Storytimed here for those who missed it >>83374697
Let's continue the discussion. I think we can all agree that Tony's motivations are fucking stupid even if he did raise some valid points at first.
Civil War II 01 (of 07) (2016) (15 covers) (digital) (Minutemen-Spaztastic)
http://www58.zippyshare.com/v/VEXy2zPm/file.html
>>83379343
that Luke Cage crying or whatever will never not make me laugh.
>>83375113
>I'm going to start shit with the Inhumans and make everything exponentially worse
At least Iso looked great this chapter
>>83379636
What's he even gonna do? Tony presumably wouldn't kill Ulysses, so is his plan to imprison him forever so that nobody can listen to him? Try and depower him?
>>83379343
the true reason for Carol and Tony fighting: Kamala.
Civil War 2: the War for Kamala's Booty
>>83379343
Scarlet Witch shows up and gets shit on should be marked. It happened on this issue.
Although not yet happening, Guardians appearing, and relaunch are confirmed so they should be marked as well.
>>83379618
It should be fine as long as maximus doesn't show up to let them loose like in hickvengers.
>>83379343
To sum it up:
Tony has valid concerns after learning about the pre-cog
Carol doesn't care about petty crime, just wants to stop world ending events, which is justifiable
Rhodey is there when Carol finds out about a Threat from Thanos, who is a constant threat anyway, and they are always looking for. Whether he was going after a cosmic cube or not, if the police see a known criminal or know where a fugitive will be from an informant, they check it out and try and arrest him. Rhodey went to try and arrest Thanos.
Rhodey dies
She-Hulk goes into cardiac arrest, but will probably come back
Tony over reacts, and will make the situation worse by confronting the Inhumans because the event needs to happen
Carol may go full Minority Report to not make the event have two sides equally in the wrong, or not because Woman, and who cares, honestly, this is stupid.
>>83379731
She wasn't really shit on, there was just a joke at her and Hellstorm's expense. Give it time, I'm sure Bendis will do worse with her.
And I think we should fill the bingo out issue by issue, so when the GotG actually show up we put it in, and once issue 7 comes out we fill out the relaunch.
>>83379687
>Kamala is on Tony's side
Its already won.
By the way, who else thinks Hydra Cap will be used on this? Since Ulysses might see that shit.
>>83379343
>The original Civil War came out in 2006, ten years ago. Why make a sequel to it now? Was it born directly out of the movie?
It actually had nothing to do with the movie! Marvel doesn't do a lot of sequels ever. What was going on was [Marvel Editor-in-Chief Axel Alonso and I] were just talking about what’s going on in the world and how it's reflecting in our work. And we're talking about personal accountability and profiling and how people are shocked that their internet behavior has a price. And it's fascinating to me.
We were going on about profiling and what's been going on with the cops all over the country and what's the superhero version of that. And he called me up and went, "Listen, we want to go forward with this idea. We think there's a story in it. Our publisher said we're going to call it Civil War II because everyone else will. We might as well call it that." It's a spiritual sequel, not a direct sequel, and I got very excited about it. It had a lot of challenges to me, creatively, and as I get older, that's all I'm looking for. I know people are like "Ah, you're taking advantage of the movie." It was born out of [a] good story and good timing.
>http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/1/11826766/civil-war-ii-marvel-brian-michael-bendis-interview
>>83379343
We got the Scarlet Witch one, but Teen Jean ruined our chance to get "X-men are absent". However because her existence is Bendis fault we could consider her "Waifu Favoritism".
>>83379804
>Civil War was extremely political in nature. With this one, you're commenting directly on profiling. Was there a particular moment when you decided this would be the right story for your new cast of characters?
Well, yes, actually. We have these Marvel retreats, where all the writers working on the franchise books come to New York and we sit with the editors in a big room — the geekiest Algonquin Round Table you've ever seen — and we talk about what we're going to do and what we've done and what we should be doing that we're not doing. And in this instance, it was specifically for me to show everybody what Civil War II could be. "Here's the moral dilemma in the sand, and what we would like you, the writers, to do is to tell us where your character would go. Tony's side or Carol's side? And [the vote was] right down the middle. That's when you go, "Oh, we got the good stuff!"
I was actually in the room for the birth of the original Civil War event, and it came out of a very similar, organic place. And sometimes that's a tough room, that Marvel editorial retreat. If you can't survive that room, there's no way in hell you're going to survive the internet. I have seen stories die because someone just asked a simple question that pops a hole right in it. But [seeing] how excited people were getting about the idea, the story beats, I got excited. I thought this is gonna be worth doing. If I can get these jaded nerds, I can get everybody on board!
>>83379769
this time it'll be Ahura
or one of the three Kang splinters
>>83379832
>With this story, you have the Inhumans and the Avengers directly involved in the conflict, and Captain Marvel and Iron Man serve as the crux. Without going too deeply into spoilers, can you speak a little about what's going on?
So there's a group of superhumans called the Inhumans, and they're kind of popping up all over the world. A new mini-race of superheroes. And a new Inhuman is birthed into his superpowers, and his superpower, it seems, is being able to have very profound visions. I wouldn't even call them visions, I'd call them experiences of the future. And one of his earliest visions is that of a destroyer coming to earth and leveling us, as is everyone's fear. And because the Inhumans were able to go to the Avengers, they were able to thwart, in the very first issue, this disaster before it happens. Which is very good news. I'm very proud that this is the first Marvel event that opens up with a win. They usually open up with something really bad happening.
Afterwards, the other heroes find out how they were able to get this win — because of this new Inhuman — and that is a moral dilemma for some of the heroes. Like, "This cosmic event coming to destroy us? That's fine. That's all well and good. But if this guy's having visions of the future and we're gonna act on them, we're basically saying we're going to 'arrest' people before they do what they're going to do." And that's a moral quandary.
>>83379804
>that shit site went to great lengths to interver an INFAMOUS comic book writer
>NOBODY IS THE VILLAIN OF THEIR STORY.
lel
How the hell is Tony going to get anyone on his side, he's just a sad man angry at losing a friend.
>>83379865
>How hard is it to balance the both sides of story progresses? In the original storyline, it seemed like Captain America was ultimately in the right. How are you going to go forward and justify the decisions of each side?
I would counter to you that you may have seen that clearly the moral high ground was on Captain America's side, [but] I know for a fact that a great deal of the audience felt like Tony was on the right side of the thing. I saw the movie a couple weeks ago, and I saw the argument spill out into the lobbies of theaters just like I saw it spill out at the original retreat that the story was born in.
I started teaching myself early on, in my earliest days of Ultimate Spider-Man, the idea that nobody is the villain of their story. The Kingpin sees himself as a hero. Norman Osborn [the Green Goblin] sees himself as the hero. This is something you've heard before, but everybody thinks they're right. I'm already writing that way as a writer. I always tell the story that there's no "ha ha ha crazy" villain. Everyone damn well thinks they're the hero of the story and right. So, to come into a story like this, and I'm already thinking that way, that's what the job is. The job really is to not express one idea over the other. It's to express both ideas equally so that the audience on their own can decide what side they want to be on. So just keeping it balanced is the hardest thing to do. But it's not when I equally see Carol and Tony's point, and I actually really do.
>>83379907
>How is it that Tony Stark, in particular, tends to be at the heart of these ideological fights?
Because he's a big pain in the ass! Truthfully, some are very surprised at what side he's on in this one. But Tony is a futurist. He literally closes his eyes and sees the future, sees what it could be, sees what he has to do to make it happen. Like any great inventor he's able to see what we need before we know we need it. That's really what a futurist is. He's [also] a character who has been through all of these other stories, all of these other events. He was in the first Civil War, he was in Secret Invasion, he was in Secret Wars, and these things profoundly affected him, so he's damn well sure he's right about this because of everything he's been through.
>You’ve spoken a little bit about snarky fan feedback online. Have they snarked on this all sounding a bit like Minority Report? How do you make this event stand out from other series for them?
Well, to be fair, I get more snarky mail about why I haven't hooked up Steve and Tony romantically than I do about anything in the actual books. I'm not even slightly joking. It's called "Stony," these guys that really want Tony and Steve to get together, and the fact that I haven't gotten them together has pretty much derailed my life and my Tumblr. #Stony. I did [tell] them that I'm much more interested in Thucky. I didn't say who that "Th" was of the Thucky. Was it Thor? Was it Thanos? Was it Thing? [laughs]
>>83379935
But anyway, as much as I am a part of the community, and eagerly available to the audience, you can't worry too much about what everybody wants out of a story like this. As I learned very early, you can't make everybody happy. But number one, when you point out "Oh, you're doing this because of the movie," I'll say, "Oh, you mean because of the books that we made?" And number two, the Minority Report aspect of it is something that the story will reveal itself not to be. By issue three you'll be like "Oh, this isn't like Minority Report at all!" But when you see future, or future-crime, or profiling, I get [it.] I'm actually a huge fan of the movie, so I won't lie that I've thought about it. But it's always that these characters, just by their existence, makes the story different. And people will see what that story is very very soon.
Events are tough. Some people go, "We don't want them!" But they always buy them. And literally since House of M, which I wrote many years ago, they’re like "I like when they sit quietly!" and I'm like "No you don't. You wouldn't buy a book where they sit quietly." Who wouldn't want a book where all your favorite heroes are doing something? Things that are exciting! We're promising you that shit is gonna happen. That's pretty cool.
>>83379343
Some of the panels when Carol was crying near the end looked copied and pasted
>>83379968
>What, for you, is the importance of engaging with the politics of the day, vs. telling more fantastical stories like Secret Wars?
Well, it's not politics of the day so much as just what's in the air. What's going on in politics, I could never write anything that crazy. And thank God I'm not writing any political satire. Every time I watch Saturday Night Live I'm like, "Oh you poor bastards." But every day, something's going on in the news about profiling or personal responsibility. And these characters have shown time and time again, since their creation, that they're kind of there to examine our world in a different light, in a more fantastical light. Yes, we're going to get a very cool superhero story where a lot of cool shit’s gonna happen, but the theme of the piece, the reason that the fight is happening, has to be [one where] the audience goes "That is true. That is just honest. That is a world I recognize."
>>83379865
>So there's a group of superhumans called the Inhumans, and they're kind of popping up all over the world. A new mini-race of superheroes.
Man that sounds like something else
Something familiar that I can't really put my finger on.
Normal looking people, who for no reason except their genes gain super powers?
What could I be thinking of?
Can't we check off event pushes a new relaunch since Marvel Now was announced?
Benis is fucking cancer. HE WRITES IRON MAN! How can Tony's reason for starting a fight with Carol be this bad?
>>83379343
Carol is right.
Tony is basically arguing that we should ignore a valuable source of intel because his friend happened to die in a mission done based on it (even though the mission was a success and saved lives).
What would Tony have done if the mission had gone exactly the same, only the intel that Thanos was there came from the GotG?
Bendis should have done something actually pre-emptive or Minority Report-like as the catalyst. There's no difference between the circumstances of the Celestial Destroyer and Thanos other than Rhodey dying.
>>83379343
okay just read the book
Marquez really stepped up his game for this, easily his best work yet
the Idea She-Hulk could be paralyzed outright die on a hospital table is one of the stupidest things I've ever read, one change could have given that scene the proper oomph and that would be drawing Shulkie in her human form
>>83380152
Yes.
Pre-cog sees Rhodey getting the infinity gauntlet, and re-writing history
Carol arrests Rhodey, who during the process of being arrested accidentally kills ______ (my vote goes to Jessica Drew)
ACTUAL DRAMA HOLY FUCK
>>83380152
the Avengers Avenge, they're not proactive they're reactionary.
>>83380232
They're reacting to Thanos showing up. Thanos has killed countless billions, so stopping him isn't exactly being proactive, it's doing something that must be done.
If the cops get intel that a wanted terrorist will be in a certain place at a certain time, they'd go to arrest him and they'd have every right to.
>>83380294
Maybe Thanos just came to Earth cause he wanted ice cream? And then he got jumped by everyone and he had to defend himself? Did the dirty inhumie see that
>>83380321
maybe he was on vacation, y'know doing some hunting in the woods, he had a gun after all.
>>83380389
#TitanLivesMatter
>>83380223
>Carol arrests Rhodey, who during the process of being arrested accidentally kills ______ (my vote goes to Jessica Drew)
Carol's waifu getting killed? she'd murder him on the spot.
>>83380405
HE WUZ A GUD BOY
>>83380405
Wouldnt it be #PurpleLivesMatter
>>83380321
>Did the dirty inhumie see that
Dirty inhumie saw that Thanos was here looking for a cosmic cube
only cosmic cube on earth right now is also an eight year old girl.
THE INHUMAN IS UNCONSCIOUSLY MAKING THE EVENTS HAPPEN. SCREENCAP THIS!
>>83380558
>Thanos browses /tv/
>>83380558
A cosmic SCOOP goddamit, poor Thanos.
>>83379804
>Marvel doesn't do a lot of sequels ever
Thjis statement might have carried a bit more weight had Marvel's last event not been SECRET WARS.
Can someone tell me what the hell the Guardians of the Galaxy were doing while Thanos invaded? Isn't their job to protect the Galaxy from people like him. They were created as a true proactive team. But they can never prevent anything from happening
>Baddoon invasion: botched
>Thanos invasion on Infinity: botched
>Jean Grey kidnapping: botched
>Black Vortex and Hala's destruction: botched
>Spartax destruction: botched
>Thanos invasion part II: botched
They are the most useless team in all existence
>>83380664
Dance contest at Knowhere, they were too busy
>killing off Rhodey
>right after the Captain Hydra outrage
Bravo, Marvel
>>83379935
>>You’ve spoken a little bit about snarky fan feedback online. Have they snarked on this all sounding a bit like Minority Report? How do you make this event stand out from other series for them?
>Proceeds to completely ignore the Minority Report issue.
if cw2 storytime'd recently was the first issue, what was that issue with thanos with a gun invading erf where shehulk almost died and rhodes got rekt?
>>83380578
I have it on good authority thatScott Summersis to blame for all this.
>>83379832
>I have seen stories die because someone just asked a simple question that pops a hole right in it.
So how did this one get through?
>>83380702
civil war 2 0, it was a prequel to the event meant to show what happened in the thanos fight, and done for the FCBD thing.
>>83380702
That was the free comic book day issue.
>>83380749
thanks
>>83380749
Civil War 2 #0 was a separate book actually.
>>83380738
What question rips a hole on this one?
>>83380788
oh yeah, fcbd was thanos, civil 0 was homer getting hit with the terrigen.
>>83380788
Why is everyone taking stupid pills for the plot to work?
I don't get Tony's side. Does he want to kill the future seer? Does he plan to just do the opposite of what he says?
>>83380788
Why is THIS precog suddenly so important in a world with other precogs, time machines and Mad Thinker's super math?
>>83380788
What if the information about Thanos came from a non-precog, just some rando who knew where Thanos would be and Rhodey died anyway because it's Thanos?
What if Rhodey had lived?
What if the info came from an already established Pre-cog, Destiny or anyone:
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Precogs
>>83380884
First he plans to steal him from attilan. He only said he would stop them from playing god anymore. That can mean anything between hiding him and killing him.
Hmmmm let a genocidal space maniac rampage for a bit without knowing he was there until he destroyed and or killed enough people or mess with the future and risk altering the timestream? I'd say the first choice since the Time tends to bust your nuts in the worst possible way if you change it? But I'm just gonna be like Doctor Strange and fuck off from this shit event.
>>83381037
But that is not what Tony was saying.
He said it was okay this time.
But not installing him as a permanent warning system.
>>83381080
And why not? If you had a machine that can predict earthquakes, why not use it?
>>83381144
Because they don't know the fucking source of it.
They don't really understand it.
What if using him is causing those events?
Its prediction the future. In all facets.
should they go full minority report put him in a tank and arrest people for future crimes?
>>83381198
These are all interesting questions.
None of them will be answered during this event.
This is going to be worse than the first Civil War.
>>83381198
>What if using him is causing those events?
That doesn't really make much sense. The Celestial Destoyer and Thanos would have shown up even without Ulysses.
And you don't have to go full Minority Report. If you see a dangerous threat, stop it. If you see that an innocent might do something bad, keep an eye on him and make sure the circumstances don't occur, no need to arrest him.
99% of threats in the MU come from pre-established villains with criminal records who are already on the run anyway.
>>83381198
Nobody's suggested doing that, so he's just flipping out over nothing at this point.
>>83381294
>"The Ultimates are SPECIFICALLY looking for ways to stop disasters before they happen"
Uh huh.
>>83379343
what is there to discuss?
jesus christ you are such a pathetic marveldrones.
you hate it, but you can't stop from talking about it.
you're like a junkies, and you seriously either need to have a life, or go to a rehab
>>83381293
>That doesn't really make much sense.
Makes about as much sense as precognition.
>>83375102
>I told you!
>I told you this would happen!
>I told you.
Um Tony, no you didn't. You predicted that Ulysses would be used for Minority Report and people would be arrested before they did anything, you didn't predict that Ulysses would be used to pinpoint that a cosmic menace would attack the Earth and someone would die in a mission to stop him.
>>83381373
word
Why is he always wrong about everything?
>>83381373
Would War Machine have died if they hadn't used Ulysses?
God I feel so sorry for your friends and family if someone could kill them and you wouldn't say shit to them.
This is genuinely worse than expected.
And I had low expectations.
>>83381355
>>83381437
>Would War Machine have died if they hadn't used Ulysses?
Maybe, because Thanos would have gotten the Cosmic Cube and destroyed the world, and even if he was stopped he still definetly would have killed a bunch of people.
>>83381437
If Thanos had gotten the Cosmic Cube and done whatever with it and then they went to stop him, he had just as much of a chance of dying if they had waited as if they had been proactive. He's a superhero. It's a dangerous fucking job.
>>83381037
Actually, Strange is joining this one, on Tony's side even.
>>83381373
I feel like editors should start editing the actual writing. Instead of just looking out for marriages or whatever they do right now. It feels like no one reads these scripts before they start on art.
>>83379343
>MCU reference
You know, I have this feeling that War Machine dying is a direct result of Bendis seeing that trailer for Captain America: Civil War where Rhodey is shot down. I would be willing to bet real money that he saw that trailer, thought that he was going to die in that scene in the movie (and let's be fair, the way the trailer was cut was meant to give that impression), and figured he'd do it in the comics too for the sake of 'relevance'.
>>83379687
And don't forget, Peter is siding with Carol because he has a score to settle with Tony.ASM storytime when?
>>83381474
>>83381481
So you know Rhodes would have died anyway?
and there was no way they could've beaten Thanos without the intel?
>>83381557
Thanos would have gotten the Cosmic Cube, so it would have been pretty hard.
>>83381437
Would American soldiers in the 40s had died if Roosevelt hadn't declared war on Germany and Japan?
>>83381516
No sane person actually ever thought they would kill off Rhodey AND show his death in a trailer
>>83381583
See that is why I hate arguing about ideas in the context of comic books.
This is fucking stupid.
Okay so if Ulysses is the only way to stop Thanos from getting the cube why isn't he always in posession of the cube?
Ulysses wasn't always around.
>>83381373
But why can't Ulysses see the heroes getting killed? Why doesn't he see the ultimate outcome? If Thanos is predetermined to be at that place at that time, then isn't Rhodey's death also predetermined?
That's the problem with precognition as a story tool. If you can see the future, fucking see the future.
>>83381643
>Bendis
>sane person
>>83381621
Roosevelt had a Precog?
>>83379343
Scarlet Witch was already shit on, they joked about her "No more mutants" with a "No more Hellstrom" shit
>>83381621
Doesn't have to do with anything being discussed.
>>83381643
I know. But we're talking about Bendis here, so don't change the topic.
>>83381702
Hiroshima would have been a better metaphor desu.
what
>>83381656
>But why can't Ulysses see the heroes getting killed? Why doesn't he see the ultimate outcome? If Thanos is predetermined to be at that place at that time, then isn't Rhodey's death also predetermined?
Nope, because Ulysses sees the "original" future, the way it could have gone if nobody intervenes. He can't predict what will happen if someone tries to change it.
>>83381726
Truman had a precog?
>>83381754
Bendis humor
>>83381754
Well Tony, I would argue that Hulk shouldn't be running around free in the first place and you should have arrested him a long time ago. Or shoot him into space again, only this time make sure he reaches the intended destination.
>>83381771
no the atom bomb here is ulysses in this metaphor.
>>83381780
>"""""""""'" """"""""""
>>83381807
what about that other option where you can let bruce go chill out somewhere and leave him alone?
>>83381856
That's why we send him to another planet.
>>83380664
haven't you heard the news? they are a romantic comedy act now.
>>83380152
>What would Tony have done if the mission had gone exactly the same, only the intel that Thanos was there came from the GotG?
DON'T LISTEN TO REDDIT: THE SUPERTEAM!
>>83381702
It does, Rhodey was a soldier who died in action, he knew what he was getting into.
>>83381873
How about a hand off option that doesn't have the chance to backfire like last time? Let bruce have an uninhabited island or something
>>83381754
You too can be a Marvel writer.
>>83381934
It only backfired because Hulk was on a planet with a bunch of angry barbarians and spaceships. Plus the fact that the shit blew up after it was sabotaged.
If you drop him off on a peaceful planet with no intelligent life forms, then recall the spaceship, all will be well.
An island wouldn't work, he could swim/leap away at any time.
>>83381818
And a shitty shit one.
Go learn some actual history and not the crap doled out in Texas Board of Education approved textbooks.
>>83380990
How exactly is stopping Thanos "playing God"?
>>83382027
Not mine.
I didn't make it.
>>83382039
It is changing the future that is the god part.
Not what exactly you change.
>>83382027
I did say better, not good.
>>83382131
What's the difference between intel provided by Ulysses and intel from any other source?
If you stop a terrorist based on intel from a reliable source, you're not playing God. The intel from the source could be wrong, just like Ulysses could be, but its best to act on the intel anyway.
>>83382039
You're supposed to just let Earth be destroyed.
That's what being a superhero is all about, letting the natural order occur.
>>83382205
Not that easy when it is precognition.
you can just treat like any normal intel.
ESPECIALLY if you don't fucking understand it.
>>83382223
That is a great strawmen.
Its like I am arguing directly with bendis.
>>83382224
So you're saying they shouldn't act on Ulysses' intel? They should just ignore him if he says a Celestial Destroyer or Thanos is coming?
>>83382224
Just wait until the thing is about to happen on its own. and intervene at the last second.
That way you know you're not causing it.
This isn't even smart writing, this is basic logic.
How do you think Bruce will respond to the death of his cousin?
>>83381494
.....Fucking Bendis.
>>83380152
>What would Tony have done if the mission had gone exactly the same, only the intel that Thanos was there came from the GotG?
read >>83380664
why would the GotG warn Tony instead of dealing with the issue themselves?
>>83382253
Do we need sarcasm tags here.
I mean it was shitty sarcasm, but clearly not agreeing with Bendis.
>>83382269
No they should've.
I am saying make the timeline your bitch.
BE fucking god.
If the original timeline I dunno suggest that earth needs to be destroyed for some beatiful super space republic then I guess you could argue the moral standpoint of it all.
But even then I would say fuck everything and put humanity over everything.
I just UNDERSTAND the other side. I don't agree with it.
>>83382315
OK then. What would Tony have done if the mission had gone exactly the same, only the intel that Thanos was there came from the Sh'iar who had just been attacked by Thanos and knew he was going to Earth?
>>83382299
There's not much lower you can go than going full vigilante
Not like his parents can help him out here
Aside from the bullshit Jen stuff I liked the issue desu. This time instead of being hyperlogical, Tony starts a civil war because of emotional wounds.
Also Carol was still fucking stupid.
>I have time to prepare yet I don't call EVERYONE
Luckily Thanks was nerfed. By all rights he should have stomped a mudhole into her entire team and killed everyone.
>>83382390
Been written better.
>everyone is acting irrationally about the kid even though it's the first time something went wrong
Why not have them build up a dependence on him then follow up with either him going missing and something bad happens or him interpreting something incorrectly and having a fallout from that?
>>83382390
just let Thanos get the cube and then lose it because he's too tricky for his own good. then the NYPD could arrest his as usual.
>>83382390
That is a completely different concept though.
I feel like you are concentrating on the wrong fucking problem.
The concept is precognition not Thanos bullshit.
God fucking dammit capeshit is too stupid for this concept that you could ever discuss it like Minority Report.
>>83379343
why isnt the "white straight male is bad, minority is good" colored?
tony(a straight WHITE FUCKING MALE) is the bad guy of this
carol(a bisexual futa female) is the one on the winning side and the one that did the correct thing
>>83381807
Looks like Tony actually learned from WWH unlike all you dumbass anons.
>>83382428
Marvel should just submit these scripts to /co/ before starting work.
Then they wouldn't even need to pay their worthless editors any more.
>>83382299
He'll Bendis speak how he needs to get away from it all and joins the GotG and he'll be the first page of the next book talking about how getting out in space is what he really needed.
>>83382477
Because she isn't a minority.
>>83382445
Was there even a cosmic cube?
Why not let him look around and not find shit.
>>83382477
Tony is supposed to be the good guy, even though all logic so far is on Carol's side.
>>83382390
The Shi'ar wouldn't warn Earth about it. They would let it die while they recover their strength, let the Earth heroes tire Thanos, and strike back once Earth is destroyed but Thanos is in a completely weakened state. Then kill him.
>>83382465
What we're saying is that Tony Stark has very valid concerns about precognition, but he's getting butthurt over a situation that raises no moral dilemmas whatsoever that has nothing to do with the Minority Report analogy.
They weren't going after someone that hadn't done anything yet, they were going after a mass-murdering cosmic menace, the precog merely told them where he would be.
>>83382540
You're missing the point. We're pointing out that if the intel that Thanos was gonna be there had come from anyone else, things would have gone exactly the same way, so blaming Ulysses for it is dumb.
>>83382543
I am fairly certain the "butthurt" is about his best friend dying.
I think you might have autism if his anger at that point seems non-emotional and about philosphical concept.
>>83382516
>Why not let him look around and not find shit.
I'm sure the scientists and personnel of Project PEGASUS and their friends and family would appreciate that.
Now, if Thanos had acted nice and said that he only wanted a look around and Carol had attacked him anyway unprovoked, there would be a tiny shade of gray, but the writing is too unsubtle for that.
>>83382516
Well, for starters he would murder everyone in Project Pegasus.
Second of all, Thanos is an active threat that's a danger to the universe. If you have a chance to neutralize him, you take it, just like you would to any wanted criminal.
>>83382543
Why are people analysing bad writing instead of just de-constructing it?
The answer to everyone's questions are: "because it's stupid."
>>83382581
>I am fairly certain the "butthurt" is about his best friend dying.
That's the problem, Tony's reasons in this War aren't rational, they're emotional. I symathize and understand him, but you can't be expected to agree with him, and he's supposed to be the leader of one of the sides.
Is he really having premonitions if he's seeing things that don't happen?
By telling everyone what he saw, he's making sure his visions don't come true.
>>83381539
The only score Peter has is with Joe Quesada.
>>83382589
>>83382612
With that amount of warning you can evacuate them.
>>83382581
Tony Stark is dumb and angry is not that compelling of a plot.
People wish that complex issues were being tackled so they project.
>>83382666
>Tony's reasons in this War aren't rational
What? They never fucking are in wars?
Carols aren't.
everyone is emotional.
The ones he voiced unemotionally with that stupid hulk joke are the actual point.
Well, there's still time to make the precog stuff actually relevant. Maybe he sees heroes fighting and them being stupid about trying to prevent that is what leads to it in the end?
>>83382723
>What? They never fucking are in wars?
Yes, there are plent of wars fought over dumb reasons. But I would rather not read about that and instead read a book where both sides have compelling reasons. I haven't seen that so far, even the original Civil War did a better job at this. Carol's reasons are perfectly rational, Tony's aren't.
If Tony had waited for Carol to go full Minority Report like he predicted with the Hulk joke, then start the conflict, he would be justified, but right now he really isn't.
>Not wanting a crime predictor
>Not wanting to save lives
>>83379343
Inhumans shilling
And pointless killing
X-Men get low billing
And people are chilling
With filler that's filling
Oh, Bendis, you're thrilling.
>>83382841
>Tony's aren't.
Yes they were.
He voiced perfectly reasonable arguments against precognition.
Now they added to that by giving him also an emotional reason AFTER that.
Now would you disagree with Carol if they reveal she had a personal reason for wanting to stop disasters.
The emotions are not the source of the argument.
They are on top of it.
They don't make it more but also not less reasonable.
>>83382906
wasn't the point of this series that the machine was too dangerous to exist and that other people could as easily use it to track their enemies or feed fake info to the machine
>>83382949
No, that's not even close.
>>83382996
but I remember that there were another machines and that they were used by villains
I'm on Team Blue Marvel, use Ulysses to stop dangerous threat and use the intel to detain super-villains, but not use him like they do in Minority Report to stop innocent people that haven't done anything.
>>83383062
Okay not precognition but what if you see someone commit a crime and then stop it?
Thanos and are shit are big world ending events and stupid examples because of it
And really should be seen coming without fucking Ulysses but that is Bendis for you.
Lets say you see someone stealing a handbag.
Stop it?
Its a crime right?
but you don't know the chain of events that would've caused.
So you changed the timeline. Likely to something worse.
the big problem of this event is everybody acts like Ulysses is the first person ever with precognitive powers.
>>83383120
You wait until the last moment.
Make sure the chain of event is going to happen without your intervention.
Then you act, punish the person for attempted _____.
>>83383146
>>83382906
>Have a machine the predicts crime
>There are still black people on the streets
Seems like a pretty shit crime prediction machine to me.
>>83383168
But that changed the timeline. and you don't know to what.
I am not saying you should or shouldn't do it.
But you have to be aware what you did.
>>83383027
That machine isn't predicting crimes, it's actively trying to stop people from doing anything. It's a totally separate machine.
>>83383120
Um anon, read the post you're responding to, I agree with you.
>>83383220
I read it.
There is still the implications to the timeline.
How big does an event have to be for you to change it then?
Who decides what is big enough and what isn't?
>>83383120
>So you changed the timeline. Likely to something worse.
How? You created a timeline with one less criminal on the streets.
>>83383194
But when have they ever known the whole timeline?
I mean unless we're talking some kind of paradox.
I'd say its fine if you know you aren't causing it, but that's fairly hard to check.
>>83383194
Who care about changing the timeline? The timeline in Marvel changes all the damn time. Do you know how many times characters have gone to the future? Every single future they've been to contradicts the last one.
So it was actually Tony's fault that Rhodey died, wasn't it? He was working with an outdated, rusty armour.
Tony is a cunt.
And he dares to blame others. Fucking Cunt.
>>83383252
Basically any event the Avengers already would interfere with.
It's not like they mess with street crime anyway (regularly).
>>83383286
Okay well in a realistic setting. If you say "but in marvel" then nothing has to make sense and you better delete the entirety of /co/ because all discussion of fiction is stupid then. We are discussing the concept.
>>83383252
Oh I see.
My arguments aren't about the "timeline" because that's a vague concept and one that nobody in this book seems worried about, they're based on civil rights. If using the intel would impede on an innocent person's civil rights, you shouldn't pre-emptively arrest him. You should however keep an eye on him, and try and make sure either the circumstances don't occur or you catch him in the act.
>>83383350
Concept's still stupid.
Why is the "timeline" something sacred.
Unless there are paradoxes, it doesn't matter.
>>83383356
Tony is definitely worried about the timeline.
Isn't that what the stupid futurist shit was about?
>>83383350
Well then, if in this comic the timeline is brought up as a point of concern, then I'll agree with you. If it isn't, and the conflict is based purely on moral issues (which seems to be the case based on interviews), then I'll think you're focusing too much on something that isn't an issue in the book.
>>83382935
Actually, I think he's wrong too. Knowing someone's going to do something wrong doesn't necessarily implies that you must stop them at any cost and arrest or get them down to the end. You can always reason with them, even try to stop then when they're actually doing something wrong, not before. And you can always choose to not do anything. It's not like you must use that info to do always the same thing, in every given situation.
>>83383392
>Why is the "timeline" something sacred.
Why wouldn't it be?
If you don't know any outcome isn't it incredibly arrogant to change it without knowing if there is some cosmic plan?
>>83383146
This is the first time it's been this reliable and usable by the good guys, and without that annoying causing-the-very-thing-you're-trying-to-prevent drawback.
>>83383478
But that is a completely different point. Now you admit you are on the side but before you pretended because it was solely because Tony's argument was emotional.
That is a good point though. And I agree.
But you were dishonest before.
>>83383551
>cosmic plan
Have you seen the Gods and cosmic entites in the MU? If we followed the cosmic plan Earth, nay the entire universe would have been destroyed long ago.
>>83383551
If there is a cosmic plan, then any attempt to change the future is destined to fail.
>>83383413
Futurism is about reality though.
The timeline is just the potential future.
You change the timeline you change the future.
Unless Tony has seen a glorious Utopia because he now has precog powers, he shouldn't care.
>>83383571
I'm the person who raised the issue about Tony's motivation being mostly emotional and not very rational, you're responding to someone else.
>>83383551
What if the cosmic plan involves letting heroes know about upcoming disasters so they can stop them?
>>83383551
I sure as hell would be arrogant if said plan implies to kill billions of people/harmless things. Because that plan suck hard and must be from some arrogant entitles jerk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mH-L6UCCAE
This feels relevant to this thread.
>>83383551
If there's a cosmic plan by a worthy being it would take human action into account.
If a simple meat bag messing about ruins the plan, then the cosmic being ain't all that.
>>83383571
I'm not that anon from before. I just came across your argument and wanted to point it out, guys. Sorry because the misunderstanding.
>>83382315
Way to avoid the point of the question entirely.
>>83383668
Not really, the Prime Directive is about not interfering in places one could argue we have no business with. We're talking about things that so far only affect the Earth.
>>83383662
It's modern morality.
If you choose to ignore a problem you're good.
If you take action now you're responsible.
People fear responsibility.
Okay, this thread is proof that marvel can still make good comics
Look everyone ITT is discussing whose side they're on and why. Isn't this exactly what comics were made for? We should still be supporting them if they give continue to give us great content like this.
Interview with Tom Brevoort
>http://www.newsarama.com/29536-civil-war-ii-1-not-a-simple-smash-em-up-spoilers.html
>>83383810
No no no no no.
If anything the comic is in the way of the argument.
Every time someone from either side brings up a decent point the comic gets in the way with some stupid marvel answer.
Bendis does not get credit for a concept as old as philosphy.
>>83383810
No, because people are just ignoring the bad writing and talking about minority report.
The comic itself won't tackle these issues.
You aren't good just because your fanbase is smart.
>>83383751
Well, in that case, my mother was always right I must have born in the wrong age. That logic is retarded and actually irresponsible to the society, because it implies that no one is ever going to take action ever, and implies that being responsible and being guilt of all the consequences is the same.
Should've born 50 years ago or something.
>>83383878
I can't tell if you are joking or not.
Are you telling me you were "born in the wrong generation"?
>>8338387
I hope no one consciously believes that.
No I was just straw-manning Western morality, but I don't believe it myself, it's just a trend I see alot.
It's my explanation for why some people are opposed to utilitarianism.
>>83383949
I was just complaining, kinda joking. No, I know I was born in the right time, for me, at least. But those morals are pretty fucked up logic wise, to be quite honest.
>>83383835
>Brevoort: In terms of Rhodey, we were not unaware that killing Rhodey meant we’d have a story where an African American character dies, which is something that happens prevalently in our medium. That’s a conversation that we had. In our particular retreat where we talked about this, Ta’Nehisi Coates was in the retreat for the first time. He heard all of this, and afterwards, he sent a long missive to myself and Axel, which we forwarded to Brian and we all spoke about, in terms of what he thought the reaction would be and what the ramifications would be, that we had to consider that from all sides. And we have.
>But the thing that makes Rhodey the only choice to be that character is that Rhodey is the one player who has a specific relationship with Tony, and a specific relationship with Carol. He stands firmly in favor of “predictive justice”, and chooses to act on Ulysses’ visions. Even though it costs him his life, it’s a choice he would make again, given the opportunity. His death serves to galvanize them in both of their trajectories in the way the death of any other character just wouldn’t. It was not necessarily a popular choice, knowing we’d get that response – and justifiably so. It seems like it’s always the black hero who dies in these kind of stories. But at least in this instance I feel like we stand on decent ground saying if there had to be a death, it should be Rhodey because of his relationship with the characters, not because of the color of his skin or his lack of prominence in the Marvel Universe.
I have to say, I agree with the points he's making, if anyone had to die in order to drive the story forward.
Even though I still feel that Rhodey's death can't be blamed on Ulysses so Tony's reaction is overblown. The circumstances should have been changed to something morally ambigous, not "died fighting evil mass-murdering alien that we stopped because someone told us where he'd be".
>>83383878
Also admitting to your moral stance coming out of fear, isn't usually something people who are arguing for a point do.
>>83382477
Carol isn't officially bisexual
>>83382477
Tony has minorities on his side too, you know
>>83383146
Didn't the X-Men have that blind girl who told the future for quite a while? Pretty sure she even predicted Hope's appearance.
Also the whole first half of Peter David's X-Factor had Layla.
>>83384008
>It's okay that we killed Rhodey — we asked our black friend if we could!
You know what would make this more ambiguous? If it actually involved time travel instead of just visions of the near future.
>>83379343
I think MCU reference should be marked. Rhodey conveniently is the one sacrificed in both stories and Brevoort even references a line of the movie when speaking about how he acted
>Tom: He stands firmly in favor of “predictive justice”, and chooses to act on Ulysses’ visions. Even though it costs him his life, it’s a choice he would make again, given the opportunity.
>>83384193
>You know what would make this more ambiguous?
Good writing.
>>83383863
>>83383877
Shouldn't the creator be giving props for even brining up this idea? It's an interesting point that is managed to be weaved through the marvel universe
But, sigh, I guess people don't want to support that industry anymore...
>>83384278
>Shouldn't the creator be giving props for even brining up this idea?
No. Especially not if it is handled that badly.
>But, sigh,
Jesus fucking christ kys.
>>83384278
I will support the tie-ins, which I'm sure will bring up this debate in a far more nuanced way that Bendis can.
>>83384278
The execution is terrible. Tony is all YOU DID SOMETHING I HAD RESERVATIONS ABOUT AND NOW MY FRIEND IS DEEEEAAAADDD!!! even though he has zero logical objections.
>>83384008
It's fucking retarded that content creators feel necessary to justify a minority or a woman dying in their already retarded story.
Sexual orientation or gender doesn't deflect bullets or shrapnel in real life, it doesn't protect you from car crashes and lightning strikes. It's silly that a fictional character gets 9000x plot armor they'd normally have just from being black or gay or some shit.
>>83384278
>Should we kill criminals?
Wow look at how great of a writer I am.
Where is all my kudos, please congratulate me.
My critique comes from it not being weaved well enough.
I want the industry to get better, congratulating something I feel is sub-par is not the way to do that imho.
>>83384008
Man, I feel bad for Coates. He had no idea the fucking shitfest he was getting himself involved in, did he?
>>83383146
99% of the time they have drawbacks, or see random shit. So far he has been exclusively seeing apocalypses so that is why he makes sense to be used,until it comes out that his presence causes them.
>>83384278
I'm not going to give a creator props for bringing up ideas that were handled far better in a movie over a decade ago
>>83380664
What they do best, memeing off and making references about the movie.
Also, Bobby you're gay.
>>83384325
yeah I'm really looking forward to each writer treating this as Fascist Carol and Mansplaining Tony, depending on which side they prefer.
>>83379804
>It actually had nothing to do with the movie!
Yeah fucking right.
>>83380036
Can't talk about them, the guy who runs Marvel is pissy over Fox having control of the film rights and a small percentage of merchandise money.
>>83384413
No you have to love everything just for existing
>But, sigh, I guess people don't want to support that industry anymore...
>>83379343
Here's what we know will happen in the main book and tie-ins based on solicits and whatnot
>Tony attacks Attilan and tries to kidnap Ulysses
>He fails miserably, Inhumans declare war on Stark Industries
>At some point, Ulysses will predict that a hero will cause a bunch of deaths, and another character will kill said hero to avoid it. Said character is then put on trial. She-Hulk is probably either the victim or the killer.
>Thanks to Ulysses, the heroes crack down on superhuman crime really hard, making it almost impossible for them to do much. Kingpin somehow finds a way to profit from the situation and avoid getting caught.
>Magneto also tries to attack the Inhumans just like Rightclops did. The X-Men also seem uncomfortable with the Inhumans having so much power.
>Kamala turns on Carol, probably has something to do with Ulysses predicting Bruno will do something
>Hercules gathers a bunch of ancient heroes on a quest
>The Maker and his Revengers take on the New Avengers (not sure how this connects to CWII)
>The actual war doesn't seem to start until issue 5, until then it's just escalation from both sides.
>In issue 5 "the true nature" of Ulysses' powers are revealed or something
>>83384584
This sounds like it could ok at best, even with good execution.
Considering the current writing, this is going to be pathetic.
>>83383810
>Look everyone ITT is discussing whose side they're on and why.
People "debated" AvX and that was still as shitshow comic.
>Obligatory Sikh doctor for le diversity cred
Gamergate was supposed to prevent this
>>83384584
>>In issue 5 "the true nature" of Ulysses' powers are revealed or something
It's going to be something like actually his power is controlling timelines or probablity or something crazy godlike like that, and he's actually unconciously causing everything he's "predicting", isn't it?
I... kinda liked it?
>>83385041
Your taste is bad and you should feel bad.
>>83384584
>At some point, Ulysses will predict that a hero will cause a bunch of deaths, and another character will kill said hero to avoid it. Said character is then put on trial. She-Hulk is probably either the victim or the killer.
I doubt it's She-Hulk, seeing the current scenario. On the other hand, we have some preview/sneakpeek/whatever of Hawkeye pointing his arrows to someone, and in the letters from AN Hawkeye, they said he will have something to do in this event. And we know how much Bendis love to put him OOC. Yes, once again, I'm fearful of Clint character assassination. I hope it's not, because he's in New Avengers, and I honestly like how that writer is dealing with him.
>>83384903
But if they do that then Carol's position suddenly becomes indefensible 2 issues before the event ends.
>>83381494
Then how is it even a contest. I mean they were balanced before because Team Iron Man had Thor and Chulk and Team Carol had Blue Marvel and Monica, but Stephen should be far above either of them.
>>83385562
Magic's dying, Cloud.
>>83384129
Yes and yes. And funny enough, Layla Miller was originally created by Bendis in House of M, so...
>>83383810
I wouldn't call this good, in fact I would say that the best part of these discussion threads is calling out how bad some things are. But I agree that it is pretty investing and it's interesting to debate with other anons while backing our opinions with continuity elements. I say marvel should keep this stuff coming.
>>83385594
They just banished a celestial. It's obvious Bendis isn't keeping up with what Aaron is writting. I don't think anyone is.
>>83379343
At the end it will be revealed that the entire event was just a vision from Ulysses and we cut back to the beginning when he was found by the Inhumans but this time Ulysses will think that his power is too dangerous and kill himself. Everyone will be confused and all the events he prevented thanks to his power will never happens somehow.
>>83384584
>The revengers
I guess they are showing up in Ewing's New Avengers. Haven't kept up with that one. Who integrates the team?
>>83381754
B E N D I S
E E
N N
D D
I I
S S
>>83385953
>http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/New_Revengers_(Earth-616)
the most shocking twist of all!
>>83386239
You know, with the eyepatch one could make a punished Carol edit
>>83379343
>beast blames cyclops
>no Xmen
>next to each other
>B is impossible
>>83385176
Could it have something to do with Hydra Cap? Or worst case scenario, Songbird for the sake of character assassination and shock value.
But then again, solicits have been hinting at the cuplrit being someone from the A-Force title if I remember correctly.
>>83386728
The argument used when it was first made was that if Beast shows up with the Inhumans, he doesn't count as an X-Man.
I agree it was dumb, but we've stuck to this bingo so far and unless someone makes a new one I believe we should see it through to the end.
>>83379687
Well, if we're posting edits.
>>83386743
Maybe they'll kill off Cap after character assassinating him.
Then we can go back to just having one [s]Captain America[/s] Falcon.
>>83386875
>[s] [/s]
>new
>>83385900
>At the end it will be revealed that the entire event was just a vision from Ulysses and we cut back to the beginning when he was found by the Inhumans but this time Ulysses will think that his power is too dangerous and kill himself. Everyone will be confused and all the events he prevented thanks to his power will never happens somehow.
Surely Bendis wouldn't discard the events of several months with a cheap time travel cop-out at the end.
>>83384584
>He fails miserably, Inhumans declare war on Stark Industries
It was Tonya that declared war. in response Medusa goes full villain.
>>83387120
