ITT: Cop Outs
Avatar season finale thread?
>>82913242
oh fuck you
ending of the manga/anime monster
jesus christ how anti-climactic
>>82913242
I've never seen Avatar, but I imagine them both screaming "WOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLP" in that screenshot.
>>82913242
>>82913242
>>82913242
It could have ended perfectly without the lion turtle thing happening at all, and just letting that spiral of elements kill Ozai.
But I guess that'd be too graphic. Aang should have pulled the oxygen from his lungs or made him blow his own head off.
Would you have been fine with the guru teaching him how to seal someone's bending through chi?
>>82913242
>>82913381
He's a pacifist
>>82913381
Or if they'd just set it up so that Ozai was overthrown and imprisoned. It's not like there weren't prisons for fire benders.
I think the stupider part was where Aang went around the world for three books trying to get strong enough to beat him by himself but then just used Avatar form anyway, which he pretty much could've done from the start. What was the point of the entire series? Just fucking around.
>>82913456
If it hadn't taken so damn long for them to air the episodes, it would have been better.
But they're not done with it yet, so we'll see
>>82913456
I hope that Yellow or Blue Diamond are so fucking evil that Steven is forced to realize that there isn't always a pacifist option.
>>82913332
It was actually totally silent except for a beam-like sound effect.
>>82913492TWISTEDFUCKINGPSYCHOPATH
>>82913456
this is fine when you realize even with the huge buildup, the cluster was just a small subplot, the real important shit is the invasion of yellow diamond and the homeworld.
>>82913495
He couldn't control his avatar form or use the other powers effectively. Even in book 2 he kills flying things with his avatar state.
>>82913543
That's a little disappointing, but I bet theyWOLOLOLOLOP
>>82913492
Remember that time Aang drowned an entire Fire Nation navy?
>>82913634
But he clearly rescinded on the "let go of Katara" thing, because he's in even more of a relationship with her in Book 3 than in Book 2.
>>82913456
You might not like it, but it wasn't a cop-out. Everything was set up beforehand.
The partially conscious nature of fractured Gems has been established.
The fact that bubbling can prevent Gems from forming a body has been established for a long time.
Steven's telepathic powers have been shown.
And, most importantly, we know about Steven's "let's talk it out instead of fighting" personality. That's his MO. It's been a major part of his character forever. Peridot, Centipeetle, Lapis, On the Run, etc. You should have known that he'd do something like this ever since the nature of the Cluster was mentioned.
>>82913456
To be fair, Steven has always had a Charisma of 25.
>>82913515
Eh, I can see them being irredeemable but not "no pacifist" option.
Like I can see the Diamonds fucking themselves over in their own anger. Like turning their subjects away from them and stranding themselves, or getting themselves shattered somehow.
But if you're talking about Steven smashing his shield on a gem like Captain America on an arc reactor, then no, I do not ever see that happening
>>82913456
That was a bandaid on a gaping chest wound. Something is going to pop that bubble and Steven won't be able to hug it back into place, at least not immediately
>>82913495
I think Aangs entire story is that of the quiet 15 year old who goes to get a tattoo behind their parents back. It's all excitement and fun until they are there in the seat and realize this isn't something they can do.
Aang was training to become strong enough to beat the Firelord because since he was unfrozen the Firelord has been the badguy. His been end game. His been the one cause of all of Aang's problems. It wasn't until he mastered all his elements and were training with the dummies did he realize that this is something he, as a person, as a member of the Air Nomads, couldn't morally do.
Also the Avatar state wasn't exactly something he could do from the start since he lost the ability to use it from that exploding face man.
>>82913634
Yeah, but if he ultimately only relied on the Avatar form and if the Avatar form was the only thing that mattered in defeating Ozai then what the fuck was the point in any of the rest?
Also, 'You can never use the Avatar form because then the cycle might be destroyed!' but then he uses it indiscriminantly anyway. And it didn't matter at all because Avatar form can beat anyone forever all of the time.
Avatar form itself was a really stupid plot device.
>>82913694
Excuse me, shitwagon, the point is that it cops out from the buildup of everything about dealing with it. Eight episodes half-spent pointing towards actually fucking fighting or destroying something, intentionally for once. And then naw, power of love. Fuck if that was established, they promised fucking action and copped out.
>>82913779
>Also the Avatar state wasn't exactly something he could do from the start since he lost the ability to use it from that exploding face man.
He lost it from Azula. And there's no point in him losing it if he gets it back through sheer luck as soon as he needs it.
>>82913456I want Steven to fuse with Peridot.
>>82913787
The Cluster can't fight without forming and can't form without obliterating the Earth. What on Earth did you expect?
And we got a fight in SWI. Just be happy with that.
>>82913456
Nothing about that was a cop out
The gems had no plan to deal with the cluster after getting to it. There was nothing they could have possibly done to it even if all the gems were there and it choosing to bubble itself made the most sense. It wasn't some asspull like Steven grew a blade and cut the cluster in half either, as Steven has communicated with gems telepathically before.
It was a great stall or an okay ending to the cluster depending on how the crewniverse deals with it in the future.
>>82913787
>they promised fucking action
They never did.
SU has never been an action show.
>>82913833
>He lost it from Azula
Ah. Why did I think a rock was involved? Doesn't matter.
It wasn't sheer luck that he got it back, The Lion Turtle showed him how to bend energy (which got him his avatar form back) and essentially showed him how to cut off bending which gave him an option against the Firelord that didn't end in one of them dying.
>>82913690
>he clearly rescinded on the "let go of Katara" thing
Not so. He didn't have to completely let go of her, just the idea that she had to come before the rest of the world. Even when expressing how he feels for her, he still advances towards what is really important.
>>82913785
>but then he uses it indiscriminantly anyway.
Aang actually uses the Avatar State only three times per season, twice in the last and that was only in the final episode.
>>82913787
>And then naw, power of love.
>power of love
>naw
watch a different show senpai
>>82913787
>he thinks PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH is better than convincing a hundred million corpses of Earth's defenders to stay dead in order to preserve the planet they love
How is pubescence treating you, anon?
>>82913905
>The Lion Turtle showed him how to bend energy (which got him his avatar form back)
Actually no. His Avatar form was still locked after that. It was only after Ozai blasted him spine-first into a rock that he got it back
>>82913787
Where did they promise any action or fight against the cluster? The gems never even discussed how to deal with the cluster after reaching it they were just winging it. Hell thank god Steven dealt with it and not the gems since they are fucking retarded and would have tried to fight it and woke it up. The gems are a bunch of screw ups who can't do anything but attack a problem head on.
>>82913905
>Why did I think a rock was involved?
>It wasn't sheer luck that he got it back, The Lion Turtle showed him how to bend energy (which got him his avatar form back) and essentially showed him how to cut off bending which gave him an option against the Firelord that didn't end in one of them dying.
You're getting your thoughts crossed. A rock to the back was what gave Aang the Avatar State BACK.
The Lion Turtle thing was ANOTHER cop-out that was equally stupid. ATLA's finale is so awful that I can't believe people still defend it.
>>82913917
Three times is pretty indiscriminant if it might cause the end of the world, man.
>>82913864
>The gems had no plan to deal with the cluster after getting to it.
except that part about drilling the fuck out of it and breaking/destroying it which would have made more sense of busting it up and then have them bubble each other
>>82913929
>>82913960
The ROCK!
It all makes sense now. Illuminati confirmed. I'll be back in 3 days brothers. This will be big
>>82913666
Yeah and then he spent all of season 2 being so afraid of the Avatar State to the point that it actually got him killed.
>>82913381
>It could have ended perfectly without the lion turtle
true. Aang could defeat him easily (and actually did) without energybending. I think the only point in showing it, is to finish explaining the energybending thing they have been talking about since S01.
You guys are all forgetting about the biggest cop-out in recent cartoon history.
Gruncle Stan getting his memories back after all.
>>82914101
I still love GF, but you're right. I forget, did they give a hand-wavy answer for that or no explanation at all?
>>82914101
Didn't they establish in an earlier episode your memories could come back?
>>82914095
The energybending was just there so he could defeat Ozai without killing him. Ironically it has done little to actually stop people from wanting to put Ozai back on the throne.
>>82913833
>>82913929
why getting hit in the middle of a fight is considered weird? getting hit in the same spot is hardly a stretch.
>>82913495
>I think the stupider part was where Aang went around the world for three books trying to get strong enough to beat him by himself but then just used Avatar form anyway, which he pretty much could've done from the start.
His Avatar State didn't have other forms of bending until he learned them, doofus. He couldn't have done any of the stuff he used to wipe out Ozai at the beginning.
That and learning to actually control his Avatar State, which allowed him to go into it after his chakras got fixed, and to leave it before killing Ozai.
>>82914101
I would have been way more ok with that if it had been slower. Like, while he's on the boat trip with his brother they sorta slowly come back
Could've meant something if she'd stayed dead.
>>82914101
>Implying Bill's curse didn't fuck up the memory wipe
>>82914157
It's that somehow getting thrown onto the exact outcrop of rock that one tiny piece of it hits a spot, and that somehow hitting that spot repairs his chakra when literally nothing else could. It kinda takes the thunder out of losing the ability to begin with if he can just get it back as soon as he needs it.
>>82913242
I'm forever fine with the ending to Avatar. The only part that was stupid was hitting that rock to reopen his chakra or whatever.
Er, no. The biggest cop-out?
<--
>>82914095
>is to finish explaining the energybending thing they have been talking about since S01
That's bullshit. Throwing a few vague uses of the word "energy" around is in no way a builld-up to "You can magically take people's bending away".
>>82914189
>His Avatar State didn't have other forms of bending until he learned them, doofus.
Nah nah nah nah nah. I don't buy that shit. Avatar form has all the knowledge and clearly all the power of all the previous Avatars.
>>82913785
>And it didn't matter at all because Avatar form can beat anyone forever all of the time.
Didn't Azula fuck Aang up pretty badly in the season 2 finale when he was in the Avatar State? It's not invincible.
>>82914209
>
>>82914157
It's been years since I've seen ATLA but I think it was anti-climactic because it was implied Aang's block was more mental than physical (his chi points were obviously fucked up but if he reached some kind of understanding and acceptance they would open up again on their own). Like it's not weird Aang got hit by a rock, it's weird because it had nothing to do with what happened to him. He literally just got lucky.Arguably this was something LOK did better because Korra actually had to confront and accept what happened to her and ALSO had to go through the physical part of recovery by bending the poison out of her body.
>>82914157
It's more the fact that Aang's entire victory hinged on a coincidence completely outside his control, and so who he was as a person, and all that training he did, was completely irrelevant.
>>82914250
If you could find an episode to show that that includes bending forms, I'd believe you, but it doesn't seem to. In the beginning, Aang still only did air stuff in the Avatar State.
>>82914233
Also this. People keep saying there was buildup when it was only pictures of lion turtles every now and then which did nothing for energy bending and only built up that the turtle existed.
It was entirely out of left field.
>>82914189
>didn't know waterbending
>wrecked zuko's ship in ep 2
>>82914256
That wasn't the normal Avatar State. That was a one-time weird mediation thing Aang was doing.
>>82914256
>>82914332
The Avatar State makes you vulnerable because if you get killed during it, it ends the Avatar cycle. Aang fucked up because he spent too long floating there dramatically and Azula had the sense to actually try and attack him.
>>82914287
>Like it's not weird Aang got hit by a rock, it's weird because it had nothing to do with what happened to him.
Yeah it does. He had achieved the mental state by the end of Season 2, and then Azula fucked him up physically. If she hadn't done that, he could have probably beat Ozai even faster, as he would have had Avatar State abilities whenever he needed them.
>>82914332
>That was a one-time weird mediation thing Aang was doing.
What?
>>82914387
This is why Azula is the best.
>>82914415
>Yeah it does.
Thematically no it doesn't. The fact is if Aang had been off by a few inches he wouldn't have unblocked his chakras.
>>82914314
You mean when he deflects Zuko's fireball with air to make an ice cliff collapse on it?
>>82914499
You're right. It was luck. I'm saying that it had to do with what happened to him, because it was bad luck that he got his chakras fucked up because of a physical problem in the first place.
>it was implied Aang's block was more mental than physical
is inaccurate. He had already achieved the mental aspect.
>>82914136
>The energybending was just there so he could defeat Ozai without killing him
he defeated ozai without killing him Before energybending, using the avatar state. That's how he trapped him on taht rock. After that, Ozai is defeated. They could literally throw him in jail with bending that it wouldn't make a difference.
>>82914224
>that somehow hitting that spot repairs his chakra when literally nothing else could
he lost it by getting hit as well. Getting it back by hitting again sounds logical.
>>82914233
it is buildup for "the power exists, we just don't know what it does".
>>82914287
>it's weird because it had nothing to do with what happened to him
he literally lost the power by getting hit on that place. It has a lot to do with what happened to him.
>>82914301
getting hit is hardly a "coincidence"
> who he was as a person, and all that training he did, was completely irrelevant
if he did not train, he couldn't control the avatar state and would just kill Ozai.
>>82914695
No he very clearly didn't defeat Ozai until he took his bending away from him. Aang needed a way to beat him without killing him. Ozai doesn't know how to fight without his bending. Take away his bending = defeating him.
>They could literally throw him in jail with bending that it wouldn't make a difference.
They would have a way harder time doing it.
>>82914786
>he very clearly didn't defeat Ozai until he took his bending away from him
watch that part again. Aang kicked his ass, and then trapped him with earthbending. At that point Ozai couldn't leave anymore. He could literally just let Ozai there, or make him go through the ground until his neck.
>They would have a way harder time doing it
trap him in earth --> wait Sozin's comet --> he is a normal firebender --> throw him in jail
>>82914879
You keep intentionally missing the point.
>>82914923
the point is if Aang needed energybending to defeat Ozai. He didn't. He could literally just let him there with earthbending trapping his hands and feet. If he tried to firebend he would just burn his hands. Even if he escaped, Aang could kick his ass back to earth again, all the way to his neck. Energybending serves no purpose on that ending other than be there for the sake of showing it.
>>82914786
>They would have a way harder time doing it
Exactly why it's a cop out to just take his bending. That whole finish would've been fine had Aang detained him. That would be Ozai's defeat. He's not helpless sure but they can and have detained fire benders before. Being good and not "doing what is necessary" is fucking hard and it should be fucking hard. As is the ending has one glaring, unexplained moment that doesn't ruin it, but just kind of sucks some of the wind out of the sails.
The turtle was bullshit. The rock thing was explained.
>>82914765
>it is buildup for "the power exists, we just don't know what it does".
Which means it's not buildup at all.
>getting hit is hardly a "coincidence"
That's what it is. Something that happened by chance, beyond his control, with no relevance to his character.
>>82914533
https://youtube.com/watch?v=AXcD2hc2noM
>>82915086
>The rock thing was explained.
Having an explanation doesn't make it not a cop-out.
There's no point in taking the Avatar State away if they're just going to hand Aang back his insta-win mode, with no effort, as soon as he needs it.
>>82913787
It's literally impossible to kill you idiot.
>>82913242
Taking away his bending perfectly coincided with Aang's beliefs, why do you consider it a cop out?
>>82914002
The drills weren't doing shit except encouraging the cluster to form faster.
>>82913787
>eight episodes
That's not a lot, senpai. Especially considering that it's an 11 min per episode series.
>>82913456
Bubble your butthurt
>>82913787
>And then naw, power of love
Did you forget the entire episode dedicated to the message that love was the answer. It's not a new concept in the show.
>>82914053
Holy fuck does this trigger me.
If that rock wasn't in THAT specific are at THAT specific time in THAT specfic shape, Aang is unambiguously fucking dead.
The spiritbending is also a copout, but at least it's something that Aang actively chooses to do for reasons that fit his character.
Sorry for the meme text on the image, it's the only one I could find quickly and I didn't feel like spending that much time looking for one, but it also shows how fucking stupid the fans of this series can be that they find this kind of thing acceptable. It's the kind of encouragement that led Bryke to the conclusion that they didn't even need proper writers on Korra considering most of the retarded fanbase will apparently accept anything.
>>82913666
You mean that time a grief-stricken spirit hijacked his body so he could commit mass murder while Aang was helpless to stop it.
Delving past the surface. Xanatos declaring a truce and welcoming the Gargoyles back to their home because they saved his son from getting kidnapped by a spirit god was a major step in the wrong direction to take his character in the show.
>>82913456
It would have been better if Peridot had explained how those force fused gems were before instead of in that episode so it would have been some nice foreshadowing, but since it all happened at once I can see how it can look shitty.
>>82913495
This was my issue with it too, despite the people replying with justifications. It seemed too much like that guy from the beginning was right. Seeing Aang beat Ozai with techniques and advice from each trainer would have been so much more satisfying.
Really the Zuko vs. Azula fight was so much more entertaining and better executed.
>>82913456
This is probably b8 but as others have said it's thematically very consistent with the show. It's nice, I think. Not every show has to be edgy and SU is about empathy more than anything.
>>82917520
He wouldn't have been able to take down Ozai without using all forms of his bending. Do you honestly think Ozai would have willingly sat still to have his bending taken away? He was enjoying the power surge Sozin's Comet gave him, he wasn't fucking around.
>>82917520
You're missing the point of the show. It's not the destination, it's the journey. In this case Aang needed to travel the world to mature enough to handle the responsibility of being the Avatar and learn about the people he's supposed to help, even the fire nation people.
He needed that maturity or he'd have lost.
>>82913787
I agree it was kind of an anticlimax because after all that buildup, all Steven needed to do to stop the apocalypse was to ask nicely and it was over in a few minutes. A lot was accomplished with very little effort or sacrifice. Steven didnt learn anything, he was just confirmed to be right about using empathy over force. Garnet may have learned something and she put herself at risk, which is the best part about the episode, but she didn't really contribute to the resolution at the end, she just helped Steven to get there so he could solve the conflict in two sentences.
>>82918973
>Garnet
I meant PERIDOT wtf
>>82917560
Lmao, now defending yourself is considered edgy
Yeah, leave the world destroying abomination alone, the only thing preventing it from destroying the planet is its mental stability which is lacking.
But just ignore it, we don't want to be edgy tryring to claim that self defence is a good thing
>>82914157
Getting into a jam because of "chance" (aka the writers choosing that to happen) is a-okay. Getting out of a jam in the same circumstances isn't.
>>82916302
Because he only got a solution that coincided with his belief out of chance, he doesn't have to work for it.
>>82917520
Luke Skywalker risks his own life rather than killing Darth Vader, and the journey to becoming a Jedi knight is complete at that moment. He has gotten over his anger and fear which has been the theme throughout the story.
What did Aang do? Found a new trick at the last minute and just beat the bad guy by being superior in every way. His journey to becoming more mature and responsible did not culminate to that moment. He could have imprisoned his villain even without the turtle magic, it was just a bonus. There was no difficult decision or sacrifice or a moment of truth. He didn't discover anything about himself or understand a lesson his master tried to teach him. He just kinda beat the firelord like he was supposed to and that was it. Sure, there was plenty of character development before the finale but not in the final battle itself.
>>82913456
To be fair to the crew, they have no control over airdates. I doubt they intended for that longass break.
>>82913787
Go watch a show for edgy kids Donte
>>82915015
>earthbending trapping his hands and fee
Did you miss the point where Ozai literally breathed fire
>>82913456
I wasn't bothered by the bubble itself. I was bothered that the culmination of all that build up was two boring as fuck episodes with barely any good humor and relying on action that isn't even timed properly.
Just bad all around.
>>82913866
The first half of season 1 was. Then Steven found out all the monsters were just War-vets with PTSD and went all noble.
Forgetting the peridot chases, the last REAL fight scene was against Lapis mid-season 1
>>82920022
My retard brain just though "no wait, malachite vs. Alexandrite"
None the less, real fight scenes seem to be only for big, big, big events now.
![scr_s02_ep04-07[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/KQI7Yny.jpg "scr_s02_ep04-07[1].jpg")
>>82913242
Pinpin coming back in Wakfu season 2.
It was an excellent arc, though. On the other hand, it makes for very disturbing morals.
>It's ok to obsess over your dead loved ones. If you throw avay your life and go on a quest instead of learning to cope with loss, you will probably find them again.
In the end, it's just another path taken, but I'm curious about what it could have been. Single mother Eva, focus on Amalia and Yugo, Cleophee joining the party....
>>82920499
>Single mother Eva
>Still obsessed with the Iop dick
>delicious ss incest
>>82913866
It is partly an action show, the action is just shit or copy pasted from anime.
>>82917310
Why is Xanatos ambiguously brown and his son is white as milk?
>>82920499
I still think that the OVA, portal to the shushu dimension was the biggest cop out of the series.
and yeah I did find the morals of that arc to be a bit weird
>>82913666
>>82914074
>There are people RIGHT HERE who doesn't have the skill to don't get what happened on a cartoon made FOR KIDS.
The entire Sea Spirit sequence was OUT of Aang control.
It started with Avatar State, that he doesn't control at the time.
Them the Sea Spirit basically possessed him, so he could avenge his lover.
It gets even more obvious when he takes Zhao even before leaving Aang.
>>82917310
I like that it didn't mean Xanatos was done scheming. His schemes just started playing out in entirely different directions. He's still dealing with the fallout from everything, plus being a new dad, plus he's now got Puck with a limited access to his powers (which he never did as Owen).
>>82915258
>That's what it is. Something that happened by chance, beyond his control, with no relevance to his character.
Not him, but I thinki that iits pretty obvioius that it is related to DESTINY and AVATAR AS THE ENCARNATION OF THE WORLD AND BALANCE, that he gets hit on that place.
It is a narrative, it is symbolic.
People try to think on Avatar using tropes like it was a real event, when the world actually function in a Wuxia movie logic.
I'm still mad fuck you Brkye
>>82921041
I feel like that happened due to Disney mandate or something
>>82920739
>ambiguous
He's Greek, nothing ambiguous about it.
>why is his son as white as milk
FAERIE GENETICS
>>82920739
Because his mom is a ginger.
>>82913242
>8 years later and there are still people defending this
>>82920895
It didn't really disturb me.
Mt Zinit flying and it falling down happened in the same episode, and they still got an intense meteor shower in an already apocaliptic setting.
But taking on Ogrest that way was still a pretty stupid idea, Adamai was rightthat little shit
>>82913515
I fucking hope. I'm sick of Steven solving every problem by everyone just liking him right off the bat. Fuck that shit. We need more shit like Jasper. We need more pure bad guys who don't give a shit and would hurt a child.
Because seriously, Steven is bordering on Mary Sue status.
>>82921175
And half-Fae.
>>82917310
>imma_eat_that_baby.jpg
>>82921431
>Steven is bordering on Mary Sue status.
He can't possibly; he's the fucking main character. Take your stupid fanfiction-speak and apply it where it belongs.
>>82921826
>He can't possibly; he's the fucking main character
>a main character can NEVER be a Mary Sue
Are you retarded?
>>82913690
"Able to let go" doesnt mean you cannot have personal attachments. Some avatars were married.
>>82921072
For Book 2? Book 4 was fine. She just defeated Kuvira with the typical PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH and with a little bit more closure thanks to Korra talking Kuvira down after Kuvira had already lost.
>>82913787
Why do Hispanics find it so hard to enjoy watching a show that isn't primarily about violence?
>>82915258
Did you go "Woa, tapeworms out of nowhere" when they explained the first avatar in LoK? We always knew it had to come from somewhere and do something. Not knowing exactly what it does is okay.
About the rock thing, getting hit is as much of a coincidence as winning any fight, by your standards. "It just so happens he hit the enemy right on those spots and defeated him". Anyway, being thrown into a rock says a lot about his character. It says that a 11 years old cannot defeat a master three times his age and powered by a comet. Honestly, what were you expecting to happen? Aang defeat him without the avatar state?
>>82921969
Book 4 was kinda shit too. Though i don't think that's what he meant.
>>82915706
Were you expecting him to Win without it?
Also, if he did not have train to control it, he would just go out of control. Taking it away is more of a way to make things interesting, to actually show Aang fighting the firelord before showing the avatar fighting.
>>82913456
People unironically defend this shit.
>>82917520
Aang is 11 years old and only mastered air.
Who the hell expects him to beat Ozai powered by the comet?
>>82919043
>solution
Literally doesnt change anything
>>82919901
Let him breath fire until Sozin pass. Then put him in jail like any other firebender.
>>82913456
>He thinks the cluster subplot is over
>Steven is a pacifist
>Violence isn't always the answer
>This fits in line with the character of Steven
Bullshit. People waited months for this? What was even the point of emphasizing the Cluster to be this huge threat at all? The writers dropped the ball on this one, it felt like they were so anxious to resolve this subplot or at least put it on the back burner that they resorted to literally pulling shit out of their asses.
I am so tired of Steven always upstaging the gems. The Gems look so damn incompetent in relation to Steven when they can't even solve the problems brought by their own kind.
I know Stephen is the main protagonist here but there's a difference between having the story progress or letting the plot be augmented for you like a Mary SUe.
There was nothing satisfying about this resolve. It just goes to show that more cosmic ass pulls are on the way.
>>82922032
>Did you go "Woa, tapeworms out of nowhere" when they explained the first avatar in LoK?
No, I went:
>"This is fucking stupid as hell."
Vaatu and Raava were awful, because they turned a concept that had been said to be about balance into an incompatible good vs. evil dichotomy. But that's beside the point - Energybending was stupid because it came in at the last second and fixed everything. So like giant Spirit Korra.
>Not knowing exactly what it does is okay.
When the entire resolution hinges on it, no, that's absolutely awful storytelling.
>About the rock thing, getting hit is as much of a coincidence as winning any fight, by your standards.
When a random blow that Aang has no control over decides the outcome of the fight, yes, that's a coincidence, and again awful storytelling.
>Honestly, what were you expecting to happen? Aang defeat him without the avatar state?
YES! That was the entire premise of season 3. It created tension, because Aang now had to win on his own merits instead of being handed his victory. It's not like it's implausible, given that he's the most potentially powerful bender on Earth.
>>82921044
>It is a narrative, it is symbolic.
That's not symbolism. That's just contrivance.
>People try to think on Avatar using tropes like it was a real event, when the world actually function in a Wuxia movie logic.
No, I think of Avatar using tropes as if it was a story. A story where the main character has the main conflict fixed for them (twice!) is trash.
>>82921431
I don't really find this the case. I think the absurdly sporadic nature of the episodes is fucking with our perceptions of things. Steven has doubts and is wrong about things, but it takes so long for episodes to come out that those moments seem literally months apart.
Believe in Steven, mang
>>82922080
>Were you expecting him to Win without it?
Yes, that was exactly what was set up. It would have forced Aang to use his training that the entire series was built around.
The Avatar is the most powerful bender on Earth. Acting like divine intervention is necessary for him to win is silly.
>>82921431
>Because seriously, Steven is bordering on Mary Sue status.
He's not perfect. Not everyone likes him or agrees with him, and he's physically weak.
His kindness is his one strength.
If you want a show where bad guys are defeated by force, just watch every action show ever.
>>82913242
get a life
>>82913242
>>82921041
Yeah, that was shit.
Did it not occur to anybody that if they bring his memories back they could also bring Bill back too? If anything they should have done everything they could to keep him an amnesiac. It's not like his life had been particularly good up until that point anyway.
>>82923464
What is Jafaar doing there?
>>82922578
>What was even the point of emphasizing the Cluster to be this huge threat at all?
But it *was* a huge threat. It was a ticking time bomb, and Peridot didn't know for sure whether the drill could stop it.
Steven saving the world with empathy is just as valid and climactic as him suddenly going Super Saiyan, and has vastly more precedent. In fact it would've been more boring if there was no twist and brute force was the only option just as the characters assumed.
Nobody ever thought "just get Steven to negotiate with it", not even him until the last minute. Just because the solution seems obvious in hindsight doesn't mean there was nothing to fear.
>resorted to literally pulling shit out of their asses.
>literally pulling shit
>literally
>LITERALLY
Oh, you're one of *those* people. 3/10 bait, you got me, but that's not hard.
>>82923464
Too bad they all died.
>>82922598
>When the entire resolution hinges on it, no
it's a common element in many movies and comics. I think saying it is 'bad' is mostly your opinion instead of 'no buildup'
>When a random blow that Aang has no control over decides the outcome of the fight, yes
that's every fight ever, anon. For one of them, "a random blow he has no control over wins the fight". You can't call EVERY fight to ever happen a coincidence.
>That was the entire premise of season 3
that absolutely was not. They were out of time and tried a suicide attack. It was never expected or meant for him to win without the avatar state, so they hoped he could connect with it.
expecting a 11 years old to defeat someone with 3x his experience is idiotic. He is only the most powerful bender with the avatar state. Without it he is nothing. Toph and Zuko said he sucks at fire/earthbending, and Ozai had a fucking meteor helping.
>>82922752
>He's not perfect. Not everyone likes him or agrees with him, and he's physically weak.
Dude, like every fucking time something comes up and the Crystal Gems want to respond a certain way, Steven comes up with some kind of other solution that turns out to be the correct one. Steven is always Right and that shit fucking pisses me off. When has Steven ever NOT been Right about something?
Last week's first episode, Garnet tells him to stay put or else he gets hurt. He mind-possesses one of the watermelon people and rallies them to help save the day (which was a fucking joke btw; just absolutely ridiculous but 'whatever'). The episode after that, Peridot wants to physically destroy the Cluster somehow. Steven says no, gets them to emphasize with one another and bubbles them all up.
>"WE JUST NEED EACH OTHER!"
Fuck that shit.
It just annoys me that the CGs are always proven wrong by Steven when they are thousands of years old. He's just a kid. They should be far wiser than he ever is.
Honestly right up until now, I was on the SU train. Now I'm having doubts. I'm going to be disappointed by the end of this, I feel like, if I even decide to keep on watching.
Also, pretty much everyone likes him or grows to like him. Just look at Lapis Lazulli and Peridot. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if he ended up turning Jasper to his side either or Yellow Diamond either.
Also his physical weakness hardly ever comes up and it doesn't even matter anyway, when he's only gotten better with his Gem powers.
>>82923687
>Nobody ever thought "just get Steven to negotiate with it", not even him until the last minute. Just because the solution seems obvious in hindsight doesn't mean there was nothing to fear.
This wasn't even alluded to or foreshadowed. You wouldn't even think you could even reason with it.
If they'd wanted people to accept it, maybe they should've FORESHADOWED IT OR SOMETHING.
>>82923736
>it's a common element in many movies and comics.
What? Asspulls?
>that's every fight ever, anon. For one of them, "a random blow he has no control over wins the fight". You can't call EVERY fight to ever happen a coincidence.
No, in a typical fight (ESPECIALLY a fictional one, where you want purpose) victory would come from something the victor does on purpose.
>It was never expected or meant for him to win without the avatar state, so they hoped he could connect with it.
This was never even implied anywhere. The assumption was that Aang would fight the Firelord as he was. No Avatar State.
>expecting a 11 years old to defeat someone with 3x his experience is idiotic.
That shit already happened all the time in the show. Aang CONSTANTLY defeated much older and more experienced opponents.
>Without it he is nothing
No, without it he's still the Avatar. Master of all four elements and the most physically powerful bender on the planet.
>>82922702
>that was exactly what was set up
no, he was always supposed to use the avatar state. His training was lacking, as said by his group, and he had no way of defeating the firelord in steroids.
He is only the most powerful bender with the avatar state. Without it he is just a kid (that even lost to nonbenders, by the way)
>>82923813
Winning with the Avatar State takes the conflict entirely out of Aang's hands. There's no story if the problem is effortlessly fixed by something the protagonist has had from day one.
>>82921987
I'm curious; what makes you think anon's Hispanic?
>>82923464
i never got the glowing tattoos. is it just ink? if say 1000s of years ago the fire cycle chick got a trampstamp would it glow in the avatar state?
>>82923899
It's connected to chi pathways or some shit.
>>82923897
Because he can't enjoy a show not primarily about violence.
>>82922752
I get where you're both coming from, but I still agree with the first guy. Like, he's kind to the point of pretty much min-maxing charisma in a campaign.
Except Steven hasn't really been shown to have the life experience it usually takes to build charisma. And it's not even min-max because he also has immortality and his shields and bubbles are will most likely become an Absolute Defense when he's older. His faults are made for you to find him cute or relate, not as much to provide him with a particular character depth, at least in the episodes I've seen.
Mary sues aren't flawless; their flaws are just superficial. And other 14 year old with superpowers running around being raised and trained by lunatic PTSD veterans of a civil war would be taking some hard losses around now, but all Steven does is win.
I think the release schedule is screwing with th perception of things, too, but this is a show with a premise based in "How will they pull this off?"
The answer shouldn't just be "Plot contrivance"
>>82913242
Look, this is a kid's show. Aang would never have been allowed to flat-out kill his primary antagonist.
See, for instance, Zuko versus Azula. If this was an anime, it would've been all about the fight - Katara wouldn't have been involved. They would just have fought until Zuko overwhelmed her (and probably killed or crippled her).
But here, the writers emphasized that no, the two of them smashing into each other wasn't the answer, Katara does something clever.
I'm not sure why you're disappointed. In Western media, it will ALWAYS be a cop-out. Hell, even most anime cop-outs when it comes to the final battle! (Gundam is a pretty bad offender, like in Unicorn.)
>>82923809
>What? Asspulls?
how can it be an asspull if it was there the whole time?
>victory would come from something the victor does on purpose
for the perspective of the guy losing, "a random blow he has no control over wins the fight". So yeah, what you just said is every fight ever if you're just going to consider it mere coincidence. It can't be coincidence for one and difference in experience for the other. If Aang got hit, it wasn't coincidence; it was his lack of training.
>The assumption was that Aang would fight the Firelord as he was
only for you, that was expecting a 11 years old to win. Everyone knew he couldn't do it without the avatar state. It's no wonder the show is named 'avatar' either. It's not simply a story about Aang. It's a story about the avatar.
>Aang CONSTANTLY defeated much older and more experienced opponents.
older, yes. More experienced, no. Mooks of the fire nation are stated to be anyone (even Sokka joins). Any experienced character defeats him easily, sometimes even nonbenders for that matter. The only thing he has going for him is that nobody knows how to deal with airbending anymore, and that didn't work against Ozai+comet, as we see.
>without it he's still the Avatar. Master of all four elements
he can't use past lives knowledge, and he sucks at earthbending/firebending; they say it in the show.
>most physically powerful bender on the planet
the avatar is just past lives experience. He can't use all that knowledge if he doesn't use the avatar state.
>>82923899
>Korra with a tramp stamp
Oh Jesus, I need it.
>>82924018
Not killing Ozai was understandable. But having to pull magic bullshit out of your ass TWICE in order to do that was indefensibly hack writing.
>>82923859
>Winning with the Avatar State takes the conflict entirely out of Aang's hands
if it was "only the avatar state", he would have killed Ozai. Aang needed to train and control it to let Ozai live.
>>82924057
There really wasn't anything else they could do to him. Yes, energybending is bullshit, but what was the alternative? Cripple his ass? Blind him? Cut his arms off?
I mean, he was metaphysically castrated and all, but it's as close as you can get. You have to be realistic about these things, when it comes to cartoons. (Again, if this was Fist of the North Star or something, he'd have been exploded.)
>>82924057
>having to pull magic bullshit out of your ass TWICE in order to do that was indefensibly hack writing
for the last time; energybending doesn't serve any purpose. It makes no difference and doesn't help Aang at all. And are you really calling the avatar state 'magic bullshit'?
also, how else was he supposed to win if not with the avatar state? it's a kid vs. firelord on steroids.
>>82924033
>how can it be an asspull if it was there the whole time?
Because it wasn't. As said before, vague mentions of "energy" are NOT establishing the power to take people's bending away.
>for the perspective of the guy losing, "a random blow he has no control over wins the fight".
No. From the perspective of the guy losing, a blow that the victor intentionally made is what won the fight.
>only for you, that was expecting a 11 years old to win. Everyone knew he couldn't do it without the avatar state.
Aang can and has defeated far more powerful and experienced benders without the Avatar state.
>It's not simply a story about Aang. It's a story about the avatar.
Characters are what matter in a story. Bryke's made-up magic system winning the fight, independently of all the characters involved, is a worthless story.
>older, yes. More experienced, no.
What do you call him defeating Zhao?
>>82923924
>Not being a white fuckboi that likes numale shows like SU make you Hispanic
Well might as well learn Spanish now, Cabron.
>>82924143
>for the last time; energybending doesn't serve any purpose. It makes no difference and doesn't help Aang at all.
It solved the killing dilemma for Aang.
>And are you really calling the avatar state 'magic bullshit'?
Yes. Because it was.
>also, how else was he supposed to win if not with the avatar state? it's a kid vs. firelord on steroids.
Using his fucking training. You keep spouting this "He's just a kid" shit, but that has NEVER mattered in the show. The main characters are all kids who kick everyone else's asses.
>>82924173
> numale
/v/ please.
>>82924107
That's just shit plotting.
>>82924000
Exactly.
Steven is charismatic to the point of absurdity. Other characters seem to like him and respect him for no real particular reason. Practically everyone in Beach City loves the kid, except for Lars and really if anything, he's just tsundere as fuck for him, in a non-romantic way. So far, Jasper's the only major villain who doesn't seem to like him very much and with the narrative rules the series seems to have established for itself, Steven will probably charm her too. And then there's Yellow Diamond, plus Blue Diamond, but Steven hasn't even met them yet, so we don't know how they'll react to Steven yet.
Steven may not be 100% perfect, but he's pretty damn close to it.
>>82924107
>Cripple his ass? Blind him? Cut his arms off?
leaving him binded to the earth like he was until Sozin's comet pass and then throwing him in jail.
>>82924208
It's pretty much how I expected it to end. It was unlikely they would kill off Ozai, unless it was some kind of Disney-esque "His powers short out, Aang tries to save him, he tries to kill Aang, he dies ironically."
>>82924228
What jail could hold him? He's still the most powerful Firebender in all of existence. Zuko got his ass beat by his own sister. You know how many loyalists the Firelord still has? Who's going to keep him in jail when he still has super powers?
You're going to post Fire Nation guards to keep him in jail? Good luck.
>>82924156
>vague mentions of "energy"
they have entire episodes dedicated to it, and how you can hipotetically manipulate that energy.
>a blow that the victor intentionally made is what won the fight
Ozai's blow was intentional as well, and not random.
>Aang can and has defeated far more powerful and experienced benders without the Avatar state
only with the help of his friends that happened in the show. Without them, he lost to nonbenders, to the dai li, and even Azula could give him a hard time. You expect him to do better against the Firelord on steroids? the guy that was burning the entire land?
>Bryke's made-up magic system winning the fight, independently of all the characters involved, is a worthless story
1- that's your opinion
2- the journey is what matters. That's where the conflict lies, and If Aang didn't pass through it to control the avatar state, he would have killed Ozai in the end instead of letting him live. It is far more important than a fight in the end.
>What do you call him defeating Zhao?
Zhao abandoned his training and his teacher to serve the army, this is explained. Also, Aang 'fighting' him was basically escaping from him instead of actual fight. Also, even Zuko, the professional jobber, could defeat him.
>>82924173
>being this butthurt
Anon must have hit a nerve.
>>82924107
Freeze him for a hundred years like Aang was
>>82924491
Great, so he can conquer the world in the future. Talk about passing the buck.
>>82924393
>they have entire episodes dedicated to it, and how you can hipotetically manipulate that energy.
They absolutely do not. The closest thing is in The Guru, where what's described has zero in common with what we see in the finale.
>Ozai's blow was intentional as well, and not random.
But it was the opposite of a winning blow for Ozai. It was an accident that he re-activated the Avatar State. Aang won through chance.
>that's your opinion
It's a very basic principle of storytelling.
>the journey is what matters.
And the show threw it out. The journey had no bearing on the finale.
>>82913694
>It's hurting... And obese
Here, ftfy
>>82924192
>It solved the killing dilemma for Aang.
he could literally just throw Ozai in jail with or without power. It wouldn't make a difference.
>Because it was
perhaps you should watch another show
>Using his fucking training
yeah, training 1 year against a guy that trained his life +have a comet powering him up
>that has NEVER mattered in the show
because he was always fighting with his group; not alone, and against mooks most of the time. The FN army let anyone join (even Sokka). Most people don't have proper training. Even with his group, they often lost/had to run from opponents, so why think that Aang alone could do it?
>>82924268
>What jail could hold him
any jail that can hold a firebender, like the boiling rock.
>He's still the most powerful Firebender in all of existence
that's never stated in the show
>You know how many loyalists the Firelord still has
only a couple of them in a small town called New Ozai and that's it.
Also, if you're counting that people will take him out of jail, they can take him out regardless of his powers.
>>82924393
>the journey is what matters.
I hate when people parrot this phrase without understanding what it means.
The journey is where the meat of the story is, yes. But if the journey and ending don't mesh, then your story doesn't work.
Aang story was all about avoiding his problems. The story was kicked off by him running away from his duty as the Avatar, and his evasive nature was the biggest thing holding him back from stopping the Fire Lord.
Then we get to the finale, and Aang spends half of it avoiding his problems until a solution is literally handed to him. And even then, he starts avoiding the fight AGAIN until it's taken completely out of his hands.
The finale of ATLA completely undermines Aang's character arc and the central theme of the series.
>>82923805
>This wasn't even alluded to or foreshadowed. You wouldn't even think you could even reason with it.
>>82924143
Using something he learned, like lightening re-direction, to defeat him.
Hell, even use 2 of the 4 part finale to give him a journey to be able to regain the control over the avatar state. As long as it's HIM consciously making the choices that lead to his victory.
I was seriously annoyed by the finale because it didn't solve any of his issues. The second the fight begins he's back to just constantly running away until magic rock wacks him in his back pussy. He didn't learn how to make a stand and fight head on, he was fighting just like he was back in season 1 like nothing had happened in the interim period.
>>82914130
That was just how the device worked. It's been used in past episodes.
>>82924606
>with or without power
if Ozai still had his powers, his supporters would probably still think of him as great
I mean, we saw what happened when Roku didn't kill the Fire Lord, which came back to bite him
But when Aang took Ozai's powers away, it effectively wiped him from the royal line, so how could he be fire lord without being a fire bender
and yes, the earth king of omashu isn't a bender, but maybe not all cultures in the avatar universe are the same
>>82924393
>the journey is what matters. That's where the conflict lies, and If Aang didn't pass through it to control the avatar state, he would have killed Ozai in the end instead of letting him live. It is far more important than a fight in the end.
The journey is a build up. It's important because it gives the viewer emotional context and investment, which creates payoff. When that build up ultimately means almost nothing to that finale, it seriously effects the emotional impact and satisfaction one gets from that ending. That is what happened with Sozin's Comet to a lot of people.
>>82924562
>They absolutely do not
swamp episode, and the guru comes to mind. The guru tell us that there is no difference between the 4 bending techniques, that we must bend the power within us, and the entire episode is about the chakras. It is explained in the swamp episode that every living being have this kind of energy. Aang even uses that energy to find his friends, so he even used that power before.
>Aang won through chance
However chance (different from mere coincidence) was only a small part of that battle, like it is a small part of every battle. You're not seeing the obvious here: Aang couldn't win by himself. Proposing that "he should win anyway" is just as much of a stretch as being hit on that point.
>It's a very basic principle of storytelling
According to you
>The journey had no bearing on the finale
did you even read what i wrote? Aang wouldn't be able to spare Ozai's life if he did not have control over it. Hell, he would have killed many more other people (like Zuko in the comics) if he does not control the avatar state. The journey was important.
>>82924681
>and Aang spends half of it avoiding his problems until a solution is literally handed to him
he literally had the opportunity to kill Ozai before avatar state/energybending. He could redirect lightning to him and chose not to and finally make his choice of not killing. That's not running away at all. Aang chose to face the hard path when the easy one presented itself.
>>82924852
>swamp episode, and the guru comes to mind. The guru tell us that there is no difference between the 4 bending techniques, that we must bend the power within us, and the entire episode is about the chakras. It is explained in the swamp episode that every living being have this kind of energy. Aang even uses that energy to find his friends, so he even used that power before.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. This has absolutely zero hint about taking bending away.
>However chance (different from mere coincidence) was only a small part of that battle
Aang getting hit in the back, re-activating his Avatar State, 100% decided the outcome of that fight.
>Aang couldn't win by himself.
He didn't win at all. His powers won the fight for him.
>Aang wouldn't be able to spare Ozai's life if he did not have control over it.
If the implication that Aang really did master the Avatar State at the end of Season 2, that just opens up another problem - Aang acts no differently after supposedly being "detached".
>>82924916
That absolutely is running away from his problems. Aang hates the idea of killing - He freaks out after he nearly kills Ozai, and becomes a whimpering wreck curled up in a ball until the fight is taken out of his hands.
>>82924606
>>82924636
>>82924107
The writers seriously put themselves in a bad spot with the finale. The only ending that really makes any sense is KILLING Ozai, because otherwise he's still a constant threat for any regime power that they put in place to replace him. The massive number of loyalists that still exist within and without the fire nation would try to constantly get him back in power.
It also would have made Aang's character that much more interesting. He was presented with a choice in the end, the easy way (letting Ozai live) that would have created future problems, or the hard way (killing him) that would have solved the issue permanently. He would have to admit and realize that sometimes, people really do have to die in order for the world to be a better place.
Instead of forcing the choice upon him, the writers gave him a cop-out, which destroyed all of that potential, satisfying drama and growth for him.
The writers made a show with very adult themes and storytelling for a children's show, but were ultimately limited by that very fact. It kind of sucks. Wish they could have bumped up the age rating for the show, just for that last season.
>>82924728
>Using something he learned, like lightening re-direction, to defeat him
Aang had one opportunity to do that on that fight and decided not to do it because, as stated before, it's a very dangerous technique and it would kill Ozai. Aand chose the hard path and decided not to kill. That's a development from his character that would get the easy way out.
>As long as it's HIM consciously making the choices that lead to his victory
if he didn't have control over the avatar state in the end, he would have killed Ozai. he had control.
>He didn't learn how to make a stand and fight head on
a 11 years old fighting head-on against the firelord on steroids is not recommended.
Seriously, if Aang had defeated the firelord, it would be just as much of a stretch than what happened.
>>82924836
>if Ozai still had his powers, his supporters would probably still think of him as great
>probably
>it effectively wiped him from the royal line
it is shown that people had no issue with him not having powers on the comics to put him back in power.
>>82924837
>When that build up ultimately means almost nothing to that finale
Aang was only able to avoid killing Ozai because of the journey, as i said.
Again, it's a show about the avatar, the strongest bender in existence, you can't possibly have expected him to have a hard time on some epic fight, or Aang alone defeating the firelord.
>>82921969
Like this anon said >>82922061 I meant Opal's character arc
>>82925016
Well, they bumped it up for lesbians.
Seriously, we can get lesbians but not even ONE murder? Come on! (Also, Zuko was robbed. Why the fuck was Katara even there?)
>>82925178
>we can get lesbians but not even ONE murder?
There was plenty of murder in Korra. Someone's head exploded. There was even that murder-suicide on the boat.
>>82925050
>Aang had one opportunity to do that on that fight and decided not to do it because, as stated before, it's a very dangerous technique and it would kill Ozai. Aand chose the hard path and decided not to kill. That's a development from his character that would get the easy way out.
That's not the hard path. That's the easy path, the one he's most comfortable with, and one that he's scared to leave. Not killing Ozai means that he has the opportunity to kill you, your friends, and kill/subjugate the rest of the planet. And even if you defeat him without killing him, you run the risk of him causing major problems in the future, and possibly giving him the opportunity to finish what he started.
The hard choice, for Aang, is killing Ozai. Learning that the world sometimes requires violence, and sometimes a person needs to die in order for millions to live. Killing can sometimes be the moral choice. That gives his character real depth, because he had to change everything he believes and holds dear to him in order to come to that conclusion.
>if he didn't have control over the avatar state in the end, he would have killed Ozai. he had control.
Why did he have control? What, at any point in the series, points towards him gaining the ability to have control over it?
>a 11 years old fighting head-on against the firelord on steroids is not recommended.
Yeah, but that's what makes it a compelling story. He's the avatar, but he's still a kid, vs. the most powerful firebender on the planet. It's a David vs. Goliath story. He doesn't have to totally overpower him, he just needs to use some other aspect of his character, or take advantage of one of Ozai's weaknesses. Could be pride, could be rage...any character flaw that could weaken or distract him. Unfortunately Ozai did not get that level of characterization...se la vi
>>82925211
That was kind of a cop-out too, though. Self-disposing villain and all that.
Shit, Korra was kind of terrible, wasn't she?
>>82924959
We know the power exists, that people are affected by it, that it can be used for some purpose, and even some of it's functions. Does that looks like "out of nowhere" or "asspull" to you? or do you think they have to tell you everything from the get-go?
>Aang getting hit in the back, re-activating his Avatar State, 100% decided the outcome of that fight
Aang being able to avoid all of Ozai's attacks also 100% decided the outcome of the fight. Ozai missing his attacks also decided it 100%. Aang chosing not redirecting lightgning to Ozai also decided on the same percentage.
It is just a part of the fight.
>He didn't win at all
we weren't expecting him to. We were expecting him to have control over the avatar state and not kill Ozai.
>Aang acts no differently after supposedly being "detached"
Most of what he learned to control the avatar state was to "be able to do", and not "to do". It's hard to explain, but the part about Love is the best example. He didn't have to stop being attached to Katara (some avatars even were married); he just had to being able to do it; like he did in the end of S02. He doesn't have to follow his entire life without being able to be worried, he just needs to be able at some point to give up his fear. He changed, it is just hard to see.
>>82925178
Mako murdered the water arm lady, Bolin made the lava guy kill himself, Su exploded the head of the sparky sparky boom lady, zahir murdered the earth queen pretty brutally.
That's just in the 3rd season. Plenty of death.
>>82925292
Shit, I must've forgotten about that. Weren't those all accidents except the last one, though?
>>82925000
>That absolutely is running away from his problems
chosing how to deal with them is not running away from them.
>>82925016
>The massive number of loyalists that still exist
only in new Ozai, a small town, and it was solved.
> the easy way (letting Ozai live)
are you kidding? killing Ozai was the easy way out; Aang even had a chance of doing so. Letting him live and then dealing with all the bullshit that comes is hard.
>>82913242
Yeah it's kind of cheap that they can just suddenly materialize light sabers from their eyes and mouths.
>>82925306
Hell no, Mako purposely lightening'd the water noarms was bending and was ensconced in. He did it because he knew the water would conduct the electricity and fry her. Su definitely meant to wrap the metal around SSBL's head in order to kill her.
Only one I mentioned that could possibly be construed as unintentional was Bolin vs. lava guy
>>82925243
>That's the easy path
option 1: use a cheap shot and kill Ozai with lightning
option 2: almost get yourself killed fighting him, use your powers to let him alive, take him to prison, make sure no one helps him escape, and deal with the rebels in a way that restores order to the FN.
seriously, which one is harder?
>Not killing Ozai means that he has the opportunity to kill you, your friends, and kill/subjugate the rest of the planet. And even if you defeat him without killing him, you run the risk of him causing major problems in the future
having to deal with the consequences is what makes it harder. Notice that we're not discussing which option is the best; just which one is harder to do.
>What, at any point in the series, points towards him gaining the ability to have control over it
end of S02, when he opened the last chakra needed to control the avatar state
>but that's what makes it a compelling story
So if your main character doesn't jump straight into the fire to get himself killed, it's not "compelling"?
>>82925350
>only in new Ozai, a small town, and it was solved.
This whole thing is dumb. The fire nation has been brainwashed on North Korea levels for 100 years. That there's not massive numbers of dissidents of the new regime is one of the biggest pieces of bullshit in post-TLA comics.
>are you kidding? killing Ozai was the easy way out; Aang even had a chance of doing so. Letting him live and then dealing with all the bullshit that comes is hard.
For Aang, killing him IS the hard choice. You are not providing any evidence to the contrary.
Aang believes killing to be the worst thing you can do, and that in no situation is it morally acceptable. In order for him to win and for the world to truly be safe from this threat, he needs to kill Ozai. This is a direct challenge to everything he believes he is. Making the choice to kill vs. not kill is character-defining. He DID NOT have to make that choice due to the lion turtle, which is why it pisses me off and why I consider it a cop-out.
>>82925475
>Option 1 vs Option 2
To me? Option 2. To Aang, the character for whom these events are actually occurring? Option 1. I think some people are better off dead, Aang's principles say 'No killing is justified, no matter what'.
Ozai is a genocidal maniac who is trying to kill me and enslave the known world. If I let him live, he can possibly get back into power and try again. Remember how well letting Napoleon live went for Europe? It would be morally irresponsible to let him live.
>end of S02, when he opened the last chakra needed to control the avatar state
If he actually did that, his personality would have changed. Hell, he probably would have been ok with killing Ozai, because he is able to let his earthly attachments (his principles, his morality) go, thereby allowing him to do what needed to be done.
>So if your main character doesn't jump straight into the fire to get himself killed, it's not "compelling"?
It'd be a fuckload more compelling than the dumb one-sided Dragon Ball Z fight we got that could have occurred S1E1, yeah.
>>82925517
see >>82925475
also, if killing is hard for him, following his beliefs is harder on that situation.
>>82925738
How? He's comfortable in his beliefs, and challenging your most cherished beliefs is hard.
He doesn't. He just runs away instead.
>That faggot who keeps saying "He's only 11 years old!"
3 of the most powerful benders in the series, and arguably the most powerful one of all, are children.
This is the same show where a blind girl (no older than Aang), with no formal training, single-handedly and effortlessly defeated half a dozen profressional Earthbenders at once.
>>82925685
>If he actually did that, his personality would have changed
this was already discussed; No. He doesn't need to change his personality or his ways on his day-to-day life. He just needs to "be able to". He needs to be able to let go of his fear, and of his loved ones. This doesn't mean he can't have it. Many avatars were married and had kids, for example.
>allowing him to do what needed to be done.
>needs to
he doesn't need to kill anyone. We don't kill people because "they might commit another crime"; at least not in civilized countries. Why so bloodthristy?
>could have occurred S1E1
>no comet
>no control over avatar state
just no.
>>82925137
>Aang was only able to avoid killing Ozai because of the journey, as i said
No, he was only able to avoid killing Ozai because of two things that happened at the last minute. If Aang's journey had any part in it, there wouldn't be a problem.
>>82925805
>How
he had to get his ass kicked and almost get killed dozens of times on that fight just to follow his belief, and then had to deal with the consequences of his choice. That is harder than simply breaking his moral code.
>>82925973
>because of two things that happened at the last minute
As was already discussed:
1. energybending serves no purpose on that fight at all. Aang could literally just throw Ozai in jail at that point with or without bending
2. if he simply activated the avatar state, he would have killed Ozai without any control over it.
>>82925243
>That's not the hard path. That's the easy path, the one he's most comfortable with, and one that he's scared to leave.
Fucking THIS.
The story up to that point worked so well because it forced Aang out of his comfort zone. Bringing him back into it destryoed all tension, and absolutely WAS Aang avoiding his problems.
>>82925992
>and then had to deal with the consequences of his choice.
What consequences? He was handed everything he wanted with no downsides.
>>82914250
except the part when he fire bended in the avatar state on crescent island.
the avatar state is literally all his past lives knowledge. aka learning the 4 elements hundreds of times over
>>82925992
Aang absolutely did take the easy way. He literally hid in a ball until the problem was fixed for him.
>>82926069
>What consequences
The risk of Ozai escaping, and the whole situation in the FN. It is far from easy, and whatever Ozai do from that point on is his fault. And again, it didn't come at zero cost; he had to be beaten to a pulp, and had to go through his journey to learn how to control the avatar state.
The other way would be to go straight to the firelord, without learning how to control the avatar state, and killing him; or just use that cheap shot with lightning to kill him. This is what you're proposing is hard.
>>82925958
>this was already discussed; No. He doesn't need to change his personality or his ways on his day-to-day life. He just needs to "be able to". He needs to be able to let go of his fear, and of his loved ones. This doesn't mean he can't have it. Many avatars were married and had kids, for example.
1. We don't know if every Avatar has to go through this in order to control the Avatar state. Korra certainly didn't need to. There may be different paths to getting to this level of control.
2. Aang is clearly unable to let go of Earthly attachments. Look at him trying to pursue his Honor in the first episode of the 3rd season. He does dumb, dangerous shit just so people won't think he's failed. Look at him running away from his problems after Day of Black Sun. Look at him unable to let go of his shame and fear of firebending in The Masters. Your theory completely falls apart if you look at him at any other instance in the 3rd season outside of the finale.
>he doesn't need to kill anyone. We don't kill people because "they might commit another crime"; at least not in civilized countries. Why so bloodthristy?
Look again at my Napoleon example. We don't do it now because we live in a different time. Also Ozai is responsible for a huge number of deaths, enslavement, and brainwashing his populace, each of which is arguably something that can warrant a death sentence.
>>82926121
only if you forget him getting his ass handed to him on that fight as well. That's not easy. Easy would be to do that cheap shot with lightning and then go home.
>>82913456
I waited 4 months for this awful cliffhanger to end and all i got was a lousy 5 minutes cop out.
At least i'm glad it didn't leave enough loose ends so it leaves you wanting to know what happens next this time, that way i can actually stop watching.
>>82926209
It's much easier for Aang to defend himself from an attacker than to kill someone. The show demonstrates this at every turn.
Aang's weakness was never his fighting skill, but his relucance to fight. Aang didn't learn jack shit in his journey.
>>82926173
>This is what you're proposing is hard.
For Aang? Abso-fucking-lutely.
>>82926286
>>82926192
The more I look over ATLA the shittier I realize it was.
>>82926192
>We don't know if every Avatar has to go through this in order to control the Avatar state
it is said by the guru that this is how you control the avatar state; by opening your chakras and shit. Korra was an asspull. In any way it doesn't matter because in Aang's case it is "being able to let go" only, and not strictly following a rule, as the Guru says.
>Aang is clearly unable to let go of Earthly attachments
he was able to let go of Katara in the end of S02 by literally ignoring her.
>Look at him trying to pursue his Honor in the first episode of the 3rd season
as i said, it doesn't mean he cannot have honor; it's about "being able to let go" when a situation arises. Same thing for the other cases you said. Also, it's not a 'theory', it's what is explained in the show.
>Ozai is responsible for a huge number of deaths, enslavement, and brainwashing his populace, each of which is arguably something that can warrant a death sentence
if you live in the United States, perhaps. In a civilized country, you go to jail.
>>82913242
>Cop-out
>Aang takes the single most important thing from Ozai at the time he's at his most powerful
>Not incredibly more effective at establishing a satisfying conclusion than if he had just murdered him
>>82913242
>>82926173
YES IT'S HARD FOR AANG JESUS. It's a terrible moral choice for Aang.
Hell, the series demonstrates that this choice is SO HARD for him that he may choose to die before he kills somebody else. That's an interesting choice for him in its own right, but the series would need to go in depth on the consequences of that for it to be interesting, which it can't, because this is the finale. So instead Lion Turtle Avatar State asspull.
>>82926286
>It's much easier for Aang to defend himself from an attacker than to kill someone
avoid getting killed is hard, anon, and he is literally putting his life at stake for doing so. Risking your life to do the right thing is much harder than simply doing the wrong thing.
>>82926316
He will feel bad for a couple of days then forget about it. The other option is harder, and he literally have to put his life on the line to do it.
>>82926473
Trying to follow his beliefs is harder. It's literally more effort, and live knowing Ozai could escape and fuck shit up again, which would be his fault.
>the series demonstrates that this choice is SO HARD for him that he may choose to die before he kills somebody else
which also shows the path he followed is even harder, to uphold his morals putting his life on the line instead of resorting to a cheap shot.
>the series would need to go in depth on the consequences of that for it to be interesting
not really. We all know it can lead to consequences, and it did in the comics. They don't need to spell it out to you like an rpg, "there may be consequences!".
>>82926410
It's a cop-out because it removes the entire dilemma the finale revolved around, only by suddenly giving Aang new powers at the last minute.
>>82926392
>it is said by the guru that this is how you control the avatar state; by opening your chakras and shit.
He never once says 'THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO THIS'. We have no way of knowing if what you're saying is true. This is a buddhist-based religion, therefore we know that there are many paths that lead to the same destination.
>Korra was an asspull.
Are you getting my human goat?
>he was able to let go of Katara in the end of S02 by literally ignoring her.
He was in the process of allowing that to happen, then he was rudely interrupted by DEATH.
>as i said, it doesn't mean he cannot have honor; it's about "being able to let go" when a situation arises. Same thing for the other cases you said. Also, it's not a 'theory', it's what is explained in the show.
Honor is 100% earthly attachment. It is a combination of pride and shame as dictated by society. If he completed the transition to enlightenment, he wouldn't give a shit. It wouldn't be hard for him to let that go and go along with the plan.
>if you live in the United States, perhaps. In a civilized country, you go to jail.
There is no European country that is currently dealing with a situation even remotely close to what ATLA is. Hitler was imprisoned. Lenin was banished. Napoleon was imprisoned. How many millions of lives would have been saved had these people been killed for their death penalty worthy crimes?
>>82926602
>it removes the entire dilemma the finale revolved around
goddamn it.. again: it doesn't change anything. Literally. He could just throw him in jail with powers, doesn't make a difference.
>>82926598
Are you incapable of grasping that making that moral choice is harder for Aang than the physical exertion used to fight?
>>82926410
Sure was convenient that he learned how to do so right before the final battle after crying about wanting a better way to stop Ozai than killing him, eh?
It's just a painfully contrived deus ex machina.
>>82926660
Only because of the OTHER asspull. And even then, saying he cpuld throw a still-powered Ozai in jail is arguable.
>>82926653
>He never once says 'THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO THIS'
he does says 'that's how you do it'. Saying there is another way is kind of an assumption. There is no reason to believe there is another way so let's not resort to head-canons. If a character is showing how to control the avatar state, don't assume there is another way unless stated otherwise, and it would be stupid to assume it is only different for Aang.
>This is a buddhist-based religion
buddhism doesn't even exist in ATLA.
>Are you getting my human goat
what does that even mean? anyway, some people defend that there was this kind of buildup in Korra when she lost her bending, but let's not go there.
>then he was rudely interrupted by DEATH
he didn't die, and he did get in avatar state. That's why he had a hard time connecting again to the past lives, we assume.
>If he completed the transition to enlightenment, he wouldn't give a shit
not according to the guru. He just needs to 'be able to let go' of it. He can have as much honor as he wants. Again, other avatars had honor, and loved ones and that didn't stop them from controlling the avatar state. You don't need to give them all up.
>How many millions of lives would have been saved had these people been killed for their death penalty worthy crimes
it's not up to you or anyone to decide who lives and who dies, or when it's okay to kill psychopaths.
>>82926497
You're all thinking way too much about this, probably more than Bryke ever did.
All they wanted to do was to figure out how to throw in some arbitrary red vs blue battle that would make the ending seem more cinematic or some bullshit. Basically it was them trying to appeal to the art kids and telling everyone else to fuck off.
For that matter, what kind of sense does it make that Ozai's "red" energy fights back against Aang's "blue" energy? Is there any kind of establishment of Ozai having a strong spiritual connection or something?
Also it was retarded that they put Toph up on a fucking blimp for the entire ending battle when any sane strategist would put her on the ground where she can actually do something, but that's an entire different thing.
>>82926692
>making that moral choice is harder for Aang than the physical exertion used to fight
it's not only the physical part (that by the way involves putting his life on the line); Aang will have to live with the consequences and make sure he doesn't escape. You're saying that a few weeks feeling bad for what he did is harder than that.
>>82926729
>Only because of the OTHER asspull
that's debatable. Getting your powers back by getting hit on the same spot you were hit to lose your powers is reasonable; it didn't come "out of nowhere", and getting hit in a fight is hardly a stretch. But again, what are the other options? have a 11 years old defeat the Firelord on steroids?
>saying he cpuld throw a still-powered Ozai in jail is arguable
that would imply they can't imprison any firebender ever. They have boiling rock, if everything else fails.
>>82926930
About Toph, the ground was being burned, and they were short on people. They absolutely needed her up there.
>>82926930
Not the guy you're replying to, but:
The whole point of the final battle was that Aang's, a child's aversion to killing and will to do the right thing, was strong enough to make the fucking Spirits take the human side, instead of ignoring the whole ordeal like they've been ignoring humanity all along. He convinced a fucking titan to give a damn about people when he was talking to the spirits on its back.
Which is the Avatar's job all along: to unite the spirit and the human worlds. It's in the first fucking episodes. So the lion turle spirit granted him his one wish, where through the series it was Aang appeasing the spirits and doing their will.
Also, Toph was the only metal bender, and they needed her to tank while Zuko+Suki hopped around.
>>82924705
>false equivalence:the post
>>82920022
Who dis?
>>82927151
>Zuko+Suki
>>82913836
Sauce ?
>>82927229
Oh you know what I meant.
>>82927151
>He convinced a fucking titan to give a damn about people when he was talking to the spirits on its back.
No he didn't.
>>82927255
Oh right, my mistake, that was me imagining the whole 2nd part of the 4-episode arc.
