I've seen a lot of people here on /co/ recommending Morrison's JLA, so i gave it a try. How come people liked his run? All i saw was a pile of shit OC DON'T STEAL characters like Zauriel, Aztek and, the biggest offender, this faggot Prometheus. I get he is a villanous Bat-God, but everything about him makes me want to vomit.
Fuck you /co/.
>Original Characters are bad! We shouldn't have any new things ever!
It wasn't good. Morrison;s attempt at making each story even bigger than the last lead to some really boring plots with not as many good character moments/interactions that one would come to expect from a team book like that.
Kelly's is easily the better run + JL Elite.
>>83493150
This is the exact same problem I have with his Final Crisis. I think in general Morrison should be kept away from huge "event" type stories.
>>83491717
/co/ lied to you. It was ok but really not that good and now is pretty inaccessible to new readers due to relying on people knowing things like why Superman is an electric hero, and then later stops and goes back to normal without explaining in the comic, and why Wonder Woman is suddenly her mother, and the mysterious new Flash. All of which don't get addressed unless you read other peoples comics which hurts it as being able to stand on its own.
Ultimately it's one of the worst JLA runs with no memorable stories.
>>83493288
I feel like the Prometheus and Starro arcs are memorable, and unsurprisingly they are both only two issues long.
this thread gave me cancer
>>83493425
Starro invading the Dreaming was not good. Prometheus is generally disliked as a character. I I would give you white martians.
>>83493455
Because people raise legitimate complaints about a comic? Sounds like you're just a Morrisonfag.
>>83491717
Morrisons JLA was pretty 90sshit but if you keep with it long enough to get out of morrisons stuff its pretty good
Prometheus would make a phenomenal villain if they adapted him for Arrow.
Because he's basically phased out of existence in the batman universe
>>83493819
He was fucking Midnighter in his series
>>83493763
1) "Nothing is memorable about it" - meanwhile it's referenced and recreated constantly, including the beloved Justice League cartoon. Stuff like Rock of Ages is the pinnacle of high concept capes comic. There's a bunch of good arcs - they are epic like you'd want JLA to be, it distills the characters and uses them well, and still manage to remain novel and surprising.
2) "Why is Superman blue, this makes me confused and angry!" - actually, it doesn't really matter why Superman is blue and has new powers. It's explained fine in the story and Morrison uses it in such a way that it fits naturally with the story.
3) "This character makes me want to vomit, he's a FAGGOT" - this is a legitimate complaint? lol
4) "Zauriel and Aztek are bad because they are not Hawkman and whoever I want Aztek to be instead" - like Superman Blue, it fits the story fine.
It's a good JLA and is arguably the definitive one of the modern era. The worst thing about it is the art in the beginning.
>>83494093
Isn't Aztek also not!Hawkman?
>>83494093
>Zauriel and Aztek are bad because they are not Hawkman
No one said that. Do you base most of your arguments around points you made up specifically to disprove?
What's wrong with Aztek? I thought he was cool as hell.
>>83491717
Prometheus was an incredibly well written villan it was belivible that he was able to pull off what he did while his mistakes that undid him and the tactics pulled to stop him also made sense.
Its second only to craftsman bolt on system saves the justice league in assault on the watchtower quality
>>83494417
>All i saw was a pile of shit OC DON'T STEAL characters
>>83494314
Yeah they wouldn't let him use Hawkman
>>83494500
That said I can understand not liking the rest of the run but to not recognise how fucking good that arc was you must have incredibly shit taste
>>83493288
To be fair it dident really matter why he had those powers
That said they should have started it with the at least token explanation they ended it on
>>83494093
>Stuff like Rock of Ages is the pinnacle of high concept capes comic
How so? Darkseid was fun, but in the end it was just another "alternate reality" story.
>...actually, it doesn't really matter why Superman is blue and has new powers
I agree, but in one issue they say Wonder Woman is dead, and in another arc she is back and this is never addressed.
>this is a legitimate complaint? lol
It wasn't, but Prometheus is a bad character and Morrison had to job the entire League to make he seem cool.
>Zauriel and Aztek are bad because they are not Hawkman and whoever I want Aztek to be instead
Nobody said this.
>>83494500
>Incredibly well written villain
>I hate justice!
>Keikaku!
Stop.
>>83494738
Darkseid was just one part of it. It's one of the best uses of Dr Light before DC turned him into the great RAPE monster.
>>83494925
Suicide Squad did it better, m8 :^)
>>83494837
Ok his level of success was incredibly well writen it dident feel like anybody was jobing, his success made sense but at the same time he dident seem bullshit op and his defeat was belivible.
All the members got a bunch of shit but they wouldent even let Arthur have a pool in the new 52
>>83494837
He's literally reverse-Batman. It may not be complex, but it's pretty cleverly done.
>>83493288
Its not the fault of the comic itself that it doesnt adress these changes, but the one of the editorial pages.
>>83494548
Which is kinda interesting, because he must have asked for Hawkman pretty early in his run (otherwise the Zauriel/Asmodel story wouldnt have happened)... so wanted Morrison Hawkman to be a founding-member originally (Big 8 instead of Big 7)?
>>83491717
>Morrison's JLA
>How come people liked his run?
5 Main Reasons:
1. It was one of the most idea heavy cape runs ever. There's enough concepts in each issue to fill at least twice as much.
2. It brought back the "all star"/"Big 7" pseudo-original Justice League of America roster. This was a HUGE deal at the time.
3. It was possibly the single most cinematic cape comic ever as of the time of its release. This was before The Authority and "widescreen comics" of course. Stylistically it was pretty shocking to see at the time.
4. Everything about it was just BIG. The BIGGEST superheroes, the BIGGEST stakes, the BIGGEST action scenes. Was quite the ride back then before explosion-fests because more of the norm.
5. The writing. This is actually probably the least important aspect of it since it was mostly driven by the ideas/concepts, but it did have some clever scenes and a few lines but.
>>83495510
I didn't like Morrison's run, but it's high concept method aged so much better than Ellis's authority. I just got done reading it and the action scenes are really fucking bad in every single issue.
It was considered good because there hadn't been a decent JLA story since DeMatteis and Giffen turned it into a comedy in the 80s.
The hype of "good run" over time became "definitive run", and DC fans used it as a rallying point against Busiek's Avengers, which was also a back-to-roots attempt at just telling classic stories.
Jump ahead 20 years and you have Morrison fans claiming it lays the roots for Hypercrisis, and DCAU fans claiming it led to their beloved cartoon.
Never examine comics as if they were released yesterday - consider the context in which they came out, and how that might be different than it is now.
>>83493078
>Prometheus
>original
Pick one
Reminder that Morrison is a hack
Wonder women punched a guy so hard he went flying while his mask remained stationery
>>83498480
Name one other villain who gets karate powers through CDs
>>83501845
Oh shit I forgot about that
Yeah that was a little silly but everything else about that arc was great
>>83501845
Whitesnake called; Morrison is a hack.
All kidding aside, Prometheus is just another reverse Batman. There's been fucking dozens of "cops killed my prents, so I must wage a war on law" charters in batman.
>>83494093
>All this strawman
>>83491717
Aztek is killed off and didn't make it in the decade following his solo run.
>>83497314
pretty much this, i read this series when it came out and it was notable because it actually made the JLA seem powerful and had a larger scope not usually seen in a monthly
Zariul was the Hawkman expie; created by Morrison because he was told Hawkman was off-limits due to the continuity mess the character was stuck in. Zariul gets a pass though, because his first appearance was pretty bad-ass and he was unique enough that you forget he only exists because Hawkman was off-limits.
Aztek was a pet character of Morrison and Mark Millar; they created him and put him on the JLA to try and boost his book's sales. But he got pulled from the team after a single adventure because:
1. Morrison pissed off his editor, for turning in his Rock of Ages scripts too late to be changed due to the the editor not liking how dull as fuck the story was and wanting to downplay the Darkseid shit in favor of focusing on the JLA/Injustice Gang stuff. Which led to Aztek being canceled as punishment
2. Morrison having a major case of ADD and losing interest in the character when he decided out of the blue, to suddenly have the roster look like the pantheon of the Greek Gods and ditched Aztek and Connor Hawke for Orion, Big Barda, Huntress, and Steel
He showed back up in the final Morrison arc just to die to get rid of him so no one else could write him.
Prometheus was basically a failed parody of Bane and Doomsday; an overpowered "big bad" who could kick the JLAs asses
This is why I like Johns' Justice League compared to Morrison's JLA.
>Better character interactions. The first arc had more character interactions than Morrison's whole run, and it showed the differences in their characters as well.
>Every change to characters is explained, like turning the characters into Gods, unlike Blue Superman and death of WW.
>Better characters like Grail, unlike asspulls like Prometheus and like Mexican Hawk thing.
>Depending on good storytelling rather than incoherent shit like time travelling and dimension jumping.
>>83491717
Zauriel exists as a Hawkman stand in because writers weren't allowed to use the Hawks due to their continuity being a clusterfuck.
>>83503103
>Which led to Aztek being canceled as punishment
I'm pretty sure shit sales led to Aztek being canned.
Prometheus isn't a failed parody of Bane and Doomsday. He's a pretty standard evil Batman/action mastermind type character, albeit one with a bit of cheek in his backstory. He just wasn't very interesting and saddled with a backstory that sounds absolutely retarded when you try to explain it - it comes off better when you actually read it.
>>83491717
>I get he is a villanous Bat-God, but everything about him makes me want to vomit.
You think that's bad? Read James Robinson's Cry for Justice series, he's even worse there.
>>83503610
You've a fucking awful taste. Just for like Grail alone, Jesus...
>>83503610
I forgot to mention that while Morrison destroyed Kirby's characters, Johns' made them relevant again.
>>83491717
I remember when Marvel stole from DC and not the other way around.
I love Prometheus. I think because of his various powers and skills he forms a real threat. Aztek is also great. Fuck you.
>>83501960
KIller Moth, Prometheus, Bane, Catman, Owlman (sort of). How many other anti-Batmans are there?
>>83503610
Ok with most of that I can see where your coming from but
>Grail
>Good
Grail was fucking retardedly op she has probably set back acceptance of new characters at least a decade we were just coming out of all characters should be established characters retardation amongst comic readers and then Grail comes along and reminds us why so many people got that attitude in the first place.
>>83503610
>Better characters like Grail
Dropped.
Also, John's characterisation of the Justice League is bad.
>>83505612
It wasent that bad
Except for when aquaman said he dident care what the public thought of the league
I get that he wanted somebody other then Batman to say that for once but it really did not suit the direction Arthur was going in his solo
>>83493763
You raised no legitimate complaints, you used no evidence
"I don't like it" is not a legitimate complaint
the beauty of Morrison/Kelly JLA is its simplicity.
the biggest guns solving the biggest problems. That's it.
>>83504221
Wow. So this is what a black hole of wrongness looks like.
>>83505639
>I get that he wanted somebody other then Batman to say that for once
This is my problem with Johns though. He really doesn't understand the point of Batman and wants to use him in a way which doesn't really work, especially in the context of the Justice League, and while I enjoyed his run on Aquaman, he doesn't do the character right with the Justice League.
Like Superman is sort of meant to be like the leader of the Justice League in the way that a Captain is the leader of a sports team, a sort of first amongst equals kind of dude.
Then you got Diana who is like the mother without being the matron. She's making sure people aren't butting heads and doing dumb shit because people's tempers are flaring.
Then you've got Arthur who is like the noble and honourable dude. His opinion holds weight and gravitas, so if shit doesn't fly by him no one else should be down with it.
Then you got The Flash (Barry or Wally) who's there to pull off the big, desperate plays.
Hal/Kyle are there to add a level of wit and levity, keep peoples spirits up and shit. Which helps with his banter with Barry/Wally.
And Batman is your get shit done guy. He's the only one who is human so is the only one who will put that extra bit of determination into anything because he's always had too, as well as being the brains of the League.
... Oh and Cyborg/Martian Manhunter are there to guard the base.
>>83505562
You forgot Wrath.Not that I blame you. He showed up and left without bang.
>>83505784
>while I enjoyed his run on Aquaman, he doesn't do the character right with the Justice League.
Oh yeah I forgot he was writing both
I can kind of understand not giving him much to do but it really does make you wonder how he fucked up so much on that aquaman line.
Peoples opinions of the justice league affect opinions of aquaman opinions on aquaman decide opinions on Atlantis
Arthur should know this.
>>83493288
>Ultimately it's one of the worst JLA runs with no memorable stories.
It gave us DC 1,000,000,000 which gave us Catwoman 1,000,000,000 which is 20 some odd pages of nothing but shitty hacker puns.
>>83497314
This is true for every analysis, context is everything
>>83495144
>9 Aquaman's deep water tanks (connected via tunnels to surface pool)
>20 Pool (connected to deep water tank)
Daily reminder that /co/ knows absolutely nothing about comics and is populated by shitposters completely devoid of creativity in their desperation for interaction via argument.
>>83501845
Sheen?
So this isn't a bait thread?
>>83506135
That's what I'm saying that image was from Morrison's run in the new 52 they wouldent let him have a pool
>>83506199
No op just has shit taste
Well I can understand not liking most of the run that's just making a bigger deal of the flaws then the fans that's ok difrent people can tolerate difrent sorts of flaws. But not liking Prometheus is really just horrible taste
>>83506199
Not everyone likes Morrison
>>83491717
He also created modern Batgod by having Bats effortlessly solo four Superman level white Martians, among other things.
Can we agree that most of DC One Million is garbage?
>>83505562BANE?
>>83506199
It's a Johns thread which is worse
>>83507003
>waaah superhero doing incredible things pisses me off
>it's fine when characters I like pull retarded stuns tho
i liked Aztek. his costume was cool ;_;
>>83507572
the concept was cool. in general slightly better than Marvel 2009 if you leave it at that. Batman and Catwoman 1 million were awesome, but only a single issue or so. in totality can't compete with the runs of Doom or Spider-Man 2099
The biggest misstep of Morrison's run was ruining General Eiling, other than that, pretty good action, pretty great quips, pacing is Morrison-bad-as-usual in that "you have to flip back to make sure you didn't skip a page" way because he cares more about shoving out all his big ideas than presenting them in a way that flows well.
Can't fault a guy for including OCs in a book with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, and to a lesser extent Aquaman, characters who can't receive any major character development in a way that would affect their solo books. Morrison played ball pretty well with all the changes they were going through in their own books; yeah, he didn't care to explain them because those changes weren't particularly relevant to the stories he was telling and he didn't want to interrupt them for spoonfeeding exposition.
>>83507572
DC One Million is the best crossover ever. What the fuck has happened to this place?
>>83503610
>there are people who didn't like baby darkseid with god absorption powers
it was so batshit insane i loved it
>>83505784
>Cyborg/Martian Manhunter are there to guard the base.
Sad but true.
>>83508154
A lot of the one-shots are garbage.
>>83491717
Hey fuck you Prometheus is cool. So is Zauriel and Aztek, you have such shit taste OP.
>>83505579
>Grail was fucking retardedly op
But there is nothing fucking wrong with that!
>>83494439
He's under developed for sure. He's got a cool design but needs some stories and a fresh reboot of shorts.
>>83493288
>It was ok but really not that good and now is pretty inaccessible to new readers due to relying on people knowing things
We have the internet now, that's not an excuse. I didn't even touch DC comics or many comics for that matter until like 2010 and I could still follow along decently just from having knowledge of the cartoons
>>83497314
Good post
Anyone got a torrent or something for this run. I'd like to read it. I love Morrison, Zauriel, Prometheus and Azteck. I'm the Reverse-OP.
>>83505785
When did Ultron beat up Batman?
>>83493288
>>83493150
>>83491717
Are these all OP?
>>83507572
Fuck off. That was one of the better event crossovers in the 90's and still better than most DC or Marvel events in the 00's and 10's.
>>83507572
>most
No, but I can agree that all of it was shit. Fucking brainsquids in the infocean. Jesus Christ.
>>83512393
>most
>No, but I can agree that all of it was shit.
Kek at """""contrarian""""" poster
>>83511881
If you read a little further down you'll see that I said most of the tie-ins were garbage. To be more specific, the filler shit like Young Justice and Legion. The main story itself, outside of that godawful Catwoman issue, is just fine and interesting enough.
>>83508701
>>83512535
You're wrong though. There's only one or two that you can right off completely and the rest are either woven into the narrative beautifully or the best type of batshit insanity that comics have to offer.
>>83505562
You really see Catman and Bane as some kind of anti-Batmen? The others i get....but these two?
>>83513558
Write off completely
>>83503610
I like Johns but I can't really his Justice League was better.
It didn't really get good until Throne of Atlantis and Darkseid War petered out as it went on.
and I thought Captain Cold was supposed to be a part of the Justice League
>>83513562
Bane was literally introduced as the anti-Batman with the sole purpose in life of breaking the Bat
Search your feelings you know it to be true.
>>83505562
Owlman
I think you could make an argument for Deathstroke maybe
>>83495224
>He's literally reverse-Batman
Because we don't have enough of those.
>>83513932
I can't believe it!
>>83494837
>I hate justice!
That's a silly complaint for a cape comic.
I'm amazed at how many people like Prometheus. I guess /co/ will eat shit if it came from the ass of a 2deep4u writer.
>>83515092
Only characterfags like characters.
>>83506961
Different anon but as much as I like Morrison most of his JLA just felt "pretty good" to me. I can appreciate that it's better in context but Morrison's better work (and better JLA books) don't need context to be good. Animal Man is just as GOAT today as it was when Morrison first wrote it.
>>83507003
>The Batgod is from Morrison's JLA meme
Batman is missing for large sections of the run and when he shows up he frequently gets his shit pushed in. The white martians makes perfect sense in context, they're weak to fire so Bats starts a fire and beats the shit out of them while they're powerless.
>>83515373
Morrison Batman was the genesis of Planman to justify his presence on the League. Waid was the guy who made it ridiculous with Tower of Babel.
>>83515312
Except there aren't any better JLA books.
>>83515854
>what is JLI/JLA/JLE
>>83515964
They aren't great Justice League books. They're like the Seinfeld of JL stories
>>83516355
Seinfeld was a great sitcom.
>>83491717
>this faggot Prometheus
Ahahahaha
>>83516453
>you will never fuck Middy as part of your evil plan
>>83516490
Who the hell is Middy?
>>83516490
Why live?
>>83516543
Based Midnighter
>>83513959
Deathstroke was created to be an anti-batman for sure, he even has the butler and the teenage sidekicks.
He was just intended to be a villain for Robin instead of Batman.
>>83495397
Zauriel first appears in JLA 6, so Morrison clearly wanted Hawkman right there at the beginning.
I love what we eventually got with the Hawks (Johns Hawkman/JSA runs) but would've been cool to see what Morrison could've done with him.
>>83508107
I miss good ol' military-political complex fucks with Waller for fun Wade Eiling.
>>83516355
>They're like the Seinfeld of JL stories
Seinfeld is great. The books are about the Justice League. I don't see how that makes them anything but great Justice League books.
>>83515524
how is Tower of Babel ridiculous?
>>83504298
I can't tell if you're serious, but Morrison's Prometheus existed at least a full decade before Marvel's Anti-Man...
>>83516849
Planman's plans take out the entire JLA.
>>83517382
Same thing as Prometheus, but it is ok when Morrison does it
>>83516849
most of the plans just didn't make sense at all, though maybe that was intentional given that they got out of them without a ton of trouble
>>83517382
and? everyone can make plans, Batman had to stalk them for months to come up with plans that barely worked
>>83517918
Prometheus was taken out by a whipcrack to the dick.
>>83507003
>Mysterious murderers with mind control don't investigate burning wreckage for body even though they were thorough in everything else.
How is this a batgod level logical leap to suspect they're Martians?
>>83516770
Except it's way easier to make a good comedic group book than a straight superhero one.
>>83519407
While I disagree with that premise it doesn't matter how easy a book is to write, if it's good it's good.
>>83498480
Less of a hack than Moore desu
>>83505784
There are multiple interpretations that you could make of the league, though. While yours does exist and is very much the most commonly accepted format the team operates under, it isn't the only one. Such a grand and epic take works in something like Kingdom Come where the the overall tone matches the character's interpretation. Each of the members has their job, but the job's requirements shift and change as does the roster of the team. Take Batman for example. In JLU he's a very disconnected strategist who acts more like an unimpressed drill sergeant than he does an equal to the other members. Its a different team and a different environment for him to work in. I guess the point is that a writer can shape or morph the basic templates of these characters into anything they want. I'd rather see somebody try a new spin on a character that doesn't work than have the same character dynamics forever.
Like Green Lantern. No matter what anybody really says, Hal doesn't have that much of a personality. This isn't me trying to be critical of the character, nor do I have anything against him, but you can apply his willfulness, the most important and significant characteristic Jordan's got, to any other member of the league and there wouldn't be much of a difference. I mean, Will in itself is a very bland and kinda vague characteristic. Superman's willful, Batman's willful, what superhero lacks will? Doesn't every crimefighter require a strong will if they're supposed to perform such amazing acts of heroism in the face of danger? He would probably work better if they played up the cop aspect of his character and the conflict that arises from that. What if Hal is forced to break the rules of the GL Corp in order to perform a greater good on Earth? What if Hal has to betray the League's rules in order to prevent galactic civil war? He's a man of great responsibility, not will. And he's forced to question himself and his actions every day when he puts on that ring
>>83520020
Degree of difficulty is definitely a thing and a straight cape book featuring the big seven will always be harder to pull off than a tongue in cheek book with largely B-C listers.
>>83520604
If you really think straight up action books are harder to write than comedies that's your opinion, however it doesn't mean that a comedy is inherently incapable of being great.
>>83521880
I never said that JLI wasn't great, I said that it's not as good as Morrison's JLA.
