Why do people like them? They're both objectively bad people and represent a twisted view of what justice is supposed to be.
People should be appalled by them, so why are they held up as heroes? Worse, why do some people think they are unironically right?
because there MUH FLAWED HEROES
>>83473784
A bad person isnt the same as a bad character jackass. How exaclty is Matt a bad person anyway?
>>83473784
>I have to agree with a character to enjoy them
Found the manchild.
>>83473832
he's blind
>>83473784
Because they don't like patronizing and pro-conformism faggots like Superman.
>>83473784
Because it's a bit more believable that folks who spend their time assaulting people would be somewhat damaged individuals.
>>83473832
He's a hypocrite who's been betraying every oath he ever took since before his father died. He's a lawyer who only represents people because he knows they're innocent. He's pretends to be a good Catholic boy when he gets his jollies dressing up in spandex and beating up undesirables. His cock is haunted.
>>83473784
How is Daredevil bad?
>>83473945
>He's a lawyer who only represents people because he knows they're innocent
Is this objectively bad?
>He's pretends to be a good Catholic boy when he gets his jollies dressing up in spandex and beating up undesirables
Is this objectively bad?
>>83473912
>supporting murderers
Punisher fans have a sick view of morality
>>83473945
So he's just like every catholic man ever.
>>83473992
Sure, but at least it's not a distorted one.
>>83473992
>Killing pieces of shit murderers, rapists and drug dealers is immoral
>letting them live and ruin lives isn't
how?
>>83474053
Ah, yes, the conundrum of letting a guilty party go or murdering them. There really is no other option, its not like there's some sort of 'justice system' or something.
>>83474099
fuck justice. If you're strong you should kill people who deserve it.
>>83474099
The justice system is a social construct.A broken one. It does not represent justice, it's easily exploited, and it's just a means for people with no guts to convince themselves they did everything they could.
>>83474125
>marvel
>>83474125
I assume a jacked terrorist would be justified in breaking your neck? Your infidel ass deserves it according to him, so he's not doing anything wrong.
>>83474152
And what would you suggest instead?
Roving groups of vigilantes able to kill anyone they want?
>>83474152
Fuck off, Frank Miller.
>>83473992
>"nobody never ever deserves being killed anon. it's not right"
you fucking fuck...
>>83474182
If they're more efficient than the "justice system", yes.
If it meant that innocent lives are saved on the cost of murderers I'll take it.
>>83473784
>"I've never read a Punisher comic but that's not going to stop me from making a thread insulting it and it's fans!"
>>83474237
*tips fedora*
>>83473784
Have you ever read Daredevil?
>>83474253
>tips fedora back at your "enlightened morals"
>>83474240
You are extremely, extremely, extremely naive if you think roving bands of vigilantes with no oversight wouldn't cause a lot of innocent deaths.
The fact that you can't see that the justice system is the logical conclusion of any attempt to enforce justice reveals how stupid you are, like people that say we should drop money and go back to bartering.
But no one actually thinks the Punisher would be a good idea in the real world. He exists in a universe tailor made around his morals and methods. He's quick and easy escapism for people fed up with crime and injustice, people that just want to see the bad guys get blown to shit.
It's really funny how some people are indifferent to how corrupt the justice system is, but are enraged when someone takes justice in his hands. Talk about pretentious.
>>83474289
>You are extremely, extremely, extremely naive if you think roving bands of vigilantes with no oversight wouldn't cause a lot of innocent deaths.
Elaborate. How would it not? And why is the justice system more efficient according to you?
Also thanks for the strawman and the insults on your second part, shows a lot.
>>83474125
careful now, your edge nearly cut me
Seriously now, you are totally entitled to have your doubts about the effectiveness of the legal system, but please refrain yourself from using these kind of sentences.
>>83473784
The point isn't that they're morally correct characters. It's that they're interesting characters.
We like to watch Matt try to juggle altruism, religious morality, personal demons and a social and professional life. We like the catharsis of Frank wiping the streets clean of "scum" as if it were so easy to solve such a problem, and we like when that question is presented to him in the story itself. We like his cold, calculating professionalism. It's a lot of fun seeing him explain his tactics as he assaults a mob stronghold. We like watching both of them and sometimes Spider-Man meet up and duke it out for philosophical superiority.
The same reason people like Batman, that it's this guy doing what he can to help with this subtle tinge of "He's not quite right in the head, is he?" is present here with that tinge dialed up to 11 and brought to the foreground of the story.
>>83474352
All it takes is some of these vigilantes to be corrupt, in it for the wrong reasons, or just plain stupid and impatient. Then you get innocent bodies piling up because it really did *seem* like that person was the killer, or that girl really was convincing when she made that rape claim she recounted.
To elaborate on my earlier point, lets say some guy gets murdered wrongly. What the leader of the vigilantes going to do? Probably draft up some guidelines to say what amount of evidence you need before you can kill a suspect, so people aren't strongly murdered. Except, if these vigilantes had to do this every time, they'd never be out on the streets actually killing these guys, so they get some guys in offices to look at the evidence and see if someone is guilty before they get whacked off. With a couple of simple, very likely steps, you've got a crude and shitty justice system, defeating the purpose.
>>83474471
>All it takes is some of these vigilantes to be corrupt, in it for the wrong reasons, or just plain stupid and impatient.
Which funnily enough is a Punisher story that ends with Frank franking the vigilantes
With great power comes great responsibility. Frank Castle is very, VERY good at killing people. Not just in that he's an expert killer, but he can pull the trigger without hesitation. That's not something the average person can do. So if Frank Castle has the power to do something about the criminal element that preys on the innocent but avoids the law, does he not also have the responsibility to do something?
>>83474471
Your whole post is based on neatly placed assumptions that serve your argument.
If you are unable to participate into a discussion without putting words into people's mouths or stop placing arguments of misleading nature like this one, there's no point of arguing with you.
>>83474728
>I can't refute your argument
No worries mate, that's sort of what happens when you get your views on justice from Punisher comics.
>>83474713
He doesn't avoid the law, he BREAKS the law. He has decided that criminals and murders are disgusting scum that deserve to die, except for himself of course. He's a hypocrite.
>>83474153
>Marvel
>>83474814
he knows full well his last bullet has his own name on it.
>>83474788
Refute what exactly? I can make a post assuming that the vigilantes will ever do no wrong unlike your justice system, the very logical assuption that the innocents killed by murderers etc will always be much more than the innocents wrongly killed by vigilantes, and the vigilantes will be real life versions of Frank.
Your don't have an argument, you're making assumptions to back up your previous argument.
Come up with facts, and I will try to refute you.
>>83474099
>There really is no other option, its not like there's some sort of 'justice system' or something.
Justice system depends on having a functional society (you can say "social contract" though societies do not work like contracts).
Society in Marvelverse is not fucking functional. US is a failed state that is only held together by efforts of a handful of superpowered vigilantes and is too corrupt to create an effective system for protecting its people - when it tries, the system invariably becomes another threat.
Punisher is one of the few people there with a realistic attitude towards living in a failed state where fucking battles in the streets are so commonplace that mere murder and robbery are hardly worth mentioning in the news.
>>83474897
>Ebrahimi was punched and kicked to death outside his Bristol home and his body set on fire by neighbour Lee James, who wrongly suspected he was a paedophile.
>Mr Jones, 40, died in hospital from massive head injuries after a brutal attack in his Featherston home on January 12 last year. The supermarket worker was fatally bashed in retaliation for an alleged rape, based on unsubstantiated rumour.
But I'm sure whatever testosterone-fueled street-executioners you picked wouldn't ever make a wrong choice.
Of course, when I suggested that the justice system is an eventuality, I assumed you would care about making sure people actually committed their crimes before you hacked them to death with a machete. If you don't, you really are a sick person, and if you do, what alternate process to discern guilt do you suggest?
>>83475079
as if the Punisher didn't check everyone he kills is guilty
it may be unrealistic, but he ALWAYS is 100% certain of what he's doing
>>83475079
> the very logical assuption that the innocents killed by murderers etc will always be much more than the innocents wrongly killed by vigilantes
Do you comprehend?
>>83475208
So you don't care at all about ascertaining guilt?
>>83473784
Better a hero to eager to kill then a hero who refuses to kill at all
>people actually thinking the punisher is a good idea
Lotta 14 year olds out today.
>>83474814
Literally every costumed hero breaks multiple laws. That's really a moot point.
>>83474099
Except in marvelverse the justice system is a fucking mess
How is Daredevil twisted in his view point of Justice? I don't know much about him, but I always thought he was a very upstanding blind ass kicker.
Frank I know about, his ideals and all his stories are pretty straight forward
>>83475284
But not every costumed hero goes around LITERALLY murdering other for doing the same thing.
>>83473863
kek
>>83474814
Batman breaks the law, Superman breaks the law, every fucking non-government sanctioned costumed crime fighter is breaking the law. The Punisher is just one of many.
>>83475245
Dude, have you SEEN the state of Baltimore or Detroit? Lawlessness is on the rise, so naturally vigilantes are going to be seen as heroes. How many riots have we seen in the past few years where the police did jack shit? If the cops won't do their jobs, someone else should.
>Daredevil being anything other than an exemplary citizen with some anger management issues he channels through public service
you guys know citizens stopping a criminal in flagranti is sanctioned by most constitutional systems, right?
this thread is full of dumbfucks
>>83474471
>or that girl really was convincing when she made that rape claim she recounted.
You mean the exact problem the justice system has right now
A person saddled with a false rape claim is almost better off dead anyway it fucks up your life.
>>83475395
How is making it even WORSE gonna solve anything?
>>83473784
because like liberals, actual heroes are hypocrites and special snowflakes.
case in point, batman and joker. seriously batman is a complete faggot
>>83475395
>You mean the exact problem the justice system has right now
I can't sue the vigilante for knocking my teeth out based on some stupid hunch. I can however pursue damages against that kind of thing in the justice system.
>>83475393
By murdering people? No. That is not a good solution you edgelord.
>>83475325
So if you had the means to destroy, say, ISIS, would you? Or would that be morally wrong because killing is wrong?
>>83474099
the justice system in comics simply doesn't work. this is a fact
>>83475468
Except it doesent work.
And even if your cleared by the courts the public stigma fucks you over
>>83475537
If I had the means to slaughter or imprison ISIS, I would choose to imprison them.
>>83475569
And how would making vigilantes do that shit instead help in any way.
It'd be the exact same, except you've also got third-degree burns over 80% of your body.
>>83475475
It doesn't matter- as the situation deteriorates, people are going to resort to drastic measures. That's why you enforce the fucking law, because otherwise people take it in their own hands.
>>83475653
Well we ain't in Mad Max yet.
>>83475738
stop reminding me
>>83475604
Now say you only had the means to slaughter them. Then what?
>>83475738
Urban America is pretty damn close though. It pretty much is in the comics.
> The justice system is broken.
> So I HAVE to take the matter into my own hands!
Or you could solve the actual problem and fix the justice system. But you wouldn't feel as self-righteous about it I guess.
It would be less action-oriented, but I'm sure you could do some nice comics about it.And I'm sure there are some already.
That being said, to each their own.
>>83474814
>except for himself of course
Wrong again fucccboi.
Read more comics.
>>83476319
>Read more comics.
why the fuck would anybody want to read about a literal garbage character like Punisher?
>>83476319
To be fair, that's still quite hypocrite, it's not like that will ever happen.
I guess he's deranged enough to give those words some weight in his mind, but still.
>>83476434
>this is bait
>>83476550
And this is just stupidity.
>>83476550
>>83476658
>"When they're all dead."
>"When the war is over"
That's the problem with tou though isn't it Frank? The war is never over. Maybe he should rethink his strategy if that's his actual goal.
>>83473945
He's a hypocrit but has come to accept that. He helps bring justice when it can be brought properly.
When there is injustice like when a jury is paid off or some cops are bribed then he can't do it properly, thats injustice so whats a little vigilante bone breaking added to that?
>>83476658
> "I know I'm doing bad things, but it's ok because I will punish myself as soon as something that can't happen happens."
No THAT's stupid. It make sense for the character, it's a good line for him, but that's still him not being right in his head.
>>83474099
If the marvel justice system is as bad as say, real life Brazil's, then vigilantes are justified.
>>83474471
>these are problems of vigilantes
>lists problems existing justice systems face
Are you retarded or pretending?
There is literally nothing wrong with killing pedophiles, drug dealers, and murderers.
>>83475475
How do you get rid of cartels in Mexico or in Brazil, if it isn't with weapons and killing?
>>83473784
I just realized Matt's a lawyer because Devil's advocate.
See it's a joke, about lawyers, and devils.
Daredevil.
>>83477231
IT'S BECAUSE JUSTICE IS BLIND YOU MORON
>>83477492
Feeling real Matt Murdock right now.
>>83477116
>>83477156
>>83475393
>>83475245
Real talk:
There would be nothing wrong with the dath penalty for certain crimes. It's not about punishment or justice or redemption or anything. Some people just don't deserve to exist on the same planet as everyone else: cold-blooded murderers, pedos, organized crime bosses and all that fun stuff
BUT the problem is that before being killed those people have to be judged by a court of men, or even worse by a single vigilante. Men are fallible. The judicial system is fallible. The risk of condemning an innocent man to an undeserved death is unacceptably high. It could be one chance in a million and it would still be unacceptably high.
We can be cheering for Daredevil and the Punisher because they are cartoon people killing cartoon bad guys that we see doing bad stuff off-panel. We have absolute omniscience about that death-deserving scum and so it's fine to see them broken or killed. And the fact those vigilantes are never wrong - they always do that to the people we objectively know to be guilty - makes justifying their methods easier.
Gets a little trickier in the real world.
>>83474815
kek
just made this and i dont know where else to post it
>>83474153
This summarizes everything. Every fucking inch of every thing I've had issue with Marvel's writing for the past 8 years or so.
God damn so much of this.
>>83473832
He's SJW propaganda Marvel is using to push for more blind people to read comics.
No character could be good that way.
>>83477156
Legalize and regulate drugs. Actually start hurting their pockets which is what they care about
>>83477961
>i dont know where else to post it
Nowhere.
>>83474153
That is the most depressing thing I've ever read
>>83477961
I approve
>>83478334
>Legalize and regulate drugs.
WEW
If you think organized crime is going to just stop doing business because official business exists you've got a surprise coming. One of the legs the Mafia stood on before the dope came in was grabbing someone's product, whatever it may be, and selling it at cheaper price.
If all the drugs are in store now instead of illegal to make and therefore harder to store and ship without getting pinched, it's like opening a candy store next to a playground.
You've basically just cut their work load short, not business.
>>83474153
True, but at the same time creating a universe where everything works out for the "moral heroes" isn't any better.
If you don't do what "has to be done" then people might get hurt. If we could work out perfect morality in comics, I'm sure we would work it out in the real world.
The problem is people looking at Heroes who dwell in the black and calling them gray.
DC's weird habit of making all of its heroes psychopaths who say that if they step one bit over the line they would just go nuts isn't much better.
Superman can not want to become dictator of the world for its own good without thinking he would become literally Hitler.
>>83478576
That's why the Chicago outfit is stil pinching hooch and selling it on the side while still outwitting the g-men.
