Okay, wait a minute...
So Nuperman isn't really Kal, but someone else that Manhattan repurposed to fill in for him since Superman was out-of-universe at the time.
So if the real Lois is with the real Superman, who's NuLois?
>>83252300
Lucy Lane?
>>83252300
One theory is that New 52 Superman and Lois are actually the reborn versions of Earth-2 (as in the Golden Age Earth) Superman and Lois, who both died during Infinite Crisis.
>>83252423
Good theory. They were both buried in the Earth-0 universe, not Earth-2.
>>83252300
Where did this theory that they aren't the real ones come from?
They are either copies of the pre-new52 ones changed to fit the new universe, or they are the originals from pre-new52 changed to fit the universe and the Lois and Clark who are married and have a kid are the copies. Either way they are both "real".
>>83252516
Some mysterious person told Superman Classic that neither he nor New Superman were who they thought they were.
This led to /co/ theorizing that Nuperman is really pre-FP Kon.
>>83252626
then who the hell is Lois + Clark Superman who remembers before Flashpoint?
>>83252626
Does anyone else who started regularly following DC around the lauch of New52 feel cheated?
I feel slightly cheated by this development, and am taking a big step back and waiting to see where the story goes before re-evaluating my commitment to DC.
>>83252300
Who says Manhattan stuck Superman with the real Lois?
>>83252393
Nah, she already showed up, first as a potential love interest for Nuperman, then as a lesbian butterfly.
>>83252626
>Some mysterious person
It was Ozymandias.
>>83252516
>Where did this theory that they aren't the real ones come from?
The fact that the Nu52 Superman's powerset and attitude is closer to the Golden Age Superman's at times and the fact that the Golden Age one did die on Earth in Infinite Crisis and Johns has wanted to bring him back since Justice Society of America. The fact that there is another Lois. So people point out that from the fan perspective this is the "most simple" theory that addresses most of the issues.
>>83252769
>Does anyone else who started regularly following DC around the lauch of New52 feel cheated?
Now you know how the old readers felt. How's the whole "NOT MUH" thing going on?
>>83252845
Ozymandias isn't black through.
>>83252845
Dr. Oz doesn't look like Ozymandias. Everyone thought he was Pa Kent at first.
>>83252769
were you new to capeshit then?
If not, you should've seen through the lies
>>83252902
>>83252903
Mr. Oz isn't black. You guys are confusing him with his black assistant.
>>83252906
No I've been a mostly DC guy all my life. It's just that before the New52 and the rise of digital, being eurotrash kept me from really following the ongoings.
>>83252958
Did you even read Rebirth?
He absolutely is black.
Pic related.
>>83253062
He doesn't look black there and he wasn't black before.
>>83252958
Of course that tattoo fuels the idea that he is Ozymandias. Tilt your head a bit.
>>83253062
I bet you thought DCAU Luthor was black too
>>83252902
Neither is Wally West.
Oh, wait.....
While not black, he's blind from one eye.
I'm not reading anymore superman comics. I might read super sons
>>83253236
That was his cousin.
>>83252705
They'd have to be the real Lois and Clark. That's the point.
What Rebirth revealed is that Nu52 isn't an alternate universe, it's still Post-Crisis Earth but its history has been tampered with.
And since Married Lois and Clark come from pre-Flashpoint, they have to be the Lois and Clark who BELONG here.
Brainiac plucked them out of the timeline in Convergence, so when Dr. Manhattan dicked with history, he would've had to find a replacement to shove into the hole in the world that is the missing Lois and Clark.
>>83252423
Yeah it's pretty easily this.
>>83253429
>That was his cousin
Sure, NOW it was his cousin. That's a retcon of a retcon. Give them a few years and they'll retcon it again. That's the point, they could make Ozy black if they wanted to and there's nothing stopping them.
>>83253425
Superwoman seems ok. Has basically all the good waifus (Lois, Lana, Traci, Natasha?) and a potentially good new villainfu.
I'm staying away form Jurgens and Tomasi though.
>>83253125
Oh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit
>>83253521
everything makes sense now, thanks
>>83252891
I'm with Grant. Crisis on Infinite Earths was a mistake. They should be able to add worlds to the multiverse without having to murder fuck older worlds.
Why can't we have Nu52 Earth and New Earth? Why can't both live?
>>83252626
>This led to /co/ theorizing that Nuperman is really pre-FP Kon.
That thread was so dumb. I hope people realize Kal-L makes the most sense.
>>83252958
I like the theory that he's Snyder-verse Pa Kent.
Oz was transported to another world through a tornado and so was Pa Kent. It also explains his comment about "teaching" Clark.
>>83252769
>cheated
>commitment
They're comic books, you nancy, not your girlfriend.
I still say Mr Oz is the wizard Shazam making a Wizard of Oz joke and nothing will convince me otherwise.
So...does this explain how the multiverse was saved but the earths "evolved" in Convergence?
Dr M dicked with the continuity of all the other Earths as well as Earth 0?
I'm still confused how the fuck the worlds "evolved". What happened to the original worlds?
>>83252300
superwoman.
SO if mr. oz is saying that pre flashpoint supes and his family arent who they believe themselves to be then who the hell are they?
Was he talking about them not being from that timelime or are they not real either?
>>83253836
Butterfly effect from pre-Flashpoint Supes and Parallax changing the outcome of the Crisis.
>>83252423
I like this theory. It sound right.
>>83253836
Convergence didn't make sense, it's easier to write it off and say it have a lasting effect on anything except the shitty Nu52 Earth-2.
Like, the story insists at the end that Crisis on Infinite Earths now never happened...except there are still only 52 universes so that's not true at all.
All it ACTUALLY did besides Lois and Clark and Earth-2 give Venditti a way to have a Hal from the past when he was Parallax come to the present and fight regular Hal.
>>83253907
>SO if mr. oz is saying that pre flashpoint supes and his family arent who they believe themselves to be then who the hell are they?
Probably the "real" superman and lois. dead superman is probably Conner given current superboy was apparently a clone of an alternate version of their son.
>>83253836
That explains literally nothing and is best left forgotten. Multiverse has a local 52 Earths and infinite stuff outside of that, does not need to be more complicated than that.
>Dr M dicked with the continuity of all the other Earths as well as Earth 0?
Probably not directly but fucking with E-0 has a ripple effect because it's the lynchpin
>>83253968
There's more than one multiverse. Whichever Earth JL3000/3001 takes place on isn't part of the 52.
>>83253983
The Conner theory makes no sense. It's Kal-L for sure.
>>83253896
>superwoman
just died, try again
>>83254080
That was Earth-3. New 52 Lois is starring in Superwoman.
>>83253589
Plus Jimenez is good, and it's gonna have Steel, who rules.
Supergirl also has a good team, and is FINALLY getting into her dad being Cyborg Superman.
New Super-Man definitely has potential.
The Superman line as a whole looks really good.
Except the ones actually about Superman.
>>83254080
<-
>>83253708
I never understood why DC felt there could only be a limited number of universes in the multiverse. Once you get that number filled up you can't really do what ifs any more without someone bringing that shit up.
>>83253836
>>83253945
>>83253968
>>83254018
>So...does this explain how the multiverse was saved but the earths "evolved" in Convergence?
It wasn't. The comic makes that clear. Crisis on Infinite Earths happened as it was. I don't understand why people thought this.
You guys are all crazy.
>>83254276
Did you miss the part where Supes, Lois, and her baby and Parallax were sent to help in the Crisis and then they showed up on Earth Prime later on?
>>83254275
That's not true. You can always do alternate dimensions and shit that aren't part of the multiverse and revisit them. Like the anti-matter universe. The "limit" wasn't a true limit unless you lack imagination.
I'm stick of stories about stories and metashit. I would be perfectly fine going back to Superman throwing abusive spouses and shitty landlords and mad scientists into walls and that be it again. No bullshit about Superman representing something in our society and the thing he's fighting represents something else in it.
>>83254335
They went out to help, but were unable to change the outcome of the conflict.
>>83254275
Why not?
Between CoIE and Infinite Crisis/52 when there was supposedly only one Earth they did alternate universes all the time.
>>83254364
The whole point of sending them was so that time would get unfucked so Brainiac could restore everyone back in their proper timelines.
>>83254408
No, Brainiac wanted to place everyone back to where they belonged, specially Pre-CoIE Flash and Supergirl, that were going to die in that. So Superman and Parallax decided to help them out.
can someone explain the 10 lost years thing to a retard like me
>>83254489
when new 52 launched everyone had only been operating for 5 years instead of "about 15" and they redid most of their origin stories.
>>83254489
it's just 10 total years stolen not concurrent
that's basically it
The New 52 is Post COIE minus 10 years?
>>83255660
Pretty much. Dr. M took a year here and a year there like Jenga blocks leaving the universe still standing but unsteady like it might fall if you look at it top hard
>>83253726
Pre Flashpoint Superman sacrificing himself and inspiring nuSuperman to be more like him makes more sense. Kal-L will be just be added to the JSA and it will take away the charm of the team.
>>83255937
Which Superman became a turd again?
>>83255953
The new one.
>>83252891
>How's the whole "NOT MUH" thing going on?
Except this is DC literally saying "NOT MUH".
>>83252769
I hope all "Not muh" people are rounded and gassed.
>>83255660
>>83255832
I understand but am still kinda confused
So did Flashpoint have any effect at all or was it just Dr. M this whole time? Why is Wally a kid again?
>>83256029
>>83256090
It's weird coming form Johns.
Remember how back when people complained that events like Identity Crisis were turning characters into edgy mind wiping in-fighting assholes when they should be heroes Johns made a giant straw man of fan complaints that believed the universe was corrupted from what it was suppose to be?
Now the heroes are fighting against a strawman of edge that corrupted their universe from the way it was supposed to be.
This is just Superboy Prime all over again with the sides switched.
Did Johns change and decide that Kal-L had a point?
>>83256314
>Why is Wally a kid again?
he's a young adult but it's because Manhattan stole 10 years
>>83256314
Johns never wanted Flashpoint to change continuity. The thing with Pandora was added by Jim Lee and friends.
Instead of continuity being altered by Pandora and Flash to combat some sort of vague ultimate enemy its instead been altered by Dr M for reasons unknown, more than likely sinister.
Dr M used Flashpoint as a "window" to fuck with time.
>>83256339
>Manhattan stole 10 years
>yet he still has memories post-Teen Titans
I'm still not sure that was a good idea, Wally the man was infinitely more important than Wally the sidekick
>>83256370
>Jim Lee and friends
Are they still working at DC and if so, what do they think about having their babies murdered in front of them by the old guard?
Were tears involved? Please tell me there were tears involved.
>>83252769
Yeah. I kinda do. I got in with Nu52 Superman so Rebirth/Final Days of Superman had me going like "Well damn".
>>83252891
The one thing I swore I'd never become. How can I deal with the pain? Tell me /co/mrade.
>>83256566
Johns has basically transformed into Superboy Prime and gone full NOT MUH.
Which is good. Prime and Kal-L were right.
I just hope that rumor about the Empty Hand being a stand in for Snyder (he directed Watchmen, Oz might be Pa Kent from Snyderverse) is true. God I'd forgive Cereal King so much if it were true.
>>83252769
I started reading regularly following some ongoings about a year into the New 52 after having previously only picked up old trades, and I don't feel cheated at all, mainly because I'm not a continuityfag. I've always tried to read stories that were actually good and roll with whatever lore they're using rather than slopping up every title a character shows up in.
>>83256535
He has memories because his spirit or whatever is pre-Flashpoint. But his body is new 52 and he also has a natural new 52 history along with it (which is what Barry remembers when he remembers Wally).
They're saying he'll go by Flash on Titans. He's not a sidekick unless you considered Jay a sidekick during Wally's run.
>>83254067
That was also always true though. Morrison pretty much designed the structure of the multiverse after Infinite Crisis and the original 52 book brought it back, so that while we know of only 52 worlds in the Orrery, there's an infinite number of clustered Earths outside those 52 too.
Convergence didn't change shit.
>>83256575
At least you're not NOT MUH about both pre-Flashpoint and new 52 Superman like I am. Even this guy they brought back pretending he's pre-Flashpoint doesn't feel right to me. I cannot stand the idea that he just sat out all these major events.
>>83256566
A month or two ago, when what Rebirth would be was announced, Dan Didio and Jim Lee literally got on stage and, to paraphrase, admitted on-camera "Nu52 was a mistake and that's why sales are in the shitter so now we're letting Geoff fix everything because he's the only one of us who knows what the fuck he's doing"
>>83256648
>Johns has basically transformed into Superboy Prime and gone full NOT MUH.
Johns was always Superboy Prime.
>>83256756
I know all that, but it still sucks that we haven't seen a "Earth-2 untouched by the crisis world" or a "New Earth before Infinite Crisis" world.
I mean we KNOW they're out there. Morrison has every comic book be a reflection of some world out there. But it sucks that we don't see them.
I just want an Earth-2 with a JSA.
One of the things I've never understood is how Wally could remember the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths if it took place in a continuity that was supposedly erased.
>>83256863
DCYou was a mistake. But the New 52? Nah.
>>83257046
Infinite Crisis made everybody remember how things were before CoIE. Before that everybody thought that the fight with Anti-Monitor was for the sake of just the planet Earth, including Wally.
>>83253589
I don't get the Jurgens hate at the moment, Lois and Clark has been really good. Reminds me of the good 90s early 2000 comics. He is definitely worth giving a chance
>>83256925
I can buy this considering how much he like Silver Age stuff.
But then what was Superboy Prime? Him going through a period of self-hate? A way to dig at the status quo while still officially toeing the line by making him a bad guy?
>>83256863
He's better by far than Didio and Lee but he's still not doing the best thing.
The best thing being having Nu 52 and New Earth existing side by side. What Johns is just the pendulum swinging the other way.
The closest thing to what I want to see form DC is Multiversity Too because it ignores all the convoluted retcon bullshit and just promises to tell stories.
>>83257111
Thematically, The New 52 was a failure. Geoff Johns said so. In his words The New 52 killed the DC spirit.
>>83257131
It's not hate, it's apathy. Lois and Clark was mediocre and boring to me and I want more than that from the Superbooks (or anything really). And it's literally just Doomsday retread that doesn't sound interesting at all.
>>83257131
DC has given him multiples chances for Nu52 at the expense of much better writers. Batman Beyond, Aquaman & the Others even Justice League Internationl. He is just not every good and a fossil like Levitz.
>>83257170
>In his words The New 52 killed the DC spirit.
In Rebirth he has Wally say it started before the new 52 actually. But the new 52 was the biggest change in direction obviously.
>>83257155
Superboy Prime is a riff at the fandom. Except now he has gone a 180 and realized the fandom was right (though technically he was probably against nu52 from the start).
>>83257170
DC had plenty of bad books before the New 52.
>>83257170
johnns can fuck off and take his shit books with him.
>>83257300
Johns was talking about the universe, not the books per see.
>>83257131
>The best thing being having Nu 52 and New Earth existing side by side.
You can't publish two universes in equal amounts at the same time, one has to be the main line.
Also, part of Rebirth is that DC had to scale back to only 30-some books per month with double-shipping on the biggest name titles to drive their profits back up.
>>83257361
was supposed to be for >>83257155
Everyday until you like it
>>83257457
can't trigger anyone with a dead ship, even new 52 Clark/Lois was being seeded before he died
>>83257457
Such a fucking stupid idea. Don't they realize this pairing make both character worse?
>>83257457
Good luck, Sisyphus
>>83257361
I get that, but does one Earth have to ret-die when it drops out of being the main line?
When they switch seasons of Digimon they don't destroy the universe of the last season to make "room" for the next.
>>83254080
where have you been for the past month?
>>83257498
I kind of feel like that might have been the point, to do it and show how bad it is so it's out of the way going forward. Doesn't make sense otherwise. All the creators working on the characters at the time don't ship it and I don't see why editorial would push it either.
>>83257743
It was probably Jim Lee or Harras who wanted him. Though I think the book was pushed by Berganza.
>>83252769
Welcome to the past 5 years of my life with the nu52. Marvel had the right idea with thr Ult universe, even if it was shit. Have the main universe and a casual universe. Now if they'd just do the same now and have a main universe and a SJW universe.
>>83254364
Kara and Barry are explicitly shown to be alive after the battle.
>>83258407
No Kal-L around to go to the crystal dimension either.
>>83252769
Why would you feel cheated when the revelation that they're the same universe also means that what happened in both of them are equally canon?
>>83258627
Because it means Nu DC is getting paved under so a psuedo-New Earth can stand on its corpse.
Its the reverse of what happened with NU 52 killing New Earth.
Why is Morrison the only one that's all "fuck it, make another Earth, we have an infinity of them"
>>83258451
This could have been god tier if they didn't fuck up with the whole "but they aren't really they same Earths they evolved slightly GOTCHA".
COIE should have never happened, and I'm glad that now it sort of didn't even with the bullshit "earth evolutions"
How does someone interpret "but they really lost" from this page? It says right there they kicked Anti Monitor's ass.
>>83258923
But everything that happened in the New52 still happened. It's just that now everything pre-52 happened to them as well.
>>83252423
But didn't Convergence imply they were alive on their own Earth? Or are they "time remnants" or some shit.
So about the discussion regarding CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS and CONVERGENCE...
In CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS the publisher established that the infinite universes that existed at the time were an aberration that were created by Krona when he tried to glimpse the beginning of creation. It was as if existence had broken and splintered in small shards. What was one then because of it became many. One universe became infinite universes.
When the heroes fought the Anti-Monitor at the beginning of creation in the end of the book they somehow were able to manage to stop the splintering of existence. Thus what would be infinite universes remained a single universe.
What CONVERGENCE established is that the heroes managed to do the same thing, but in a different way, slightly changing the landscape of Earth-0.
That thought doesn't explain the existence of the other 51 universes, since these universes were a creation of Alexander Luthor Junior, of the Pre-CoIE Earth-3, during the events of INFINITE CRISIS, which now never happened.
>>83252769
Nah I'm good with the changes. I just didn't like the fact that they killed this Supes, I liked him, there was NOTHING wrong with him, absolutely nothing.
I hope he comes back
>>83252769
Don't follow publishers, follow writers and artists.
>>83252300
>So Nuperman isn't really Kal, but someone else that Manhattan repurposed to fill in for him since Superman was out-of-universe at the time.
>>83263660
Bigger heartbreak lies that way. When you do that and a writer betrays you you're damaged forever.
Artists are the safest, but even they can phone in a book sometimes for a quick cash in.
>>83256370
is manhatten the vague ultimate enemy?
>>83252845
It was Rorschach
