally 20 years of relationship building on and off
they didn't even get together as a couple until the early 80s
>>84007382
In my opinion the greatest problems the other relationships have is that the girls have literally no purpose other than being Spidey's girlfriend.
With MJ we have:
>Peter doesn't even want to meet her in the beginning
>MJ later becomes something of a Veronica to Gwen's Betty
>Peter in the end choose Betty and Veronica becomes the girlfriend of his best friend
>Gwen dies and only at this point their actual relationship begins
With the current ones we have, just to make a few examples, Carlie Cooper that is called "The perfect girl for Peter" something like the second chapter she appear in and Silk that start immediately to have sex with Spidey for some pheromone shit
>>84007344
Fuck is this? I have accidentally stumbled onto his videos before so many times. Like seriously what the hell is this??
>>84007473
>Silk that start immediately to have sex with Spidey for some pheromone shit
And she's also his clone or some shit, right? I barely remembered Spider-Verse.
>>84005271
He still is. He takes shots at OMD every chance he gets.
>>84007506
What's the most recent example you can remember?
>>84007496
No, she has no "genetical" relationship to Spidey (that would be Ultimate Spider-Woman, that was actually a rather good story)
She is "just" a girl that was bitten by the exact same spider that gave Peter his powers
>>84006595
It depends. When you first meet MJ it's a big deal. She had been an ongoing joke of never showing her face, but her reveal was huge and iconic. As time progresses so does MJ. She starts out as an airhead with 0 understanding of responsibility or repercussions, but things don't really go great for her. She starts taking a lot of hits, right about the same time Pete does. As time progresses they find they have more and more in common. They get united by the loss of their close friends and are left wondering where do they fit in? The answer is of course in each other's arms. They begin a romance that is destined to fail because Pete still doesn't know how to embrace his entire self. He lets Spider-Man dominate his life without telling anyone. As the first segment of their relationship nears the end Pete makes an attempt to grasp at falling straws and marry MJ. She turns him down and they are left wondering what could have been. What follows that is Pete learning to accept the good and the bad of Spider-Man who helps craft him into a better version of Pete. Once MJ comes back Pete is still not ready for her, but he has changed a lot. This change is apparent to MJ as she learns to count on him. Even when they get married though there is plenty of things going on to show MJ that this will not be an always happily ever after.
>>84007382
An actual seriousness to it. Most Marvel ships just exist to add tension and drama material because most heroes just go straight back to fighting shit.
Since part of Pete's focus was always on his personal life, his romantic interest in MJ got quite a bit of development.
>>84007473
Did he and Silk ever explicitly bone?
>>84007515
In Miles newest book. Peter said he hates Mephesto.
>>84007382
Marriage fag here, I tried to put it into words but I cant describe it better than the spideykicksbutt.com guy. Who summed it up easily than I ever can. Basically:
>And why Mary Jane? Well, as we've seen in this series - MJ was truly the only character who satisfied both of the requirements for a permanent companion - she was an interesting character in her own right - and her motivations for marrying our hero were entirely consistent with that character. The other female characters usually had one or more fatal flaws from either a relationship or a creative longevity stance that would have made them poor choices as a marriage partner for our hero. Also, as much as it can happen in a fictional scenario - Peter and MJ's relationship truly evolved along those lines. She wasn't created as "the girlfriend" from day one or designated as "the future wife", as Betty or Gwen were. The strength of her character literally forced its way into the foreground and the marriage was at the end of an entirely natural progression.
>>84007529
But the marriage happens despite the odds being stacked against them. Pete and MJ quickly form a good team, she knows his secret and Pete revels in having someone to be his whole self with. Of course over time there are a number of conflicts notably: Pete losing track of what good is to him, MJ being kidnapped and presumed dead for months, Pete having to struggle with dating a super star while being a nobody, Clone Saga (we don't talk about this), and finally the reality that Gwen's children might be alive. This on top of Pete struggling to keep the cash coming in and find his place, but all the while he and MJ stand together, disagreeing on many things, but knowing that they will always have each other. And then they sell their 40 years of love and understanding to Mephisto to Aunt May who died for the second time (not really the first was an actor, but who can remember such things?).
>>84007587
Wow this is genuinely the best way to put it. She wasn't meant to be the "one". She evolved into that role naturally through the writers (whether intentional or not) and that is way more believable or "Realistic" than any other love story or love interest for spider-man.
>>84007607
>Clone Saga (we don't talk about this
The Great Spider Hiatus of 1994, 1995 and 1996 sure is a very weird age in Spidey history.
>>84007382
>>84007623
> Wow this is genuinely the best way to put it. She wasn't meant to be the "one". She evolved into that role naturally through the writers (whether intentional or not) and that is way more believable or "Realistic" than any other love story or love interest for spider-man.
This anon.
>>84007632
Yeah it's just not a very good segment of time. There was a lot of confusing plans happening all at once. It has some good that came out of it, but it's funny how out of hand it got.
>>84005117
>Even JMS who apparently only disagreed with OMD due to Editorial deciding not to not resurrect Gwen Stacy for BND.
Okay WHAT? First time I ever hear about this. Spoonfeed me /co/
>>84005486
>>84005705
>>84006023
>>84005736
Here's your spoonful of explanation anon.
>>84007706
>>84007774
Sorry, here's the spoonful of explanation
>>84007706
Having MJ knowledge of Peter's secret identity being retconned to her always knowing about it makes her comment in the pic even more funny
>>84007790
Thanks, anon!
>>84006023
Is it wrong for me to want this? Do I have shit taste? Because that's honestly my favorite era of the comics.
>>84007956
Yeah, but stuff happens, as it does in real life. Golden ages don't last forever. And what we moved onto was good in it own right.
>>84007981
Too true, but seeing as at the time it'd been a good 30 years since that 'golden age', seeing it revisited doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. Unless they'd absolutely failed at capturing the feeling of it, which seems very likely.
>>84005705
Okay so JMS was okay with OMD as long as he was allowed to resurrect Gwen? How exactly would've that worked out?
>>84007956
Not at all anon. This was one of the best spidey era. The arguement however is whether we should move on fron that era and aim to do something better.
Unfortunately it feels marvel editorial is going through a colldctive midlife crisis as they try to recapture the youthful golden age.
To that I point to the Incredibles movie where the main character is going thru a midlife crisis yearning for a return to his roots of goldenage superheroics. That movies entire point is to grow up, moving on and making the best of what you have (ie your family)
This is what some fans want from Spidey.
>>84008049
idk it sounds insane. This is just an example of the bad writer in JMS. See Sins Past, Superman Grounded and Earth One
>>84008136
Wasn't Sins Past another example of "Quesadaing"?
Since having a wife and/or kids is bad but making a pact with the devil is a-ok?
>>84008136
>See Sins Past, Superman Grounded and Earth One
Don't know about the latter two, but the Sins Past he had in mind would've arguably been either better or a hellova lot worse. IMO, while the twins being his would've destroyed that 'youthful' part of Spidey the fact that in their entire relationship they never even had sex once and she got knocked up by a guy who could be her father because 'there was something about him' is just revolting.
>>84008098
>The arguement however is whether we should move on fron that era and aim to do something better.
This right here is an absolute paradox when it comes to Spider-man, seeing as many people, myself included, think that Spdey is all(mostly) about youth and the joys and hardships that come along with it, and 'moving on' from that era means moving on from being young and gradually aging.
>>84008246
Yeah it is but even without any interference Peter having artificially grown kids of Gwen is just....bad. Its as bad as the insect queen turning Peter into a giant spider who later dies and gives birth to Peter just so he can develop organic webbing level bad.
>>84008296
Yeah and thats where the two groups come in. Ones who support the unique youth factor of Spiderman and the challenges that come with it or the ones who want him to grow along with his responsibilities (marriage and then kids)
>>84005117
DeFalco likes it and apparently so does Stan Lee who is one of the reasons why Peter stayed married to MJ in the Spider-Man daily strip.
Gerry Conway says it was a mistake to get Peter married but thinks MJ is the perfect persom for Peter.
>>84008555
Still, doesn't seem like there is a lot of support for marriage among the writers.
>>84005662
thanks for the storytime anon. I really like this one. Makes me miss the Pete/MJ dynamic.
One one hand I understand that they want pete young and untethered as their perpetual everyman gateway character, but goddamn if Pete/MJ wasn't one of THE strongest marriages in comics. I love how they always have each others backs.
When you think of iconic married couples who else comes to mind?
>>84008296
Is that the curse of Young characters or Young books? I mean, Miles also started as a young hero, is he gonna be allowed to grow up or will he forever be tied to the youth era?
>>84008697
Lois and Clark
Canary and Arrow
Barda and Scott Free
I guess Elongated Man and his wife are iconic but not to me. Now these are just the names I can think of on top of my head.
Funny enough is they are all DC, the one iconic i could think of on the spot wouldve been MJ/Pete or Sue and Reed.
Janet and Hank are cool as well, so is Wanda and Vision. But thats if I try hard. Iconic status tho? Itd be MJ/Pete and Sue/Reed.
>>84008807
arthur and mera
maybe wally and linda
>>84008697
>When you think of iconic married couples who else comes to mind?
I'll be honest, first couple to come to mind always is and always will be Reed and Sue.
>>84008759
I think Miles will have the same fate as Ultimate Peter. Not as much as dying as never actually growing up.
>>84008697
Clark and Lois, Aquaman and Mera, Scott and Barda, Scott and Jean, Reed and Sue
>>84008759
Honestly curse of the young characters today is that they will be forgotten completely or killed off.
See for example:
>Nomad
>Gravity- He died AND was forgotten in that order
>Everyone from New X Men
>New Xmen from Wolverine and the Xmen book
>Lol generation X
>Arana aka anya corozan- forgotten and shoved out of the universe in web warriors
>Everyone in Avengers Academy
>Half of the runaways
and on and on I can go. A lot of fans are predicting Kamala, miles and Sam will go this route. However I think Kamala might last a little bit longer
She might eventually become irrelevant tho, she wasn't Carol Danvers first side kick youknow? That title goes to Arana.
>>84008821
Oh yea def! They are my favorite otp atm
>>84005150
I too am a marriage-fag but mostly because I think teen heroes should be sidekicks and that only grimdarks should be single.
>>84008892
difference is that Marvel wasn't actively pushing those characters like they were Miles and Kamala, nor did they have their own solo books
>>84008877
>Scott and Jean
kek
>>84008807
>>84008877
>Lois and Clark
I don't know about this one.
Sure, now they're married and have a son, but I think that by now the "iconic" element about them is a "love triangle" between those two and Superman (?), with Clark loving Lois and the girl completely uninterested in him but in love with his alter-egoLike Luthor said in ASS: She could even fall in love in Clark if there wasn't Superman
>>84008892
All depends on the movies. Movies can rescue and make franchises. See: Guardians of the Galaxy, pretty much dead franchise before the movie, critically acclaimed yes, but dead. Today they've replaced FF as the third most important franchise for the company behind Avengers and Spider-Man.
I still think the Runaways are one movie away of becoming a succesful franchise.
>>84008892
>>84008929
In my opinion they definitely should push it, to some degree.
Why should a comic book fan use his 3/4$ to buy an issue of "Unremarkably new character #5123512" when they can buy Amazing Spider-Man?
It's better to put them in some kind of team with other heroes and have them develop there until they aren't "big enough" to work alone
>>84008939
Idk I never got into that love triangle or knew it existed until a long time later. My exposure was always their OTP ness.
>>84009001
oh i agree; i think miles and kamala SHOULD be pushed
but other new characters haven't received that
>>84008996
Oh I agree on the runaways bit. I hate it that they shelved it when Avengers came out.
I am honestly hoping for Marvel to get the FF rights back so they can place them back in the top of heirarchy where they belong.
>>84006189
He said on CBR around the time of OMD, I believe, that the reason he wanted his name taken off of OMD was because he didn't like the mechanic of having Mephisto undo the marriage, nothing about what he wanted to retcon or or that he hated breaking up the marriage. You're right though, JMS is pretty much a liar and will distort things to make himself look better.
>>84008996
>I still think the Runaways are one movie away of becoming a successful franchise.
They are literally built for a Netflix series. Hell, Brian K Vaughn does a lot of TV work in general too.
>>84006665
>you've had the character "grow" into just a different character.
And that's bad because? That's what happens to people in real life.
>MUH CHARLIE BROWN
Fuck off, Slott.
>>84007981
>And what we moved onto was good in it own right.
Who are you kidding? Almost everything about post-OMD Spider-Man was unreadable garbage, partly because it "moved on" from enjoyable character interactions it established over the years to pale imitation of Stan Lee's style.
>>8400726
are you serious or did you not realize the answers are referring to Barbie? Who is also an icon. But no one wants to read about her, either.
>>84007632
Haha I stop earlier than that at the first Carnage story and at Harrys Death. Afterwards we get the nonsensical Peters parents are alive story that goes nowhere.
Its easier to cope that way.
>>84005832
>Yeah the thing is they tried to introduce something similar to that in Ben Reilly. However editorial fucked it up in execution.
The "execution" being writing out Peter. Spider-Man is Peter Parker, you can't make a new guy Spider-Man and then write out Peter period. Ben was a popular character which is likely why editorial thought they could get away with writing out Peter (and thus the marriage and going back to a single Peter even if "Peter" was Ben) and lo and behold it didn't work.
>>84007515
In Iron Man, MJ tells Tony she is at the lowest point in her life and when Tony says he doesn't believe her, MJ says "Tell it to my soul."
>>84009100
>Who are you kidding? Almost everything about post-OMD Spider-Man was unreadable garbage, partly because it "moved on" from enjoyable character interactions it established over the years to pale imitation of Stan Lee's style.
You misunderstand me. I meant the golden age before Gwen died. At some point Peter moved on and got into a serious relationship with Mary Jane, and that was just as good as the golden age, just different. We're on the same side. Marvel needs to stop living in the golden age of Pete's life and realize that him and MJ had great stories together.
>>84008996
Coincidentally, Marvel's young Trinity represents each of those franchises.
Miles - Spider-man
Kamala - Avengers
Sam - Guardians of the galaxy
>>84009145
What does this mean? That she feels that spiritually something's missing?
Also, has she and Tony fugged?
>>84009150
Ah, sorry then. I need to stop being this impulsive when it comes to the whole Spider-Man thing.
I'm pro Spider-Man marriage with MJ even though I hate an idea of marriage myself
Just don't let them have kids and you can write almost any kind of stories
>>84009163
>That she feels that spiritually something's missing?
That's what it's supposed to mean.
>Also, has she and Tony fugged?
Not yet
>>84005616
>>84005623
>>84005641
Man, Civil War really did fuck SHIELD, Tony, and the heroes that sided with it. Agreeing with the law is one thing, but when you have government agents shooting at women with no powers, and some of the other shit that went down, you really do make the whole thing go down in flames.
>>84009150
You know people like to describe it as the golden age but was it really? I've read so many accounts of that time where a lot of readers were turned off on how stagnant spidey was getting.
Enter Conway who felt the same thing and then decided to kill of Gwen as a result.
It makes me think that a lot of these fanboys clamoring for this golden age are looking through rose tinted glasses.
>>84009224
Stan Lee certainly thought it was stagnating, which is why Gwen died.
>>84009181
Perfect example is the Spiderman Newspaper strip that follows the same pattern.
We just need good spider marriage writers.
>>84006665
If a character keep making the same mistake, what's the point of growing. Hell what's the point of having continuity. Just reboot the whole thing every ten years if you wanna tell the same stories over and over again. That's what movies do, and people eat them all the time.
Comics is truly the weirdest business in history. You want to have a history but don't want your characters to grow up and change. Even fucking profesional wrestling is forced to move on and change when their wrestlers get old and retire or die. Comics are trapped in a constant loop where everyone ends up cucking each other because MUH CORE.
>>84009247
I heard Stan regretted it due to angry fans literally screaming st his face that he begged Conway to bring Gwen back much to his annoyance. Enter the first Clone Saga! Which wasn't even that bad... especially compared to its shitty 90s sequel.
>>84009275
Yeah this is where I think DC constantly rebooting their universe makes sense when u compsre it to marvel shittily retconning their stuff.
>>84008659
There never is. It's called the "Moonlighting Syndrome." Back in the day, the writers of the Moonlighting TV series gave into fan demand and the character played by Bruce Willis and Cybill Shepherd had sex. The show tanked almost immediately after and they blamed the relationship.
It's far easier for writers if the characters are single because they can do cheap relationship drama of breakups and new love interests and "oh do you think he/she likes me?!" Also, in western literature marriage is often seen as the end game "and then they got married and lived happily ever after." This is slowly changing as TV audiences demand faster pacing and so writers burn through more story in less time, so we see couples get married on TV and the show survive. But for writers raised in a certain time period on certain "rules" of writing, they will always shy away from marriage or even committed relationships.
>>84009298
Glad she stayed dead then and Stan stuck with it. It's one of the most recognizable deaths in comics for a reason and that's because she doesn't fucking come back.
>>84009247
This and the fact that MJ always was, and still is his favorite not only love interest, but non-powered character too. Not that that's a bad thing.
I sometimes wonder what Stan thinks about comics in which Gwen is depicted as Peter's 'true love', for example Peter's hypnosis/dream world in MC2 and House of M, in both of which Peter was given his 'ideal world' and he was married to Gwen in both of them.
>>84009347
You can see this in a lot of current shows as well. Where the writers have to focus on other characters because the married ones don't have much drama anymore. No doubt its from the same shitty time period mindset. Look at HIMYM or Friends for example.
That being said modern shows are definitely stepping up their A game. Look at Breaking Bad' walter whites relationship with his wife or parks and rec where all the characters got together fairly early on. They were all still awesome and interesting!
It shows writing married couples can be done well!
>>84009387
As a longtime reader I can easily say thats more out of guilt than anything else.
In House of M his uncle Ben was alive! It clearly makes sense he gets together or imagines Gwen alive in these realities dur to his crippling guilt of failing her.
If that doesn't convince you Conways original Clone Saga basically had Peter realize that he wasn't the clone due to him having feelings for MJ and the clone still having feelings for Gwen. It was one of the biggest and most important sign of him finally moving on.
>>84009347
That us kind of BS especially since there has been good stories that involve a married couple including stories with Spider-Marriage.
The fact that some writers can't write a married couple is another thing, hell right now I will take JMS Spider-Marriage over Slott's single Peter Parker and his lucklaster relationship with women, even the way he portrays Peter with MJ, ughhh.
>>84008659
Yeah because most of them didn't write Spider-Marriage or were part of the ones trying to get rid of it, DeFalco and JMS liked it and it showed when they wrote some of the best Spider-Marriage stories out there.
I want to know Stan Lee's opinion of it though since he officiated a public wedding of Spidey and MJ with actors, he didn’t like OMD, and MJ and Peter are still married in the daily comic strip that has his name on it.
>>84009509
I remember that, but it seems like writers choose to ignore it nowadays. It's like after Spider-man: Blue Gwen's been pushed more and more into relevance at every chance.
>>84008807
And boy do Lois and Clark have their marriage haters too but at this point Lois and Clark beinf OTP is ingrained in people's minds more than Spider-Man and MJ.
>>84009625
>I want to know Stan Lee's opinion of it thoug
>he officiated a public wedding of Spidey and MJ with actors,
>he didn’t like OMD, and
>MJ and Peter are still married in the daily comic strip that has his name on it.
i think you do know his opinion, lol
>>84009163
They won't under Bendis at least because he OTPs Peter and MJ.
Only reason he snatched MJ for his IM title was because Slott wasn't using her and he wanted to, just like how he has Kitty in GotG, he wants to write Jews in Space with her and Ben more than write an actual GotG comic.
>>84009662
Which is insane because if anything Spiderman Blue should be reaffirming the fans that MJ is his OTP. The whole point of that story was the tragic aspect part with hints of Peter/MJ relationship that was inevitably yet to come
>>84009674
>>he officiated a public wedding of Spidey and MJ with actors,
>>he didn’t like OMD, and
>>MJ and Peter are still married in the daily comic strip that has his name on it.
Is Stan "The Man" Lee the biggest MJfag out there?
>>84009674
Makes sense that with all of that he is in favor of Spider-Marriage although I would like to hear him say it.
>>84009753
yes
>>84009773
i dont think you need to hear him spell it out
its pretty clear
>>84009672
Yeah Im a Spider fag but LoisXClark haters annoy me way more than PeterxMJ. Mostly because the haters want him to ship with Wonder Woman mostly because they both are "strong"?
Like holy shit isn't that a bit creepy? Forget the fact WW is her one character with her own mythos and stories. Forget the fact that past writers have developed their relationship as something as more of good siblings! Or that their personalities are so different it wouldn't make sense to put them together!
The only reason she should be with Supes is because supes wont break her when he ejaculates his super jizz into her. Like What the fuck? Women in Kleenix essay was even meant to be a fucking joke that no one should take seriously. HOLY CRAP
