damn...
It is fucking incredible how there are always new layers to find in this movie. I didn't like it at first personally but after a couple rewatches and analyses the film just gets better and better. It is such a rich and dense film, packed with tons of depth. We will still be uncovering hidden meanings and themes years after release. As much as I love the MCU, no film in the MCU comes even close to this. This film is honestly a masterpiece and although it is maligned now its reputation will grow in the future like many other masterpieces.
>>83319142
i missed that in the movie. I havent rewatched it. Doing the same i did with watchmen, i will wait for the extended cut to form my complete opinion. I do believe Snyder needs someone to control him. I love long movies and hate 90 minute crap, but in the real world a blockbuster needs to be contained and i know the guy would be happier making 5 hour long movies.
My biggest complain is the aquaman escene, that stuff wasnt necessary.
Did MoS' reputation grow?
Well I guess when compared to BvS it did
>>83319142
>"this conversation set-up the following action scene" is considered deep
I don't think I've seen a case of fanboy Stockholm Syndrome this bad since...oh...Man of Steel. What a coincidence.
I dont see why Superman felt like he had to stop Abomination's fist from obliterating Lex. that dude almost got your earth mom killed.
>>83319730
No matter who you are, or what you've done, he'll save you.
That's what being superman is
>>83319820
Except for Zod
>>83319557
They will dig and dig at something till it seems deep to them, not realizing it's just an empty hole.
>>83319730
Because he's Superman.
So?
>>83319820
Too bad Snyder's Superman is barely Superman.
It's so dense, every single frame has so many things going on
>>83319929
Stick to quipshit
>>83319557
But everyone likes it when edgar wright does it.
>>83319960
Yeah, it truly is the perfect realisation of capekino.
what did lex even want to do with doomsday? just let it wreck shit and maybe fight superman? he really didn't seem to have a plan there.
>>83319142
> It is such a rich and dense film, packed with tons of depth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvc9_GDoWI4
>>83319142
Bad pasing, confusing sequence of scenes and aweful timing, those were the main problems with the movie, all of them could be fixed in the editing room, and maybe the director's cut would give us a totally different movie, but the one we got is lacking, even with all that depth.
>>83319820
Tell that to Zod's snapped neck.
So did Lex like spend the entire morning before the Senate hearing filling that mason jar with piss? Was he just chugging water in the parking lot then waiting until he had to tinkle?
>>83320113
maybe it actually was peach tea?
>>83320043
well, whatever he thought, it worked. Superman died and so did doomsday.
>>83319142
>the film is honestly a masterpiece
I wouldn't go THAT far, but yeah I really enjoyed it and love the Hypercrisis-style interpretation shenanigans we unearthed with it.
Movie's got a lot of problems, but amidst the genuine criticisms, there was also a lot of complaints leveled its way that were undeserved.
So Doomsday is his daddy? I thought it was his son.
>>83320043
Lex Luthor has a long history of wreaking petty bullshit just to try and kill Superman.
>>83319142
This movie is utter garbage that's nothing but pandering images and references that general audience members do not understand. Just because it makes references to things that you love doesn't make it a good movie.
>>83319820
Tell that to zods neck
>>83319142
>We will still be uncovering hidden meanings and themes years after release. As much as I love the MCU, no film in the MCU comes even close to this.
Okay, it's one thing to love Man of Steel/Batman v Superman, but why is it that EVERY SINGLE TIME one of you defenders of those movies come out, you always have to trash talk the MCU in the process? Just judge it on its own merits for Christ's sake.
>>83320417
Because, bizarrely, the popular opinion is that the MCU is actually good.
>>83320043
Lex doesnt care as long as Superman dies. He then could start using HIS anti-k weapons and be both the guy that killed superman and the guy that saved the planet, he was already experimenting on metas
>whoopsie doodles lol
>>83320278
The son becomes the father, and the father becomes the son.
>>83319841
>>83320106
>>83320390
He had to kill zod.
Think of it like pic related.
>>83320016
It worked in Shaun of the Dead as an entertaining easter egg (and hot fuzz), but in World's End it just seemed like an obligation that everybody got the first time through.
Yes, Doonsday was the manifestation of all the evil Lex saw in creation that he was holding Superman accountable for. Superman's self sacrifice in his battle against Doomsday was the act of him taking this evil upon himself for the sake of humanity
>>83320043
This is the guy that tried to frame superman for murder by having a bunch of guys shot up with proprietary bullets that can be traced back to him easily. He's not that bright.
>>83320503
It's slave mentality to levy guilt and shame upon others in the way that you do
>>83320744
well, everybody except brilliant journalist Lois Lane fell for it
>>83320637
He's Superman, he could lift the train
>>83320381
what you just said contradicts itself.
>>83320417
why not, its a series with a similar set up leaving it free for comparison.
>>83320637
>No matter who you are, or what you've done, he'll save you.
>No matter
I think that's a matter
>>83320815
missing the point mate
>>83320861
I believe you, and pretty much every person who has worked on Superman since, oh, let's say Roger Stern left the title, are missing the point of the character. Superman exist beyond those kind of quandries, those moral missteps and paradoxes that holds us back from being the best version of ourselves. So whenever someone writes a scene where Superman is forced to make a tough choice that will lead to failure, when someone dies on his watch or he's put into a no win situation, or when he dies, they forget that what made him enduring, what made him last for so many decades even in the most cynical times, was because he has the ability to save everyone.
No man can shoulder the responsibility to pick which train to save lives. But Kal-El is no man, he is Super Man
>>83319142
I am tired of people shitting on Jesse's Lex Luthor and Henry's Superman. They are slowly growing into their comic counterparts. And Bryan Cranston can still be cast as Lex Luthor sr. He is a unseen character who exists in the DCEU and even if it's flashbacks i'd still appreciate it.
>>83321082
I really like jesse's Lex, but he needs to talk slower. Lex has always been a changing character. Henry is a perfect superman, most people is just mad that they are focusing on superman failing and being affected by bad stuff instead of just the light side of the character, what we are seeing is the same stuff that pushed superman away from earth in stuff like kingdom come, and yet he still overcome that, is a superman that suffers a lot and feels terrible that he cant do more, that while is being hated by a lot of people he still refuses to quit or slow down.
I do want more happy moments, but seen the eight of the world on superman shoulders is a nice thing
>>83320637
In the original script they were going to send the Kryptonians into the phantom zone... which Nolan liked. It was Zach who engineered the neck snap sequence.
>>83321030
thats honestly very well put. I do really like the DCEU Supes, and this is really one of the only arguments ive seen with actual thought and knowledge on what they're actually saying.
So i disagree but gg mate.
>>83321476
>It was Zach who engineered the neck snap sequence.
It was Goyer. Snyder only backed Goyer up.
>>83321030
>because he has the ability to save everyone.
But he doesnt. He hasnt had that hability for the last 40 years
>>83320744
Superman wasn't blamed for the murders but the resulting state ordered massacre following his intervention.
Snyder is fine, they just gave him the wrong hero to work on.
He could make a great Question movie
>>83320016
Because it's an extra later-realization chuckle in a comedy.
BvS was not supposed to be a comedy.
>>83321476
Clark killing Zod is a pretty good thing, it's the best reason he could have to not kill anyone again.
>>83321565
He is a troll.
>>83321563
Because there's been an effort to downplay his abilities in order to match the tone of his superhero contemporaries stories, yes I know. It's why crying or dead Superman is the lasting image of him for the past few decades
>>83321664
>you need to kill someone before you realize killing is bad
>>83319350
I wish there were an extended cut of "Man of Steel". That would be great.
But yeah, I almost feel as if Snyder knew he was working within a universe and decided not to make MoS a one-and-done kind of story, but rather Part One in an overall narrative. Which is to say, he didn't make MoS the DCEU's "Iron Man".
>>83321664
>You have to kill someone to know killing is bad
>>83321726
>implying Death isn't the greatest teacher for the fragility of life
>>83321726
>>83321798
He knows is bad, he doesnt want to kill, he begs zod to stop countless times. And then Zod commits suicide by cop.
>>83321826
He couldn't have learned that by accidentally stepping on a snail?
Pretentious garbage. It's like something a childish film student would make.
>>83321926
Superman has killed aliens, a version of zod, and darkseid in the comics, why is so bad that rookie superman gets forced by zod to do something like that?
new52 superman killed in the last issue.
>>83322011
>this guy again
c'mon man give up already
>>83321798
Reminder that superman killed in the donner movies.
>>83319820
Except for the room full of people that was vaporized.
>>83322032
And imperiex and brainiac, and dr light (but he doesnt really count).
>>83319841
Superman's never shied away from making the life or death call.
When he faces a threat that he can't stop, he will kill it.
The reason he doesn't kill Luthor is because he can beat him up and put him in Jail.
There is no way he could safely stop Zod
>>83319820
>That's what being superman is
No. That's not at all what superman is. He will try his hardest and protect life.
>literally copying Marvel's abomination
>>83320637
I sat behind Dan Jurgens at the premiere of the Teen Titans movie at Wondercon, and the whole time he talked about how much he got paid for this movie. At one point he mimicked a cash register's "cha-ching"
>>83321476
They could have used it to motivate superman to be a better hero since his parents obviously didn't raise him in that mind set, but it seemed to me superman wasn't really affected by killing zod outside of the scene itself.
MoS2 could've been great. Have Clark actually show remorse for what he did, killing zod and all the destruction, not just mopey because the world is upset with what he did. A new vigilante group arises inspired by superman, but their dangerous and lethal methods show Superman the kind of hero he does not want to be. He beats them and gives a speech, essentially becoming this superman >>83319820. Call it Superman: Truth and Justice or something.
They could've even put batman in The Eilte's spot if you still want him in the movie, the key is to have superman react to his own actions, not reacting to how the world responds to his actions
>>83319142
Tell that to Zod's snapped neck.
>>83322231
you mean the teen titans animated tokyo movie? or was there another i hadnt heard of
A beautiful artistic reference....turned into a meme by people too unintelligent to get it
Sums up the movie
>>83320861
Not really, "There's always a way" is Supes "Power and responsibility".
>>83322978
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_League_vs._Teen_Titans
People still defending this piece of shit?
http://screenrant.com/batman-v-superman-jesse-eisenberg-lex-luthor-zack-snyder/
and he makes no bones about having never been (and not being now) a fan of the original comics:
“[Snyder] met me for, yes, something else. And I wasn’t really interested in it. But his enthusiasm about the movie and his description of the movie sounded really interesting. … When they sent me the script they asked me to play the part I play in the movie and it was such a wonderfully drawn character.”
“I’m so unfamiliar with anything surrounding it because I didn’t grow up reading the comics or watching these movies. I read a little bit out of interest, but it was meaningless.”
>>83319730
and this is why people dont like superman, they can't comprehend how he can be good. this is why BvS under-performed, bc people are too cynical.
Snyder Superman movies are going to become cult classics over the next few decades. Just you wait.
>>83323261
oh shit yea i totally forgot
>>83323096
Why do people feel the need to make images like this?
This is exactly the sort of faux-DEEPness people are talking about and the Snyder fanbase continues to indulge in it
>>83323511
>>83323345
BvS is already a cult classic
>>83323511
>This is exactly the sort of faux-DEEPness
How is using symbols to expand the information about a character and to explore his motivations "faux".
>>83323636
Cult classics are not things that are still in theaters
Every time someone mentions this movie and hypercrisis in the same context, Grant Morrison and Alan Moore team up to kill a waifu.
Please think of the universe groaning under the weight of two wizards teaming up.
>>83323309
>I read a little bit out of interest, but it was meaningless.
What did he mean by this?
>>83319142
he said this? really?
>>83323345
Yeah. It's pretty crazy how people will cling onto pure shit.
>>83322231
>the creator of Booster Gold wouldn't shut up about a huge payday
>>83323673
>I don't get it so it must be bad
>>83319142
I fucking loved it. And I'm not one of the people who say "it had some bad aspects but overall I liked it". No, I just like everything from it. Happy to see I'm not the only one.
>>83323309
honestly all this has done is made me respect Eisenberg.
>>83324324
Or
>I don't get it but it's not my thing so I won't bother
>>83319142
Whilst a lot of what you said. It also holds true that this was a terribly put together movie. Scenes didn't flow, Superman had a very weak motivation for fighting Batman and the editing left a lot to be desired.
I really hope the ultimate edition fixes many of these issues because I think there is perhaps the best CBM hidden in BvS (honestly).
For what it's worth I have not seen Iron Man (any) or Civil War
>>83324548
Agreed. He could've been like so many other actors and just lie how he's always been a comic book fan but he didn't and I appreciate that.
>>83322231
By this movie do you mean BvS or TTvJL?
>>83324930
She was Lo, plain Lo, in the morning, standing four feet ten in one sock. She was Lola in slacks.
Lois Lane.
>>83320503
"ugh... Can't these people just, like, stop screaming?"
>>83321626
Thats true even batman or constantine/swamp thing seem to fit his style but supes and jla are not right for him that being said i enjoyed both bvs and mos
>>83322176
What? You mean doomsday?
>>83323309
Literally only good reason he seemed out of charachter plus who cares if an actor likes comics by that logic you mist think nick cage movies are masterpieces
>>83324707
But batman hit supes with kryptonite and tried to kill him
Are you saying someone tryin to kill you is a bad reason to fight?
>>83322520
Superman in BvS was grippled with grief and regret. I don't know what movie you watched.
>>83320113
I wanna see this movie instead.
>>83327163
Not over killing Zod. More like because people weren't sucking his dick
>>83320113
If you have a bladder that's working as intended it shouldn't be that difficult to fill a mason jar with piss.
>>83326678
They clearly state in OP's picture "Abomination"
>>83321565
Why wasn't Superman able to stop the massacre anyways?
Cause it wasn't state ordered, it was staged by Lex
>>83328453
he didnt know it happened, this superman doesnt use his hearing that much
>>83319142
Well, if Lex was so smart then why didn't HE snap Superman's neck?
>>83328513
Or x ray vision, or good judgment......
>>83319142
Well, if Batman was so angry then why didn't HE snap Superman's neck?
>>83319142
Well, if Snyder was a hack then why didn't HE snap Superman's neck?
>>83319142
If I say that my mum is called Martha, then will Batman of Manslaughter not kill me?
>>83319142
If Superman is so great, then why doesn't anyone love him? Everyone except Lois and his mom shed a tear for him. Well, I guess that's what happens when you destroy the city you're meant to protect TWICE!
>>83319142
Why was Flash Mexican? Can the speedforce allow you to enter someone's dreams too? Why does everyone love to snap a neck?
reminder that "are you effin stupid?" was an actual, real line delivered in a snyder movie, a man who prides himself on how serious and deep his flicks are
>>83328848
Snyder wouldn't know deep and serious if it snapped his neck.
>>83320861
I think you're missing the point
Oh is thread actually sincere?
BvS is nowhere near as smart as it thinks it. It is however, way smarter than people think it is.
>>83320016
Edgar Wright does those as a JOKE. He's making COMEDY movies. Are you trying to imply scene in the OP is funny?
>>83320043
Lex Luthor doesn't really have any motivation or plan in this movie, really.
Fuck off Op. If the main plot line is crap then who cares how many hidden symbolisms it has? It's still crap.
>>83322116
Why couldn't he fly up with him? No toasty civilians and he could just beat him up in the air; he already broke his suit after all.
>>83323309
>I read a little bit out of interest, but it was meaningless.”
Well, he is right.
>>83323345
MoS is already a cult classic. All the shitty criticism are "not muh superman"
MOS
>He ll be a god to them...out there, amongst the stars, he will live
BvS
>And in the dark, amongst the stars, ding dong the god is dead
Frankly this is probably the highest level of POTTERY Ive ever seen.
>>83329886
V I S U A L M E D I U M
>>83328804
He didn't enter Batman's dreams.
Batman thinks he saw the Flash in a dream because it's Batman's first "revelation"; you can clearly see the paper fluttering in the background.
>>83330262
>Frankly this is probably the highest level of POTTERY Ive ever seen.
Then clearly you have shit taste in media.
>>83330633
Then how would he who the Flash is? How would he who what Lois Lane does and how she fits into it? It doesn't make sense.
>>83330302
The final fight with Doomsday looks like ass too so you can fuck off with that as well
>Guys hates/doesn't get Superman
>Let him make Superman movies
I want these movies to all fail so hard that WB won't even think about making another one ever again so that I can go back to being a manchild and enjoying my comic books without having to watch these embarrassing films. So far the only absolutely good character they've shit on is Supes (Wondy has so few rare gems of good titles despite having incredible potential, plus she was barely in BvS) but I don't want Snyder anywhere near Arthur Curry or Barry Allen.
>>83330718
But i bet you don't know WHY it looks bad ;)
>>83330823
>>Guys hates/doesn't get Superman
Nice meme
>>83330825
Because Snyder smeared shit over the lenses like the fucking monkey he is?
>>83330676
He doesn't know who the Flash is at that point. Nor does he know who Lois Lane is.
The Flash even realises that he came back too soon, and says that in the movie. But people like pretending nothing in this movie makes sense because of group think so they make shit up about it.
>>83330856
How could you watch BvS or MoS without seeing the obvious contempt for the character written into every piece of the script and plot?
If you like the character in comic form at all, these movies are shameful. I'd rather watch Superman 4 every day for the rest of my life than watch either of these ever again.
>>83330856
How does Snyder "get" Superman then? By making him a murderer?
>>83330857
Nice post.
Now try again. Use this image as reference.
>>83330909
>But people like pretending nothing in this movie makes sense because of group think so they make shit up about it.
Like you?
>>83330953
Well, it's brown. You're only proving my point.
>>83330963
What did I make up?
When Barry travels through time to the Batcave he asks: "Am I too soon?" Then says "I'm too soon" after Barry leaves Batman thinks he's awoken from a dream but there's sheets of paper fluttering behind Bruce evident of Barry having come to see Bruce NOT Barry showing up in Bruce's dream.
I haven't made up shit. If you didn't like Batman v Superman that's perfectly okay, but don't make shit up to further your argument on why in your opinion it's bad.
>>83330926
He kills Zod in Superman 2 too.
Superman is an alien that punches other aliens wearing a red cape. Thats it. The rest are interpretations. Even in comic books the interpretations change wildly between writers.
There is nothing to "get" because there is literally a Superman for each Superman writer. If you read comics you would knew.
Also, other than a few gems 99.99% of Supes books were shit.
>>83331163
I didn't make anything up, what're you talking about?
>>83331204
>Also, other than a few gems 99.99% of Supes books were shit.
They're still better than MoS.
>>83330926
How does Superman 2 end? How does new52 superman ended? How many times has Superman killed guys like brainiac or Imperiex
>>83330918
>How could you watch BvS or MoS without seeing the obvious contempt for the character written into every piece of the script and plot?
You mean exploring a side of the character that usually is over looked by the mass media?
MoS and BvS are like the Passion, exploring how fucked up was the death of that character doesnt mean Gibson wasnt a christian. Not every Jesus story has to be about water into wine or walking over the water, not every superman story needs to be about superman saving cats.
We don't need to see Superman lifting another airplane. But watching him deal with rejection, self doubt and frustration over not being abble to save everyone everyone is better than watching him lift a mountain of kryptonite. Superman overcomes everything and dies trying to help everyone, put everyone before himself. If you think that's not superman you don't like superman, you like a powerset and a smile.
>>83331304
>Superman overcomes everything and dies trying to help everyone
I think all the millions of people he indirectly killed will be too dead to notice his noble deed.
Note how OP felt the need to drag MCU movies into the argument. A movies first job is to be good on it's on, not to be good compared to another series of movies.
Overall, a movie is suppose to entertain and not perplex the mass audience. When it doesn't, that doesn't mean the movie sucks, it just means the movie failed it's first mission. MCU has that down pact. It understands the overall goal is to make people enjoy their experience, not try to make it seem like some piece of "art" that is far more complex than it is, when in actually it isn't as complex or deep as people want to make it seem.
>>83330993
Most of the Superheroic action that doesnt involve batman looks Oniric (just like bruce's first "dream"), and that's what the intention, it doesnt look "real", Snyder was aiming to make it look like something that was beyond reality: LEGENDS in the making. We were watching it as if someone was telling us what happened instead of watching it with out own eyes.
It failed, the frenetic action doesnt mix well with that kind of visuals, it works pretty well on the rocket or flood slow paced escenes, or with the bat- Übermensch elevation escene.
Snyder failed on a tech level, but your "hurr durr filter" bullshit is just plain wrong. The escene looked bad. And was a bad call from snyder. But there's a reason why it looked like that.
Also Failed art > tv show looks
>>83320637
He only had to kill him because of how it was written. It could have been written a million other ways that didn't result in his death.
>>83331379
>I think all the millions of people he indirectly killed will be too dead to notice his noble deed.
What This is the kind of irrational post i want to ignore. but fuck.
>Martha...
>>83331489
Why are you talking about BvS when you showed me an image from 300? What point are you trying to make you silly goose?
>>83331557
Use your analytical skills.
>>83320462
So you feel the need to instinctively take the contrarian opinion of calling something that's shit 'good'?
>>83326848
I can understand defending yourself. But that makes the conflict pretty one sided, if they wanted to go that route batman should have been full blown dark side.
It's Batman vs Superman and Supes had none of the development.
>>83330953
A tree made from corpses? A fucking tree, made out of corpses? Are we sure Snyder isn't 12?
>>83331601
That Snyder uses instagram filters to make a shit looking movie look even more shit? Riveting artwork, really.
>>83324324
>He didn't like it, so he must not GET it
>>83331535
Not mention he does it twice. Without apologising. Pretty rude if you ask me.
>>83319841
It was Pa Kent's fault for not letting Superman train as Superboy. He didn't have enough skill to beat Zod without killing him.
>>83331798
Or he just wasn't smart enough to come up with anything, like the director of the movie.
>Yu ain smort enuff ta get mah movie
>Lib in uh whirl wea captain merrican is considered gud movie
>MCU good moovies? I think not, to fun and not dark enuff eben doe deez comic book characters
>>83331304
You know what a cool way to have Pa Kent die is? He has a heart attack. Something Supes cannot fix. Instead it's this grand messianic "you are bound for great things, Clark" garbage as he dies in a completely preventable way.
Snyder's idea of Supes is literal Jesus. Apparently that's your idea of Supes too. No. What makes Supes interesting is that he is the antithesis of Batman. Clark Kent is the real person, the person he wants to be, just a normal average dude; however, he just happens to be a normal dude with the powers of a fucking god. He's not Jesus. Showing the struggle of a normal man who happens to be an alien with god powers, yet values humanity and wants to be human more than anything, is what is interesting about Superman. Superman is this identity thrust upon him by his birthright. He must be the protector of humanity because no one else can, but he doesn't relish it. He does it because he just wants to be a normal human guy.
This is not a Jesus figure on a holy quest to save humanity from it's sins, but a man who merely loves the goodness of the human race and deeply wishes to be a part of it, only accepting his inhumanity as part of his identity and the necessity of it for the preservation of the human race.
It's the tension between the person he wants to be (Clark Kent) and the person he has to be (Superman) that makes Supes interesting. Not fucking flying out of a spaceship in the shape of a crucifix. Jesus Christ, just bludgeon me to death with this high-school film class-level, hamfisted """symbolism"""".
MUH SYMBOLISM
MUH CAPE WEARING SPACE JESUS
>>83319963
Keep crying, DCuck
>>83319142
I agree OP, it's my favorite movie about Christianity since God's Not Dead.
>>83331954
Superman is supposed to be a humble civil servant, no matter what. He isn't a messianic savior
>>83332140
My point exactly, hence why I said Snyder and anyone who defends MoS/BvS doesn't "get" Superman.
>>83332140
If he was so humble, why didn't he apologise for the people he killed?
>>83331902
Honestly most of the MCU movies AREN'T good movies. They aren't bad movies, and are definitely "pleasing movies" but then again the Transformers movies are "pleasing movies" too; everyone keeps going to see them so they work in that way (though I'd argue Tranformers are bad).
But honestly I think only Captain America: The Winter Solider, Ant-Man, and Iron Man are any good. Everything else is meh-tier or bad-tier (Iron Man II and Avengers Age of Ultron being in the bad tier).
And regardless of whether you thought Man of Steel or Batman v Superman were good or not; the people who enjoy them find depth in the movies. This whole thread is people pointing out what they found through multiple viewings. Now you might have not liked it and not wanted to watch it again, but it says something that people keep making these threads.
I've never seen a single thread on /co/ speaking about Captain America The Winter Solider or Iron Man with as much analysis. Which doesn't make them better or worse than the Snyder DC films, but it does show why people like the two parts of Snyder's DC saga.
>>83331954
>yder's idea of Supes is literal Jesus.
No, is that superman is a SUN GOD (he is), and american audiences are familiar only with one particular Sun God = jesus. As for the rest of your post how is that different than snyder's take on the character? if anything it's the most human version of the character.
the whole point of the first movie is what if a child wants to become something other than what society wants him to be. And Pa Kent wants to give him a normal life for as long as he can, in BvS Martha tells him that he can step away from the burden of superman, that it's his choice, that he only has to do it if he WANTS that. And he does. At any point he can say "fuck it i quit", but he doesnt, you see the "jesus" symbolism, but that's not what they are, that's what people see in him regardless of who he is. He is the guy that wants to cook dinner for his gf. He isnt god, but people will see him as a god anyway, even if he doesnt want it. You were so triggered by sun god parallels that you missed the rest of the movies.
>>83331954
>. Clark Kent is the real person
>this "bruce is the mask" bullshit needs to stop
>>83332215
He was create in a time where society wasn't driven by imposing guilt and shame on each other and it wasn't a mark of distinction to be held up as a victim that deserved apologies
>>83331529
Please give examples.
>>83332281
If he damaged my city and killed thousands of my people, I'd at least like an apology from him. He seems like a meanie in that respect. He even did it twice and died because of it, good riddance to him.
>>83332140
>He isn't a messianic savior
Tell that to the Legion of Super-heroes
O to Superman Prime
Or to Superman in Kingdom Come
Or pretty much any future version of superman after lois dies.
>>83332280
Nigga, he falls out of the ship in the crucifix position and has a halo over his head while praying in a Catholic church. How delusional are you that Snyder meant for him to be literally Jesus?
Also, read a fucking good Supes comic for once and until you do go back to /tv/
>>83332280
The Bruce Wayne as he appears to the public IS a mask.
The Bruce Wayne he appears to Alfred and the Bat-senpai isn't a mask.
Otherwise I agree with you point exactly. And I think it shows this genius of Snyder is that he makes this movie talking about how Superman is a controversial figure and then after the movie everyone completely misinterprets Superman cause they're a bunch of Jesus-Freak Murrican who can't differentiate between mythology and Christianity.
>>83332210
So Morrison calling superman a god on Supergods doesnt get superman?
>>83319142
So, is Snyder a good director, or is he just a hack?
>>83319142
Every scene is so dense...
>>83332440
No, where did I say Superman isn't a God? Uh, nowhere. Learn to read retard. I said he's a god who wants to be human; who is human in nature but has these god powers. Jesus fuck, WB apologists are so desperate they've gotten to the point they just have to make shit up to defend their shit ""films"".
>>83332390
OH MY GOD! Why didn't he just ask Zod:
>Hey instead of fighting in Metropolis which was fucked up by YOUR doomsday weapon how about we fight somewhere where's they'll be less collateral damage?
Zod's reply
>Well as I do plan of murdering humanity that seems great! Wouldn't want any collateral damage for my genocide.
Oh, I'm being sarcastic by the way.
>>83319820
What about that terrorist he sent through like 10 walls.
>>83332526
Watch a good movie. It's called Superman II.
>>83332440
Jesus freak Amerifat detected.
You understand that Morrison doesn't make Superman Jesus. There are mythological gods other than Jesus you know?
>>83332395
>Nigga, he falls out of the ship in the crucifix position and has a halo over his head while praying in a Catholic church. How delusional are you that Snyder meant for him to be literally Jesus?
And you know that the cross is a Sular symbol right? He is using the stuff you are familiar with.
He isnt Space jesus, he is Kal El. All Sun gods are similar in different ways, jesus is the one you are more used to. That's all.
>>83323329
More like Superman fags can't comprehend how some of this Superman shit is so stupid and bullshit.
They're not as delusional as Bat or Hulk fags but definitely the most defensive.
>>83319820
Daily reminder that Superman isn't a "Man with Superpowers"
He's a Superb Man, who just happens to have powers.
>>83332582
And Snyder didnt make Superman Jesus.
>>83320503
>why isn't he smiling at this destruction:^)
>>83332566
Zod in Superman II is very different from Zod in Man of Steel.
If you prefer Superman II that's fine, I personally don't like the Donner Superman. Probably because I'm not American.
>>83332607
>He's a Superb Man, who just happens to have powers.
>His Name is Superman
HOLY SHIT! SOMEONE CALL SNYDER!
>>83332628
He didn't actually. He made him a Sun God.
Do you also not understand that ressurrection isn't solely within the archtype of gods which Jesus belongs too? Sure it an essential part of that type of deity, but it's also very common for... Solar deities due to the cycle of night and day.
>>83323660
Groan is the right word
>>83332720
>They call him a Sun God, but all he does is cast a big shadow over us
SOMEONE CALL SNYDER
>>83332274
>Honestly most of the MCU movies AREN'T good movies.
Same could be said about the DC movies. The last good one they had was The Dark Knight. DC has been on a straight losing streak.
Ironman, Captain America: TWS, Ant-man, GotG, The Avengers, and Captain America: TFA were all beyond mediocre.
> They aren't bad movies, and are definitely "pleasing movies" but then again the Transformers movies are "pleasing movies" too
Exactly, and that's what movies are meant to do. ENTERTAIN. Some people forget the whole point of watching a movie is to enjoy your experience. The cinema is conceptually built on escapism.
>everyone keeps going to see them so they work in that way
Because that's how it suppose to be when you enjoy a franchise.
>Everything else is meh-tier or bad-tier (Iron Man II and Avengers Age of Ultron being in the bad tier).
Just as every other cape movie to come otu before and after them.
>
And regardless of whether you thought Man of Steel or Batman v Superman were good or not; the people who enjoy them find depth in the movies.
Fair enough. If you enjoy them then that's your personal opinion, however to compare them to other movies for the sake of fanboying is a whole different story.
>This whole thread is people pointing out what they found through multiple viewings. Now you might have not liked it and not wanted to watch it again, but it says something that people keep making these threads.
Okay neat. People do this to MCU movies as well, As a matter of fact there isn't a film that doesn't get this treatment. It's called nitpicking and it's common even with crappy children movies. People keep making these threads because Batman vs. Superman was one of the most looked forward to movies in the World and people left not pleased. People are going back to look for something they missed, anything to further move them, so they'll be moved with anything fed to them. Since they're going in wanting to be moved.
(cont.)
>>83330633
The thing about that fake out scene that gets me is not only does it run on too long, with Bruce just sitting there for minutes in confusion instead of taking any action which is particularly odd when you realize he was awake and therefore had full autonomy, BUT how did he then go back to sleep and wake up startled?
Also I think whoever wrote that scene did it to piss my OCD. By that I mean am I really expected to believe the fucking Batcave doesn't have sensors and cameras and all sorts of shit to keep track of for times when some asshole speed forces through time and space into it? Bruce has no security or monitoring features to confirm if he was hallucinating or needs to step up defenses?
What the hell was Alfred doing while his master was being visited by ancient aliens?
Where I'm going with this is basically it should have happened in the privacy of his room upstairs or some other location where him being alone, without recording devices and taken by surprise is more plausible. I just don't understand why they would pick the most heavily equipped location for that.
Am I being fucked with? AM I BEING FUCKED WITH?!
Sort out the scenario or cut the bullshit, don't put the bullshit in the scenario and expect me not to call bullshit.
Because THAT'S DOUBLE BULLSHIT.
>>83332763
You know that EL means god right?
>>83332896
On my planet it means Pope
>>83324437
>>83320274
Honestly kind of these. I have no idea where this trolling/counter-trolling thing started with people arguing over it being "intelligent" or a masterpiece, or whatever, but I loved all of it. It was fun to watch.
It's sad when the arguments all come to "not muh" and shitposting.
>>83332913
>Pope Hope
Dope
The problem is that BvS doesn't have any subtlety whatsoever. Snyder just obnoxiously shoves intense religious iconography in your face to the point of headache as if he thinks the viewers are too stupid to understand. Even then, as a movie where the characters are supposed to symbolize broader concepts, their representation in the film misses the point. I'll give you an example.
Superman is supposed to be a Christ figure, right? Superman isn't great because of his powers, but because he is a good person who was raised by good people, who in turn uses his powers to do what he thinks is right. It is through his humanity that Superman becomes a Christ-like icon that all wish to be like. Jesus himself was the son of a carpenter. Nowhere does Superman just act like a good person, and when he does "good" things, it's so blatant and in your face to show you how "Messianic" he is that it looks like the way he's acting is because of him being a Christ-figure instead of Superman doing what he thinks is right making him a Christ-figure.
But that isn't the point. The real problem is with Lex. Luthor is supposed to be the perfect human specimen, athletic, handsome, intelligent, wealthy, powerful, and so on and son. Yet, Lex Luthor cannot comprehend how Clark Kent could even be Superman, even if you put Kent right in front of him, because Luthor cannot comprehend how someone as human as Clark Kent could be so much more as Superman. But in BvS, Lex is just some weirdo, not a man who believes himself to be the apex of human achievement going through an ego trip.
>>83332975
Nope
>>83332274
>>83332854
>I've never seen a single thread on /co/ speaking about Captain America The Winter Solider or Iron Man with as much analysis.
That's where you're wrong, because people generally didn't enjoy the first Captain America. It was only through viewing the Winter Soldier, when they got respect for the movie and re analysed it.
>>83332896
SOMEONE CALL SNYDER!
>>83331954
>It's the tension between the person he wants to be (Clark Kent) and the person he has to be (Superman) that makes Supes interesting.
No. He wants to be Superman, and he exaggerates being a goof as Clark Kent. Superman is who Clark Kent really is.
>Superman is this identity thrust upon him by his birthright. He must be the protector of humanity because no one else can, but he doesn't relish it.
Superman does what he does because he wants to, because he believes it's the right thing to do.
>This is not a Jesus figure on a holy quest to save humanity from it's sins, but a man who merely loves the goodness of the human race and deeply wishes to be a part of it, only accepting his inhumanity as part of his identity and the necessity of it for the preservation of the human race.
See: >>83333001
The reason why Supes is a Jesus figure is because of his humanity. Superman being 'beyond' human meaning 'in'-human falls into the same trap Snyder fell into.
>>83333008
I actually liked the first CapAm even before Avengers. Don't know why people didn't like it - it was dumb old-timey fun.
>>83332944
The movie is not intelligent or deep, the people that didnt get stuff like prometheus in the movie and still complain about "in your face" "jesus stuff" are retards.
And yes the movie has tons of flaws, but people was asking if Lex knew the identity of clark and asking why batman didnt kill the joker. Even people in this board just don't want to pay attention to the movies. The movie starts with Bruce being elevated by bats and yet people say the conflict between a failed Übermensch and what he perceives as a god makes no sense. The movie is simple, doesnt require anything more that middle school knowledge, isnt smart, and yet half of the people seem to believe Frankenstein references are there for the sake of being there and not part of the narrative.
>>83333116
>No. He wants to be Superman, and he exaggerates being a goof as Clark Kent. Superman is who Clark Kent really is.
No. You can always argue it either way.
Supes is really Superman and goofy Clark Kent is just the front.
Supes is really heart-of-gold Clark Kent and Superman is just him doing his job.
You can definitively say one or the other is his true self. Even moreso in the movies, where one thing they (accidentally) did well is show that Clark/Supes is a complicated issue that this Supes hasn't figured out.
>>83333130
>I actually liked the first CapAm even before Avengers. Don't know why people didn't like it - it was dumb old-timey fun.
Don't ever call it "CapAm" again, you lazy faggot.
>>83333001
>Luthor is supposed to be the perfect human specimen
He has never been that.
>>83332896
>>83332913
On my planet, it means, "The." InSpanish.
>>83333191
Wait why
>>83332854
>Exactly, and that's what movies are meant to do. ENTERTAIN. Some people forget the whole point of watching a movie is to enjoy your experience. The cinema is conceptually built on escapism.
This isn't an objective truth about film. Film is an artform like any other and different people want different things from their artforms. Someone isn't going to say Tolstoy is a bad writer because his novels aren't as successful as Harry Potter. Which isn't to denigrate Harry Potter, but people want different things from their art.
Most of the people I've spoken too IRL actually enjoyed Batman v Superman, not everyone mind you, but a lot of people did.
As too the nitpicking comment a lot of the people who post the cape-kino threads about Batman v Superman re discussing themes, symbolism, literary and mythological allusions, and metatextuality. I haven't seen a thread discussing Civil War with any level of depth in those regards. Which isn't to say Civil War was bad (I'd put it in the meh tier of Marvel movies though, but that's me personally); it's just the people who enjoyed it enjoyed it in a different way than the people who enjoyed Batman v Superman.
>>83332593
This is so desperate to deny the realities of the film I don't even know how to respond.
Desperate
Desperate
Your turn
>>83333199
>Implying Marlon Brando at any stage of his life isn't the perfect human specimen
>>83333141
The bar for a text to be considered intelligent these days is pretty low.
I agree I got the whole failed and than succeeding Ubermensch thing because it's pretty obvious if you've read any Nietzsche, and the illusions to Greek myth are even more obvious too if you have working knowledge of Greek mythology. But people are really stupid it would seem.
>>83333183
The answer comes from who he becomes when lois die.
Superman arc is usually the same:
Normal kid that doesnt understand what happens to him; Teen that has a secret and explore himself; Young adult trying to fit in; Leader of men and finally fets among peers. Then Lois dies, and eventually bruce dies and he start living 24/7 as Superman, either explores space or try to to improve humankind.
He is all that, but his life as Clark is finite. Eventually the Superman identity outlives Kent. And there's nothing wrong with that.
>>83333356
But is he really still just Clark in his heart?
>>83333257
i give you that. But i'm really tired of DCUA and Johnsfags that think that's the only valid luthor.
Even "skinny" lex was always a manlet
>>83332274
>I've never seen a single thread on /co/ speaking about Captain America The Winter Solider or Iron Man with as much analysis.
You've been here all of 5 minutes then?
I recall the instant the MCU was confirmed as a big jigsaw puzzle people were digging through every scene and conversation for hints at connections, implications and thematic links.
Even so much as the
>Would be to court Death
Line from Avengers had people speculating whether the MCU would be going with the self-destructive death drive angle for Thanos that Starlin built up as his demise given most moviegoer audiences would think it just silly for a villain to have.
There was then a back and forth about the psychology of existing villains for comparison as to how they were received, particularly I recall it being considered where Loki may be manipulating the heroes into coming together so they'll stop or at least hinder Thanos without Thanos realizing Loki betrayed him since Loki is after all supposed to be the God of Trickery, which then lead to the current belief he may substitute Mephisto in Infinity Gauntlet.
All pure speculation that has yet to be addressed in the movies, but the point is even years ago before TWS arrived people were all over overanalyzing everything since a comic setting will inherently have these sort of outlandish twists and turns in their storytelling since they can get away with it.
tl;dr this is nothing new, you may just be new to it since you and many others in /tv/ only got involved recently due to all the fuss around BvS.
>>83333378
I think that is safe to asume Superman would always love his ma, pa, lois, and will always remember bruce and Jimmy, but aside from human EMOTIONS i doubt he is "clark anymore" or even Kal El, he would end up being just Superman.
>>83333535
Boy I remember thread after thread of Iron Man 3 discussions, and my explaining why it's bad and dumb and the Mandarin's not the problem at all.
Glad people have finally agreed that it was terribad and no one talks about IM2/3 any more.
>>83333378
Truly, that's the person he wants to be, but in bad timelines like Kingdom Come he doesn't have that option.
Maybe BvS is supposed to be a dark timeline, but to me it just comes off as Snyder hating Superman and thinking he's a perfect, infallible boyscout and writing him as Jesus as a result. Most non-comic fans hate Supes too and have a similar opinion, but it doesn't seem like people really loved the film even with the Supes hate.
>>83333621
>wrote Superman as infallible
Only he didn't do that but instead wrote him as all too human.
>>83333621
Well it simply wasn't a well-done film. Like BvS, it had good parts wasted in bad writing / pacing, except BvS had even worse bad writing / pacing.
There are actually really good ideas in MoS in Superman's characterization (especially the idea that "Superman" is the answer to the conflicting ideals of his two fathers). Too bad it keeps getting botched, and BvS did nothing to fix it.
>>83333199
>a man who believes himself to be the apex of human achievement going through an ego trip
It's less so that he's really "perfect" but that he's filled with characteristics which people ascribe to what a "perfect human specimen" should be (athletic, handsome, intelligent, wealthy, charismatic, powerful, what have you).
Lex sees Superman as something he could never be, reaching limits no human being could ever hope to achieve. He sees how Superman is revered as an idol for the world to follow, but doesn't see that the reason for this is because he's using his powers to do what he thinks is the right thing to do. All Lex sees is power he could never have.
In BvS, it's the complete opposite. Luthor is some skinny weirdo that hates Superman for similar reasons (that Supes is something no human could hope to achieve and he's undergoing an ego trip), but within the dimension that he himself is a pathetic socially-inept born-with-silver-spoon-in-mouth weirdo. It completely changes Lex as a concept. Instead of a guy who views himself very highly (because of his characteristics) having an ego trip, it's a guy who's a pathetic nerd that hates someone who's better than him.
As a character (and not a concept), I wouldn't mind something different, but since Snyder promotes the characters to be less characters and more so concepts, symbols, or whatever, how we address them should shift focus at least a little.
>>83333621
>>83333621
>Maybe BvS is supposed to be a dark timeline
Is not, and kingdome come isnt either
>but to me it just comes off as Snyder hating Superman
Not making things easier for the character doesnt mean someone hates it, the movie is a TRAGEDY
>and thinking he's a perfect, infallible boyscout
How? The isnt infallible, that was the end of MoS, and he has to deal with the weight of all his actions, he is tested all the time
>and writing him as Jesus as a result.
He isnt Jesus, he is a sun god, one of many.
>>83330005
Because Zod can break the gold and fly back down.
He did that in the movie, Superman punched him into orbit and he just grabbed a satellite to bring back with him.
Zod was not going to let himself be stopped unless he was killed.
>>83333794
>Kingdom Come isn't a dark timeline
Confirmed for never having read it, okay. Why not just say you haven't or not address that point at all?
>Not making things easier for the character doesnt mean someone hates it, the movie is a TRAGEDY
He has no emotions at all. He's a fucking god with no feelings. He just lets his dad die in front of him because greater things~
>How? The isnt infallible, that was the end of MoS, and he has to deal with the weight of all his actions, he is tested all the time
And are there any real repercussions in BvS? No. He still dies like the Jesus Snyder thinks he is.
>He isnt Jesus, he is a sun god, one of many.
Stop this meme. You are completely wrong. He is written to be Jesus Christ of Nazareth; to die for our sins. I already called you beyond delusional for thinking anything else.
Listen, homie, I don't know if you're trolling or what, but if you cannot understand the Jesus shit, you are either delusional or so desperate that you are trying to defend and indefensible position. If the later, I have to ask why? Are you being paid to?
>>83333941
much bait
>>83333970
Thanks for confirming your trolling. I was actually starting to get concerned someone could be so totally retarded.
>>83333535
No from /tv/ and I'm not talking about plot. All the things you addressed were talking about plot threads and where they go.
Pretty much all of the Batman v Superman discussions are about theme, symbolism, literary and mythological allusions, and metatextuality. Hardly any Batman v Superman discussions are about where the DCEU saga is going to go as far as plot is concerned.
I wasn't saying people don't discuss them, I'm saying that they're discussed in a different way. And you're correct I should have made that more clear in my previous post.
Also, I want to be clear that different doesn't mean "better" or "smarter"; it just means different.
>>83333754
>t he's filled with characteristics which people ascribe to what a "perfect human specimen" should be
>athletic
Not in most versions, and he is far from being fucking batman
>handsome
Not in most versions, in fact that started in the 2000's, before that the only handsome lex was the cloned body
>intelligent
Sure
>wealthy
Not "perfect human"
>charismatic
Kinda
>powerful
Not a human characteristic.
All that stuff about "human limitations?
Those are LIES Lex tell himself to justify him being a terrible person, the stuff about his father? More shit he doesnt care. He is a terrible person regardless of Superman. He will always find a reason to be a terrible person
>>83334025
I'm not that guy you were replying to.
Still nice bait
>>83319142
I know you're trolling, but that actually is pretty amusing.
>>83319948
W@ahhhjjjjjjjjjj
>>83334031
>heme, symbolism, literary and mythological allusions, and metatextuality
And 95% of that discussion is "Look at this visual allusion to classic art! That means the scene has depth, because it references something!"
Snyder made 2.5 hours of references to better works of art and forgot to add any characters to make us care about them. It's Scary Movie for the art-house crowd.
>>83333941
There's nothing dark about kingdom come.
Kingdom come is AFTER the dark future, you keep shitposting and shitposting, but you will never change the fact that Snyder Superman is the more human and in contact with his emotions that we have ever had in the media
>>83333941
If Kingdom Come is a dark timeline why are Bruce, Diana, and Clark having a meal together at the end with Bruce having already guessed that Clark and Diana are announcing their pregnancy?
I'm sure Bruce is traumatised about the idea of being a godfather...
>He just lets his dad die in front of him because greater things~
He obeys his father's last wish; it's clear he is quite emotional about the fact that his dad just died before his eyes.
>And are there any real repercussions in BvS?
Superman is dead and Darkseid knows about earth. No consequences whatsoever...
>Stop this meme.
Superman literally gets is powers from the SUN. Also, the Justice League is a pantheon whereas Jesus is a monotheistic deity. Superman is the light and Batman is the dark in their pantheon. Confirmed for not reading any Justice League books.
Also, just because you're only aware of Jesus because you're an easily triggered Protestent Amerifat doesn't mean the rest of the world, or even people outside of the flyover states agree with your own ignorance of human mythology.
And I ain't even the person you were replying too.
>>83319142
I know, it's so dense, every single image has so many things going on.
>>83319142
>This film is honestly a masterpiece
Is there someone as desperate as Snyder in this entire industry?
>>83334144
>And 95% of that discussion is "Look at this visual allusion to classic art! That means the scene has depth, because it references something!"
Then why is pretty much 95% of this discussion not talking about "muh visuals"? I will give it to you that /tv/ shitposters go on and on with that shit.
But in their defence talking about the visuals of a film is important in discussing any film because it is a visual medium. Fuck comics are a visual medium too; talking about the visuals for either is important.
>>83323511
That's the point dummy, it's a fucking joke. They are mocking the idiots who think this was a good movie and justify their shit opinions by falling back to the idea that this movie was in some way shape or form "deep" when in reality it was just as shallow as all these other super hero films but took itself way too seriously and tried way too hard to make these men in tights fighting each other serious subject matter by borrowing bits from much better writers over the past 40 or so years.
Why would a human being do that, you ask? Fuck if I know, I'm not a faggot.
>>83334394
The few people that still talk about this movie is about some unoriginal symbolism.
>>83321030
Fuck all of this. I've said it once and I'll say it again, that shit only works for minis or short elseworlds. You can't make an ongoing with that kind of character. I mean for fuck sake, we already no the hero will always win in capeshit, do you we really need to be cock smacked with it in every fucking issue?
>>83334430
Shitposting/10
>>83334575
Tell me, what do the people who still talk about BvS talk about?
All I see is the same dump of copypastas and pics trying to explain why the movie isn't garbage.
>Characters talking for more than 5 lines is dumb and silly, can't have that
>Lex force feeds a guy a jolly rancher
I think Snyder is just fucking with everyone.
>>83319820
This is one of the only times in Snyder's movies i actually felt that, though.
>>83334037
>Not a human characteristic.
By powerful, I meant it in like a political sense. ("Power" for Superman means the superpowers, though.)
>Those are LIES Lex tell himself to justify him being a terrible person, the stuff about his father? More shit he doesn't care. He is a terrible person regardless of Superman. He will always find a reason to be a terrible person
Yes, I know. My point is that these characteristics exist to legitimize his delusions. Showing him as blatantly pathetic instead of someone with prominent superficially "positive" characteristics really being pathetic once you start thinking about it is my problem. It defeats any sense of subtlety, and transforms the concept of Lex, at least in relation to him 'overcoming' "Superman/Jesus", into something different. Luthor's ego is a big part of the concept of his character.
Again, I don't mind a different take in principle, but since Snyder's going through the whole concepts before character approach to characterization, and since Lex is one of the three main characters in the film, I have disagreements.
>He is a terrible person regardless of Superman. He will always find a reason to be a terrible person
Well, I don't know about this. Alt-universes of Lex being a 'good guy' I've always found appealing, but that's a whole different conversation.
>>83334426
>Why would a human being do that, you ask?
Because film in general (especially blockbuster film) is a horrible medium. Almost as bad as comic books. All the massive consumerism and what not.
The problem isn't really with one medium of art being somehow inferior to others, but the whole idea of "deep" "intellectual" art. Not to promote anti-intellectual crap, but the majority of the "intellectual" content of supposedly "intellectual" stuff is really overestimated. There's no fundamental different between an "intellectual" and a pseudo because the majority of both are morons who are to full of themselves to see their own stupidity.
>>83319820
>1.jpg
lmao
>>83323096
>a beautiful artist reference
>the fucking piss Christ
That's the easiest example of something that's childish and "provacative" just for the sake of sucking it's own dick. It's a fedora tipping in physical form.
>And it perfectly sums up Snyders attempts at arthouse film.
