>We need a regulatory body that serves as a watchdog for us because people are scared at the death and destruction that has followed our emergence. Also, the Winter Soldier is an extremely dangerous assassin that has literally altered history in favor of a Nazi organization and he should be stopped by any means necessary.
>BUT MUH BUCKY!
How were these guys the good guys again?
>>83458110
why did you list Winter Soldier's role as if Bucky had a say in the matter? that's like the crux of the whole issue
yawn
>>83458368
Technically with the insanity plea you're not held responsible, but you're not allowed to just walk away scotch-free either like Cap wanted for him
>>83458110
Also, Wanda committed or abetted numerous crimes in the last movie, but putting her under house arrest is JUST TOO MUCH.
But anyway nobody said Cap was right.
>>83458110
>How were these guys the good guys again?
Because for a while, certain people have been hyping up the UN as evil because they want citizens to fear challenges to US hegemony and its unilateral actions.
But those other guys can/should be regulated by the UN. That's fine for them.
>>83459306
>Globalism
>Not literally the end of human freedom
I forget I'm on the best goy board sometimes but even when I remember I'm still upset people like you think like this.
>>83459186
>scotch-free
>>83459219
I love how Wanda gets a pass for being a cute girl. Never mind the war crimes, the casualities and her assistance in Ultron's creation.
>random Nigerian official: "Theres been reports that the Avengers have landed in Lagos in search of the supercriminal Crossbones. Many of our people have fallen victim to these terrorists, although I do not welcome them flying unsanctioned into our country, the Avengers can aid us in capturing these outlaws. Captain America, we are prepared to launch a joint task force with the Avengers that can take on any threat. If you share the information you have to track Rumlow, we will coordinate with your team to capture him. If you believe there is a place he will be striking next, we can prep the location in advance with our own men undercover so as to reduce civilian casualties. If you have any idea where he is, we can put measures in place to evacuate endangered areas in advance. What do you say, Captain? "
>Steve: MUH BUCKY MUH COST OF FREEDUMS"
he's a hypocrite 100% wrong fakkit
>>83459186
Yea, he would go to a mental hospital for awhile which would be perfect for him. Sadly though they wanted to shoot him on sight at first then he got mind raped to try and escape. The movie really should have ended with him turning himself in for help.
Why Tony didn't bring the J-Soc when Cap refused to listen and started the airport fight?
Why he didn't bring the army to Siberia?
>inb4 he promised Falcon to go alone
>>83459416
What the fuck is freedom anon? We're all slaves to something already.
>>83459186
To be fair, the crime that started the big manhunt for him was one he actually didn't commit
>>83459583
If we're all slaves why does US hegemony bother you so much anyway?
Do you people ever think these things through?
Fuck off with this moral relativism, it even defeats your own arguments.
saving a nice husbando or waifu is always the right side, OP
>>83459546
To be fair she gets a pass partly for being cute and partly for the new creative team ignoring everything that Whedon wrote.
Even her powers are different this time.
because captain America is supposed to represent the old, good America.
In that America we didn't sell out our best friends to the globalists
>>83458110
Having every world saving action approved by UN committee, taking more time, more death.
The government is literally just Hydra in this universe.
>>83459826
Unless they're communists
>>83458110
Captain America is a hypocrite and a fascist, news at 11.
If you want accountability and effective responses to global threats, and the UN is the FIRST thing that comes to mind, then you're a fucking idiot.
>dude i want my pal bucky to be free
>lmao JK put him on ice
Oh well
The Bucky/ Deathlok film should be great
>>83459865
>implying communists are our friends
They ARE the globalists
>>83459826
>is supposed to represent the old, good America.
The one that tried to took over Panama?
The one that went to war with Spain?
The one that tried to fuck Cuba?
The one that fucked up latin american and killed presidents?
The one that fucked up the middle east to protect israel??
>>83459826
>In that America we didn't sell out our best friends to the globalists
Only to the jewish masters
>>83459882
I have the right to invade any country i want and kill my enemies there.
Steve was literally George Bush in the movie.
>>83460002
>>83460041
He's not wrong.
>>83458110
>literally altered history
'How can Tony Stark be born if Bucky killed his parents?' was just a meme, lad.
How can anyone think steve was right is beyond me.
Want to protect bucky? Made a public add asking bucky to stand down or go and surrend himself.
>>83460121
>He's not wrong.
He's defending globalism by listing actions taken by globalist governments, he's a moron.
Anyone who thinks one world government = no war is a moron.
>>83459554
>The movie really should have ended with him turning himself in for help.
It did. Sort of. Freezing himself and having the Wakanda's work on his brain is getting help.
Turning himself into Ross though. Yeah that's a bad idea. Beyond the fact that Ross really wanted him dead for some reason, he's so incompetent anyone could just kill and replace a psychiatrist and then Hydra trigger him again.
Wakanda at least he's safe there.
And that was what Steve wanted all along. He didn't want Bucky to walk totally free he just wanted him to not be killed by a trigger happy Ross or be sent through a kangaroo court that had no intention of playing fair.
Remember Ross was disapointed Bucky wasn't killed and laughed at the idea of him getting any of fair due process. That's not the kind of people Bucky needs to be turned in to.
>>83458110
Explain how oversight would have changed Crossbones blowing up a bunch of Nigerians and a few Wakandans.
>>83460331
Crossbones didn't do that, Wanda did.
>>83460376
Crossbones would have blown up someone. Wanda just shifted the target.
People would still be dead.
>>83460376
You're right. If she didn't interfere he would have just killed dozens of Nigerians instead.
>>83460331
I think the problem isn't so much the destruction caused, but the lack of oversight and authorization from the proper authorities. The Avengers didn't respect the sovereignty of nations, and engaged in hostile action whilst doing so.
>>83458110
>We need a regulatory body that serves as a
Translation: General Thunderbolt Ross runs The Avengers now. WHAT COULD GO WRONG?
>Winter Soldier is an extremely dangerous assassin
True
>he should be stopped by any means necessary
All that was actually necessary was talking to Cap. If the German special forces hadn't stormed the building, Cap could have talked him into coming in under Cap's custody, maybe even had an alibi to prove he wasn't anywhere near Vienna at the time that photo was taken. Summary execution without due process is not how good guys operate.
*That* is why Cap was the good guy. He was standing up for the "reasonable doubt" and "innocent until proven guilty" as opposed to Thunderbolt "Shoot first and don't bother asking questions" Ross.
>>83460543
>If the German special forces hadn't stormed the building
They wouldn't have done so if Cap was operating through proper channels though.
>>83459186
>Scotch-free
>Scotch
>>83460583
Yes would have. Proper channels was that Cap was not to get involved in any way because he'd disapprove of them shooting first and asking questions never.
He asked proper channels with Widow. She told him to say out of it.
>>83460376
Literally retarded. He would have blown up the whole shopping area. Which is definitely more than what Wanda moved it to.
>>83460583
FALSE.
The Avengers were not dispatched to Romania to bring Bucky in. The Counter-Terrorism Task Force was dispatched to Bucky's house to kill him. Even Rhodey didn't show up until after the chase scene. Cap would have been sitting with Tony, Wanda, Nat, or Vision because Ross wouldn't have sent him out.
>>83460772
>he'd disapprove of them shooting first and asking questions never.
To be fair, Bucky was an infamous terrorist, considered armed and extremely dangerous. They don't know what the fuck he's gonna pull if they try to apprehend him.
>>83459186
Cap didn't want him to be completely absolved of the crimes he committed and be completely free without getting any help.
He wanted his best friend who he just recently found out is even alive to be taken alive and given a fair trial and ideally get help to break the conditioning. The government gave their men orders to kill on sight and Black Panther was out for blood to avenge his father for the crime everyone thought Bucky committed, so if Cap didn't step in Bucky would have been killed by one of them.
>>83460801
The bystanders on the street were about 15-20 feet away from Cap and Rumlow, but there were a lot of them. While it would have meant blowing up a bunch of cheap fruit stands instead of damaging an expensive building, there's really no reason to assume that Wanda affected the death toll either way. She didn't actually even throw him into the building, she threw him up in the air beside it, the blast from the suicide vest threw him horizontally into the building.
Hell, from the dialogue in the film it seems like the only reason that even mattered was because WAKANDANS were in that building and apparently killing one of them is way worse than killing anyone else. Also it is kind of funny how no one seems to blame the outlaw mercenary who wore and triggered a suicide-bomber vest.
>>83460277
Who is defending globalism?
if anything is saying interventionism is wrong
>>83458110
>As a government, we should be regulating your actions
>Oh yeah, that time when we tried to nuke New York? That's totally on you 47 people got killed anyway!
>Oh, and that time we got infiltrated by Hydra and almost got off the ground plan to mass-genocide everything we disliked? Ooops! But hopefully it won't happen again, fingers crossed!
Avengers don't need government to keep them in check, government/UN/Shield/etc need Avengers to keep THEM in check.
Entire point of superhero mythos is about regular people rising up to an occasion when governments (police, firemen, etc) don't do enough, not about superpowered police acting as government-sanctioned black-ops squad with a license to kill.
>>83460886
>They don't know what the fuck he's gonna pull if they try to apprehend him
Which is exactly why Steve tried to beat them to it, because "I'm the least likely to die trying."
Did anyone else think the graphic depiction of Bucky raping Tony's mother was a bit excessive?
>fly unsanctioned to foreign country
>share none of your intel about dangerous criminals roaming about foreign government
>engage said terrorists in immensely populated area
>make no effort to involve the now-panicked and thrown-into-chaos local authorities
>leave dozens of dead civilians in your wake
>assume absolutely no responsibility afterwards
....people actually defend this asshole?
>>83461066
>47 people got killed anyway!
I'd just like to point out that even if a whole million people died in Sokovia that day, that still means the Avengers attempt to save everyone in the world was 99.99986% successful.
>>83461197
Who cares about sovereign countries America knows what's best for you. As long as you believem you are right, no one's else freedom, independence and rights matter.
>>83461197
Like America does?
>>83461197
Didn't you hear Anon? You don't have to follow international law if you wear a costume!
>>83461301
>As long as you believem you are right, no one's else freedom, independence and rights matter.
You mean like how Germany went in to exterminate Bucky? Because obviously his rights weren't being considered by anyone except Cap and maybe Falcon.
Or maybe you mean how Iron Man just blew the shit out of a whole bunch of civilian aircraft that couldn't have possibly outrun him anyway. Because the owners of those aircraft weren't enjoying their right to not have a monomaniacal billionaire destroying their private property.
>>83461468
>You mean like how Germany went in to exterminate Bucky?
You mean how the German Police tried to arrest a dangerous criminal terrorist that was illegal in their country?
Shot to kill means that at least the target surrender he is going down, if Bucky lay in the ground and didnt attack anyone he would had survived.
But him and Steve attacked POLICEMEN doing their Job.
Of course if a chinese hero attacks the police in New York the reaction of Murrikan and steve would had been really different.
>Or maybe you mean how Iron Man just blew the shit out of a whole bunch of civilian aircraft that couldn't have possibly outrun him anyway. Because the owners of those aircraft weren't enjoying their right to not have a monomaniacal billionaire destroying their private property.
Who is defending Iron Man? Also, you are comparing the property of a few with the independence of an entire nation. Autistic fuck.
>>83458110
See, thing is, Cap is right because; What if it HAD a plot to unleash the Winter Soldiers? They would've gotten there just as they were being woken up, if Cap had complied and surrendered himself and Bucky to Stark, they would've been too late to stop it.
ON THE OTHER HAND, Tony is right because if cap HAD complied with Stark, they would've maybe figured out that Bucky was framed without all the fallout, but there was still the potential of those Soldiers being turned loose, though they would've all worked together to stop it.
Despite your general oversimplification to "muh Bucky" that was hardly the basis of the Cap argument, it was really just an aside.
Sometimes oversight adds too much overhead time before things can get done, but other times that same oversight can give you a more informed landscape to take action on. Do things now and be damned the consequences, or approach carefully and be damned for over-cautiousness?
>>83462096
Bullshit. Ross sent those guys to kill Bucky. They literally say this in the movie.
He even says afterward that if Cap hadn't interfered Bucky would be dead.
>>83460002
>The one that...
No, the one that fought for the Allies in WW2
>>83460002
>I have the right to invade any country i want and kill my enemies there.
>You will invade any country we want and kill the enemies the committee tells you to.
>>83462158
>They literally say this in the movie.
Yes, Shot to kill when Steve is talking to revange girl.
Bucky invaded a country illegally. A wanted criminal that was involved in countless homicides broke into their country and now probably blow up several politicians.
Shoot to kill if he resisted as expected. Steve Attacked the police. Instead of arresting Bucky himself and K.O. him before the police got there.
>>83462209
>the one that fought for the Allies in WW2
How was that a good thing? America should had never been involved in Europe. Only Japan was a real enemy.
>>83462375
USA's involvement saved millions of lives, that counts.
>>83458110
>MUH GUBMENT WILL SOLVE ALL MY PROBLEMS
>>83458110
Literally Tony Stark.
>>83462375
Japan had allies in Europe, fool.
The US was brought into a WORLD WAR not a simple pissing match with Japan.
>>83462433
>USA's involvement saved millions of lives
Not really. The brits should had never been involved.
>>83462503
>The US was brought into a WORLD WAR
After supporting the brits for almost 3 years.
America should had been truly neutral toward the nazis.
>>83462513
>Conquest of neighboring allied European states has nothing to do with GB
Are you baiting or some kind of autistic naziboo?
>>83459186
Anon. It's not a matter of being innocent or not. It's a matter of due process. Something that i bet you have no idea how it works.
>>83462513
Don't they hate France anyway?
>>83461055
Wanda is an immigrant so is an easy scapegoat, especially for the US media, as implied in the movie, it's a play on the racism/mutant angle from the comics.
People are scared of meta-humans and the ensuing chaotic nature of the world surrounding them.
>>83462545
US as a sovereign nation can choose to engage in trade with whoever it wants.
Commerce is not an act of war.
>>83459662
>why does US hegemony bother you so much anyway?
Because they are hypocrites and manipulative bastards that deserve to be fucked for every single thing that they have done.
>>83462597
Someone's mad
>>83461125
The moment where Howard said "Now, Bucky...that's not how Steve would do it...Steve would ease in then pump his freedom in, Steve's a total natural, you know."
That was a strange moment.
>>83460376
Yeah, if she didn't do anything a lot of other nigerians would have died, along with Cap.
>>83462662
Yes. I am.
You assholes go to other nations. You kill, you establish puppet governments and let the massacre begins. Then when you can't control those tyrannical bastards you train extremists and like the fucking morons you are, then THEY get out of your hands and kill YOUR civilians (the only good part of your involvement is when your people, your soldiers and civilians, die).
Fuck you. You deserved 9/11 and more.
>>83459662
>If we're all slaves why does US hegemony bother you so much anyway?
I didn't say it did. Just saying that's why they don't like the UN. Just like other countries with less power like the UN because it gives them more influence in situations where more powerful nations would want to steamroll them.
People on top like to stay on top tend to resent limitations being placed on them by those who are not on top. And people who aren't on top like seeing restrictions on the top because it allows them some means of keeping them in check.
>>83462742
These nations are third world shitholes anyway who cares
>>83462741
1 American = 10 French
1 French = 100 Asians
1 Asian = 1000 Africans
According to my calculations...
1 Wakandan = 500 Nigerians
>>83462375
Holy fuck.
You realize that
a) Japan attacked preemptively of a declaration of war, it was on regardless of what the USA was going to do about it.
b) Germany declared war on the US as they were an ally of Japan.
Not even an American but your blatant hateboner for the US is pathetic and blatantly ignoring the basic reasons why America joined the War.
>>83462840
The mexican raping your daughters and the mudslim using your flag as a cum rag.
>>83462824
>UN
>Influence
Dohohoho
>>83459546
Tbh Black Widow got similar special treatment.
>>83462878
I thought those were the stars...
>>83462878
So nobody of importance, got it thanks
>>83460255
he means that the Hydra benefited from having the Winter Soldier to help shape history, you dimwit
>>83462854
So a Wakandan is half an Asian, half a percent of a French and .0005% American?
I thought that for every 1 American you had it was worth about a trillion Nigerians.
>>83462271
The bottom is how it works. A bunch of Korean citizens can't take it upon themselves to come onto US soil, apprehend/kill bad guys, cause several deaths and hundreds of thousands/millions in collateral damage,and then just fly back to their base in Korea without impunity.
Then turn around and say, "But if we hadn't done that, a Chinese nuke would have gone off and taken out a US city!"
>>83462988
Yes, think of it like the value of Zimbabwean currency.
>>83459546
>war crimes
>casualities
>assistance in Ultron's creation
...Banner?
>>83463020
Exactly what I was doing.
>>83460331
>Explain how oversight would have changed Crossbones blowing up a bunch of Nigerians and a few Wakandans.
It was have resulted in someone getting fired and some kind of restitution instead of just having Wanda feel bad for a bit before she runs off to some other country to engage in more acts of war.
Don't act like you wouldn't be pissed if Hulk bust through your house and killed your friends/family in pursuit of Abomination, but nobody's responsible for it.
> Isn't Odin on Earth in Thor: Ragnarok?
> That could easily end up with Thor saying "Fuck Midgard!"
>>83463120
>but nobody's responsible for it.
Yes, Ross is.
That's why the Avengers being under his command is absolutely retarded.
>>83463120
>but nobody's responsible for it.
Except the Abomination.
>>83463120
Of course, but I'd be blaming Abomination long before the Hulk
The Avengers aren't imposing their will on anyone, they're just trying to stop super villains. And I trust them to do that a lot more than UN pencil pushers.
>>83458110
Cap isn't right, Tony is just more wrong
>>83463120
>It was have resulted in someone getting fired and some kind of restitution
So shifting the blame just like Cap said, meanwhile hamstringing the only people who have the potential to stop things like this from happening.
You can't tell me seeing some worthless suit get fired would ease your pain.
>>83463171
It was really stupid that nobody called him out on it
>but Ross did a good job covering it up
They hang out with Bruce Banner. They should know about Abomination
>>83462936
>Said the white cuck
>>83462296
>if he resisted
no it was shoot on sight as in the second you see him no matter what kill him.
>probably
but he wasn't, it was a frame up, if cap didn't do what he did bucky would've died for something he literally never did.
>>83463266
What is Cap not right about?
He's 100% right about everything in the movie
>>83462597
I love how the US makes eurocucks so mad because it causes them to self reflect of how fucked up and shitty they are themselves
So now that the Avengers are officially working for the government, does that mean they'll have Henry "I'm the Government" Gyrich as their liason? A man who literally hates superhumans and on more than one occasion tried to have them all wiped out?
>muh gubmit will know what's best
>muh gubmit can't be corrupted
>muh gubmit wont take too long to act
>I want the heroes to be glorified peace keepers
how about no, even tony in the end has to go behind the UN's back to help steve against the threat of super soldiers
>>83463303
Down to the "muh dick" argument already friend?
>>83463387
>eurocucks
Wish it was only them. But truth is, Americans are hated EVERYWHERE except maybe Japan. You guys are great targets for crime lords and petty criminals.
>>83463453
Hey, i'm Spanish and I don't hate americans.
Fuck Australians though.
>>83463422
It's that or "muh blood". Pick your poison.
>>83463014
>that's how it works
>therefore that's how it should work
nah son, say they aren't allowed in because america isn't buying their shit about this nuke, then america gets nuked. that's millions dead and billions in property damage. that's how that shit would operate in real life.
When it comes to Thanos only Wanda, Strange, Thor, Vision, Hulk, and Captain Marvel can make any difference, and they will probably do so away from Earth.
The rest (aside from ANTS) can't do diddly.
>>83463171
>Yes, Ross is.
But Ross was trying to stop the runaway Hulk. Unleashing Abomination and all the shit he did was because he was trying to stop who he thought was the bad guy.
So... just sucks to be you. Stop getting in the way when people trying to save you destroy your home and kill your family.
>>83463640
Isn't Ross responsible for creating Hulk too?
>So... just sucks to be you. Stop getting in the way when people trying to save you destroy your home and kill your family.
How about you put in charge someone who isn't completely useless?
>>83463529
>nah son, say they aren't allowed in because america isn't buying their shit about this nuke, then america gets nuked. that's millions dead and billions in property damage. that's how that shit would operate in real life.
No, they have super stealthy jets that allow them to fly around the planet and intervene wherever they see fit.
>>83463602
Fuck off with your power levels faggotry, how are the heavy hitters supposed to deal with Thanos when they have a thousands of mooks nipping at their ankles.
>>83463675
>>How about you put in charge someone who isn't completely useless?
I agree. I don't think it should be >insert US authority here< though. It should be someone from my country who decides when, where, and how the Avengers operate in other peoples' countries.
>>83463675
>Isn't Ross responsible for creating Hulk too?
Banner created the Hulk.
>>83462840
>implying the US isn't a third nation world right now
>implying Europe isn't as well
The whole world is going down the drain anyway.
>>83463765
When Ross lied to him about the nature of the chemical he was working with.
>>83459186
>scotch-free
Not being able to drink anymore should be punishment enough.
>>83463640
He wasn't trying to stop Hulk. He was trying to get Hulk back so he could be replicated and weaponized.
>>83463739
> Unchecked power is dangerous.
> But so is slow bureaucracy.
I suppose that's where Captain Marvel will come in as she might be seen as trustworthy and pallatable to both sides.
>>83463954
How about they let the Avengers do their thing on their own, but inprison Stark?
>>83458110
Because the people regulating them were the same ones that were infiltrated by the Nazi group and once planned to nuke all of New York
They had a 10x worse damage streak but that didn't come up cause plot
>>83464722
/thread
>>83458110
Iron Man is worse.
>>83463030
is in hiding
>>83459546
The writers confirmed she did literally nothing wrong.
>>83458110
>We need a regulatory body that serves as a watchdog
>Because it's not like a regulatory body serving as a watchdog being easily manipulated or corrupted wasn't THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT OF THE LAST CAPTAIN AMERICA MOVIE
>>83458110
To be fair that all took a back seat to them believing Zemo was going to release a small force of psychotic super-soldiers.
>>83467261
>Q: Why was it necessary to put the winter soldier back on ice?
>A: Well because, I mean for one thing he is, give or take his intellectual capacity, 100% guilty. And to have Steve just running around getting free salads with him on some island, it's a little too unpunished, in a way. This is not a guy who should be running around happily. He may not be 100% guilty, but he's damn sure not 100% innocent.
>Q: Why does that not apply to Wanda Maximoff?
>A: Wanda...
>Q: You think she suffered enough?
>A: I don't think she did anything near as bad [...] None of those things were terribly interesting to us, the punishing of nice people, who already feel guilt. In the Bucky issue is... it was a bridge too far I think.
>>83462375
Yes but Steve represents the kind of American Idealism that people believed in at that time. jesus fucking christ, pick up a few books, or actually watch one of the movies and you'd understand that.
why did the same government that tried to nuke the island of Manhattan try to blame the Avengers for collateral damage
Why did Vision say that so much shit was the Avengers fault because villains are "challenging" them- does HYDRA exist just to challenge the avengers?
>>83462296
>They literally say this in the movie.
>Yes, Shot to kill when Steve is talking to revange girl.
No, Ross literally says "Barnes would have been eliminated" later in the film.
Maybe you don't read Hulk, or maybe you didn't even watch the Incredible Hulk movie, but Ross is an "I want to make sure that guy is DEAD" kind of dick.
>>83463765
>Banner created the Hulk
Ross tells Blonsky that Banner had no idea the stuff he was working with was super-soldier related. "He thought he was trying to cure cancer."
Bucky did nothing wrong.
Cap knows this and wants to save him.
OP is too stupid to understand a Marvel movie, congrats.
>>83469848
Vision's link to the Mind Gem allows him to be genre savvy, which grants him the knowledge that as long as there are superheroes, there will be supervillains to give them something to do
>>83469848
Because the government thinks it's okay when they kill people, they're tone deaf hypocrites.
And vision is partly right. Loki attacked Earth largely to piss off Thor and all the enemies two generations of Stark scumbaggery came to a head after Tony became Iron man.
>>83469917
Bucky did lots wrong, he just didn't do it willingly
I think the problem with brain washing plots like this is that they... I mean is that a thing in real life? There are plenty of people who are tricked into doing terrible shit because they're dumb, but straight up Manchurian Canidate shit?
Then again, it's a movie with a teenager in tights who can walk up walls and psychic Olsen sibling, so no sense in dwelling on how realistic this or that is
>>83469981
That's not Bucky. That's Winter Soldier.
>>83458110
>Cap looks angelic with dick sucking lips
>Bucky looks like a haggard deranged frog
>>83470008
I'm not a psychiatrist but I don't know if that kind of defense holds up in any kind of legal sense
>>83470035
>doubting the ultimate judge, Captain fuckin' America
>>83467698
BURN ALL WANDAFAGS
>>83459546
If Tony Stark himself doesn't get comeuppance for creating Ultron then why would Wanda
Friendly reminder that Cap's entire point is proven by the simple fact that Ross is allowed to have power with this regulatory committee
Ironfags BTFO
>>83469848
>does HYDRA exist just to challenge the avengers?
Good point.
Let's add this up:
>Incredible Hulk
Ross wants to mass-produce Hulks, Blonsky says "I want what he has." Point for Vision, but also point against Ross.
>Iron Man 2
Whiplash's only motivation is to challenge Stark. Point for Vision
>Thor
Loki has daddy issues and sibling rivalry.
>Captain America
Hydra's plan to take over the world precedes Cap's existence. Arguable as "world-ending threat"
>The Avengers
Loki wants to be king of something. World-ending threat.
>Iron Man 3
Tony literally, verbally, invites challenge from Mandarin (Killian).
>Thor: The Dark World
Elves from before the existence of light resume their plan to return the universe to darkness. World-ending threat.
>Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Hydra tries to take over the world (again). World-ending threat
>Guardians of the Galaxy
Ronan is a dick who wants to destroy Xander.
>Avengers: Age Of Ultron
Tony builds a murderbot that wants to end all life on earth. Wanda and Pietro want to challenge Tony but end up on his side by the end of the film. World-ending threat. Point for Vision.
>Ant-Man
Darren Cross wants to get rich off the arms race.
So out of 11 films, there were 5 "world-ending threat" scenarios, and 4 "our existence invites challenge" issues. Two of those were directed at Iron Man specifically, and the third was General Ross making Blonsky a super-soldier. And none of the "world-ending threats" fall into the "our very existence invites challenge" category except for the murderbot that Tony Stark programmed.
Let me reiterate that:
3/4 of the "our existence invites challenge" were actully "Tony Stark pisses people off". The only "world-ending threat" that was also "our existence invites challenge" was the fucking robot that Tony built.
The Avengers aren't the problem. Tony Stank is.
>>83470035
the events in Jessica Jones set the legal precedence. If you can proof you were mind controlled, you are not held accountable for your actions at the time.
It's just hard to get enough proof beyond reasonable doubt
>>83470205
I would say OG Ant-Man's existence/Pym particles existence invited the challenge of Cross. He wanted to figure it out, do better, etc.
Getting rich was just a bonus. His motivation was beating Hank.
>>83469848
>"challenging" them- does HYDRA exist just to challenge the avengers?
More like the other way around. Hydra want's world domination. The Avengers fight that. In order to continue their quest, they have to step up their game in order to fend off the Avengers. It's simply escalation.
>>83470248
Nah, that wouldn't extend to the "challenge begets conflict" thing because Cross never intended to fight anyone. At best you could argue that he was going to provide the means for "Hydra tries to take over the world (again)(again)" which is already established to predate even Captain America.
For contrast, Whiplash's desire to challenge Iron Man led directly to violence. Tony inviting Mandarin to his house led directly to violence. If Pym hadn't sent Lang to interfere, Cross would have just sat in an office collecting money for providing shrinky-particles.
If anything, you might argue that Cross's possession of the particles invited conflict from Pym and Lang, but not the other way around.
>>83470861
Sounds like you're splitting hairs
Cross was still giving someone the means to rule the world because of Hank Pym
>>83469848
It wasn't just the U.S. government it was also the majority of the member nations of the UN, who if I recall correctly aren't responsible for the actions taken by the United States.
>>83459976
Bucky asked for it himself, said it'd be safest for everyone until there's a cure.
>>83460376
>let crossbones blow up
>kills a bunch of people
or
>try to move the explosion away from ground and pedestrians
>unfortunately the force field doesn't hold in time
>kills a bunch of people
How is that Wandas fault? It was beyond her capability yet she still tried to save innocent lives. What else can you ask for?
>>83461197
>captain AMERICA
>>83470205
You forgot about the first Iron Man. Stane was already an evil asshole his scheming was what led to Tony becoming Iron Man in the first place.
>>83458110
But anon they were not the true hero was Iron Man. Just all the Caps and MUH BUCKY fans are do blind to see it
Everyone's bitching about Sokovia but what about Tony and the fact that he basically created Ultron?
>>83471867
Yeah, Tony "I Nearly Destroyed The Planet" Stark is such a hero.
>>83471928
No one outside the Avengers and maybe Cho knows he made it. They literally have plausible deniability with that one. They could've easily wrote it off as a Hydra experiment gone out of control. Which isn't too far off from the truth. Most of the Ultron drones were designed and produced by Hydra. And they were working on an artificial intelligence platform.
>Hydra is a thing in the MCU.
>Trusting any type of government official or organization/people after TWS, that isn't Stark, The Avengers, or Pym.
>The Fucking UN of all places wanting to control The Avengers.
I think Steve is 110% in the right here, and that Tony only did anything in CW was because he was guilt tripped by a random black lady waiting for the elevator.
>"Muh Son died, you killed him Stark, I hate you."
>If the Avengers didn't stop Ultron then the whole world would have died, and the remaining few would have been enslaved, including your son.
>Implying people aren't going to get killed during Alien invasions and Rouge AI's trying to Colony drop the planet.
Holy fuck I loved Civil War, but hate it.
>>83458110
Friendly reminder that the comic Avengers operated under a UN Charter in the 1990s, which they tore up because they needed to intervene in Genosha to save Quicksilver's daughter
>>83459186
When was it ever implied that Cap wants that?
>>83462209
So the one that forcibly stuck it's own citizens in camps and then nuked civilians? ;^)
>>83458110
>Operating under the UN
>As opposed to answering to an unelected subcommittee of lunatics like the WSC
The Sokovia Accords seemed like they were about accountability, both for the Avengers and for those who nominally controlled them. But we never actually found out what was in them because >Muh Bucky
I'm not denying the Avengers need the opportunity to act/react on the spur of the moment without getting an arbitrary signoff. But some level of accountability works. For example, if there'd been some sort of post-mission debrief/inquiry done after the Crossbones incident, the evidence could have been examined, and Wanda would have been absolved of all blame. Sure, the Wakandans would have been butthurt about losing their guys but the truth about her saving 100s of civilians would have come out.
>>83472019
>If the Avengers didn't stop Ultron then the whole world would have died, and the remaining few would have been enslaved, including your son
Tony Stank is the creator of Ultron. He was saddened by IM3, Ultron, Pepper leaving. The black lady just pushed him over the edge.
People will die during Alien Invasions sure, but it looks bad when the people fighting them seem to not care about collateral damage. I mean come on, fucking Hulk is fighting with them
>>83472173
We know what was in there was troubling enough that Steve said while it might not be impossible, there would have to be safeguards. So evidently there definitely are or were holes and problems that made him severely uncomfortable.
>>83462271
That didn't stop George W Bush from invading Iraq when the UN told them they couldn't. The fact that he and everyone else involved didn't suffer and consequences from the UN shows what little power they actually have. If the UN can't stop a country from going to war how could they hope to control The Avengers?
>>83459186
>scotch free
>>83472196
Tony was Ultron's father, but Ultron literally became "evil" himself.
>Ultron was created to be Humanities protector.
>He accessed the Internet to learn of the world, and found out, "Fuck, Humans are awful.".
>Decides to take action and "Fix" the problem.
In other words, Ultron had well intentions for a few mere moments, before becoming a "Human", and going completely genocidal on humanity.
I mean if you have a Nearly unstoppable creature that has some control over itself, and aliens Invade, why not use it?
Hulk is a bomb with infinite uses, He's extremely useful for destroying something or large masses of something, but also causing tons of collateral damage in the process.
With Aliens are pouring in to destroy the world and when most of your team is just normal/Enhanced humans(Ground soldiers), you use the fucking Hulk.
I'm just waiting to see the "UN"/World/Ross get pissed at the damage Thanos causes in IW 1/2.
>"The Avengers killed half of the planet, caused a rip in space/time, and damaged my car. You all need to be under tighter regulations!".
>"You killed my Son, Stark! If only you didn't react to a Literal God who was wreaking everyone's shit, my son and Ross's car would still be alive!".
>Bucky is blamed for the IWs, and owns the Infinity Gauntlet, CIVIL WAR 2: Cap. Marvel vs Alcoholic Iron Man.
>>83470966
1. Cross doesn't even *have* hairs
2. Hydra wanting to take over the world is not caused by the "our very strength invites challenge"
>>83471838
No, I didn't. I left it out because Vision's "equation" started with "since Mr Stank revealed himself as Iron Man" which was at the end of that movie.
But even if you count it, it still doesn't contribute to the "heroes cause villains" idiocy because The Ten Rings predated the construction of the Iron Man prototype. It's more a situation of "villains cause heroes".
>tfw Iron Man was wrong and has always been wrong
It's an amazing feel
Fuck
Iron
Shit
>>83462209
oh right, that two yearperiod
Iron Man took the right position, handling it very wrong
Captain had the right complains, but acted terribly wrong
>>83472650
This.
Someone make a webm of Wanda burying him with cars.
>>83458110
If it wasn't for SHIELD fucking around with the tesseract in the first place, none of the destruction would've happened.
>>83458110
>Hey that whole Shield thing worked out so well, you know what we need, more bureaucracy limiting our ability to stop extinction level events. Those can probably wait a few hours while the UN decides whether it's important or not.
>Wow, within a literal day of it's inception, someone infiltrated and abused it to cause mass havoc, what a fucking amazing idea this was.
Because we all know the UN is the most morally just and efficient peacekeeping force on the planet.
>>83472932
>Saudi Arabia in charge of the UN Human Rights Council.
>>83458110
Cap's tits are sizeable enough to motorboat
>>83458110
It all makes sense now. It's like Marvel was telling us something by revealing that 616 Cap was an agent of Hydra all along. It shouldn't too long before the MCU follows suit with this plot thread.
>>83462742
>accusing Americans of setting up puppet governments
These eurocucks sure do like to forget the imperialist regimes theyve created and sabotaged
Last I checked the countries america has been in were taken by civil war that had nothing to do with the US itself
Meanwhile your "sun never sets" British Empire instigated the largest shit storm India has ever seen and the rest of you fucks made sure Africa didn't develop even to this day
Fuck Europe and everything you liberal asswads stand for, all you do is fuck up and 180 until you believe it isn't your fault
>>83469848
Vision saying that is very ironic given he is a walking Thanos magnet. What if the US/UN governmnent dismantles him (like in West Coast Avengers) in a bid to appease Thanos?
Vision: "What if Thanos comes for me?"
Wanda: "We'll "protect" you by pandering to Thanos."
>>83470205
> Why was Thanos interested in Earth...at all? I mean...why?
> He seems to have no real motive; but Loki and The Other do and they are both manipulators/spies/agents/monkey's paw dispensers.
> Was it Loki's jelly hate-boner for Thor making him want to take Midgard from him?
> Was it The Other manipulating Loki and Thanos to serve his ownpossibly Witchyends?
> There is no logical reason for Thanos to come to Earth once he has all the stones.
>>83459186
Give us yer scotch then you get the fuck out of here!
>>83467698
> Basically "None of the things Joss did were interesting to us."
> Wanda is a good person who feels bad about the bad things she did and on top of that is always uncertain. It's more a thing of wrestling with her self-doubt, guilt, and fear of herself.
> Bucky had just been shown killing Tony's parents so they didn't want to make it look like he gave no fucks. Him hanging out with Steve at the end would have made him look like an asshole. Bucky himself did not do the killings but he is a danger; showing Bucky agreeing to be frozen shows him as being determined to put things right and protect people.
>>83462561
Killing Bucky because capturing him alive is too dangerous is 100% reasonable. Just like the people the Avengers have killed.
>>83469848
>why did the same government that tried to nuke the island of Manhattan try to blame the Avengers for collateral damage
It's not the same government, you dumbass.
>>83472019
Why the fuck are 6 unelected superhumans who want the ability to override all other laws less likely to be HYDRA than the governments of half the planet?
It'd be vastly easier for less than 10 people to be corrupted for a unified cause than hundreds.
>>83472019
Ultron was 100% caused by Avengers. Between 1 and 3 of them, depending on how you argue.
>>83476118
>tfw my waifu is also the writer's waifu
>>83459552
Have
Have you ever been to Nigeria
It would take a massive bribe on your part to convince the Nigerian military and/or "police" to do even one of those things
>>83476118
>>83467698
>Let's turn a unique, flawed female character into an innocent, helpless victim
>>83461197
>make no effort to involve the now-panicked and thrown-into-chaos local authorities
>trying to involve local Nigerian authorities without a bribe
>>83462147
underrated post
>>83462513
You literally would stand for a modern day fortress Europe
>>83462147
That's the logic behind having a dictator.
>>83477546
Welcome to waifuism.
>>83462742
Found ISIS
>>83477546
Wanda was always innocent tho.
Tony is an emotional baby that neesa to be out in check and not get super buttblasted when he finds out his parents were killed by a mind controlled assassin.
>>83459306
HAHAHAHAHA you're such a fucking faggot honestly
I hate unilateral American action as much as anyone else; I also hate the fucking UN because it's a despicable, lying organisation that makes shit up and puts countries like Saudi Arabia on the council for women's rights (which exists, for some reason).
You're a fucking tool, mate. The US -- Hell, all of Europe -- shouldn't get involved in shitholes like Iraq, because those shitholes should drown in their own blood and mud like the rest of the world has had to do for all time.
Go fuck yourself. You can dislike globalism while disliking the US. The fucking UN is a tool of the US anyway given its currency is American and its HQ is in New York. America is the CENTRE of globalism.
>>83477778
How would you react if it was your parents?
>>83477546
>implying you wouldn't want to protect your waifu's smile
>>83478039
I would probably always hate or at least dislike Bucky for being involved, but still understand he was just a tool. The fact that it happened so many years ago would help keep me from starting a pointless fight over it.
If I wanted to watch an adult orphan angst about his parents death there's always Batman.
>>83458110
>"They're coming, and they're not interested in taking you in alive."
>they take him in alive
I can't believe the movie made me side with Tony but it did
>>83458110
Iron Manlet is a cuck Smh Tbh Pham
Cap could've diffused the fight between Bucky and Tony if he tried just a bit more than Punching and quips, but instead opted to kick Tony's ass. That was pretty brutal, even for Cap.
Also anyone else wanna point out that the vision was gonna fucking kill Sam Wilson, and instead caused James Rhodes to live the rest of his days in a wheel chair
>>83480146
He tried multiple times during the fight to stop Tony. Saying it wasn't him, Hydra had control of his mind, etc. He didn't go full on berserker on Tony until he blasted Bucky's arm off. Before he was mostly knocking him away and trying to buy Bucky time to get the fuck out of there.
>>83458110
no matter your opinions on the regulation of the avengers, Tony was 100% wrong by the end of the movie. It's not even debatable: Tony broke the accords because they failed in exactly the way Steve predicted. Tony told Ross that Steve and Bucky were going to Siberia to stop Zemo from waking the super soldiers, and Ross blocked Tony from going, so Tony disobeyed Ross and went anyway.
Tony broke the accords he supported. He was wrong.
>>83478403
Not that guy and I'm as TeamCap as anyone, but there is a difference between finding out and seeing it happen on video.
>>83467698
She has such a cute smile.I can't help thinking about those lips wrapping around my dick.
>>83480146
Rhodey and Vision are goddamn idiots
>yeah please target the glider behind me instead of the actual Quinjet itself
So is Iron Man's entire team
>maybe we should just blow up the Quinjet before they get to i- nah we got Spiderman for this fight
>>83481118
Lewd.
Regardless of Bucky's innocence he didn’t cause the bombing in the UN and Cap went to help clear him from that.
Also Cap has more conviction and sticks to his guns unlike Tony Stank who flip flops when he wants to, he didn’t even backed the accords 100% and let Cap take the prosoners and escaped.
Because he's rich and does what he wants and he's above the law.
>>83476187
They didn't kill Loki, they captured him (and probably didn't even give him that drink... bastards).
>>83478676
Did you miss the part where it was mentioned that if Cap hadn’t intervene that Bucky would have been killed? I think it was Ross that said it.
>>83477546
In CW she's trying to better herself and wants to be accepted by the world, but realizes it won't. Her flaws stem from her vulnerability and fear ofherself
Also, I just realized she and Thanos are both outcasts plagued by self-doubt.
>>83480645
I was quite baffled by that scene with Tony arriving to the prison. At that point everyone knew Zemo was the culprit also knew about his plan of the supersoldier army, but neither Ross, the US or the UN did anyting to stop him, they didn't even care to do anything.
>>83483441
They did not believe the threat was real.
>needing the government's permission to save the world
Does nobody see the problem with this?
