Hey /co/ you ever feel as most young people experience superheroes for the first time through animated cartoons and live action films, that leads them to feeling comic books are inadequate and incomplete, or overly complex and inaccessible?
What do you actually want from a superhero comic book in the year 2016?
>>83647634
Lesbian wonder woman and trap supergirl
>>83647634
Not necessarily. Sometimes it works on their favor. I got into comic books by watching Batman and Superman TAS and the Burton Batman movies, and then got amazed as how big these character histories were, how complex the mythology was and how the adaptations paled in comparison to everything the source material had to offer. There's quite nothing like the larger than life nature of these characters in any medium. It's one of the appeals that make comic books unique.
>>83647749
This. People want these characters to be like everything else. The magic is that they are unlike anything else.
>>83647687
>Lesbian wonder woman and trap supergirl
Hit the presses!
>>83647749
>Not necessarily. Sometimes it works on their favor. I got into comic books by watching Batman and Superman TAS and the Burton Batman movies, and then got amazed as how big these character histories were, how complex the mythology was and how the adaptations paled in comparison to everything the source material had to offer. There's quite nothing like the larger than life nature of these characters in any medium. It's one of the appeals that make comic books unique.
I have a similar history, however I have often found the kind of Batman stories I enjoyed, with just Batman and Alfred, particularly the Legends of the Dark Knight era stuff, are the kinds of comics not regularly produced by DC anymore.
Having been a regular comic book fan for years, I repeatedly see a lot of false starts and hard stops withe secondary characters that make me feel like DC (and by extension Marvel) would fair better by just doubling down on the major characters they already have.
>>83647634
>Hey /co/ you ever feel as most young people experience superheroes for the first time through animated cartoons and live action films, that leads them to feeling comic books are inadequate and incomplete, or overly complex and inaccessible?
No.
>What do you actually want from a superhero comic book in the year 2016?
Depends on the genre.
>>83647634
>What do you actually want from a superhero comic book in the year 2016?
Characters whose personalities and lives change slowly and gradually as a logical response to their continuity.
Also, for people to stop redesigning costumes to look more "realistic".
>>83647793
Alright, but isn't that sort of acknowledging the "pieces on the chess board" kind of rule to cape comics that the buying audience seems to have no tolerance for?
Like Matt Fraction joked but wasn't really joking that he could do anything in Hawkeye except not have a story end without a fight. Or like prior to Rebirth the Finches' Wonder Woman felt like it was a tie-in viral marketing comic for the upcoming movie, rather than anything with creative integrity.
I just don't know how viable that kind of thing is supposed to be, or how it can be expected to continue in the modern world.
>>83648229
>Depends on the genre.
Like, if Marvel/DC only made comics you wanted to buy, what comics would you want from Marvel/DC?
>>83648277
>Characters whose personalities and lives change slowly and gradually as a logical response to their continuity.
Superman Secretly Identity and Red Son both pursued their premises to their internally logical conclusions, does every character need that? Should DC pursue that with every character?
Right, but how do you face that for certain characters, like Oliver Queen during Mike Grell's Longbow Hunter time on the comic, he basically pursued every organic kind of character growth Oliver Queen was ever gonna get?
Like isn't Green Arrow Rebirth really the equivalent of a remake or Greatest Hits Album for the character?
When the character has been reset so many times, how long is really viable for a comic to maintain that? After 200 issues, 300 issues, doesn't the weight of continuity inevitably implode as writers, artists, and even editors and company owners leave the comic?
>Also, for people to stop redesigning costumes to look more "realistic".
That's a fair opinion.
>>83647634
>What do you actually want from a superhero comic book in the year 2016?
Superdomination
>>83648582
That's because you're a cuck.
>>83648636
>Anon doesn't identify with Maxima
What are you, some kinda cishet malefag?
>>83648582
>Superdomination
That's been done.
It is specifically Superman or can the whole Super family join in?
>>83648636
>cuck.
>>83648664
>cishet malefag?
Do I go to your home and shit in your bed?
>>83648670
Hopefully Kara and Lois can get dommed
>>83648520
Life doesn't have a conclusion, though. Ollie and Dinah could get married and have a kid, get older, gradually let Connor Hawke have more and more screentime until it's his book and it happened organically rather than feeling like an abrupt replacement like legacy characters usually are.
Just stop rebooting and let things happen naturally, y'know?
>>83648756
No love for Jimmy Olsen? Or Domination, rather?
>>83648365
I can't really answer that, I'm old, I'm tired of the big 2, I don't care about their monthly garbage anymore, I'm not their target audience anymore.
I don't care about the book that tells "the next adventure of Batman", I only want to read "an extraordinary adventure of Batman".
Freedom from continuity. Every author's work should be regarded as its own universe. They can refer between one another if they like, and I don't even care if certain changes are applied everywhere, but no more changes to story to satisfy editorial mandates regarding canon.
>>83648702
>Do I go to your home and shit in your bed?
>>83647687
Well, Earth One Wonder Woman was gay. She had a girlfriend.
>>83648793
I want Supergirl to rape Jimmy and post videos of the assault online.
>>83648780
>Life doesn't have a conclusion, though. Ollie and Dinah could get married and have a kid, get older, gradually let Connor Hawke have more and more screentime until it's his book and it happened organically rather than feeling like an abrupt replacement like legacy characters usually are.
What if the sales begin to flag and the book is cancelled or editorial demands a story shakeup? Isn't what I'm describing the exact scenario that has happened hundreds of times before? Isn't it in vain to hope that will somehow change?
What if the quality of the book is such that readers really only do want Ollie stories, and will have exponentially less interest in Connor?
>Just stop rebooting and let things happen naturally, y'know?
I worry that the buying audience for comics is mostly propped up by in the films, rather than vice versa.
>>83648806
>I can't really answer that, I'm old, I'm tired of the big 2, I don't care about their monthly garbage anymore, I'm not their target audience anymore.
>I don't care about the book that tells "the next adventure of Batman", I only want to read "an extraordinary adventure of Batman".
So if DC decided tomorrow to publish "an extraordinary adventure of Batman" what would you want that to be like? New villain, old? Supporting characters?
>>83648931
I'm only describing what I want from books as an individual, not the harsh reality of having to woo new readers all the damn time.
>>83648861
>Freedom from continuity. Every author's work should be regarded as its own universe. They can refer between one another if they like, and I don't even care if certain changes are applied everywhere, but no more changes to story to satisfy editorial mandates regarding canon.
What if sales plummet and it becomes clear the only real buying audience for comics are the hardcore fans interested in "official" continuity? Like how DC's Convergence and DCYou sold badly?
>>83648806
This is how I feel. Especially with DC. DC often works best for me when a writer with a big idea is given the creative liberty to produce it rather than be bogged down by continuity. Nearly all of their best stories are one-offs.
>>83648975
>I'm only describing what I want from books as an individual, not the harsh reality of having to woo new readers all the damn time.
Fair enough, but to repeat my question, how long do you consider that viable? 200 issues?
At what point would another monumental superhero story end? Don't they all in fact eventually end?
>>83649024
But DCYou and Convergence are the exact kind of garbage I'm talking about. Obsession with continuity, whether old or new, is the truest cancer of comics.
That said, I get your point, and in response I say fuck it. I understand sales are the only things bringing me new comics, but ultimately that's not what I care about. I care about the strength of the individual narrative, and you shouldn't need to worry too much about whether or not one character could be here or is dead in another title or whatever. They can pretend to have an official continuity, let writers do whatever they want, and then declare something as canon or not after the fact.
Even that's a waste of time though. Each and every fan has their own internal canon.
>normies shit on dc because of the movies even though DC has better comics
Fucking normies REEEEE
>>83649196
Fuck off consolefag.
>>83648969
All of those are up to the authors, a good team could craft a fantastic Batman vs Crazy Quilt tale, or use literal donut steeles and make gold (like Multiversity). Those aspects are not relevant to me.
What I don't want is to read tie-ins, no "aftermath" (unless it's another extraordinary adventure), no "frontline", no "you can't kill this character because he's alive in his own title", etc.
>>83649029
>Nearly all of their best stories are one-offs.
But their monthly comics make them the most money short-run, which keeps the lights on.
So you're basically in favor of "fewer, better books" from DC?
>>83649212
>consolefag
Say that to my fucking face peasant
>>83649231
Not that Anon, but what you just said is music to my ears.
>>83649310
Good lord, /pol/ *and* /v/ memes? How about "fuck off retard".
>>83649231
Quality over quantity shouldn't even be an argument
>>83649168
>They can pretend to have an official continuity, let writers do whatever they want, and then declare something as canon or not after the fact.
Isn't that already what Marvel does?
>Even that's a waste of time though. Each and every fan has their own internal canon.
True enough, it has been pointed out to me that a lot of Batman fans have read at most two or three Batman TPBs and gauge all other appearances of that character from their incredibly shallow list. Like how "wrong" Grant Morrison or Scott Snyder's Batman was in places, despite the character of Batman being wildly open to reinterpretation.
>>83649231
Not that Anon, but I want exactly that.
>>83649024
Speaking as a new reader trying to break in I think shared universes and long continuities are the worst thing about comics. Having all the different, often conflicting, narratives bleed into each other is terrible. It also means stories are never fully contained in the material you are reading but referring to some other related other which has some different tone altogether.
I don't really say why you cannot let each writer decide their own cannon. The 90s Batman movie was good, so was Batman returns which took the 90s movie as cannon. The Dark Knight was also awesome and had neither of them as cannon. Batman TAS was also good has it's own cannon which is heavily adopted from the 90s movies but it doesn't have everything, Joker and Penguin are still alive for instance.
Certain things simply cannot be said if you have to have a bunch of baggage from the other worlds. Punisher Max couldn't have a narration about the harshness and futility of Frank's fight if it wasn't a universe where super heroes did not exist. He is truly alone which is what makes it sad.
>>83649319
>>83649360
So if the DC's output was just the books you individually are willing and able to buy, what would those books be?
I want DC to stop cancelling titles before seeing sales figures from digital and trades
>>83649438
Not those Anons, but I'd buy whatever's good. If DC (or any company, really) was putting out a few amazing OGNs every month, I'd buy the shit out of it.
>>83649418
>I don't really say why you cannot let each writer decide their own canon.
I'm talking about the comics exclusively, not synergy across different media like cartoons/films, etc.
I'm saying that "where the money is" is in "official" continuity books.
Changes with in-continuity books tend to cause outrage, out-of-continuity books tend to hardly be paid attention to. Like, Marvel's recent Captain America twist would be a quickly forgotten novelty in an ultimate marvel comic, but as in-continuity book it commands real world news coverage.
>>83649390
I have no idea. I only read DC because, as OP mentioned, those were the cartoons I watched. I have no problems with Marvel, I think company wars are retarded, but between DC, LotR, and Star Trek, I'm pretty much tapped on how many fictional universes I can obsess over.
Snyder's just a shit writer, but he's not breaking the mold or anything.
>>83649538
What did you think of Earth One Wonder Woman?
I just feel like, more than anything, there needs to be a section of modern comics made for serious Golden Age types of storytelling. Compressed, narrative-heavy, with tons of story on each page (and within each panel).
By design, that type of storytelling is forced to be "all ages", but it's especially nice for a kid to be able to see a story and fill in the gaps themselves. Because honestly, a young person buying a comic isn't trying to "read" a movie or a TV episode -- they want as much plot movement and action as they can get per page.
I also feel like writers are better now than ever, so it's more than doable.
On a personal level, just hate that, in this era where ideas are CONSTANTLY recycled, publishers refuse to more-or-less throw ideas against the wall and see what new things stick. Instead, it's just "oh, that new idea didn't work? Better go back to old, tired characters and old, tired plots!"
>>83649584
I haven't read it yet, but that's because I'm not a fan of Morrison or Wonder Woman.
>>83648886
>What is Bi
>>83648886
>Wanting wonderwoman to be gay
Why? It is a shitty addition to her character. You will think gay people will support Straight wonder-woman. I don't know why this trigger me. Maybe I hate the idea "If you live in a house full of guys, You going to start liking dick".
There's just so many misconceptions about comics, and when DC finally tried to address them, it was a massive failure and they had to go back to pandering to fans.
>>83649607
>Instead, it's just "oh, that new idea didn't work? Better go back to old, tired characters and old, tired plots!"
That's DC's greatest sin, but also it's what sells so you can't really blame them. You can't blame the fans that read them either, they're enjoying that shit, good for them.
You should always blame yourself, you should never, ever hate read or be static in your tastes.
I have no problem with it because while I don't personally enjoy the current films, I don't enjoy the current comics either so its not like people are missing out.
>>83649607
This is a terrible idea.
>>83649438
A crazy sci-fi Superman book that inspired me.
An operatic Batman that made me cry as he regularly defeated tragedy.
A Wonder Woman book in which she kicked all the ass.
A Flash book where he explored the limits of actual science.
A Martian Manhunter book where he was a terrifying creep investigating conspiracies.
A Justice League book where they were realistic Super Friends, fighting blockbuster odds.
Literally anything else of quality with its own tone, effect, and thematic exploration.
>>83649555
Because twitter and tumblr overreacted, much to Marvel's delight. It still has no actual effect on the Captain America story the average fan tells himself.
>>83649584
Masturbated to it.>>83649648
>>83649692
>A Flash book where he explored the limits of actual science
I would give DC all the money.
>>83649692
Or how about letting writers explore whatever they want, and just write some good stories regarding it?
>>83649607
>By design, that type of storytelling is forced to be "all ages", but it's especially nice for a kid to be able to see a story and fill in the gaps themselves. Because honestly, a young person buying a comic isn't trying to "read" a movie or a TV episode -- they want as much plot movement and action as they can get per page.
Have you read any recent kids comics at all?
>>83649850
>Or how about letting writers explore whatever they want, and just write some good stories regarding it?
Because without "continuity" it appears there isn't enough money in comics to keep going.
For all the whining, Events sell better than some of the great masterpieces flouted by /co/
It's sort of damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont.
>>83649692
>A crazy sci-fi Superman book that inspired me.
Fans complain Superman is too violent because of the movies, don't read the comic.
>An operatic Batman that made me cry as he regularly defeated tragedy.
All Star Batman, a huge amount of his backlog.
>A Wonder Woman book in which she kicked all the ass.
They already do this.
>A Flash book where he explored the limits of actual science.
Yeah, I've never actually like the Flash, I consider his powers too intangible to be interesting.
>A Martian Manhunter book where he was a terrifying creep investigating conspiracies.
Debuts at 12,000 issues, quietly cancelled despite being excellent. They already tried.
>A Justice League book where they were realistic Super Friends, fighting blockbuster odds.
It's been done.
>Literally anything else of quality with its own tone, effect, and thematic exploration.
Any interest in the Rebirth titles?
>>83649946
I have.
I also know that those are much, MUCH less popular than you think.
Plus, kids are kids. To a degree, they'll consume whatever you put in front of them if they can handle it. But the comparatively massive popularity of Golden/Silver Age comics suggests that their compression is something to consider for young audiences.
>>83650156
>I also know that those are much, MUCH less popular than you think.
That ain't what the sales from recent years have shown
>>83650209
That's actually about what I expected.
That's not a lot, especially since that's sales over one year.
Consider Whiz Comics selling a million comics per month. Consider that, along with a pre-BabyBoom population.
My point is that the amount of readers and influence those books have is negligible.
>>83650386
I am well aware of that but it is still the kids stuff that is trumping the other stuff.
Comics have made themselves a niche bed in this country over the years and now they have to sleep in it.
The biggest thing I think is that <i>MOST</i> people once they play the video game or see the movie / TV show with a character don't need any more information than that so they are content.
>>83647634
>What do you actually want from a superhero comic book in the year 2016?
More big adventure. Heroes getting sucked into really odd places or situations with absurd science or magic. And more friendship, actually showing members of a team being friends while on a mission. I feel like for awhile now I've read a few different books where whomever talks about being friends or having this bond or relationship but I've never actually seen it. There's too much I'm supposed to take for granted, I feel.
>>83647634
>What do you actually want from a superhero comic book in the year 2016?
I am getting everything I want from Supeheroes in 2016
They just aren't being published by Marvel or DC
>>83650994
>>83650386
The most recent comic books on the list were published in 2014. Good chuck of the books are a couple years old.
>>83647634
>What do you actually want from a superhero comic book in the year 2016?
For them to go back to competent writing, and for female solo's to be a) not filled with needless man bashing, and pointless gender promoting and b)To actually be superhero books and not archie comics.
Seriously it's not like books with male heroes have ever blatantly said "women suck go dudes!!!" so I don't understand why every 2 or 3 issue's I'm insulted simply because I'm a dude, that actually used to like the superheroine who's book i'm reading.
There's nothing that can be done to make monthly comic books a priority for kids nowadays. But there will always be kids that love what they saw in movies and shows and want to go to the source of these characters. So the best thing the Big Two can do is continue to streamline the availability of their backlog of stories.
>>83650994
>>83651010
THE BEST!!
funny how Japan is understanding heroism and what we want more than the west is.
>>83647634
The animated movies and series are nice because, for kids OR for newbies (for the stuff that isn't fart joke idiotic like TTG) to superheroes, it's a good introduction.
I'm with this anon >>83647749 - once you get to read the material, and you see the adaptations (I'm thinking here of any number of the WB Animation movies of DC characters and arcs), there's a complexity that you miss that you get from the stuff that unique to any type of graphic sequential art - that you can dip in and re-read from the middle of a trade, for example, that you can imagine what happens from panel to panel, etc.
>>83648151
>with just Batman and Alfred
I haven't read a Batman title in years but I just started watching The Batman on Netflix and am enjoying precisely because of their interactions and that, at least the first few seasons, are light on the bat brats and we don't get Gordon early on either. I realize it's all off canon, but still it's a nice change.
>>83649024
Some of Convergence sold really well. The main story book was in the top ten every week of it's release and earlier editions were in that list as the issue numbering progressed.
>DCYou sold badly
Various people in the industry (meaning the business end of the comic book and publishing industry) faulted DC for failing to promote properly - for example, making a big deal of Midnighter when they hadn't done so for the kane Batwoman book earlier on, without appreciating that simply saying - 'hey, here's a gay superhero book for you guys' in the gay community was going to limit any real interest and sales without providing context on Midnighter - which they didn't do.
DC also fails to properly use their digital titles to see what might or might not sale NOR to promote it to people who might not buy comics. Let's face it (again, using Midnighter as a good example), your typical gay teen or gay YA/college age might not even know where their local LCS is - but they can certainly know how to buy something on line.
Likewise, for say Prez or Omega Men, again, DC didn't know where or how to grow an audience for those books.
>>83649692
>>83650083
As someone who has read Superman on and off for the past twenty years and is pretty (90%) caught up on all the 2000 through New 52 issues, the books, where there is destruction or punching, have tonally difference with the movies. Even Superman Returns, which is closer in spirit to what I think some older fans would want, had several elements that were tonally different of books during it's time frame (see New Krypton or Black Ring, irrespective of how much punching, death or destruction happened in either of those arcs).
Besides, we're not comparing movies to books here. Anon above answered what types of books would he read.
I'm sure there would be a big market for a book with a lot of out there science fiction elements - adding Kal-El to the mix is just a question of writing him similarly to the way he was written when writers regularly brought out what where then (1950s) considered very out and very sci-fi elements.
>>83647634
Question ongoing
Spoiler ongoing or miniseries
>>83647634
Dan slott to quit and a spiderman run that matches his quality outside of his own series
>>83647634
Comics always turned out to be better than the stuff adapted from them.
Same way books are always better than the movies made from them.
>>83647634
>Hey /co/ you ever feel as most young people experience superheroes for the first time through animated cartoons
>>83647749
I get this, and would agree, except that I see it being just as big a problem as a bonus. I hate to cite it, but a good example is this rape the Joker meme, which basically the big 'why doesn't Batman kill the Joker' argument.
Certain heroes histories are massive; and yet status quo is king. The same hero will always be fighting a select set of his villains that the audience liked, and that's all that will ever happen. There might be little events, and temporary changes, but with comics - nothing ever really matters. There are no stakes. Oh, oh no, Superman is dead. Again. How will this affect the continuing setting? lol, just kidding, he'll be back in 6-12 months.
And god help your series if it happens to get involved with another medium, like TV, because suddenly the comic will be taking ques from it for years to come. At best, a reshuffle and new art style, at worst a reboot or alternate universe version of the character brought in. And yet, it will STILL be predictable, with no stakes.
The status quo is something I truly hate in comics, and is less of a big deal with animations, TV shows, and films. They do tend to progress. Villains die. Heroes stay dead. We get interesting interpretations of old characters. We get shit like Batman Beyond.
I like X-23, and think she makes an interesting Wolverine while he is dead. But that adamantium shell? Underneath it his healing factor has slowly been kicking back in again or something, and in a year or two he's going to be Wolverine again, on a team with Cyclops and Storm, and X-23 is going to be back as a side-character in an Avengers or X team. It's just the way these series' work.
I'm just looking forwards, because it's going to be funny, to see how they make Jessica Jones marketable in the comics after her show turned out to be a hit... and she is no longer anything like her Alias self.
>>83656864
>continuing, with an afterthought.
I think this is why Injustice is so popular, despite not actually being all that well written or with especially good art. Why I enjoy Elseworlds more than main settings, like Punisher MAX. The stories are something different, there are stakes and (certain) characters can and will die or go directions we have never seen, and there will be closure at the end.
The Killing Joke is another example; it's edgy as hell, and i don't actually like the art all that much, but it was the story that crippled a main character and gave her an entirely new and different role, and actual progression. And then, back to my original point, she is fucking Batgirl again.
Comics tend to be like disappointing sex without a climax.
