Did you like his contributions to the MCU or are you glad he's gone?
>>83036645
The first Avengers movie went better than I expected, maybe because of him. The second one was shit, maybe because of him. Agents of SHIELD is a cynical money-grab that sucks heinous amounts of dick, probably because of him.
Ehh...I appreciate some of what he did, but I'm glad he's gone
>>83036645
Avengers I is good, it's all i have to say
>>83036645
Some artists don't just make pictures, they make an image. His characters images left dents, scratches and bruises. They fade. Nothing broken.
Real question is, did he make anything you liked at all?
>>83036645
I love Avengers 1 still but you could tell in Ultron he didn't care anymore. Either that or there was more studio notes.
Glad he was there but glad he's gone now. Wouldn't mind seeing him return but I'd rather he tackle something else besides Avengers.
>>83036645
I enjoyed the first Avengers but can never forgive him for the atrocities of the second. My theory is that the very tight schedule of the first prevented him from going full Whedon.
>>83036645
I think it was important that he set up Avengers 1 to be what it was. I can basically forgive him for Age of Ultron because of the excellent platform that Avengers brought to the MCU. It's what allowed Ant-Man and GotG to be made into actual movies.
>>83036645
He literally raped my childhood.
>>83036645
Similar to JJ Abrams with Star Wars and Star Trek. He did a good job at making a difficult concept work, but I'm glad he's moved on to different things because the style he did the films in can get bland when you see them in a sequel. One film is definitely enough.
avengers and AoU are basically the same fucking movie and both are mediocre as fuck
>>83036913
This.
Watching the first one again after the second it was easier to see how Whedon could've fucked a lot of things up, but for some reason didn't
I like his contributions to the MCU but I'm glad he's gone.
>>83036867
>Nothing broken.
Except Quicksilver
>>83036645
He made AoS non canon, so people with taste (like myself) will thank him from here to eternity.
>>83037072
When will this meme end?
Immensely glad, he contributed nothing positive to the series.
>>83036645
Avengers 1 lived up to the hype. He gets props for that. It was a big movie that I was convinced would fuck up (because lets be honest outside Ironman 1 none of the phase 1 movies are that great) but it turned out to be one of the funnest movies of all time.
Clearly he couldn't handle the pressure on him to deliver another one after that, and for that I feel for him, but I'm still glad he's gone.
I don't resent him for it though, not many directors could handle that kind of pressure.
>>83036645
I want the fucking ginger cuck dead. His contributions were fucking shit, and i hope he gags to death on anitas strap on.
>>83037299
AoS? It could go on forever, like many fanfics do.
>>83036645
Thanks for Vision and Scarlet Witch, but that's all.
>>83036645
Enjoyed both films.
In not being an unrealistic spaz whenever possible, mainly just appreciate how well done they are compared to actual garbage like Fantastic 4.
>>83036645
I enjoyed both Avengers films for what they were but I can't shake the feeling that we'd have gotten better movies from a better writer and/or director. Both films were incredibly Whedonesque and, frankly, that's not a good thing.
I like some of his contributions, but I'm glad he's gone. He was great with dialogue and characterization, but not so much with action or pacing. I liked Civil War much better than either of the Avengers movies.
He didn't like the studio forcing him to set up future films in "Age of Ultron," which happened anyway and I think it was worse because he did it under protest. Which strikes me as an absurd thing to resist for the first film franchise that's a combination of four other franchises.
Civil War, by contrast, used that obligation to advertise other movies to enhance its own story.
>>83038403
>He was great with dialogue
Rewatched Thor 2 and avengers 2 and while Thor was better than I remembered avengers was so so bad. Whedon did some cool things, but man does he drop the ball ok dialogue and characterization. Russos are extremely better at both.
>>83036645
>le_quippy_feminist
Yes I'm glad he's gone.
I liked him a lot. He gets a really disproportionate amount of hate, which I feel has less to do with his work and more from saying feminist stuff on Twitter.
>>83036831
I strongly suspect it was the micromanaging hands of the studio that resulted in AoU's problems, with the movie being somewhat salvaged at the sake of Whedon's nerves to the point he hadda bail.
The first Avengers was exactly what the franchise needed to show off what a cinematic universe could do.
I enjoyed the second one enough, more than most people here. That being said, my biggest problem with it is what it could have been and overall I'd still consider it a disappointment. I'm not thrilled about having already wasted Ultron, but I don't think there's anything AoU did that can't be repaired later if they want to.
Overall, I'm glad he's gone. I don't hate him or his movies, but I think there are better options out there for Marvel.
>>83036831
He didn't even make AoS
Also every movie or show ever made is a money grab
>>83038624
Yeah, it's just pathetic when any fan of superheroes or blockbuster movies is able to enjoy corny dialogue.
>>83038765
Russos don't write the dialogue in their movies.
An important Thing to remember when making comparisons is that Whedon wrote and directed the movies he worked on, while TWS and CW were directed but not written by the Russos. Markus & McFeely wrote all of the Captain America movies.
He'd be ideal for Spider-Man. Russos/Markus/McFeely are better with serious stuff but their banter is just lazy.
>>83038931
Enjoyment isn't indicative of the dialogue quality. I enjoy corny puns, bit I realize that they're often bad jokes.
This is from a review I once saw:
>"As far as my feelings on the Russos helming A:IW, well, Joss Wheddon said that helming the Avengers films was an endurance trial, that takes superhuman stamina, so it makes sense that they got two directors to helm the biggest movie in the series. While I have all the confidence in the world that the Russos will deliver a great film, I still think that they should let Joss have a pass at the script, not to alter the plot of that movie in any way but to add his own unique brand of dialogue to it, wich gave the Avengers their very funny, entertaining and distinct voices in his movies, making the dialogue scenes just as entertaining as the action ones."
Do you agree?
>>83036645
Yes
Yes
He did a great thing in Avengers 1, he respected the source material and balanced it well. He was writer and director of a large cast in a block buster movie. In 2 Marvel and himself wanted it bigger and better, but there aren't many people in the world that are up to writing and directing something like that and that is fine, he found where his limit was and it was below AoU.
Everyone says the Russo's saved the MCU, but what they really brought was a cooperation and Joss is used to having a lot of creative control on his projects. Civil War had 2 writers AND 2 directors, not just one fucking person doing it all. Ant Man did this as well, two writers redoing Wrights script and Reed asked all the cast what their opinions were (which is why we had Hope as a major character, Lily said she could do more).
The thing the MCU has going for it is GOOD cooperation, this isn't writing by committee where a bunch of businessmen pick out plot points and get a writer to follow it, this is Feige managing to find people who care about it and are able to work together.
Hell, the Netflix writers/directors of all four shows are in the same building so they walk into each others rooms a lot to bounce ideas off of each other. Doubts it's completely like that for the movies but it definitely happens. The Russo's went to Reed to see what he was doing with Ant Man and ask how he should be handled.
So ultimately what Joss did was bring together the MCU as a cohesive story but he doesn't really belong in this new era of the MCU where everyone has to share
>>83038850
It's what got Perlmutter out of the movies, praise be Whedon
>>83039270
God no.
One of the best parts about the Russo's is that the characters each have very distinctive voices and every bit of dialogue isn't just a handful of witty one liners that don't mesh with the actual characters.
>>83039270
The Russos' usual writers accomplished everything I liked about Whedon dialogue without its excesses. Besides, Whedon and Marvel had such a bad breakup I don't think either of them want to bring him in just to play script doctor.
>>83039270
I would be ok with him being an 'executive producer' which means they don't do much but pitch ideas/a few changes. I mean, I feel the Russo's took a lot of ques from him. Whedon really made sure the team up moves were a huge deal, then you look at the airport scene and it is full of them. Airport scene is MUCH MUCH better than anything Whedon could have done, but a lot of the grounding was based on The Avengers movies.
Avengers 1 was good and launched the series with a good momentum but that should have been his last contribution
>>83036645
It's hard to say because the marvel movies are such company movies and the avengers are especially so. Marvel has proven its willingness to fire directors who don't tow the line.
That said, I can't imagine whedon doing a better ultron. The studio maybe forced ultrons shitty face, but whedon has never done a non-quippy villain. Even if whedon had been allowed to go "darker" the way he supposedly wanted, ultron still would have been quiptron and therefore shit, because the things that make ultron work are being cold, terrifying and implacable and movie ultron was none of those things
>>83039447
>Whedon and Marvel had such a bad breakup
nah, they just agreed it was better to part ways. They have never said a bad thing about each other. The most that has been said by Marvel is to praise the Russos on taking over for him.
A better question is, would the MCU be screwed if they didn't find a great team of directors like the Russos? How many other directors can handle that many cast members? I'm sure the solo movies would have been find without them, but the huge team ups?
>>83039162
Even the "lowest" forms of entertainment require a certain kind of skill.
>>83039270
I'm not a huge fan of Whedon as a writer. He cares more about his characters having smart mouths than personality. And uses character death as a plot device.
But I agree he should do some minor work on finished scripts. The dialogue he writes is more human and relatable.
>>83039571
>because the things that make ultron work are being cold,
Are you thinking Terminator? Ultron is never cold, he is full of burning rage.
>>83039571
Having Tony make Ultron and not having him quip would miss the point of Ultron. He's not mean to be cold or unfeeling.
Avengers 1 lived up to the hype, AoU did not.
I don't hate him as much as /co/ does, but I'm glad he won't be doing Infinity War. He definitely couldn't have handled it. I actually really like Joss's more serious scenes (all the Vision stuff, Cap and Tony arguing at Clint's house, the dream scenes), but his jokes are really obnoxious most of the time and ruined any tension AoU could've had. I don't understand why he falls back to his wacky comedy so much when he does drama so much better. If he dialed down some of the comedy in AoU, the movie would've been much better.
>>83039614
I doubt that Whedon would have declined to work on the director's cut of AoU if he left on such amicable terms
>>83039663
>He cares more about his characters having smart mouths
I wish that had never been pointed out to me. It kind of ruined watching Firefly.
>>83039688
I don't think Marvel would have offered it to him. The thing with a Directors Cut is that it would act like a retcon and would change the context of the future movies. There haven't been any directors cuts, this is the only movie people wanted one for but he was probably not allowed it.
That said, I doubt he wanted to do it. He was exhausted and just wanted to retire for a couple years. Has he done anything after? Not only was he exhausted and stressed out after AoU but all his feminazi friends threw him under the bus. He may still be waiting that out too.
Am I the only person who likes Whedon's dialogue?
They made the movies more fun and actually FEEL like an actual comic book
>>83038403
His dialogue is one of the worst parts. Every characters sounds like a conduit for Whedon-speak rather than having their own voice. It wasn't so bad in the first but in AoU it was unbearable.
>>83040616
I like it a lot. There's complaints that all characters have the same voice, and while they do all become more quippy they all clearly have defined personalities and beliefs that differentuate each other. He's also good with seeding lots of little bits that pay off later, and 99% of the time I find them genuinely really funny.
>>83040867
He gives them repertoire, which most writers overlook. If someone does something earlier in a story, they should bring it back up. It's what people do every day. At work, someone does said thing, people reference it until it becomes an inside jokes, that inside joke evolves etc, etc.
Language was a funny joke. But I'm glad it lasted one film cause I can't stand co-workers that still do the same joke meme every time they see each other at work. FUUUUUUUUU
>>83041023
>FUUUUUUU
... Tell me about it
>>83036645
I think we can safely say it could've been way worse
Cobsidering how, by his own admission, he was stressed out during the production of AoU I'm surprised it still turned out at least half decent
>>83036645
Glad he's gone. Based Russos are a thousand times better. Captain America Civil War is way better than both Avengers movies.
>>83041466
how would you like to work under Perlmutter? Thanks to him no future directors have to work under the tight jew
>>83036645
I like the first Avengers, The second was a disappointment but not awful. Considering it's Whedon and the only other thing he's done I'v ever liked is Firefly he stepped up his game considerably in comparison to what he usually puts out. I guess that's a compliment. I mean it seems like he is capable of improving, even in Avengers 2 he corrected or tried to correct problems he had in the first Avengers he just made more mistakes and maybe doesn't know how to handle a story with so much going on.
>>83036645
The only decent thing he's ever been involved with was Angel and apparently he barely even worked on that. Avengers 1 after watching it once, really doesn't hold up at all. Avengers 2, I honestly can't even finish it. He's just so goddamn boring and generic that I end up just walking away to do something else. He also doesn't know how to create serious moments.
>>83041924
>He's just so goddamn boring and generic
It* was just so goddamn generic and boring
>>83041907
>>83041924
all this /tv/.. I guess that's ok since he branches both. But his X-men comic run was really good, he showed an understanding of the characters that morrison lacked. And finally took them back to space, space is where I love my X-men, their best stories are there.
Also, he did a good run of Runaways, not quite as good as BKV but pretty damned great. /co/ hates both those authors so I don't get how they like Runaways
>>83036645
Avengers worked for what it needed to be, and I think Whedon was a good choice to get that off the ground since the franchise was just picking up at that point. However, he dropped the ball on AoU and I'm glad he's gone. Whedon works better on his own solo projects and is too up his own ass about his brilliance that he clearly didn't want to cooperate or take into consideration what the ongoing franchise needed or what the fans wanted out of the movie.
A lot of people blame it on executive meddling, but a franchise this huge needs consistency and a common goal. The Avengers movies especially are supposed to be the cornerstone of the MCU, tying together all the loose threads and plotlines and character arcs and merge them together for a bigger story. Whedon outright ignored what happened between the two Avengers movies. TWS was supposed to be huge in changing the MCU, and AoU did the bare minimum in acknowledging it happened at all. Probably because of his hateboner for Bucky, which is kind of ironic because Bucky is the kind of character he'd love if he were a chick.
CW did a pretty good job at catching Whedon's fumble and acknowledging the inconsistency of how the ending of IM3 wasn't even addressed in AoU, and the consequences it left with Tony and Pepper's relationship and having it actually matter in the storyline. Collaborative directors and writers are essential to the MCU now, and Whedon doesn't fit into that.
>>83039320
>In 2 Marvel and himself wanted it bigger and better
He actually wanted it smaller at first but it just got bigger because that's how it works.
Avengers was shit, people refuse to see due to the hype/marketing it has had
AOU is the biggest piece of shit capeshit ever produced, it's bad as Elektra
>>83042295
I don't buy the "executive meddling" excuse. I highly doubt any executives asked him to have everyone fuck around in a barn for 30 minutes, or give Ultron teeth, or shoehorn in half baked bible references, or have Black Widow hot for Hulk dick, and so on.
>>83042422
In point of fact, execs told him to get rid of the thor pond thing and the farm thing. And yet Whedon still had the freedom to leave his bullshit in.
>>83042421
>Avengers was shit,
Yeah it must be shit if it's consistently in the top 5 of /co/'s MCU movie list...
>>83042562
Because /co/ is so well known for its amazing taste. The board likes MCU Thor, thats enough to ignore any opinion they ever have on movies.
>>83042520
The fact that he keeps moping about how everything he makes is shit makes me think that Whedon keeps trying to one-up himself all the time and not realizing that's basically impossible until the end when he actually has to finish the project. I don't think he realized the collaboration part of all this though.
>>83042562
>MCU movie list
>implying that's any sign of quality
>>83042520
Execs wanted pond, not farm. His far BW and Hulk shit overshadows everything, but the Cap-Tony stuff was a perfect setup to civil war
>>83036645
I loved both of the Avengers movies. I thought the second was even better than the first. I thought Civil War was a bland mess with very poor characterizations and it made me really doubt the Russo's ability to handle Infinity War.
I'm glad Joss is gone because the entire experience sounded pretty stressful for him, and I'm looking forward to more creator owned work from him.
>>83039441
What are you on? I thought each of Whedon's characters had their own unique voice, and even their own unique sense of humor that clearly differentiated them from each other. The Russo's dialogue feels more interchangable and bland by comparison for the most part.
>>83040867
>>83041023
One of the thing Whedon's dialogue did really well was sell how close and friendly the Avengers have become. People complain about the quips but the way they joke around with each other is exactly how a group of friends actually act, or at least my friends I suppose.
>>83042766
The Cap-Tony setup was actually just coincidental according to Markus and McFeely. Just happened to work out.
>>83038850
I don't know. A lot of the scenes he went on the record for fighting to keep in the movie are the ones I think we're the weakest.
The barn scene was shit.
>>83042903
>coincidental
yet it couldn't have happened without the two avengers movies, according to them their interactions didn't matter?
that's bullshit. They lifted heavily from Whedon's interactions in AoU, that was the start of the characterizations
>>83042903
>>83043114
From everything I've heard Marvel had no plans to do Civil War until they saw the dailies for the brief fight between Cap and Tony in Age of Ultron.
>>83042766
They wanted the pond and threatened to cut the farm (which already got a bit neutered because of execs) and the dream sequences Wanda gives the team if he didn't do it. So Joss filmed a 15 minute side plot for the pond that the studio ended up cutting out. Additionally to make things more difficult, the Studio only gave Joss a day to film each of the dream scenes, meaning he had to cut content from them in order to have enough time to set up and film each of them.
>>83043097
>The barn scene was shit.
agreed, but there needed to be a cool down scene, a regrouping scene. Hawkeye needed a scene to make him a person, and tony-cap had to have a scene. This allowed it. Some of it SHOULD have been cut, but there needed to be a breather
>>83043217
And when Feige heard the announcement for Batman V Superman.
>>83043217
so you are saying Joss was the one making all the tie ins to the other future movies and the studio was telling him not to? Get fucked you shill
>>83042844
wow
you couldn't be more a cuck
pathetic
>>83043260
The farm scene was also hurt because Joss had to rewrite it to accommodate the Thor pond story which then ended up getting mostly cut.
>>83043320
That was a big part too. It was that sort of one-two punch that made them go "I think we can pull this off!" Unfortunately I think the MCU needed one more film to properly set up things before they could actually do Civil War. Tony's sudden change from his staunch anti-Government stance to waving the flag for the Accords really makes no sense, same with Widow after that scene she had in front of the Congressional Panel in Winter Soldier.
>>83043393
Where did I say that? I said the studio was forcing in plot points to tie into future movies even when they didn't fit within the movie.
I agree that the first Avengers movie lived up to the expectations, but let's be real, a lot of that's due to the very low expectations most of us had, and were happy enough to just see them all together on the screen. I went in with 0 hope of it being good, and ended up thinking it was great. On the second watch though... Jesus. The flaws shone through. Turned it off after 30 minutes or so.
I'm pleased with what he did, I guess, but I'm eternally grateful that he won't have anything more to do with it.
>>83043547
There will be future tie-ins. The thing here is that Whedon simply didn't have the skills and/or couldn't compromise properly with the studio to create a good and cohesive way to tie things up.
>>83043547
>Tony's sudden change from his staunch anti-Government stance to waving the flag for the Accords really makes no sense, same with Widow after that scene she had in front of the Congressional Panel in Winter Soldier.
Actually Tony was waving back and forth since Avengers 1.
>never do it again
>blow up me
>I'm going to get you
>I'm going back to avengers
>I don't know what I'm doing but I have to save the world
>fuck me.....
>This needs to stop
Cap only changed for his bud buddy
>>83043393
>>83042766
Execs wanted the Scarlet Witch vision with Heimdall, they didn't care about the rest.
>>83043692
The issue is that Marvel had no clue what they were doing after Age of Ultron. They wanted him to create a new storyline, while he was already filming the movie, that would remove a main character from the group so that they could go off on their own side plot that is not at all related to this movie, in order to vaguely set up future movies without having any specifics of that movie. I don't know about you but arguing against something like that is totally reasonable. He did it anyways and even filmed a huge 15 minute storyline that introduced new elements of mythology to the MCU but it freaked out test audiences so they cut all but 1 minute of it. If you want to make a change like that do it during the writing process, not while they're already filming the movie.
>>83043882
Tony Stark had a strong record of not trusting big government bureaucracies throughout the movies and has been established as not wanting the government to have control over him or his tech. Now at the flip of a switch is ready to give all control over himself and The Avengers to a UN Panel. It's such a drastic change of heart that comes out of nowhere with no real sense or motive behind it. People accept it because everyone already expected him to be for it because of the comic, but the actual character in the movies is not one who would have made that decision.
The Hulk and Widow pairing is stupid as fuck and came out of nowhere, so I can't say I'll miss him.
>>83044034
>The issue is that Marvel had no clue what they were doing after Age of Ultron.
They're winging it the entire time. Why else would the Tesseract suddenly be the Space Gem instead of just the MCU's version of the cosmic cube?
>>83036645
Maybe the casting of James Spader as Ultron.
>>83044088
I loved the retcon with the scepter turning into an infinity gem. I think that might've been the first instance that kind of showed that they're just kind of making this shit up as they go along.
>>83044046
It was set up pretty clearly in The Avengers. Pay attention to how their relationship develops in it next time you watch it. Additionally, the big payoff to their relationship was changed by the studio. When Banner shows up to help Widow escape, she tries to convince him they need the Hulk but he's scared too hulk out after what happened in South Africa and just wants to run away with her. Instead of pushing him down the shaft she was supposed to tell him him that she was lying about how she felt about him, that she's a spy and it's her job, that she was just trying to better control the Hulk. Banner gets so hurt by this that he ends up Hulking out. That's why at the end Hulk turns off the screen when she's talking to him in the quinjet. However execs didn't think it was very 'hero-like' of Widow and changed it.
>>83044034
>People accept it because everyone already expected him to be for it because of the comic, but the actual character in the movies is not one who would have made that decision
You think any of these people read the comic? No, the bought his deliverance of the role. He had PTSD since IM3 and he SOLD it in CW.
It was a tacked on story, and that is why they needed RDJ to pull out his A card, not his shit he did in AoU
>>83044090
Fuck you, Spader was GOAT. If it was based off Pym;s brain everyone would be shitting their pants
>>83044288
People didn't have to read the comics. The general public was pretty aware of it due to Marvel's PR at the time. Lots of my non-comic friends knew Stark was going to be pro-whatever, and the media lead-up to the film's release sort of reinforced that.
I will admit RDJ delivered an tremendous performance and I loved him in it.
He was good for what he did, namely mindless spectacle with a lot of witty banter.
But when it came to telling an actual story, he really sucked at doing that. God, that entire Ultron thing was bursting with missed opportunities and wasted potential. Makes me sick.
Since the stakes got higher and the characters should be more than just clever mouthpieces, I'm glad he's been replaced by the Fantastic Four (The Russos, McFeely & Marcus).
Those guys have a better grasp of balancing drama and humor.
>>83044349
dude what I was saying was that I love Spader's performance as Ultron.
how did you infer that I hated it.
I cannot un-imagine Spader's voice for Ultron.
>>83044445
sorry, nuances get lost in text. His voice was great, but yeah, many lost opportunities. The world now things he's terminator...
>>83039270
I would like Whedon/his team to make a pass on the big, cornball fight in IW. I loved the action in Civil War, and I think it's clear that the Russo's have a knack for gritty hand-to-hand fights with great emotion behind it, but Whedon can really bring something fun to a big, pop-corn eating final battle. If they relegated his habits, I think he could've made a better Airport battle than the one the Russo's made.
>>83044715
I have to admit, he has some pretty good ideas on how some parts of the fight should go but when it all comes together, it doesn't really work as well.
>>83036645
>Did you like his contributions to the MCU or are you glad he's gone?
both
>>83042421
>AOU is the biggest piece of shit capeshit ever produced
Not even in the worst 10.
>>83036645
Avengers 1 was good but he clearly had nothing left to give after that. AOU is almost a remake in some parts as a result. So I'm glad he's gone.
>>83042422
>>83042520
Anyone who thinks removing the farm would make the movie better and not worse has no idea what they're talking about.
It's a necessary break between long action sequences and ties all of the character arcs to a central theme (settling down and starting a family). You might think it was done poorly, but it would have been much worse if it wasn't there at all.
>>83036831
>The second one was shit, maybe because of him.
QS death, Hulk/Widow relationship all his fault.
Thor/Infinity stones scenes, Quiptron, Ultron not related to Pym those were Marvel/Executives fault.
So I guess they both shared responsabilities, IMO AoU is not as bad as Thor or IM last movies.
>>83042844
Yeeea nah.
I got more sense of friendship in the 30 sec exchange between Barton and Natasha at the airport in CW than in both Avengers movies.
>>83044715
>I think he could've made a better Airport battle than the one the Russo's made.
I really doubt that
For starters, we would never see Giant-Man, since the Russos had to fight to put him in.
He would also have them make up at the end.
>>83038850
Wheddon can't do story. The Story from Avengers was a Feige/Studio stuff pitched to Zak Penn, who wrote the original screen play. They followed penn's basic frame work, of Loki(and red skull) showing up, stealing the cube and going about assaulting SHIELD to unleash an army.
AoU is just far far to convoluted. Wheddon needs someone else's work to latch on to to make things good. Buffy wasn't his idea, people like his run of x-men, but he sure didnt create those characters. I think Wheddon needs another writer to anchor him, not let him run around winking at the audience and flipping off "normal conventions"
>>83045074
>Quiptron
I can see the other two being their fault but how was this their fault?
>>83045245
>For starters, we would never see Giant-Man, since the Russos had to fight to put him in.
Whedon had to fight for the twins. I don't see why he wouldn't fight for Giant-Man.
>>83044920
It was done poorly and that entire plot thread with the nightmares, and their self doubts because of them was executed horribly.
No one is asking for the complete removal of a cool down when they refer to the barn being cut. It's just a pointless scene that waste time and accomplishes nothing worth a damn.
>>83045245
>He would also have them make up at the end.
You mean like they basically did?
The original, less-happy ending of AoU was changed because execs didn't like it.
I have a VERY strong feeling that Cap rescuing everyone from the raft at the end and making up with Tony were not in CW's original ending.
>>83045245
>since the Russos had to fight to put him in.
no, stop.
The Russos went and talked to Peyton Reed and talked about what was good to use and not to use for civil war. They knew his inclusion would boost his popularity but didn't want to take away from Antman and Wasp. There was talk of Wasp being in CW but was cut cause her character needed more development before IW where she is going to be a major player.
>>83045419
>It's just a pointless scene that waste time and accomplishes nothing worth a damn.
But it's not pointless, and it does tie everything together.
>>83045395
My point is that Giant-Man was never originally in the airport fight. So we might not have seen him in the movie.
Likewise I don't even think we would've gotten Spidey too without the Russo being very direct in saying they needed him in the movie
>>83040616
Not all comic books have stupid, campy dialogue though. In fact, most don't.
>>83045395
Cause he didnt fight for giant man in avengers. Who had potential to appear. Wheddon fought for another girl to appear in the movie and a character to kill off a man. Cause Wheddon is an anti-feminist who perpetuates the disposability of men in battle.
>>83045483
I have a source that directly confirms what I just said
>Here's what Stephen McFeely had to say.
>"The brothers [directors Joe and Anthony Russo] had to fight for it. They had to go to the studio and say, 'No it's not silly, it's cool.' It's a comic book movie! In the grounded Winter Soldier, it's Three Days of the Condor except in the middle there's a talking robot that tells you HYDRA has been there the whole time. And a lot of people went, 'That's a little much.' No, it's a comic book movie! That's okay. Same thing here, except it's Giant-Man."
http://movieweb.com/captain-america-civil-war-giant-man-cameo/
>>83045500
According to interviews Giant-Man was something they wanted to do from the beginning, but they kept going back and forth whether or not it'd take away from having that be a big moment in his solo film. They didn't want to step on toes with using Giant-Man, but they said that the airport fight needed him for its conclusion so they ended up using it in the end.
>>83040616
Yeah, a shitty Bendis comic book.
>>83045516
What the fuck are you talking about?
Giant-Man never had the potential to appear in either Ant-Man movie.
>Wheddon fought for another girl to appear in the movie and a character to kill off a man.
This has nothing to do with men being disposable, and was purely to make the demographics of the cast more balanced.
>>83045622
*Avengers movie
>>83045451
I personally think CW should have had the credits rolled right after Steve and Tony part ways, when the scene cuts to black.
The after credits scene should have been Cap writing a letter and then breaking out his buddies on the raft.
But that's just my shitty ass. I ain't no director.
>>83045571
If they have Wasp go huge in Antman And The Wasp, it would be able to borrow the same type of exciting moment. It was pretty neat in civil war, glad they did it. I think Peyton Reed will have enough to work with in his movie.
>>83045273
>AoU is just far far to convoluted.
agree
Wheddon needs someone else's work to latch on to to make things good. Buffy wasn't his idea, people like his run of x-men, but he sure didnt create those characters. I think Wheddon needs another writer to anchor him,
probably would be a good thing in a big movie, but not on something like a novel or a small series. Dr Horrible was GREAT because it had nothing tied to him, he was free to do whateverthefuckhewantedtodo
I'm happy Nathon Fillion will join as Wonderman
>>83045516
No, he just killed of QS because he thinks ~*shocking deaths*~ are the only way to have emotional impact on the story and they wouldn't let him kill off anyone more important.
>>83045622
Ant-Man and Wasp were in some super early draft of the first Avengers movie
>>83045589
Bendis? The comic book writer?
>>83045714
Yes, Bendis. The comic book writer.
>>83045711
And they were put off-limits bacuse of Reed. Whedon had no say in the matter.
He wanted Pym creating Ultron to be the main plot of the first Avengers movie, but he wasn't allowed to.
>>83045711
Too bad the Ant-Man movie got so severely delayed and made it impossible, but I like what we ended up with in the end.
>>83045567
how does that change anything that I said? I said they talked to the director of Ant Man on how to do Ant Man
>>83045752
Sorry, Wright, not Reed.
>>83045749
Oh! That Bendis? Really? He reminds you of him?
>>83044715
>hand-to-hand fights with great emotion behind it, but Whedon can really bring something fun to a big, pop-corn eating final battle
Compare the final Ultron battle with, shit, anything in Civil War. No, I'm glad Whedon isn't doing the action in these movies anymore.
>>83045395
Of course he fought for the twins, his fetish for broken powerful girls and their protective brother demands it.
Whendon brought us Quickslav and immediately killed him for some cheap emotional shock value.
Fuck him.
>>83045779
>>83045483
>since the Russos had to fight to put him in.
>no, stop.
>>83045567
>Here's what Stephen McFeely had to say.
>"The brothers [directors Joe and Anthony Russo] had to fight for it. They had to go to the studio and say, 'No it's not silly, it's cool.'
>>83045752
no it was wright on is fucking high horse for 12 years, fuck him and fuck the movie he wanted to make. Reed is a real fan of the characters and he made Ant Man a character that the world now love. Also, based Feige and casting get Paul Rudd to not only take the role but repair the script and make it workable. Thank you based ants
>>83045622
Wheddon wanted Wasp in avengers. If Scarlett Johassen passed on disney's multi picture contract, they were going to use Wasp in Avengers mostly in BW's place, and potentially Hank Pym would appear as well. Wheddon only cared about Wasp. Saying Giant-man was never going to appear is only accurate once wheddon joined.
There is storyboards out there of Wasp appearing in a 7 man team avengers. As they weren't sure if she would or would not appear, maybe they'd have both wasp and BW, but Wheddon never gave a shit about Giant-man.
>>83045711
And they were removed, because Edgar Wright was not even ready, Antman suffered so many setbacks and problems, I'm surprised that turned out to be a good and succesful movie
>>83045487
The idea isn't pointless, the scene was.
Ultron, an artificial intelligence mass replicating itself, is out there along with a mind bending unstable enhanced girl and her incestuous super fast twin brother, and Cap and Tony are chopping wood to hamfistedly illustrate the tension building between them.
Who reads the script, shoots those scenes and doesn't ask what the fuck they're even doing at that point?
The heroes hauling up and recuperating in an isolated, tech free location due to the villain's capabilities makes perfect sense, but what they're shown doing during that period has to add up or it just clashes with everything else earlier established.
I don't feel the security in settling down, oh no, I feel the stupidity of the heroes settling in instead. The underlining message of how supportive Clint's family is in a dire situation compared to the brewing instability within the Avengers team is lost due to the absurdity of their interactions.
And don't say that's the point because of Wanda's mindfuckery. That's not gonna fly.Temporary psychosis only excuses how retarded a situation feels so far.
This is a lot of generous hyperbole to make a point but as an example American Psycho 1 and 2, yes there's a 2, have more or less the same general idea of a psychologically unstable homicidal sociopath getting their kicks and getting away with it but look how differently they're handled and the reception as a result.
As a director you can't just do whatever with an idea and hope the audience smooths it out for you.
Sometimes you have to take a step back and LITERALLY FUCK YOUR OWN FACE!
>>83046051
I'm disappointed we haven't gotten Wasp earlier, but I'm also glad Whedon didn't touch her. As big of a fan he is of female characters, everything he does with them is awful.
>>83046051
He couldn't have Ant-Man or Giant-Man if he wanted to. Wasp was only a possibility because she wasn't a main character in Wright's movie.
>>83045886
Rumor is Fox and Marvel had a deal, Fox gets to use Quicksilver and Marvel gets Scarlet Withc.
>>83045779
Going by previous interviews from directors, such as Gunn and Russos, the studios don't really give much notes on the story. The Directors are basically given complete freedom to do what they want between the essential signposts the studios place down.
Judging by the comment giving by McFeely, Giant-Man wasn't one of the key moments the studios wanted. It was something the Russos wanted to put in. Because why would the studio contest their own idea of something they wanted to put in anyway?
Whedon's version of the Civil War could've been without Giant-Man, which was my original point.
You said
>>since the Russos had to fight to put him in.
>no, stop.
But then I showed you that the Russos did have to fight to get him in.
Both.
I liked the two Avengers, but that's it.
>>83036645
Yes and Yes.
Should've left after the first avengers, i recall interviews where he said it was tiring as fuck. Stil a better record than Snyder in the dceu and it would've been way better if Marvel just gave him another project besides AoU.
And yes, he was a pussy for the twitter shit. Goddamnit man, just block them.
>>83046159
She wasn't even a character in Wright's movie. Janet/Wasp did not appear at all in Wright's script. All that stuff in the movie was added by Reed/Rudd.
>>83046175
>no purlmutter
Wheddon convinced Disney to get rid of him
>>83046194
>Should've left after the first avengers, i recall interviews where he said it was tiring as fuck.
That, or he should have brought someone else on to work with him, but I don't know if he really does that. He kind of seems like he has to have everything the way he wants it, so he takes on too much work.
Now we're transitioning to a 2 director an 2 writer team hat have already shown themselves to make good movies together, so I think the burden will be more split, which will be better for everyone.
>>83046139
>everything he does with them is awful.
I'm only glad because he didn't get to cast Summer Glau, she's a damn curse to everything she touches.
>>83046276
I thought that was Feige.
>>83046276
From a certain point of view.
Feige convinced Disney that AoU's under-performance was a result of Perlmutter's meddling, and so they gave Feige full control.
I'm still struggling to understand if AoU was him trying to do his job with meddling, or if it was a salvage job from the studio.
He shot way too much to cut out and was forced to rewrite a lot on the day, but that could be because he's a diva, or because he was getting new instructions from the execs every morning. Also, ScarJo and Hemsworth's wife had a baby recently and he was forced by the studio to include them as much as he could, which ended up with both of them getting little time and to be separated from the group at different points.
I'm even willing to assume that all the out-of-place quips were mandated by the execs to not make it a bad experience to kids. Fine.
Either way it's clear that most of the cast didn't enjoy the experience as much as CW, but that could be to either reason.
Regardless, I think he has some great ideas that didn't translate well. He should find a partner director/writer to help balance his ideas.
>I liked the idea of the farm/dream scenes
>I liked the idea of the Nat/Bruce romance
>I liked the idea of offing Quicksilver to have some consequences
But some of those were very badly implemented. I wouldn't remove any of those, but I'd rewrite them to have the proper impact they should have. I think Johannesburg and Seoul should've been merged into one scene, and have Tony hold the Hulk while the others got the cradle. That extra time would've allowed the bath/farm to breathe more.
His whole cocky, somewhat pretentious way of writing references was great in the first one because the movie concept alone was so unique and hype that having every character basically say "look how great I am" at every line felt appropriate in that whole celebration of a movie. But the second one should've inserted more doubts into the characters and he didn't.
Say what you will, being over his head, at least he owned it and didn't blame anyone else for the movie publicly and didn't bitch. I respect him for that. It could've been a LOT worse.
>>83046423
Feige probably convinced Iger that the cast was getting annoyed with the shitty schedule/mood that the execs put Whedon in and that that could come to bite them in the ass if it were to continue.
He basically convinced Iger that spending a bit more now would repay itself in the future with longer contracts.
>>83044445
aside too many quips and him getting his shit pushed in a bit to many times, I loved Spadertron.
I can see them bringing him back for a more serious toned role.
>>83039671
Well, it didn't work.
>>83046463
Wheddon said in the audio commentary he shot stuff he didn't need and it was frustrating. That he got more inventive and creative playing with the sets and actors and getting angles and blah blah, stuff he didn't need. He said he'll never do that again. He will only shoot what he wants.
So, all the deleted stuff, a lot of it he didnt want. I think Wheddon held too heavy of a burden to make a movie that was tonally similar to AoU.
I think a real simple fix to AoU is, cut nick fury out. No helicarrier at the end, Maria Hill, anyone else, scrambling to save people, but in the end lots of people die. The avengers don't bro out over thor's hammer, it's sad, it's a somber day, they failed. I think Disney pushed to have the happy ending and have things be light. Wheddon admits he didn't set a tone for the hulkbuster fight and ended up getting laughs and they left it that way...... I think the studio had no desire to change the tone of the film at all, figuring, it's for kids.
>>83046721
The voice as fantastic, it was the personality the one that sucked
>>83046723
They should've made his quips darker and more aggressive, instead of the same flavour as Tony/Cap/Thor/Nat/Everyone else. They should've made him really mean and say what even Stark wouldn't dare. His whole jab at Cap being nothing without a war was great, but it came in the middle of a list of quips and had no impact.
>>83046788
I think that's him trying to not commit career suicide and owning up to something out of his control, despite him not being too controlled himself. Seoul + Johannesburg all reek of executive meddling.
But I don't think the movie is that bad, it's just that it doesn't hold up on a second watch, mostly. We've seen it happen so much worse, and at least it made CW seem so much better by comparison and by solving a lot of its problems. Also it got Iger to restructure it all and phase 3 seems SO much better.
Either way he's owned up to it and didn't blame it on anyone else, which is actually a cool thing of him to do. I respect that.
>>83036645
I like his writing style. He gets that there's no such thing as a character for whom humor is totally inappropriate, or a scene where the "tone" would somehow be demolished by a joke. Age of Ultron's story was super fucking weak, though, despite the comedy being as good as that of the first movie.
I wish he stayed in the MCU, but made contributions to other people's scripts, instead of doing his own.
>>83036645
First one was god-tier.
Second one was good grounds to can his ass and look for somebody new.
>>83047033
I think they should have made some callbacks to at least the first Iron Man films. You know maybe do something with "The weapon you only have to fire once." line.
>>83047192
Yeah, that'd be pretty neat.
>that's how dad did it.
>>83036645
Glad he's gone, his work was so generic they could have given it to anyone. He was surrounded by talent, given a blank check. Hell, He could have done whatever and he made every safe choice in one and two he could. Civil War was dialogue wise what Avengers would have been without Whedon. Think how much better those movies would have been without a hundred year old super soldier and a genius talking like a pair of valley girls.
>>83045419
man, talk about a farm scene done right though.
>>83044920
>>83044920
You're forgetting Option 3: write something that isn't shit instead.
>>83036645
both
>>83044715
I don't know. What I didn't like about AoU's final battle was that it turned into meshed mook smashing. That scene where they're all fighitng around the button is ridiculously cluttered. I feel that his group action scenes tend to have everyone fighting each other or move from one fight to another by the second. The airport fight had decent focus on individual characters fighting each other.
>>83036645
>Did you like his contributions to the MCU or are you glad he's gone?
both
>>83049903
Exactly why I posted it
Our heroes barely escaped from an embarrassing defeat. In their absence, the villain's empire grows. But so do the Turtles. We get to understand them more from these scenes, they get to understand each other in a deeper way and through that, they become stronger as individuals and as a team.
You got none of that in Ultron. You got the IDEA of that's what he was going for, but Whedon never executes it right. It never feels like anyone really grew from the downtime as Tony goes right back into doing what caused the mess in the first place and the rest of the team isn't seeing eye to eye in it when they confront him.
So what the hell was the barn scene for? Was it for us? Hell no, we already seen these characters in various other movies, we know their deal, and we already seen them struggle trying to be an actual a team together in the last one. So what was the point of this scene?
>>83054941
I strongly disagree. It gave us more insight into all of their characters, except Thor.
>>83046423
I need to see the lightsaber fight between Feige and Perlmutter
>>83036645
Glad he's gone. I wouldn't have watched Civil War if I had seen Age of Ultron before it. I saw it today and it was awful. Witty, self-aware villain. Terrible ship between Black Widow and Hulk. Scarlet Witch and the Hulk Buster fight were about the only redeeming qualities.
The Russos do a much, MUCH better job.
>>83036645
>Did you like his contributions to the MCU or are you glad he's gone?
Both
First Avengers was good and I still enjoy it, second one had some good parts in it and I'm glad he was able to bring Scarlet Witch and Vision in but on the whole it was a big step down, especially coming off of The Winter Soldier. Overall I think the things he did were good for the MCU overall but it's time for him to move on.
>>83036945
This.
He's an idea man who can offer alot to someone else's work, but when you let him direct he has too many themes, ideas and stories he wants to make work and has trouble cutting the fat.
>Avengers
Good
>Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Ehhh
>Age of Ultron
Ugh
Was Agent Carter one of his things?
>>83045326
Because there should be a scene that would properly shown that Ultron is partially based on Tony's personality.
Which is why Ultron have some personality quirks of Stark.
>>83036945
>Similar to JJ Abrams with Star Wars
Technically, JJ is not directing other Star Wars movies, because he know that this way worked for Original Trilogy, unlike Prequels, which were all directed by Lucas.
That and OT times having people that would tell Lucas when ideas are shit, while PT was with people that would agree to all ideas of Giorgio.
>>83064584
Yea, if he'd just gone with... say the sentient armor from IM3 being the first biddy that Ultron snagged, then I'd would've been an easy sell on Quiptron actually being based off Tony's personality. And then we get even more guilt for CW out of him because he's have the weight of thinking that Ultron was just acting out his own paranoid worries to the extreme; like a sorry of dark mirror.
But, the average moviegoer didn't give any real fucks about little things like that. Which is, essentially why Whedon could be lazy like that.
Both, which is usually how I feel about Whedon. He tends to do a good job at the start, but the longer he remains on a project, the more he runs it into the ground.
>>83036891
>but you could tell in Ultron he didn't care anymore
I think it's more of the fact that he cared TOO MUCH. If anything he was micro-managing every little bit of the film to the point that it felt like it couldn't even breathe because of how much it bought its plot instead of telling the audience why it even mattered.
I still think Whedon should do Infinity War.
He's great with the avengers group and makes bigger scale fight scenes, the Russo can only do gritty pedestrian fight scenes, not appropriate for the scale of Infinity War
>>83066224
I am so glad you don't get to make any decisions
>>83036645
>Thor and Loki: an epic tale of brotherly love pursued blindly to the point of self-destruction against a Shakespearean backdrop. At every turn, Thor can't let go of his feelings for his family, despite understanding the destruction it's causing.
Avengers I
"He's my brother!"
"He killed a lot of people!"
"He's adopted!"
*cue laugh track*
Fuck Joss Whedon
>>83036645
Happy he was there, happy that he's doing something else now - mostly on his behalf, as doing the same thing for too long will kill ones creative drive.
Looking forwards to his next project.
>>83036645
I liked his contributions, including AOU, but I think it's good he stepped out when he did. Based Russos know the direction the MCU needs to head.
>>83068632
Naw man, the first Avengers was campy and silly and so full of itself it was great. So many "Fuck Yeah" moments. The whole 'this will never work, your plan is stupid, OH SHIT IT WORKS" meta-narrative where every character is cocky for just being around is great in the context it was made at the time.
Like a little golden age all in one movie. He should've changed the tune for the second one, though, and he didn't.
I'm glad he was around and became big enough that his departure cause some greater changes for the future.
Should have never been brought in in the first place. The Russos should have directed the Avengers movies. And the Iron Man movies except for the first one. And the Thor movies, but the Thor scripts are so bad I don't know if even they could have saved those shit heaps.
