remember when feminism was equally as heavy-handed as it is today, but the story was so good you didn't care?
fuck, mulan was awesome.
i mean we know the media has never understood the word "subtle" but why can't they at least propagate their shit in an entertaining way anymore?
I really need to get around to watching Mulan 2. I heard the plot is comically bad and its Extremely Goofy Movie tier in terms of dank reaction images
>>83790086
never watched it either. fuck it, that's what kickass is for, downloading
>bait
I know but let's get this out of the way in the first post
>Mulan is an ancient story, not a new age story
>Her motivation wasn't to prove girls can fight, it was to save her father from being drafted
>She wasn't supposed to be stronger than the men, she just played her strengths, which was being clever, and it makes sense for her to be smart since her family was well off
She was just a likeable and selfless character
>>83790086
>I really need to get around to watching Mulan 2.
No you don't.
>I heard the plot is comically bad
No, it's worse.
>and its Extremely Goofy Movie tier in terms of dank reaction images
Yeah, can't disagree with that part.
>>83790047
>remember when feminism was equally as heavy-handed as it is today, but the story was so good you didn't care?
The fundamental difference was that Mulan didn't bad mouth any of the men in the camp just because they were men
>>83790147
>>Her motivation wasn't to prove girls can fight, it was to save her father from being drafted
Not entirely true. That was the catalyst but her real motivation was to gain self respect
>>83790147
oh well excuse the shit out of me for not being familiar with ancient chinese folktales. the rest of your post is your personal interpretation of events.
"one man may see an image, and call it black. another may see the same image, and call it white"-
>mulan was a feminist movie
I'm just gonna point you over to this guy >>83790147
Let's just post songs, shall we?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64
>>83790147
>She wasn't supposed to be stronger than the men
So...feminism. The actual definition, not the /pol/ack definition.
>>83790293
>oh well excuse the shit out of me for not being familiar with ancient chinese folktales
But that was her entire motivation in the film, dummy.
How would Mulan look today?
Shit some animator needs to make 2016 Mulan
>>83790047
Her comrades are all amazed and perplexed.
Traveling together for twelve years
They didn't know Mu-lan was a girl.
"The he-hare's feet go hop and skip,
The she-hare's eyes are muddled and fuddled.
Two hares running side by side close to the ground,
How can they tell if I am he or she?"
-- Poem of Mulan, written btw. 386 and 533 A.D., China
That modern Western feminism, right?
>>83790147
And yet it does more for female empowerment than "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT HOW INDEPENDENT AND TOUGH I AM. I HAVE A VAGINA!"
A character that solely exists to propagate a specific worldview is always shit and boring. And what's even worse is when they reduce a pre-existing character to author mouthpiece.
That's why I can't stand the way modern comics are written. Zero subtext, and they derail the entire narrative to wag a finger at the audience and go "Racism/sexism/homophobia is bad, m'kay." or some other self evident bullshit. And for what purpose? To score brownie points with the fucking barista, that makes your soy latte?
TELL A FUCKING STORY!
Mulan is a good example of a message being coupled with a character and story without it hampering or drowning out either. But I guess that was in a time before tumblr.
>>83790147
/thread
>>83790448
to be fair though man, you haven't seen my barista. she is smokin'
>>83790448
You don't even know what you are talking about. You are just an idiot who can't pick on story and character cues.
>>83790527
FUCK! Forget that. I AM the idiot, I misread the first line.
>>83790522
why are they always like that? it's almost like starbucks has some kind of agenda
can we shelve the feminism talk for a second to discuss how hot the girls who make out coffee are?
>>83790047
See, this is the difference between 2nd-wave and 3rd-wave feminism.
Mulan came out when feminists demanded respect and equal rights for women and wanted female characters to be shown as equal to men, not the same as.
Right now the 3rd wave demands legal supremacy and pity-points from society, which to cash in for advantages as needed. They want female characters to absolutely perfect and beyond reproach from men, but God help you if you dare find such a goddess sexy!
If you actually look at what happens, the movie is surprisingly enough holding true to Confucian doctrine. Which is why she does not take a high office at court but goes home to care for her father. Because that is what was regarded the virtuous thing to do. Note that a guy would have been expected to do the same. At least in the eyes of Confucian teaching.
LETS GET DOWN TO BUSINESS
>>83790047
The quality of the story is irreverent at this point. The Internet is so radically politicised that the story actually being good or bad is secondary to the politics around it.
If Disney released Mulan exactly as it was today, you would have 4chan retards screaming about how its evil feminist propaganda and anyone who dislike it was a cuck a you'd have Tumblr screaming about how she's still defined by her romance to a man at the end and how its all dirty cis scum bullshit, along with a thousand thinkpieces about her being used as a trans ally.
I know 4chan and especially /co/ likes to think they they care more about the quality of something then then the gender or racial politics but that's blatant bullshit. The Internet itself has been mutated to the point that only the loudest voices on either side can be heard.
>>83790659
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGMN-gNfdaY
>>83790708
I so hate that i see your point...
>>83790448
Before it was tumblr is was Gaia forums, live journal, MySpace, what have you. This will never be new.
>>83790708
it's true but you can't deny that the quality of "feminist" media has taken a nosedive in the past few years
>>83790708
Did people yell that Zootopia was feminist propaganda on here? I avoided all the threads because I didn't watch it.
>>83790448
Mulan is a steeped in ancient Chinese sensibilities, though.
Her motivation is filial piety, a core doctrine of Confucianism.
Disney just painted over any notions too at odds with modern ideals.
Except that she basically goes back to the fucking kitchen in the end which is baffling from a modern viewpoint.
>>83790708
You are a gentleman and a scholar. I don't think I've ever seen a post on this god forsaken site worded so well.
>>83790047
>fuck, mulan was awesome.
More like China was hilariously shit-tier in it.
>An avalanch kills all the mooks in the Mongol army
>the surviving five or six face characters still successfully besiege Beijing, army can't do shit until chinese face characters show up
>>83790786
once you defeat Shan Yu(Genghis/Kublai Khan) you ain't got shit to prove, son. she can be in the kitchen if she wants
>>83790708
Nah, tumblr would be upset that they took a lesbian with a beautiful mixed romance and made her into a dirty cishet who can only love her own race.
>>83790775
No, they just went right to the race war allegory. And shipping.
But it's basically similar to Mulan in that it has a message of working with what you have to get what you want, judging people by their deeds, not their looks, etc.
I am just surprised that tumblr tarts don't catch on to the many points it makes against their ideology. Which just shows how little they care for it when they can't make it a weapon.
>>83790775
Nah, they yelled about it being Furry Propaganda.
>>83790833
With the recent stuff with Pidge from Voltron I'm sure tumblr would be convinced that Mulan was a man all along, and was a MtF that was living his life as a woman and fought in the army to prove that a transperson could fight in the ancient chinese army.
>>83790872
>No, they just went right to the race war allegory. And shipping.
Not surprising, as the race stuff was pretty prominent though I also see it as a bit of a class thing too.
>>83790873
This is also not surprising.
>>83790786
She saved China, she has every right to do whatever she wants.
Though in IRL, it's been told that she killed herself after the new emperor wanted to make her his concubine.
>>83790773
Sure, but that's less to do about actual feminism and more to do about trends. Being inclusionary to a fault is the hot new trend like Nolan-esaue gritty angst was five years ago and over-the-top masculinity was in the 90's.
Like all trends, it'll pass in a few years.
>>83790775
I never saw it, but people were too busy jerking off to the bunny to talk about gender politics in the threads that I saw.
>>83790735
Actually now that I think about it it would be even worse, because ever since The Force Awakens we have the fresh new meme of every hyper-competent female character being instantly labelled as a Mary Sue.
So you would have ten thousand "Mulan is a Mary Sue" threads with the OP image being the webm of Mulan flicking the sword out of Shan Yu's hand with the fan.
>>83790047
It wasn't "feminism" because it didn't try to suggest that every woman can or should be like her, it was just a story about one particular extraordinary woman.
>>83790811
Sure, but from a Western perspective you would expect her to serve the state in some fashion and get her father to come to the capital, not go make sammiches which she is now far overqualified for.
>>83790872
i did like how the anit-stereotype movie was filled with southern rednecks, donut eating incompetent cops, actually sneaky weasels, actually slow sloths, actually cunning foxes, etc.
STEREOTYPES ARE TRUE PEOPLE, THEY'RE TRUUUUUE
some things are just too poerful for progess
>>83790786
>Except that she basically goes back to the fucking kitchen in the end which is baffling from a modern viewpoint.
Feminism is about allowing Women to have every right that Men have. If she wanted to go back to the kitchen, then that's her choice. In the movie, at least, she never wanted to go to war or any shit like that, she did it because her dad had a snowball's chance in hell of living through a single battle with the Huns.
>>83790953
>southern rednecks
Who turned out to be a good person.
>donut eating incompetent cops
But he's also a sweet guy.
>actually sneaky weasels
Nothing to say there.
>actually slow sloths
Flash tho.
>actually cunning foxes
Yes, but he became a cop.
>>83790708
I see your argument, and I agree that there's definitely more divisiveness, but I disagree with the core thesis, particularly the dualisim. Particularly pre release, you will absolutely see shitflinging, but over time, other aspects, like quality and rule 34 become more important.
Stephen universe, Ms Marvel, Miles Spiderman got a lot of very contentious screaming threads, particularly early on, but eventually settled down. The first two are regarded fairly highly by /co/, and miles is mixed but generaly at least "ok"..
>>83790775
There were /pol/ smokers early, but they quieted down very quickly. They were more focused on the race riot. Oh, and furries. I lurk trash and you could literally sense the great sphincter of the super dedicated release on that one.
>>83790953
If there's one thing I'm reminded of, watching the last 9 months or so unfold, is to not underestimate the power of memes.
>>83790708
>An entire musical sequence of a man beating combat and survival skills into a woman
Nah, I don't think so. But then, if Mulan was released today, that whole section would be skipped since she would take to combat within the first few minutes and show up all the silly boys with a smug grin on her face, single eyebrow raised.
>>83790991
In theory. But a character has no choice. The writer makes the choice.
So anything not MAXIMUM EMPOWERING can and will be bitched over.
And you make the mistake to assume the point of feminism hasn't changed in the last years. It's no longer about equality, but about bankrolling an outrage-machine.
>>83790873
It was though. You can't deceive me, furfag!
>>83791043
true. girl power characters are mary sueish these days
>>83790953
But aren't sloths really slow tho?
>>83790914
>we have the fresh new meme
Dude, this has been a thing since many years before TFA
For that matter, Rey was a total mary sue
>>83791064
Yeah, but they are a joke about a broken system, not a statement about sloths.
And Flash is actually speeding something fierce.
>>83791064
sure, but just because something is true doesn't mean it's not racist. it's 2016
>>83790786
>Except that she basically goes back to the fucking kitchen in the end which is baffling from a modern viewpoint.
She doesn't go back to the kitchen so much in the original as just eventually returns to the more simple argricultural life both men and woman lived after her fighting for over a decade (15 yrs?),,,as did the male warriors as well, eventually. You can't lead that life forever, man or woman.
>>83790047
Ironically the original was much more feminist and so-called "progressive" than that Disney crap (cute songs and good villain though). 1,500 years later...
>>83790522
Lucky you. The one that is after my dick is someone I would want to avoid.
>>83790928
The west needs to stop thinking all fullfilment is linked to escalating the oligarch's staircase to nowhere.
>>83790231
Mulan made out all the men to be idiots for a majority of the movie. Only in the end when they literally become women do they become useful in fighting the mongols
>>83790448
>>83790522
>>83791216
>baristas
east/west coast metrosexual loons
it's a person that pours coffee. the coffee should be black. the end.
>>83791286
for some inexplicable reason, they're actually the huns. guess because the mongols are still around and could get offended
>>83791162
>Ironically the original was much more feminist
You mean the story of how the daughter of a family of foreign fighter/colonists living in a recently conquered land disguises herself as a male so that their king won't disenfranchise her household for its inability to perform their milita duty?
Clearly feminist as fuck that one, yes.
>>83791286
They were last minute draftees formed during a desperate war. Of course they were a motley band of fucktards.
>>83791382
Uh yes, how is that not feminist? She performs her duty to her family and fulfills her role to fight as a man would do. The original poem ends on the note that the difference between male and female is not clear, hence a message of general equality. In the year 400 or so, as has popped up at times since writing began (the first known author was a Mesopotamian woman writing about her political troubles).
Original feminism is just about the general equality of the sexes, nothing more.
>>83791477
#rememberwhenfeminismmadesense
#1500yearsago
Nothing is subtle anymore. People are too busy on their phones to not notice anything that isn't slapping them in the face.
>>83791510
Early 1900s.
>>83791549
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEInZnbXHCE
>>83790147
> She wasn't supposed to be stronger than the men
Except for during the training montage where it was shown that she outdid every guy in training after getting the arrow?
>>83791633
the other guys were two fatties and a skinny 4channer. she never outdid the hunky guy
>>83791633
Except you also see Ling, Yao and Chien Po doing the same.
>>83791660
There were other normal background characters shown there aside from the comic relief guys.
> she never outdid the hunky guy
Yes she did, she was shown running ahead of the entire group including him when they were carrying weights, and she knocked him down while they were sparring.
>>83791583
Uh the point of the video is the rich asshole is a huge classist dick, the poor women is working her ass off to support her family because she's poor and she has to work all the goddamn time, the rich guy can sit on his ass and read about this shit and spew his opinions everywhere all damn day. Way to totally misread the scene. Points to him to to humiliate people living in poverty for his amusement, Nucky is uncomfortable because that's exactly where he same from.
>>83791681
Only the fat one was shown leading the group when they were jumping over the water poles.
Point is Mulan was shown being directly better than the other guys there even though she's a woman and of a pretty small build.
>>83790047
Fuck why could they use this cover for the Blu Ray?
>>83791721
is was posting it as comedy sis, relax. i'm all for female empowerment trust me, you should see my porn folder.
/co/ - Politics
>>83791843
when the comics (M A R V E L) bring the politics to us, why not?
>>83791862
>>83791873
i have no complaints against that. i read that issue. the guy in question is a lunatic who though a pop-star(let thst sin in, a pop-star-we all know how pop-stars become pop-stars) was some virginal deific girl that would be "tainted" by appearing in a fucking boxing movie. MANSPLAINING rambling ensues, says a man
>>83791477
>Uh yes, how is that not feminist?
Because it's steppe people we're talking about, the sort of folks who have a history of not confirming to settled folks' norms on anything, inculding the issue of murdering family members. Plus in her context, it was a class issue. Their family was part of a class who got land and access to political institutions in return for military service, but the state didn't even particularily care who rendered that service as long as somebody showed up and shot arrows at somebody else on command. Were it a gender issue, her being a war hero wouldn't have done shit for her family because they ultimately still did not send a male.
>>83790610
Mulan came out during third wave feminism.
Watch yourselves, the Hillary shills might be attracted to here.
>>83792773
Stop shit posting
>>83791286
>Mulan made out all the men to be idiots for a majority of the movie.
Only the three comic relief and the eunuch. Not her dad, Chang, his dad or the Emperor.
>>83791286
Chang doesn't dress as a woman not is he made to be an idiot during the plot.
>>83790300
Mulan was clearly a feminist movie, just the kind that existed before the perverse corruption that calls itself feminism today
>>83790086
I won't sugarcoat it, I watched Mulan 2 and I think it is great. The simple artstyle works wonders, since the sequel doesn't seem low budget. The characters are still funny.
>>83793090
The plot is boring and unimaginative though and everyone is stupid and has no understanding of the situation beyond immediate future. And as far as I remember the whole thing could've been easily avoided with a short conversation, this is never an acceptable excuse for a whole movie.
>>83793015
Feminism has always been shit
ALWAYS
>>83790326
I doubt it's /pol/ack who make angry tweets when women are even implied to be weaker than men.
>>83792894
>Chang doesn't dress as a woman
Damn shame.
>>83790047
>Death battle did an analysis on her
If Mulan get's into a death battle, which cross dresser should she fight?
>>83793338
Lady Oscar
>>83790047
Mulan isn't heavy handed feminism, it just teaches kids that females don't always have to be dainty limp-wristed bitches.
>>83793548
Mulan would lose so hard.
I mean, a French noblewoman of the 18th century, trained like man all her life and living as a soldier VS an 11th century Chinese official's daughter with basic weapons training and fitness.
Without plot armor, the froguette takes this easily she has guns, ffs.
>>83790047
I loved Mulan as kid, but when I saw the sequel I just straight up thought they fucked up her character. It's been forever since I saw it, I just don't want to see it again.
Also this plus Ouran High School gave me a reverse trap kink.
>>83793875
Before or after they turn Mulan into a 'man'? Before: of course she's no match.
After: Lady Oscar would a more even match and portable rocket launcher + Bow and Arrow used by skilled archer >>>>>>>>>>smooth bore fire arms.
>>83790925
>one particular extraordinary woman
But women are a collective now, didn't you know?
Every single female character is a representative of the entire female gender.
>>83790928
Is every person who shoots a gun at an enemy soldier qualified for a government position?
She lived through a war, that doesn't mean she should start dictating national affairs.
>>83794285
>soldier qualified for a government position?
If you listen to what military types say then yes but I think they may be a bit bias.
>>83790047
feminist at the time hated it though.
>>83790047
Feminists didn't like this movie because she had to pretend to be a man for half of it.
>>83794285
She proved some genius and saved the country. Then they offered her a high position (which says nothing about her factual duties, could be purely ceremonial ).
In any case I would call national heroes overqualified for domestic duties by default.
Unless you are Forest Gump or live in Liechtenstein.
>>83793338
Bridget?
>>83790047
was it really heavy handed in Mulan?
>>83790293
ah, fuck you for being such a troll
>>83790991
then why it's called feminISM?
Women were a mistake
- God
It's not gay if Ping dresses like a girl, right?
>>83798219
It's only gay if you enjoy it
>>83790047
Mulan wan't heavy-handed though.
>Father was going to die if drafted, so she had no choice but to take his place
>Gets the living shit kicked out of her, back when movies were made that actually ALLOWED female characters to fail
>she makes a lot of stupid mistakes and has to be bailed out by men all the time
>works hard though her training and earns her place in the military through her own hard work, not being handed things like modern feminists want simply because she is a woman
It was Feminist in the sense that it's not cancerous 3rd wave feminism that dictates female superiority, but reasonable feminism that advocates for equality, and there's nothing wrong with that.
>>83798219
>>83798247
someone post the gay Shang copypasta
>>83793194
Asking to be able to vote, own things you bought, and not be beaten is shit?
>>83790170
>>83790086
Completely accurate.
>>83790047
I'm writing a story featuring a white woman and a nonwhite man as the MCs.
Which one are the SJs going to prefer?
>>83791286
They saved Mulan, Chang and the horse from going over the cliff.
>>83790047
This never registered as feminism with me.
It was just the story of a girl fighting for those she wanted to protect and making her way through hard effort and cunning (albeit aided by a little lizard).
I wished movies were like this again. Without the "ALL MEN ARE EVIL" angle.
I love Mulan.
>>83791746
Because she became sharper than the sharpies and smarter than the smarties. She trained.
Her loser friends are also improving during that montage. Everybody else is just backdrop.
>>83790914
Mulan is instantly recognizable as not being a Mary Sue, though. She eats monumental amounts of shit until she pulls through.
Rey doesn't even have a backstory except LEL ABANDONED and can literally do more than Asthmatic Cyber Force Jesus, his son and his demonic master MC Spin Shout Sheev.
>>83802399
I was willing to forgive her being able to pilot ships because she knew their schematics from parts, but there's no excuse for Rey being able to do a Jedi mind trick with no prior training.
>>83790908
There is no IRL. Hua Mulan was always a fictional character.
>>83791746
dude
>>83802467
Alternatively she has been a survivor of Ben's rage when he wrecked Luke's school, having had years of training as a padawan but her memories sealed away when abandoned on Jakku. Remember who she was left with. The damn slave driver she sells her scrap to. Wonder why he makes bad prices for her? Probably because he's a dick. But maybe because he has orders to keep her there where she is safely hidden from all.
It also explains Ben's interest in her if she is familiar to him, whether he recognises her or not.
And it could be the key to why Luke ran away. Say Ben went full Dark Side and murdered a bunch of kids that were Luke's children, the children of dear friends etc. He could likely look nobody in the eye anymore and ran from the pain of it all, leaving Rey in bad, but secure care to dodge the long arm of the dark side.
