"I'm sorry about Rhodey. He was a real stand-up guy."
Why does he wear the mask ?
Is there a transcript of everything Clint says in that scene? It's a great little rant.
>"Do you remember Peggy's last words, Steve? Because she sure didn't."
>"What have Wanda and Rhodeys spine in common? - Both got smashed by Vision"
>>83033958
>The futurist, gentlemen! The futurist is here! He sees all! He knows what's best for you, whether you like it or not.
>Give me a break, Barton. I had no idea they'd put you here. Come on.
>Yeah, well you knew they'd put us somewhere, Tony.
>Yeah, but not some super-max floating ocean pokey. You know, this place is for maniacs. This is a place for-
>Criminals. Criminals, Tony. I think that's the word you're looking for. Right? It didn't used to mean me, or Sam, or Wanda, but here we are.
>Because you broke the law.
>Yeah.
>I didn't make you.
>Lalalalalala.
>You read it, you broke it.
>Lalalalalala.
>Alright. You're all grown up, you've got a wife and kids. I don't understand, why didn't you think of them before you chose the wrong side?
>You gotta watch your back around this guy! There's a chance he's gonna break it.
>>83034260
>It didn't used to mean me, or Sam, or Wanda
It literally did. Being a vigilante has been illegal since before any of them were born.
>>83034260
Clint sounds actually like a 15years old butthurt faggot kek
>"Well, Nat, I hope you at least made your kids proud."
>>83034601
I agree, it's like when you have a discussion with someone on a forum and you're making valid points and they're just like:
>you
>not being a cuck
kek
>>83034305
Technically, Clint was working with a government agency until it turned out to be secretly evil. Wanda and Sam both joined after it got taken down, but the Avengers being a vestige of Shield might have been enough to keep them from being illegal until the Accords came along.
>>83034601
>>83034641
Knowing that your actions will have consequences and agreeing that the consequences are fair are two separate things. Clint got into this to stop Zemo from activating a team of Cap-level assassins, and someone he used to work with got him throw in uberjail for it.
>>83034784
Being formed by SHIELD doesn't mean it's not super illegal for the Avengers to go around violating international laws long after SHIELD was dissolved.
And whether Clint was justified in being angry is one thing, but the shit he's saying is like that of a 13 year-old. He fucking made a joke about Tony's best friend being crippled, less than a day after it happened.
>>83034601
I think that was the point, but most people sided with him anyway.
>>83034863
>le joke
Clint doesnt know about Rhodes. Only Falcon was there to witness WM's accident.
>>83034978
Falcon is right there with Clint. You think he wouldn't tell him?
And if it wasn't intentional, that's a major coincidence.
>>83034978
And he probably didn't know how bad it was, or that he specifically broke his back. He couldn't have told everyone else in the jail.
>>83034863
It was super illegal even while they were with shield. The MCU seems to ignore laws except when it is dramatically convenient not to.
In any case, I wouldn't call what they were doing vigilantism - they weren't beating up muggers or rapists. And they weren't being thrown in jail for breaking international law - they were being thrown in jail for demonstrating that they were neither willing to play ball with the accords nor retire quietly; and since Ross couldn't control them he threw them in a prison designed to hold superhumans.
Played 18, shot 18. Just can't seem to miss.
>"Wanda, I'd say that I consider you family, but being in your family has too high of a mortality rate."
>Tell Pepper I said hi.
>>83035060
Falcon saw him fall, but he wouldn't have been around for the diagnosis. "Broken back" would have to be a very lucky guess.
My guess was that the writers just wanted to have him say something to get a guilty reaction from Tony, and so eschewed the usual "There's a chance he's gonna stab it" for something more topical
>>83035156
>He couldn't have told everyone else in the jail.
Why not? They're all in the same room together, and they have nothing to do but sleep and talk to each other.
>And they weren't being thrown in jail for breaking international law - they were being thrown in jail for demonstrating that they were neither willing to play ball with the accords nor retire quietly
So, for breaking the law.
>>83034869
probably people who never had any responsibilties either
>>83035218
*for breaking international law
>>83035263
Lalalalalala
>>83035176
"Wanda, you're only living relative might be a creepy otherworldly entity who wrote a very, very naughty book."
>Hey Wanda, I didn't know your father made a shield for Cap too.
>>83035218
See >>83035215. He couldn't have told everyone else in jail because he couldn't have known anything more than "War Machine was hurt."
As far as whether or not it was actually illegal, the ratification of the accords was interrupted by a bombing, and Steve was still being offered a chance to sign a day before this all went down. I highly doubt we're ever going to any future exposition on the confirmation process of the accords, though, so this is probably a stupid thing to argue about.
>people are actually defending Clint for bringing up Rhodes' paralysis
it's one thing to be a capfag and there's this.
>>83035459
the proper term for betrayal is being shot in the back. the only expression that involves breaking backs is the one about the camel and it doesn't apply to the context of what Clint is saying.
>>83034260
I thought he was saying Law Law Law Law not Lalala
>>83035786
It was both at the same time.
>>83034869
I can't see why. He's a grown man with a wife and kids and he knew there would be consequences yet he still says lalalala when hearing stuff he doesn't wanna hear? He's acting like he's exempt from punishment and pissed nobody is pulling strings for them.
>>83035551
If I didn't know any better I'd think he was drunk in that scene by the way he was acting. He's acting like one of those civilians butthurt at avengers collateral damage.
>>83035929
Because they're being throw in jail for trying to save the world after Iron Man instigated the fight.
>>83036242
>for trying to save the world
from what?
>>83036242
Team Cap threw the first punch.
Iron Man didn't want to fight if it could be avoided. It was perfectly reasonable from his POV to think Bucky was lying, and he only had a short time window to bring Cap & co. in peacefully before Ross went after them with lethal force.
Also, it turns out that Zemo never intended to use the super soldiers anyway. Both sides were being played: Team Tony was fooled into thinking Bucky was guilty, and Team Cap was fooled into having a false sense of urgency so they couldn't talk it out.
>>83036338
Russian supersoldiers. Did you even watch the movie.
>but Zeno killed them
No one had anyway of predicting that outcome. The supersoldiers were a serious threat.
>>83035438
> Cap is protective of Wanda
> But it's Wanda who protects Cap
POTTERY
>>83036345
He'd have to be playing blind to ignore something was amiss when a pulse generator knocked down the power grid and the psychologist brought to interrogate Bucky mysteriously vanished during the chaos.
>>83036458
cap was going to fly from siberia to germany on a helicopter. even with a jet they're behind zemo by hours. bucky himself says they're too late
>but they're in a hurry to stop zemo
Cap just really didn't want to turn Bucky in
>>83034638
What?
>>83036458
>No one had anyway of predicting that outcome.
yeah but so was the Bucky situation, basically what he said: >>83036345
>>83035060
It mirrors what Natasha told him moments earlier. She explicitly told him to watch his back.
>>83036991
See watching your back means you're going to be betrayed. Breaking someone's back is an entirely different thing. see >>83035638
>>83034260
>The futurist, gentlemen! The futurist is here! He sees all! He knows what's best for you, whether you like it or not.
Loved his delivery of that bit. Loved it.
>>83036823
No, he didn't.
>>83034601
you sound like a 16 year old butthurt faggot kek
Man all these anons arguing about whether or not Clint knew about Rhodey's back being broken, and no one seems to remember that in the comics and animated adaptations Hawkeye's always been a giant fucking asshole.
It's not exactly out of character for him to make some arguably tasteless jokes like that.
>>83037194
The point is he wasn't an asshole in previous films. Civil War went out of it's way to paint him as brash and impulsive.
>>83037109
It was pretty great how disappointed he sounded at the end.
I like how he always seemed to dislike Tony but being too professional to talk shit up until that point. Whenever Tony is laughing at the AI becoming sentient for the irony, Clint seems so desperate not to tell him to fuck off and man up.
Same thing happened with Tony/Wanda. Every action Tony takes in regards to her seems to come out of fear for her, which makes sense, since she's the only one he truly knows he'll never understand. Maybe Vision too, but I don't think he's aware of it.
>>83037331
And he sucked dicks in previous films. I liked how he actually felt like Hawkeye this time.
>>83033992
Underrated post.
>>83033992
>She said that Howard Stark only dated whores when he was young, and that growing up at least made him settle for one.
>>83035551
Not worse than being a tonyfag and having all the avengers in jail for saving the world ASIDE Stark, who's the one who's endangered the planet the most times already by creating Ultron and triyin to stop Cap from preventing Zemo from liberating five winter soldiers more.
>>83037331
He was barely a character in any of the previous films, and in Age of Ultron he jokes about murdering Quicksilver and covering it up by blaming it on Ultron, so it's suffice to say he was probably always an asshole and it just wasn't immediately obvious because of how little screen time he usually gets.
Either that, or because it often seems like Joss Whedon only knows how to write one type of character so everyone in his films ends up acting/speaking the same way.
>Based Quickslav died for this absolute cunt
>>83036823
Their goal was the Jetfrom the start. They had falcon search for it at the beginning. Also even assuming they can make it in time it's imperative that they get there before the trail goes cold.
something insensitive about uncle ben
>>83038333
>letting a guy who has 3 kids a wife and is protecting a child die because he made a tasteless joke
>>83037926
>preventing Zemo from liberating five winter soldiers more.
that was never the plan and Tony didn't stop him because of that because Steve never told anyone about this
>>83038333
>implying Quicksilver wouldn't make a joke that Rhodey didn't see it coming
>>83038586
1. No one had any reason to believe that Zeno would kill the Winter Soldiers. They were a serious potential threat with a lot of reasons to believe they would be activated.
2. Before the Airport fight Steve told Tony about Zemo and the soldiers. Tony wanted them to surrender regardless.
>>83038695
he wanted them to give up Bucky, because they thought he was a terrorist
>>83038353
You mean they were searching for a jet that they didn't know was there and wouldn't have been there had Tony not arrived?. What would Steve had done had Ross said no to Tony going after Cap and they didn't have a jet to steal?
>>83039009
They were going to leave in the helicopter Hawkeye had lined up, which Tony disabled, causing them to shift gears to commandeering the Quinjet.
What if Clint didn't even know about Rhodes and was just making an odd jab at Tony? And then later he found out about Rhodes and felt terrible about what he said.
>>83038695
>Tony wanted them to surrender regardless.
And he was right to do so. Steve's team just rushes into things and hope they turn out fine. Look what happened in the opening of the movie. Nevermind Crossbones blowing himself up, a guy threatens to drop a vial of a biological agent and what does Cap's team do? They shoot him and make him drop it. That was just incredibly irresponsible.
>>83039171
And a helicopter is slower than a jet. Meaning Zemo could have activated them if he wanted to no matter what. Cap wasn't rushing, he just didn't want to turn Bucky in.
>>83038695
Same argument applies to Bucky.
>How was anyone supposed to know that this known killer cyborg, that all evidence points to committing this particular crime, was innocent of this particular crime?
>>83039197
It's a weirdly specific jab to make if he didn't know.
>>83039375
He was in another part of the world?
>>83039533
He was in the same country.
>>83039580
not quite but it's close enough
>>83039344
They don't have access to a jet, so a helicopter will have to do.
>>83034638
black widow is infertile.
>>83040079
meant for
>>83036841
>>83040079
>>83033928
>not "upstanding citizen"
>>83040108
Why would he say that
>>83039828
>no access to a jet in an airport
>>83034863
>He fucking made a joke about Tony's best friend being crippled, less than a day after it happened.
Be banged, get chatted shit
Speaking of them time it takes for them to Siberia, where Steve and Bucky taking the scenic route while making love on the Quinjet? Tony was ale to catch up with them with no problem despite their headstart.
>>83040376
Losing a fight you started doesn't give you the right to he an asshole.
>>83040455
Clint didnt start shit.
>>83040567
Team Cap threw the first punch. You can argue that they were justified, but they started the fight.
>>83040455
Tony is the one that brought his gang to fight them, Clint was just trying to fly to Russia.
>>83040638
Tony didn't want to fight them. He wanted to bring them peacefully so that Ross didn't kill them.
>>83040588
I guess you missed the part where Hawkeye set off explosions in Tony's property and attacked Vision unprovoked.
>>83040691
>>83040706
>trying to kidnap someone isn't starting the fight
>>83040750
Tony should have just turned her into immigration. Bad enough we have aliens wrecking New York, now heroes are harboring them
Friendly reminder that there is no cause to be concerned about Rhodey because Helen Cho exists.
She has super science to repair any damage, regrow nerves, tissue, limbs, and create living beings with vibranium bonded to their cells.
Rhodey going through physical therapy? There's no reason he shouldn't be running marathons in an hour after getting healed by her.
Did the writers forget she exists? That makes no sense. Was the script supervisor just speed reading?
>>83041296
Why isn't she an Avenger again?
>>83041344
She's busy making Amadeus Cho from leftover parts from when she was making Vision.
>>83041296
Didn't she died?
>>83040270
Commercial airports have commercial planes, bro. You do know the difference, right?
>>83041296
But she doesn't. She died.
Why would they put these normal ass people in the underwater prison?
>Hawkeye is just a bow and arrow guy.
>Falcon is a jet pack nigger.
>Ant-Man ain't shit without his suit.
>I don't know who that spider kid was but I'm sure his parents are proud of what you turned him into Tony.
>>83040112
yes, and >>83036841 apparently didn't get it.
WHEN YOUR LEFT HAND'S FREE!
>>83041760
To prevent breakouts lel
>>83041760
You really think Hawkeye wouldn't be able to break out of a supermax?
Not to go full Bullseye, but give him some darts, paperclips, playing cards, etc. and he's deadly as fuck.
>>83041760
Let's face it. It's not a prison, it's Ross' base of operations.
>>83041693
psst commercial planes are faster than helicopters too
>>83037965
Whedon only knows how to write one kind of character. Frankly I'm glad he's not writing any more of the MCU.
>>83041760
Why wouldn't they take their technology and just mass produce it. If Iron Man is all of a sudden onboard with the government overseeing his entire shit, why wouldn't him and War Machine just turn over the technology to Ross?
Tony could have just created a government army of Iron Men with Ant Man's shrinking ability. The technology is obviously able to be reproduced. If you want to take it to the next step, figure out how Parker got his abilities and create an Army of Iron Spider-Men with the ability to shrink and grow into giants.
>>83041904
ebin XD
>>83042020
I was worried that they got Ant-Man's suit. Where are they keeping it?
>>83041296
Did you miss the part where Ultron killed her and her entire science team?
>>83041760
It's Ross. He doesn't know the meaning of subtle.
>>83042073
Probably stupidly in the same underwater prison that he's being held in.
>Cap breaks them out of prison
>conveniently finds Falcon's wings, Ant Man's suit and Hawk-Guy's bow and arrows in the next room over.
>>83034601
HOL UP.
Have you been in jail /co/? I'm not asking this in a tough guy sense, I'm trying to ask if you know the general mood you get into when you're in a small cage like a monkey while people outside freely stroll by. It's not sunshine and gumdrops.
Is it your fault? Maybe, but you're in no temperament to be nice about it to anyone outside unless they're there to get you out. Especially if they helped put you in. Clint doesn't owe Tony a damn thing, let alone politesse.
He's locked up and Wanda is in a straitjacket. Because it's the legally allowed thing? Sure the law can make up whatever rules it likes, but it's still bullshit on Clint's plate, he doesn't have to eat it.
I mean, seriously, "act mature"? When you've been manhandled into that cell and have no respect left? Why? For who? Tony? Fuck Tony, if Clint should be expected to deal with the consequences of his choices like a big boy so should Tony. He knew what he was in for when he went down there. This isn't a conjugal visit, Clint's still getting fucked. Who should he set an example for down there? His wife and kids can't see him, that's for sure.
Fuck Rhodey too, would he shed a tear for Falcon? Would he even have gone to help Falcon? He was ahead remember, no one had Falcon's back. If he got shot down that would be it for Sam, Vision wasn't budging, Tony couldn't make it to Rhodey so he wouldn't make Sam either. If he won't stand for what's happened, Rhodey can just sit on it.
Plus, Tony goes apeshit on Bucky later so he's no model of restraint.
Clint did nothing wrong.
>>83037722
>it was me
>i cucked your mom Tony
>>83034863
>He fucking made a joke about Tony's best friend being crippled, less than a day after it happened.
No he didnt
>>83042320
>Clint doesnt owe Tony a damn thing
This. He owes Wanda and Cap. Screw Tony.
>>83038353
>quinjet just chilling in germany
I think that's what Team Stark showed up in.
It's about the only reason I can think of why Vision wouldn't haven't just blown it up.
>>83041296
>can't even print a single organ without mind stone hacks
I think you grossly overestimate her abilities. The tech is amazing, but it's for sealing cuts and filling bullet holes. The craddle only made Vision when she was blue-eyed from the stone, like Selvig building a stable wormhole device because of a mind stone upgrade or Strucker being able to give powers to the twins.
>>83033928
did he really made fun or Rhodey?
wow
>>83041648
>>83041757
>>83042090
She's alive. She's alive!
>>83041296
She still exists, but they didn't want to cheapen what happened to Rhodey. A magic cure that could fix everything would be a bit too easy at that point.
>>83043141
No, that's someone else
>>83042693
He did.
>>83043141
I don't remember this scene.
>Hey Tony, when your mom met Bucky she seemed kinda choked up.
>>83039300
>a guy threatens to drop a vial of a biological agent and what does Cap's team do? They shoot him and make him drop it. That was just incredibly irresponsible
What the fuck else were they supposed to do, let him go? Give in to his demands and pray he doesn't release it anyway? None of the options at the moment were good, they just took the best possible route.
>>83043144
Speaking of magical cures, what happened to Extemis? Tony uses it once, on himself, and forgets about it!
>>83043236
It's Cho, MCU wiki autism confirms.
>>83043293
It was just in the ending montage of 'what's everyone doing going forward' I think.
>>83043902
>tony used extremis on himself
No he fucking didn't. Stop pushing this shit.
>>83042320
Yeah. But you have to realize something:
I, as the viewer, don't owe Clint a goddamn ounce of my sympathy. He dug his grave, so as far as I'm concerned, he can fucking lie in it.
Basically, you're describing Clint as a well written villain. Which he was.
Can't wait for Quickslav to come back during Infinity War through some mystic bullshit.
>>83034260
>mfw Robert Downey Jr. actually recorded a music album called The Futurist
>>83044791
whedon would have a seizure over that
>>83042073
Pym is gonna be PISSED that Scott allowed the government to capture the suit.
>>83042020
>figure out how Parker got his abilities
That's probably the next plot point. Ross wants Peter for study so that they can replicate his powers. They're greater than Cap's, but not unstable berserker like the Hulk's.
Tony refuses or maybe decides maybe Peter can be convinced for a few tests. Peter will jump ship and join Team Cap.
>>83042020
Yeah, there's a strange little gray area there as far as War Machine is concerned. The armor, the reactor. You can't tell me they haven't been deep into that tech. Why aren't there a fleet of them out there? Maybe Tony softened on his stance after The Avengers. The fact that he helped SHIELD make repulsors for their helicarriers proves that.
>>83044791
Red Skull, Malekith, Ronan, and Quickslav will come back à la horsemen of the apocalypse, plus two for the time and soul stones.
>>83044767
>well written villain
For trying to save the world from Winter Soldiers?
>>83045216
I don't think anyone besides Tony can make arc reactors that small. There's got to be more to it than just following directions you could reverse engineer.
>>83044851
Absolute pottery.
As an aside, how old is Wanda supposed to be in this? 20?
>>83046917
22, 23. 25 at most, probably.
>>83043236
all look same
>>83034260
Honestly, the Cap side could justify anything. Zemo was write by Cap's dumbass logic.
>>83037109
>Look it's the futurists....
>One more word Barton and I'm fucking your wife after I leave here.
>>83047203
Keep telling yourself that.
>>83033928
Bantz is Hawkeye's only super power
>>83034305
The Accords would have died without consequence if Tony had told Ross to kick rocks. The alternative would be no Avengers, and the world needs them. Even if none of it had happened, no Erskine, no Cap, no Red Skull, Odin sends Thor to a different planet, no gamma accident for Banner, no Pym, even if Tony had never build a single weapon and NONE of them were superheroes, Thanos would still eventually want the Mind Stone, and he'd come get it. You can parrot Vision and say the team invites challengers simply by existing, but the fact is there are things that threaten the planet that would exist if there were Avengers or not.
The only reason the Accords were ever a thing, is because the Avengers are individuals. Not anonymous soldiers in uniforms. If a special forces soldier had dome something like Wanda and killed some people by accident while saving more people than he had harmed, he would have gotten is ass chewed a bit, maybe been locked up, but in court he would have been exonerated. But because Wanda is not anonymous, because she is a recognizable and famous individual, her faults count more.
>>83047578
If the Avengers all shot down the Accords, you'd get the CADMUS arc. Increasing tension between the world's governments and the Avengers.
>>83034260
Why didn't Clint tell him that Cap told him (Clint) that if he didn't help, a handful of more, better super soldiers were going to destroy the world?
Fighting to save the world your family lives in seems justification enough for breaking the law. And that law was explicitly having everyone chase after the wrong people
>>83047637
But in the CADMUS arc, the world was full of superhumans. In the MCU, there's only a few of them. Who would the UN have gotten to replace the Avengers when they were needed? Had Tony not given in, nothing would have happened. The governments of the world need the Avengers way more than the Avengers need them.
>>83042090
>Did you miss the part where Ultron killed her and her entire science team?
I guess so, since she's still alive at the end of the movie.
Speed watcher.
>>83045259
Yeah they really needed to stop Zemo from killing them.
Hell Zemo baited them there
He wanted that airport fight to happen.
Can you imagine how sad he would have been if both sides (or hell just one) stop and said "hey wait, let's talk this out."
I mean this is the only logic it would have taken to fix everything.
Tony: "Cap you, Sam, me, Rhodey, and Panther are going to follow this lead you got. Everyone else: lay low and watch each other IF you get caught turn Bucky into the authorities, if we find what he says is there it will help in his favor keeping him out of the chair, or river or however Wankdans kill criminals"
>>83043144
>She still exists, but they didn't want to cheapen what happened to Rhodey. A magic cure that could fix everything would be a bit too easy at that point.
So is Helen Cho going to be the Reed Richards of the MCU? She could fix everything but doesn't because of plot/she's a dick?
>>83047578
You're very close but I think you mean Thanos would still want the Space Stone. If the Avengers never formed or any of them existed, it's the Cube that'd still be on Earth.
>>83047749
Yeah,l because they totally knew Zemo was going to kill them, right? And Cap tried to talk to Tony several times, Tony didn't want to hear it. Did you even watch the movie?
>>83047749
>Can you imagine how sad he would have been if both sides (or hell just one) stop and said "hey wait, let's talk this out."
That was Tony's side, the addendum was to turn themselves in. Cap didn't trust Tony/the government to keep there word, why I have no idea because 3/5ths of Tony's team go behind the government's back all the time.
>>83047813
Yeah that one. Star Lord found the Power Stone and no one was using it, no "the Earth is ready for a higher form of war" stuff like with the cube. Thanos was coming, sooner or later.
>Who? meme
Go fuck yourself whomever is going to post that.
>>83047836
Because when Cap tried to tell Tony about Zemo, he didn't care.
>>83047814
>>83047836
>Tony didn't want to hear it.
Neither of them did.
They were both huge babies for stupid reasons.
Here's the kicker, let's say Zemo framed someone else that Cap had no attachment or relationship with. You think the movie would have still unfolded like it did?
No it wouldn't, the whole dumb as plot was cruxes on two things: Tony's guilt, Steve's retarded boy crush on a guy that killed 130+ people including major peace keepers.
Remove Steve's boy toy and the world is a better place, accords happen addendums happen, likely be removed once a major threat hit the world and Steve and Tony don't beat on each other like babies.
>>83047973
He cared, he was willing to help but he wanted Bucky handed over. He say's as much at the airport before the whole "you are ripping the team apart" stuff.
>>83047733
The governments would do what they did in the CADMUS arc - They'd try to create their own counterweapons just to stop the Avengers.
>>83047305
I can because I'm planted like a tree blahblahblah.
>>83047814
>Yeah, because they totally knew Bucky was framed and not lying about being innocent, right?
>>83047733
Those few MCU metahumans have done almost as much damage as JLU have.
If the MCU was as full of heroes as the JLU it be a chard rock
>>83048043
Why would Zemo have framed someone else that Cap didn't care about? The whole idea was to make the Avengers fight each other. Your proposed scenario is to remove Zemo entirely and the plot never happens. In which case Steve talks Tony out of the Accords by actually talking to him and helping him with his guilt, which is something Steve is very well equipped to do, and Ross gets told to go fuck himself.
>>83047749
>Yeah they really needed to stop Zemo from killing them.
So they should have psychic awareness when an ambiguous villain with ambiguous motives is going to definitely do or not do something?
Also yes, you keyed onto the precise problem. Tony was the one who didn't want to listen to what Cap had to say at the airport.
All because of trying to kiss up to Ross who he later himself sees has no leniency.
Ross literally says to his face
>You seriously think I'm going to listen to you after that stint in bla bla?
He didn't give one small shit about the fact the news was already reporting the fact an impostor was involved in the bombing, he just had a beef with the Avengers was enjoying getting off to pushing them around. Despite the ferocity of force they sent Bucky's way Ross and the UN did absolutely DICK in the way of looking into Zemo. Steve and Bucky after all they had been through had to personally see to dealing with him.
And in fact funny enough while I've myself said Zemo would just send the footage to Tony anyway in other threads I realize now if Tony had never shown up Bucky and Steve would have at least dealt with Zemo in time. Tony and T'Challa just kept getting in the way.
Tony could have at least sent some of the Accordvengers off to investigate what Cap was talking about while the others are brought in but instead uses all his manpower just to throw around his weight. All this is Tony's hostile actions against his supposed friends, and then people say Clint was out of line for a few mean words. Ridiculous.
>>83048107
Which would have been a waste of time, because Cap thought there was about to be a HYDRA super soldier assassin team unleashed on the world.
>>83047749
Cap's team couldn't wait because they thought Zemo was gonna unleash a bunch of super soldiers if they didn't hurry.
Tony's team couldn't wait because they were told that Ross would come after Team Cap with lethal force if they didn't hurry.
>>83047814
What
>>83048173
said, you can't handwave your side when the only narrative to support the flip is "My mass murder boyfriend said so"
>>83048115
HYDRA needed the scepter to do that. Just what would the governments of the world have done? What super-resources would they have called on? Because the MCU HAS NONE OF THAT YET.
>>83048173
Cap didn't think he was framed until after Zemo did the code phrase thing. Cap only intervened with Bucky's arrest because Agent 13 told him there were orders to bring him in dead. There is no aspect of Team Cap I can't successfully defend.
>>83041854
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD8oc4QEe6M
I wish somebody with better editing skills did this, but I love it anyway.
>>83048204
I'm sorry, what? What damage? Venko already had arc reactor tech, Loki's army was the one tearing up New York, Ultron was the one who destroyed Sarkovia, what damage are you talking about? Or did you mean that half-built building Tony BOUGHT before slamming Hulk into it?
>>83048216
I see you are dull.
Yes Zemo did that but that's my point, he baited Cap, because Cap didn't do that shit because it was right or firm mountain bullshit, he did it because his last thread to the past was going to get taken away from him and like a guilted lover he went though trails and hell to save him.
If Bucky wasn't in the picture or rather if Hydra's Winter Solider wasn't Bucky Cap would have either stayed retired or sign the accords.
Im saying Zemo's truly genius plan was he knew how much a fool Captain America was.
MCU Steve Rodgers is a damn fiddle ready to be played by any composure.
How would they try to imprison Thor?
It's pretty clear that they'd have a contingency plan for Thor and Hulk just in case. Hell, Hawkeye had one for Vision to disable him.
Kind of like JL: Doom
>>83048204
At most you could argue that Tony was indirectly responsible for...2 film's worth of damage, the rest isn't their responsibility. None of the other Avengers caused anything.
>>83048347
>Cap didn't think he was framed until after Zemo did the code phrase thing.
At which point his only evidence was still just Bucky's word.
>Cap only intervened with Bucky's arrest because Agent 13 told him there were orders to bring him in dead.
And? The German police had every reason to believe that trying to take in Bucky alive would get their men killed.
>>83048497
>Steve is gullible, even though he figured out Zemo's scheme to manipulate everyone minutes after he was arrested the first time
>Tony however isn't gullible at all despite the entire Iron Man series, Age of Ultron and Civil War illustrating his ineptitude.
Delicious.
>>83048418
Loki only attacked Earth to get revenge on Thor.
Ultron was literally created by Avengers.
Scarlet Witch intentionally sent the Hulk to attack a city full of innocent people.
>>83048497
>dull
That's not how you spell "completely right"
So you're saying Zemo knew which string to pluck to cause the plot to happen. SHOCKING. And that still doesn't address the fact Cap was fine with Bucky being locked up, just so long as he was ALIVE. Without Zemo, the Accords would have died because Cap and Tony would have had time to talk, and Cap would have helped Tony see his mistake.
>>83033928
Wasn't justified. Clint was the only one at fault for his irresponsible actions.
>>83048635
Thor isn't responsible for Loki's actions, and Thor did not choose Earth.
Ultron was created by Tony, the rest of the team thought it was a terrible idea.
No, she just mindfucked him, she didn't aim him at a population center. And she wasn't an Avenger at the time anyway.
So again, the AVENGERS are not responsible for any of it.
>>83048572
>None of the other Avengers caused anything.
S O U T H
A
F
R
I
C
A
>>83048794
See>>83048780
You don't into comics much, do you? Mind control=not responsible.
>>83048780
>Ultron was created by Tony
And Wanda.
>No, she just mindfucked him, she didn't aim him at a population center.
Re-watch the movie. It's very obvious she knew what she was doing.
>And she wasn't an Avenger at the time anyway.
She is now.
>>83048602
>even though he figured out Zemo's scheme to manipulate everyone minutes after he was arrested the first time
Zemo wanted that. That was part of his plan. That was the bait. "Ohh look Steve your BF killed millions... or did he?"
And I never said Tony was smart
>>83048691
>And that still doesn't address the fact Cap was fine with Bucky being locked up, just so long as he was ALIVE.
Rewatch the film, he wanted to keep him out of prison. Hell he knew those German's coming to get him would be more likely killed by Bucky then vice versa he said as much.
>>83048823
Wanda wasn't under mind control. She very deliberately made Bruce Hulk out in Johannesburg.
Are we ignoring the fact Cap wasn't going only be Bucky's word. He got face-to-face with Zemo in Berlin and Zemo outright admitted he was behind the blackout and wanted to "topple the empire" or whatever, but then escaped while Cap was dealing with Bucky.
Even though Stark ignored it, Cap has empirical evidence Bucky was a pawn of a larger conspiracy in which Zemo had an active hand in.
Zemo was the best villain and he didn't even have a costume. I think there was some subtext to that fact, that Ultron, Loki, and Hydra couldn't take down The Avengers was some guy with a life changing vendetta could.
I think that's what makes this movie great. It's a movie about consequences. That being a hero can be just as dangerous as having no heroes at all and that, in order to have super powers, you have to be a completely different type of person altogether. Even a super logical robot couldn't use his shit right, in the end, so who even fucking deserves to have them?
>>83048872
Wanda wasn't an Avenger then, did you even read that other post?
>>83048935
Yes, but she's an Avenger now. Saying more than one of the Avengers has caused serious destruction is 100% accurate.
>>83048869
Yes, because Agent 13 told him THEY HAD ORDERS TO KILL BUCKY ON SIGHT. You need to see the movie just in general, I have doubts you've watched it even once.
>>83048971
>THEY HAD ORDERS TO KILL BUCKY ON SIGHT.
and they would have died trying
>>83048833
>And Wanda.
Eh, she just spooked Tony. I wouldn't blame Ultron on her, you're 100% about the Hulk though.
>>83048916
>He got face-to-face with Zemo in Berlin and Zemo outright admitted he was behind the blackout and wanted to "topple the empire" or whatever
All he got from Zemo was:
>"What do you want?"
>"To see an empire fall."
No admission of anything.
>>83048965
See >>83048572
Just Tony, at best. Not the team in general.
>>83048833
Just saw that scene again. "I want the big one" then he's in a city. She did not put him there.
>>83048869
No, Zemo was clearly still under the belief Steve was fooled and trying to keep up the ruse by playing a victim when Steve found him in the room.
Once he saw Steve had figured it out he even takes a pause to collect himself and rethink his approach by misdirecting Steve with a vague remark.
I'll agree Zemo is incredibly intelligent, quick witted, resourceful and perceptive but that does not make Steve remotely dim.
Steve was simply overwhelmed by the situation of the UN and Accordvengers coming down on him while trying to figure out who was pulling the strings. It was everyone else who was getting chumped left and right.
>>83049002
Cap saved Bucky more than once in that scene.
>>83049013
The implication was obvious there.
>>83049053
>Brother wants to leave
>"No, I want the big one"
>Sees Bruce alone and confused
>She gets way more giddy than when she saw any of the other Avengers, including the one hates by far the most
She knew he was gonna Hulk out, and wanted him to do just that.
The city was right there next to them. If she didn't intend for him to attack the city, at the very BEST she was way, way more dangerously irresponsible than Tony ever was.
For what it's worth, Cap did try to talk at the airport. I believe Tony's reaction was "OK, I'm tired of this. Underroos!"
>>83049010
She says that she did it know he'd do something destructive in response. The movie very clearly spells out that creating Ultron was in direct response to her vision.
>>83049195
Yeah, and I don't blame Cap for thinking he was the bad guy, but I also can't blame Tony for thinking Bucky was lying.
>>83048916
>Cap has empirical evidence Bucky was a pawn of a larger conspiracy in which Zemo had an active hand in.
That he was unable to show Tony. He also failed to mention that the "psychologist" had told him straight up that everything that had happened was his plan.
What Stark sees is a blackout happens, then Bucky goes wild, Stark tries to stop him, and Bucky attempts to shoot him, strangle Black Widow, and kills some other guards, and then disappears with Cap and Falcon. Now first off, when he can't get ahold of Cap after all that, it looks pretty bad. In fact, it kind of looks like Cap staged a break-out to get his buddy free and ran off with him. When the next time he confronts him, him saying "That psychologist is behind all of this" isn't going to sound like trustworthy information. It's going to sound like
a.) an excuse Cap's making up
or more likely
b.) and excuse Bucky made up that Cap would believe because it's his friend.
>>83049292
Tony tried to talk, too. And Team Cap threw the first punch.
>>83033957
No one cared who he was until he put on the mask.
>>83049333
That's fair.
>>83047780
/the audience forgot she exists and the writers are good with that
>>83049361
>Tony tried to talk, too
No he didn't. Cap tried to tell him there was more to the situation he didn't realize and Tony just said "fuck that I ain't listening you're voming with me"
> And Team Cap threw the first punch.
If you're going to be pedantic and not count Spider-Man's webs as the first act of aggression, then I'm going to point out that Ant-Man kicked him rather than punching. The first actual punch was thrown by Black Widow.
>>83048298
Arguably the US / other governments are working on counters, such as Blonksy super solider (pre abomination), hammer drones/suits, SHIELD Hydra weapons, SHIELD reverse engineering Chutari/Destroyer tech, etc.
It's just that they don't have the ability to go full "Cadmus + Thor Clone" style yet, but you know, give Cho a few movies.
>>83049292
>>83050248
What I got from the "I'm out of patience" line was that Tony was dismissing Cap's argument on some level and just assuming he was making things up to save Bucky. Particularly when both parties are in a hurry.
Also, spidey's web isn't aggression, it's detainment, it's just handcuffing people remotely. Ant-Man kicking spidey was the first actual 'hit'.
>>83050248
>No he didn't. Cap tried to tell him there was more to the situation he didn't realize and Tony just said "fuck that I ain't listening you're voming with me"
No, he said that Steve's judgement was impaired. He also explained that if Steve didn't come with them, they'd have a bunch of Ross guy's "with no compunction about being polite" sent after them.
>If you're going to be pedantic and not count Spider-Man's webs as the first act of aggression
I wouldn't count it. It's just a disarming move.
>>83050804
>Tony was dismissing Cap's argument on some level and just assuming he was making things up to save Bucky.
Yes, that's why people say he wasn't willing to talk.
>restraining someone against their will isn't a form of aggression
stop
How can the UN want to give the Avengers oversight when the UN has no oversight themselves.
>kill on sight order on bucky. No trial or proper procedures.
>underwater super prison. Once again no due process.
>>83037524
Wanda is like everything Tony doesn't understand all in one confusing package.
Strange will probably provoke a similar reaction.
>>83051148
The UN already has checks and balances. No one in it can act unilaterally because they all have to answer to each other.
>kill on sight order on bucky. No trial or proper procedures.
Kill on sight was the proper procedure in this case. Bucky was a super-strong, super skilled, armed and mentally unwell individual who had already killed cops without hesitation in the past.
If you call trying to kill him "not due process", then you'd better complain about the people the Avengers kill, too. Like the guys in Lagos at the beginning of this very movie.
>>83039300
What would be more irresponsible would be letting 5 country toppling supersoldiers go free without a prompt response. Can you imagine them infiltrating governments or training terrorists?
>>83039375
By giving him a fair trial rather than sending a deathsquad
>>83051471
Kill orders were 100% the appropriate response this case.
QUIPEKINO!
>>83051294
The Avengers didn't "kill on sight" any of their targets. The only people they've killed have been those who were in the process of fighting them and they had no choice but use lethal force against. Any time an enemy has surrendered to the Avengers they have been allowed to live. Most of the time even the enemies who fight the Avengers are allowed to live. They never went into a situation with the pre-planned idea to kill their targets, which is exactly what the cops were doing to Bucky.
>>83051511
No they weren't
>>83051511
OR you could send someone strong enough to subdue him non lethally. Like the avengers. The information he must know alone is invaluable to the UN
>>83051605
Yes, they were. The police had overwhelming reason to believe that trying to arrest Bucky non-lethally would get cops killed.
>>83051564
When you invade an enemy compound, and they start shooting at you, killing them is not considered self-defense.
>they had no choice but use lethal force against
Which is how Bucky was from the cop's perspective.
Look at the guy with the vial of bioagent from the beginning. It wasn't a case of killing in the heat of the moment, or stopping him from immediately killing someone, but trying to deal with the situation non-lethally was far too risky and so the Avengers just shot him dead.
>>83051294
Since when is the UN allowed to decide "kill on site" for an American citizen.
Fuck that.
>>83052021
When that citizen is an armed, extremely skilled and powerful assassin who has killed cops without hesitation before.
>American citizen
If he weren't an American citizen, would you be less bothered?
Actually, is Bucky even a legal citizen anymore? Being legally dead and all?
>>83052021
Since when does the UN have any power at all?
>>83050894
Trying to take away Captain America's Mighty Shield? While he's standing in front of a bunch of guys who throw around energy and aren't too picky about who they zap with it? Your acrobatics in trying to make Tony out to be the good guy put Spider-man to shame.
>>83052180
>While he's standing in front of a bunch of guys who throw around energy and aren't too picky about who they zap with it?
Everyone there was reluctant to fight and wanted to avoid killing at all costs.
Clint was a real cunt in this scene. He was acting as if Tony was a literal Judas like in the comics.
>>83052128
Then don't send cops.
>>83049423
Lot of loyalty for a hired gun
>>83052256
Clint was butthurt that he's now a felon after BREAKING THE LAW.
>>83052128
World War II hero and veteran. Do you think if someone is "missing and presumed dead" and then shows up alive that they lose their citizenship?
U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. These acts include:
Obtaining naturalization in a foreign state;
Taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration to a foreign state or its political subdivisions;
Entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state;
Accepting employment with a foreign government if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) a declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position;
Formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S. consular officer outside the United States;
Formally renouncing U.S. citizenship within the U.S. (but only "in time of war");
Conviction for an act of treason.
But because Bucky was captured and brainwashed, none of this was intentional and therefore he still has the full rights afford to him as a citizen.
>>83051972
>When you invade an enemy compound, and they start shooting at you, killing them is not considered self-defense.
I didn't say it was, but it's a far cry from strolling into a guy's living room and shooting him
>Which is how Bucky was from the cop's perspective.
Except the Avengers try less-than-lethal means first and only use lethal as a last resort.
>Look at the guy with the vial of bioagent from the beginning. It wasn't a case of killing in the heat of the moment, or stopping him from immediately killing someone, but trying to deal with the situation non-lethally was far too risky and so the Avengers just shot him dead.
This is a good example to illustrate how wrong you are. Nobody decided ahead of time that vial guy was "too dangerous to live." He was shot only when he presented an IMMEDIATE threat to those around him and there was no time to consider other options. It's not even in the same league as sending a squad with the explicit purpose of killing a man.
Capability, opportunity, and intent have to be in place to justify lethal force. Vial guy had the vial--capability. He was in a crowded street--opportunity. He literally said he would drop the vial--intent.
Compare to Bucky. He's strong and skilled--ok, there's capability. He was alone in his house--opportunity? That one's a bit shaky but let's say it wouldn't be hard for him to find a victim. Opportunity is kinda there. But intent? They went in guns blazing. They had no idea what his intent was.
>>83052128
>When that citizen is an armed, extremely skilled and powerful assassin who has killed cops without hesitation before.
That doesn't justify lethal force at all. Having killed people in the past doesn't give you the right to use lethal force. Only if he's currently presenting an immediate threat. And he's not immediately threatening to anyone alone and in his own home.
>>83052364
He had a point, though. Stark also "broke the law" by going on an unsanctioned mission without reporting to his superiors based on circumstancial evidence. He did the very same thing Cap and his team did and yet was strolling merrily through the compound while the other were rotting in prison.
If Stark wanted accountability so much, why wasn't he held accountable for his actions?
>>83052341
Perhaps he's wondering someone would shoot a man, before dropping him out of a plane
>>83052608
When Tony says "we need to be kept in check", he means people not called Tony.
>>83053153
When he says "we need to be kept in check" he means his teammates need to be kept in prison but he'll just send you a big fat check.
>>83033928
Clint proving he is a douche and he got exactly what he deserved it was his choice his fault he broken the law now he's all pissy over it
>>83033992
>>83053291
>and he got exactly what he deserved
>what you deserve = what the law says you deserve
>>83053291
I don't get why he is being a bitch about it. Him being separated from his family was the only possible outcome when he sided with fugitives, no matter which side won. What else was he possibly expecting to happen? At least own up to it and don't whine.
>>83053726
If no one captured him he could just go back to the home that no one knows about.
>>83053726
>you deserve to be put in a prison located in an ocean underwater with no visitors if you are a fugitive
He has no powers and arguably just got into a fist fight. He didn't kill or maim anyone either. The punishment does not fit that crime. Tony is a cunt
>>83049265
And she still wasn't an Avenger, so the Avengers are not responsible for her actions at that time.
>>83038374
>>83053842
People keep bringing this up, but nowhere was it mentioned that that would be their permanent prison. They were being held there as a group because some of them DID have powers, and they still had allies free who could possibly break them out (which Cap did, and was complete bullshit)
>>83050604
Which is a nice theory, but we also saw what happens when governments tried to make Avengers countermeasures in the beginning of IM2.
>>83051294
You mean like how the Avengers are accountable to each other?
>>83053960
You don't see any of them having court dates set or meeting with legal counsel. We just going to assume the guys who laughed at the idea of a guy having a lawyer, and who have no problem ordering summary executions, are suddenly going to give a fuck about due process?
That also makes sense with the Raft being out in the ocean. If it's not on any country's soil they don't have to follow any country's rules about detaning prisoners.
>>83052364
It's every American's duty to break unjust laws. Clint was right to do so. They might not teach this anymore in the public school system, but law=/=right.
>>83054173
The United States wouldn't exist if people weren't willing to break unjust laws.
>>83054173
And breaking the law =/= right. Did Cap's side even listen to the opinion of the common man? If the Avengers are allowed to operate with impunity, then why can't an average Joe pick up an M16 and go globetrotting around the globe fighting crime? Why even have laws at all, if having super powers means you can be above the law whenever you see fit?
