So what exactly is wrong with the Christ imagery in MoS and BvS? Why does this trigger people?
>>82905883
People don't read comics so they think it's new. He's been compared to God or a god more often though.
extremely cringey
>>82905938
true, but there it's more subtle
here snyder is literally shooting scenes that are copies of famous christ artworks, it's just so ham handed
Because it's easy.
>>82905883
Normal people don't like it because it's pretentious
Superfags hate it because it breaks the "he is just a normal guy" meme while at the same time they worship him as this symbol of hope for everyone in the planet and sing celebrations to his actions full of humanity and caring
>>82905883
Like all things Zack Snyder It is done poorly and hamfisted. The main difference between a fan of MoS and someone with taste is that most of us can't enjoy an impossibly sloppy execution just because we like superman.
>>82905883
>DC: Tee hee, we be god
Box office failure
>Marvel: Lets allude to cap revering God
Box Office success, every single time
Know your role, human.
>>82905883
Because it comes off as overly preachy and dramatic in Zack's mobies where as in the comics it's not forced up our asses
>>82905988
I love Superman and Peace On Earth, but there was this scene.
It "triggers" people because it has no substance and it's lazy and obvious.
It's babies first symbolism, yes we get it Superman is a christ-like figure who is "killed" by his government and returns after he was thought dead to save the world. That doesn't make the movie good or interesting. It adds a potential layer of depth but doesn't deliver since there is no real exploration of the christ themes beyond imagery and superficial similarities.
>>82905883
I think it's because of how blatant it is. Like I'm an atheist and even I can enjoy a good Biblical analogy in storytelling, but when it's done like your image where they forsake any kind of subtext or subtly and just beat you over the head it comes off as lazy and condescending.
>>82905883
It's lazy and shoved down your throat
People would ignore it if it were less frequent.
But the overabundance of it just makes people realize that Snyder and co. can't take these characters seriously as superheroes and JUST superheroes.
It doesn't come across as "heh, and when you think about it, isn't he like Jesus? :)". It's much more like
"God, I fucking hate these 'superheroes.' So unrealistic. And obviously, I know my audience perfectly well, better than anyone, including Marvel. So I'll play down the heroics and play up the stuff that audiences ACTUALLY care about: religion and Christ imagery. Man oh man, this is such a great idea, too, because to reiterate, I hate the concept of superheroes."
It's just dumb. It's on the level of Matrix Revolutions Christ imagery.
>>82905883
Sometimes, it's one of those benign things about western society that will always pop-up,
But when it's in MoS or BvS: it's just to make things easier to digest for plebs, because god forbid they get confused or offended, or it's just jerk-off material for autistic "classic studies" cocksuckers, such as BvS Lex.Which is contrary to a lot of the DC material that I like: the comics are supposed to be able to produce halfway original imagery that, while certain things will always be recognizably classical, comics media should be able to avoid relying on old tropes as crutches.
>>82906017
>while at the same time they worship him as this symbol of hope for everyone in the planet and sing celebrations to his actions full of humanity and caring
I don't, I fucking hate that shit. Only Morrison did it right, and it really only worked because it was part of a short Elseworld story.
>>82905883
It's completely lacking subtlety and incredibly pretentious.
>>82905938
People don't read bible so they think it's just a bunch of faggy pretentiousness.
>>82906110
I think the main difference with that, is at least what I got out of Peace On Earth was that Supes isn't Christ, he isn't God, he isn't any holy figure and doesnt have the real power to save people.
>>82905883
Absolutely nothing but people like to over emphasize it because these plebs can only notice surface details.
>>82905988
What's wrong with using classical imagery? I'd argue it's good cinematography, those are some nicely composed shots.
>Making things easier to digest for American Evangelicals, ie the plebest American movie-going audience
>Pretentious
>>82906411
Yeah, what Peace on Earth was trying to convey is that no one man can solve the worlds problems. It has to be a group effort of everyone working together.
>>82905883
Christ imagery is one of the laziest ways to make it seem like you're "saying something".
>>82906484
Yeah, even Supes can't do it. I haven't seen BvS, but what I got from MoS with is christ like imagery was almost the reverse of that. PoE showed even Superman can't fix these issues, but MoS just compares him to God and its stupid
>>82905883
Because it's poorly done.
>>82905883
it triggers fedoracore neckbeards to the point that they rape themselves with bananas.
>>82906551
>compares him to God
But not really.
>>82906448
HEY
DID YOU KNOW
SUPERMAN IS KINDA LIKE JESUS?
HERE LOOK
LOOK, IT LOOKS LIKE THAT ONE PAINTING BY THAT GUY
RIGHT?
LOOKS LIKE JESUS RIGHT?
DOES JESUS THINGS
IT'S SO DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPham handed
Because it wasn't exactly subtle. At least in man of steel
It was shoved down the audiences throats.
We get it, he's a Jesus analogy
Because /co/ has the attention span of a 12 year old and didn't pick up that Superman hated being seen as a savior figure. Most of /co/ missed that throughout the films he hates being associated with a God, every scene has him frowning anytime these connections are made, and it's not until he makes a very human action (sacrificing himself for Lois and not for the world) at the end that he actually becomes "Superman".
Notice how he never has the S curl until the final scene. Notice how his real body is buried in a small funeral away from the monument telling people to remember him like Christ. Notice how at the end Wonder Woman makes a quip that the people of Metropolis never knew him as a man so they buried him as they would a demigod.
But I forgot where I am, so sorry, let me start over
Huuuuuurrrr Snyder a hack duuuuurrrrrr
>>82906765
>shoved down the audiences throats
There's the stain glass in the church and the pose from OP and they are on screen for a few seconds.
/co/ really does make mountains out of mole hills.
>>82906767
>Huuuuuurrrr Snyder a hack duuuuurrrrrr
Pretty much yeah, a few salient points doesn't erase the film being a clusterfuck.
All I'm getting from this thread is that it's pretentious, but that seems like a silly reason to hate on a Supermann movie
>>82906887
No one's sole complaint about MoS is the christ imagery, it's a single turd in a sea of piss.
>>82906980
a nugget in a jar full of piss would you say?
>>82906859
This. /co/ has completely overblown the imagery and has exaggerate it merely for the sake of argument.
>>82905883
Because it's really ''in your face'' kind of cinematography and Snyder goes overboard with it.
Snyder isn't a christian.
He doesn't believe that Jesus is a savior and by painting Superman as Jesus, he himself does not believe that Superman is a savior which is why he is so broody and incapable of showcasing love and care beyond saving people (out of duty)
>but you don't need to be religious to use religious imagery
Countless great Superman stories are able to write Superman as a great savior and an idol to look up to without needing biblical analogies, there is no reason to need to say Superman is Jesus who is a savior when you can just say Superman is a savior
>>82906859
>>82907058
Because those are the examples of christian imaginery.
You also have that shot of that woman reaching out into the air at Superman.
The fact that people praise this film student-tier cinematography is baffling.
>>82906887
Superman is the least pretentious superhero in the world. He's one hundred percent genuine. Playing up just that one aspect of him and doing so in such a shallow way just sort of underlines how little Snyder grasps the character outside of his very own narrow conceptions.Like how he's Moses and not Jesus.
>>82907106
>Because those are the examples of christian imaginery.
>You also have that shot of that woman reaching out into the air at Superman.
>The fact that people praise this film student-tier cinematography is baffling.
Well what else is she going to do in that scenario? Play dead until Supes grabs her?
>>82905883
Because it's entry level cinematography, and Snyder, who is at his 50's, is still doing this.
He goes completely out of his way to show these shots.
>>82907150
The fact that the woman is randomly reaching out with her hand to Superman is absolutely retarded and out of place.
It's like that moment in MoS when Superman drowns in skulls even though that scene comes out of nowhere.
Snyder has been always a music video director, he doesn't know how to make these shots happen fluidly, he always goes out of his way to show this because that's what he did throughout most of his career.
>>82907143
Superman stopped being Moses the moment the jews lost control of the character. You pander to western audiences you prop up the jew on a stick, not the fictional baby killer that should have drowned in the river.
>>82905883
1. It's blatant and not interesting beyond the surface level.
2. It doesn't really serve the movie properly. While the idea is to give Superman a sense of (generic) Godhood, it ends up feeling like they're trying to give him a sense of Christhood (because it uses stricly Christian imagery only), which isn't the same thing, or consistent with the way he acts.
3. It's sometimes so forced that it makes you scratch your head. Because of it Superman was 33 in MoS post spaceship. Which means:
>he spent fucking 14 years doing nothing of interest and not growing as a character
>he acts incredibly teenagey for a 30 year old
>it prevents any cool "young Superman" stories (like LOSH) from happening in this continuity
4. Some people don't like religion.
It's a lot easier to disguise a lack of characterization by just saying "Person A is like Person B who is kind" over and over again instead of saying "Person A is kind"
It's a common idea executed as if it's a genius one. Would be fine if it was just there but it seems like it's done because they think it's groundbreaking.
overdone, boring, lazy
>>82905883
Because he has spent 2 movies already hamfisting this idea.
The few people who noticed this got it half-way through MoS.
>>82907208
>It's like that moment in MoS when Superman drowns in skulls even though that scene comes out of nowhere.
The entire scene was about Zod recreating Krypton by killing the Earth and its people, did you watch the movie or just get your info from shit posts?
>>82905883
Done tastefully, it could actually be quite good. There's been Christ imagery in Superman comics before and I've never minded it. However, it's hamhanded and isn't so much imagery as it is Snyder grabbing you by the back of the head and shoving your face into the screen and yelling "LOOK HOW CLEVER I AM".
>>82905883
Because it's basic iconography when your country is mostly Christian. It's likely Snyder using his own ubringing or his own religion to bear on these characters. Which is fine, your upbringing affects your art, but Snyder uses it so heavyhandedly and so blatantly that it removes any subtlety from its inclusion and kills the epic theme that he's going for by using these images in the first place. He also often forgoes actual character development because he thinks he can get away with having recognizable characters be recognizable as other characters.
Plus, Jesus doesn't have too much to do with Superman at his earliest conception. He was Moses and Samson, with the Nietzchean Ubermensch as a canvas. Man of Steel, story wise, focuses more on Kal as an immigrant, and features a doomsday machine that splits an ocean, but there's next to fuck all Moses imagery in the film.
>>82905883
Like someone's said, it's pretentious, and it also seems kind of hollow because it's not really supported by the narrative in the movie, where Superman is not particularly Christ-like or spiritual at all.
Honestly, I always found it weird when people cast Superman as a Christ figure, he's not a messiah and he's (mostly) not a martyr, either. Some writers can make it work, but it's kind of a pointless analogy to me.
>>82906767
Literally everybody gets that, anon.
>>82907312
Except this thread is proof they didn't.
But thanks for playing.
>>82907298
That scene was pure symbolism and came out of nowhere.
If he wanted to do something less subtle he would have to put Superman nailed in a cross.
>>82907246
>4. Some people don't like religion.
Retarded complaint. You're telling me people will through a bitch fit because some guy turned water into wine but a guy flying with no propulsion system and able to lift things a million times his own body weight is A-okay?
>>82907100
Synder was a Christian scientist.
>>82905883
>So what exactly is wrong with the Christ imagery in MoS and BvS?
It's tired in comics?
I wonder how it would be if Snyder spent all the effort put into symbolism into making a cohesive story.
>>82907100
>Snyder grew up in Greenwich, Conn. His mother was a painter and a photographer; his father was head of human resources at American Can and a sports fanatic like his son. The family belonged to the Christian Science Church, whose members believe that sin and illness are nothing but illusions. Snyder attended the Daycroft School, a Christian Science school in Greenwich, and a summer camp run by the church in Maine. “It was pretty hard-core,” he says.
>Snyder’s religious upbringing made him receptive to books and movies with sacred themes. He was overwhelmed by Star Wars when his mother took him to see it in 1977. The Force reminded him of the heavenly powers Christian Scientists believe in. The same year, his mother gave him a movie camera, and he started making short stop-action films.
Also
>Snyder spent a year studying painting at the Heatherley School of Fine Art in London and then transferred to the Art Center School of Design in Pasadena, where one classmate was Michael Bay, future purveyor of cinematic mayhem.
Huh.
>>82905883
Because he has been hamfisting the idea that people see Superman as a God for two movies already.
We get it, people think of him as Jesus, he doesn't seem to like it.
Move on.
I just hope the ''leaks'' about Justice League are true, because I can see that Snyder will revive Superman 3 days after his death.
>>82907246
>it's blatant
As opposed to being an esoteric reference? Yeah the use of messianic imagery is recognizable because Christianity is one the three major religion.
>>82907329
But that's wrong you retard.
>>82907390
I'm not going to say the Christ pose by Atom isn't intentional or anything, but the pose itself is just a generic pose that works when a hero is captive or hurt. How else is he supposed to be held down? An X pose? Arms above the head? One arm in, one arm out, one leg shaking all about?
>>82907441
>because I can see that Snyder will revive Superman 3 days after his death.
They literally moved the release date of the movie just so it would open on Good Friday.
>>82907349
It's not a complaint, I'm explaining to you that
>You're telling me people will through a bitch fit because some guy turned water into wine but a guy flying with no propulsion system and able to lift things a million times his own body weight is A-okay?
Yes.
>>82907157
>went out of his way
Have to call bullshit. None of those shots were particularly awkward as if Synder hard to latbor to include. All of them seem pretty natural.
>>82907442
>As opposed to being an esoteric reference?
No as opposed to being subtle.
It's not messianic imagery it's Christ imagery, exclusively, it doesn't show a savior it shows a guy making the cross with his arms.
>>82907335
>symbolism
You wish
"I just like skulls, I don't know why" - Zack Snyder.
Because as hard as he tried, he fucked it up. Christ like imagery is all well and good, but you've got to do more than male him brooding or put him in front of some painted glass. Jesus had friends. Jesus went to parties. Well, weddings. But he hooked them up with more wine, so I'm counting it. Most importantly, though, as he went around anoint people, Jesus went out of his eat to COMFORT AND REASSURE THE PEOPLE HE WAS FUCKING THERE TO HELP. Jesus Christ, how hard is it to show some compassion or even some goddamn interest in the people you're there to save.
Say what you want about Injustice. It had one perfect fucking scene.
>Supes saves a boy
>boy starts trying to thank him in (I think) Arabic
>"I'm sorry. I don't speak Arabic. I should learn."
Some desire to connect with people and try to communicate and comfort people even through language barriers. This superman just floats sons and broods. Louis and his mother are the only people he seems to actually give a damn about. Fuck. And here, because I know you're waiting for it, and I'm basically thinking it
>not muh Superman
>>82907494
I didn't mean to imply it was your complaint. I just think anyone who actually thinks that is dumb. Why wouldn't a fedorafag just rationalize it as a fictional work referencing another fictional work?
>>82905883
>>82905938
>>82905988
Yeah, ham-fisted handling is my problem. Plus, I'm sick of the comparison. Superman isn't Jesus. I think it's unoriginal and lazy. You don't need to associate the character with a popular religion to tell the audience they're the good guy.
>>82907100
Wait that doesn't make sense
>only Christians can use Christian symbolism
>if anyone else does it, it should be viewed as insincere and disingenuous.
>>82907550
>/co/ talking about subtle
/co/ wouldn't know what Subtle was if it bit them on the dick.
>>82905883
Because it's overdone and in your face. Plus super pretentious and try hard.
Superman Returns was just as bad with this, and so the originals 70's movies a bit.
Snyder is the Hideo Kojima of movies.
>>82907647
And neither would Snyder, but I'm not the one pretending people don't get what I say because I'm too deep.
>>82907597
Because militant atheists can be just as dumb as militant religious people.
And God knows they get triggered by fiction.
>>82905883
It's a few steps from just plain sticking a "HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE JESUS" text in the middle of the screen.
Alternatively, it's the movie equivalent to a guy nudging you in the ribs while saying "get it? GET IT?" in a theater.
>>82905883
Because it's shoved in our faces every 10 seconds.
>>82907586
>those typos
Fuck I need to calm down.
>>82905883
>so, Superman comes from like, really far away from, like, a really cool place, right?
>and so he comes to Earth which is like, super lame next to where he's from but he like, helps people here
That is as close as Superman gets to actually being a Jesus allegory, but Zack clearly thinks that is the most amazing discovery ever the way he bangs on about it.
>>82906351
> because god forbid they get confused or offended,
I'm getting real sick of how we, the fans of the original material that gets adapted, have to hold the hands and have things dumbed down for people don't care?
Aren't you? Fuck casuals. If they get confused it's their dumbass fault, don't make the rest of us, the people who made this market demand in the first place, suffer because of their stupidity.
>>82905883
>>82905938
It's just excessive. Snyder thinks it's super deep and cool, but it's an idea that's been around for ages, amd just cramming it down our throat is just too much. We get it, he's like Jesus, so fucking what? One Christ pose would be enough, but we get endless imagery, scenes replicating religious paintings, the movie releasing on Easter weekend with Superman dying and coming back to life just to really drive it home, people worshipping him, people in the movie straight up calling him a Christ figure, Lex giving a big speech about it, Batman litterally making a fucking spear to kill him with as opposed to bullets, batarangs, knives, or anything he's proficient in or that's relatively effective JUST so we can get another Christ reference in. Like for fuck sakes.
>Symbolism I understand
Ham fisted
>Symbolism I didn't understand
pretentious
It was a little less obvious in the 1978 movie, then again thats the best Cape film ever made so people aren't bound to nitpick every single thing in it.
>>82908503
>Symbolism that fails to be attached to a meaningful emotional moment in a character's story arc
poop
It's funny, OP asks a question that he probably never wanted a good answer to, people respond genuinely, and he just sticks his fingers in his ears when he hears something he doesn't like.
Eh. Welcome to /co/.
>>82907462
Except it isn't.
This thread is just bitching at what is only the first half of a statement being made. It's akin to watching The Matrix trilogy and complaining about the Christ parallels with Neo. /co/ leaves it at "these things exist and I don't like it".
Completely missing that those things exist in the films to make a larger point. Superman isn't Jesus. Superman hates being compared to Jesus. Superman is just a man trying to do good.
I still think it's odd that you compare Superman to Jesus and you still have him kill somebody...
>>82908741
Are you trying to imply God never killed anyone?
>>82908652
Good lord who let this nobody speak
>>82905883
I didn't mind it. It was hardly that big of a deal.
>>82908834
say that to my face fagit
>>82908843
That's cool, different strokes and whatever.
>>82905883
it's simple, like so simple. And despite it being so easy to do they managed to make it hamfisted as fuck in both MoS and BvS.
>HE'S JESUS LOOK LOOK HE'S FALING IN A CROSS POSE BECAUSE HE'S JESUS.
>>82905883
>snyder I think you're missing the point of a super hero movie
>MUH MODER MYTHOLOGY snyder yells while jacking off to high qaulity ann rand porn
Context >>>>>>>>>>>> Imagery
While the scenes may be obvious in what they are trying to convey, all of them put together across two movies make up maybe 20 seconds of screen time. Hardly anything to get mad about.
>>82909021
They all had context though. Did you mean to say content?
>>82909070
I meant to say context.
Peace on Earth works because yeah, it shows Superman next to Christ the Redeemer, but within the context of the story that imagery is used to contrast the fact that he can't actually save the world the way he wants to. Peace on Earth is all about how mankind needs to step its game up and not look for a savior.
Meanwhile people CLAIM the context in the Snyderverse is to show how troubled Clark is when people in universe revere him as a god, except he does nothing to stop it and the camera loves shoving the imagery at you even when no one is around to insist that meaning upon the character. He throws the imagery everywhere without any regards to its context or how it can be ill served to put it in certain points.
>>82908956
But that's not hamfisted. You're making it out to be but it ain't.
>>82908652
>Weople respond genuinely,
Where? "It's pretentious and ham fisted" is a pretty silly reason to shit on a movie when it's 20 seconds total out of 6 hours of movie
>>82905883
Because it's hamfisted and handled with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the forehead.
>>82909336
Well op asked and people answered, not to mention that many people have mentioned that the christ imagery is only one of many in their list f complaints
>>82909336
>"It's pretentious and ham fisted" is a pretty silly reason to shit on a movie
It's just as valid an opinion as yours.
>>82905938
just because its in the comics doesnt mean its good. or justifiable. please die
>>82909336
watch a Terrence Malick movie and reconsider your answer.
>>82909982
Malick is a good director, though.
>>82905883
Because it's so easy target to latch onto if you can't formulate better criticism.
>>82909336
> it's 20 seconds total out of 6 hours of movie
Closer to ten minutes, really. And the character age. And character actions. And motivations. And the release dates. And the marketing. But yes, other than all that, it's totally not noticeable.
Superman is as Jewish as it comes.
He was invented by a couple of jewish guys.
He's basically the story of Moses.
Shoving Jesus imagery and symbolism into Superman is ONLY a corporate decision to appeal to southern and midwestern smalltown folk who eat that shit up.
But, I don't give a shit - because Iron Man is by far a more interesting character.
>>82906448
Do you know what "ham-fisted" is?
>>82910530
do you?
>>82910365
>because Iron Man is by far a more interesting character.
light yourself on fire
>>82910321
>And character actions. And motivations.
His motivations in the movie are that he wants to do the right thing and his actions reflect that, it's core Superman.
>And the character age.And the release dates. And the marketing.
>Hating a movie because of it's release date
Snyder does it with the subtlelty of a ton of bricks.
The moment I laughed the most during the movie was when Superman died and you saw debris in the shape of crosses in the background
I still really like the movie, but Snyder is like Lucas, he needs someone to tell him "No, that's retarded."
>>82905883
Personally I like the Justice League = Gods which Snyder is going for.
The problem is that everyone only looks at Superman = Christ because they're too fucking stuck up their own asses so see the other characters (Bruce and Diana) going through a godlike but not Christlike apotheosis.
Like is Superman = Christ what does it say about Batman? Batman literally beats the fuck out of "God". Later once Bruce and Clark are buddies again they don't really know what the fuck Lex is up too, but they do know that Ma Kent is going to be killed. The more powerful of the two is the one sent to save people while the less powerful is sent to see what Lex is actually up too.
Plus Wonder Woman descends like an literal deus ex machina (in one of the shorts most people agree is actually good and probably one of the best Superhero reveals in film), but no one bitches about that.
Basically people don't like Superman = Christ because they're all a bunch of faggy protestants who don't like being reminding that their deity is just as ridiculous as the last son of Krypton.
>>82910604
I wasn't talking about Clark's smart guy.
I'm talking about Bruce's. Why does he make a lance rather than kryptonite bullets, or a knife, or any other weapon?
>>82905883
It doesn't trigger anyone.
It's just pretentious and stupid, an obvious attempt at being "deep" from a director and writer who has about as much depth as Michael Bay has subtlety.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory
>>82906767
this
I think people turn off their brain to the slightest thing they don't like in a movie.
>>82911479
>Why does he make a lance rather than kryptonite bullets, or a knife, or any other weapon?
Better ranged weapon due to Superman being able to fly, better accuracy than a bullet, Superman can outspeed bullets, a gun risks burning up Kryptonite bullets, Batman doesn't use guns
>>82911479
Because Batman (better than almost anyone in the DC universe) understands symbolism.
He had the Kryptonite gas to disable Superman. The lance was for show. If you're going to say "that's dumb, bullets are better" you totally miss the point of Batman.
>>82911697
Batman can never be too theatrical in my book.
>>82911696
>better accuracy than a bullet, Superman can outspeed bullets,
Bruce hits Clark with bullets.
If he weren't dicking around because of MUH SYMBOLISM he'd have achieved his goal in the opening salvo.
>>82911992
But Batman's whole point is literally "Muh Symbolism" you dolt. He dressed up like a Bat and gives everything bat-names.
>Batwing
>Batmobile
>Batcave
>Batarangs
>>82908709
People understand that, it's just poorly done. It was literally done a million times better in comic form in plenty of stories, best of those being PoE.
>>82907364
>Christian scientist
>>82905883
It's not subtle
>>82907100
>Snyder isn't a christian.
When did he give it up?
>>82910602
What makes Supes more interesting than IM?
>>82906767
>Most of /co/ missed that throughout the films he hates being associated with a God, every scene has him frowning anytime these connections are made, and it's not until he makes a very human action (sacrificing himself for Lois and not for the world) at the end that he actually becomes "Superman".
Nobody missed this. You're just crying because we get it and hate it anyway. Sure, Clark frowns about it. He frowns about EVERYTHING. He's got Anakin Skywalker levels of emotional range in this movie. And like I said, the symbolism persists even when there aren't people treating him like Jesus.
Seriously. If you want to go "Superman feels bad because people treat him like god" then I'm okay with that argument but WHO exactly is treating Superman like Jesus in >>82905883 when there's nobody around but him?
>The audience is!
No, dumbass. I don't *want* a Jesus Superman/ You can't force the audience to view the character that way and then say "Oh but the character doesn't like it!". Just don't show him in that way in the first place then!
And again, Clark doesn't hate it enough to open his goddamn mouth about it. Picture fucking related.
>>82912053
Yeah, and if it were JUST that it might be okay. But it's everything together. I don't think Snyder or his fags understand that moments and scenes are not meant to be viewed separately. You can't just go "This scene was great! that means the movie was awesome!" or "Batman was good! Movie Redeemed!"
It's the entire thing together. And when you put it all together, the symbolism is forced in such a way that everybody has to pontificate about the nature of divinity rather than having a twenty second conversation and resolving their conflicts like adults.
Seriously. Clark is 35, Bruce is 50+, Diana is what, 400+ years old, and all of them act like fucking teenagers in this movie.
>>82905883
Because Christ is the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
Or put more simply, the story of Christ is a story of sacrifice and resurrection into glory.
Superman is not God made Man, but Man made God. His role in the story is not to be sacrificed for the sins of and to rule over all men; but to be the defender and protector of his fellow men. He's almost literally the opposite of Christ.
If you were going to do it, actually do it.
Jesus had people skills. He hangs out with a dozen guys. He goes to parties and weddings. He visits people. He washes feet. HE ACTUALLY TALKS TO PEOPLE A LOT. Yeah, he performs miracles, but the miracles tend to be "Okay, I've given you guys lunch. Yeah, sure, feeding the 5000 was impressive, but listen, here;s what I have to say about the equity gap."
Snyder Clark doesn't do any of that shit. He's too anti-social to be a Jesus allegory, so it's all flash and no substance.
>>82911992
Bruce didn't have enough Kryptonite
>>82912070
Except they apparently don't when majority of criticisms about the parallels is just that it exist and there isn't any mention what so ever about it's purpose in the films.
Hell there are people in this thread also insisting that there is no context at all to its inclusion. There is no mention at all about its context except for a handful of post.
But please, continue on pretending that "everyone understood that" and believing this some how makes the message irrelevant.
>>82912501
Bullets are smaller than a spear (especially if you're just doing the tips), and can't be removed as easily.
>>82905938
>>82905988
Cant remember which comic it is, but ever read the one where some priest has cancer and supes starts visitng him
Super appears behind him while hes looking out at a lake or something.
Priest talks about how he half expected him to come walking up to him from the water
Supes says he would never play on his beliefs like that
Priest says even though he could do it
They both uncomfortable
I loved that little moment
>>82912504
When it only has context half the time it's perfectly fine to say that it lacks context the other half the time. Stop crying for ten seconds and actually read what people are saying.
Answer the question. Who, in universe, is treating Clark like Jesus in >>82905883
so as to fit your "Clark is sad people treat him like Jesus". What people? He's the only one in space.
>>82912273
I was responding to someone talking about how Batman should have turned the krytonite into bullets, and how that would be incredibly OOC for Batman.
But now that we're talking about the symbolism in the film in general I'll speak to that:
The point of the film is actually to pontificate on the nature of divinity and heroism. Throughout the film this is made really fucking clear. At the beginning and end of the film two different people prayer to "God", but God does not protect the man in the Wayne tower, just as God does not heed the President's prayer to smite Doomsday. Yet there are three Gods in the film: one reluctant (Supes); one self made (Batman); and one born to divinity (Diana is the literal daughter of Zeus after all).
It's asking the question of whether or not one actually wants Gods and what it means for their to be Gods. Now Batman v Superman isn't asking you to agree with its view on divinity and heroism, but it is asking you a question about those things.
But people just want click-bait and buzzfeed articles force feeding them witty one liners to say about everything these days. And Batman v Superman proves that people don't want anything to actually challenge them as proven by the most common line of criticism over Batman v Superman:
>Tell that to Zod's snapped neck
From a movie reviewer who thinks that Inglorious Basterds is Tarantino's best film. Yep, WWII fan fiction is better than both Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction. People take this hack's shit so seriously that's the most common thing they regurgitate when discussing Batman v Superman.
>>82912161
>Nobody missed this.
You say this yet the entire fucking thread is full of people who are not brining it up and only complaining about half the point of its inclusion.
There is no mention in this thread aside from my post pointing out that the Christ imagery is there to make a point about Clark breaking away from the Messiah motif. There is no complaint about this symbolic plot, what it did or didn't do, only the Christ imagery. No discussion about its inclusion, only complaining that it exist.
I'm sorry but fuck off with this "everyone got it" BS. No they fucking didn't. And not because it's too deep but because half the audience is content to just bitch about the most superficial garbage in this films rather than talk about shit that actually happens. /co/ would rather make up BS then actually talk about a film I'm starting to believe only 20% actually fucking saw the movie.
I've never said any of this was done well. It's not and I agree Snyder does a shit job at making this point. Just pointing out the purpose of it. You want this shit done right watch thematrix trilogy because that series just actually goes through a psychological attempt at showing a character reacting to news that their the new Jesus.
Where as Clark, as you pointed out, seems to just want to cry about that everyone thinks he's jesus.
>>82909336
First of all, there have been so many other complaints against the movies that it's not even funny anymore. Secondly, the OP was SPECIFICALLY about those '6 seconds', so I'm not sure why you're surprised that's what everyone is talking about in this thread.
>>82912504
>he's christ like
>the public want him to be christ like
>he doesn't like it
It's literally babies first symbolism. Some of the subtleties are nice like him being buried elsewhere and Martha's speech combined with his origin story and him taking a page from PoE's pages should be enough to make that connection. The religious paintings with him frowning is too over the top. Him finally accepting who he wants to be at the end of the movie when the curl is there and stuff like that, should be enough. It's a nice touch and tells the story, opposed to clubbing you over the head with a concept that people, especially comics readers, are overly familiar with and groan at seeing.
>>82907521
lol ok
>>82912572
The only instance where it lacks context is in OPs image. The church scene and death are both built around the idea of sacrifice. The montage in BvS is all about how the world views Superman. The space scene is the only point it is done without anything behind it.
>>82912740
>People take this hack's shit so seriously that's the most common thing they regurgitate when discussing Batman v Superman.
Well, I agree to this. Just not who the hack is.
Most geeks are atheists, so they bristle at Superman being compared to a lesser fictional deity.
>>82912752
>There is no mention in this thread aside from my post pointing out that the Christ imagery is there to make a point about Clark breaking away from the Messiah motif.
Then you're not reading because I personally brought up this argument and why it doesn't work at least twice.
And it's not so much that Clark just wants to cry about everyone thinking he's Jesus as it's...who gives a shit? Clark cries about EVERYTHING. He has the exact same look on his face walking into the senate as he does as it's burning around him. It'd be hilarious if not for how goddamn wooden and monochromatic it is.
>>82912825
It's also the first major one.
If you ignore the age thing which is actually kind of fucked up and yeah, means Clark spent over a decade dicking around for no good reason.
Honestly what's fucked about this franchise is that it's taking Clark 3 movies and his entire life to what? Go back to the person he was when he was 11 years old, pulling the bus out of the river. It's a classic shaggy dog story.
>>82912779
>Secondly, the OP was SPECIFICALLY about those '6 seconds', so I'm not sure why you're surprised that's what everyone is talking about in this thread.
No, no it wasn't
>>82912937
>Clark spent over a decade dicking around for no good reason.
He was saving people.
>>82912982
Yeah, so why all the angst? He was already doing it. Just do it. Have him get the cape and do it. Stop blue balling for 3 movies and have him do the thing and stop being a bitch about it.
>>82906411
>>82906484
literally bvs
>>82913042
Not literally.
Not even technically.
Not even metaphorically.
Because the underlying personalities and how they're enacted are far too different. Peace on Earth is a story about Clark trying to take the initiative. Snyder Clark is inherently reactive and NEVER takes the initiative.
>>82909336
>i want to hear you opinion why you didnt like BvS
>but you cant use these, these and these opinions.
EVERY GODDAMN BVS THREAD
IM TIRED OF THIS BULLSHIT
YOU EITHER ACCEPT CRITICISM OR YOU DON'T
YOU CAN'T CHOOSE WICH CRITICISM YOU ARE GONNA GET
>>82913036
He didn't have a problem with saving people, it was about going public. It didn't get easier once he put on the cape it only got harder.
>>82913042
This.
>>82912788
baby's first symbolism would be just copy and pasting the Hero's Journey. That's not what this is. Bringing up PoE is also missing the point. You're confusing Christ symbology with Divine symbology. Christ was never a figure that was intended to solve all problems and associating him as such is missing the point. He only offers salvation from sin, you're still going to suffer and most denominations state flat out you will suffer more because of your acceptance of Christ.
You're also missing the important moment of his final strike against Doomsday. Superman states flat out, he's only doing any of this for Lois. That's the break away. He's dower whenever people only associate him as a messiah, he becomes Superman when he finally admits to a human trait in not being altruistic but being entirely selfish in his action.
>>82913079
BvS is all about Clark trying to do good and being confounded by a murky morally gray world.
>>82913115
>You're confusing Christ symbology with Divine symbology.
Kind of easy to do when that's the only source Snyder draws from. Compare Clark to Zeus or Apollo or fucking Gilgamesh or something if you want it to be more about general divinity.
And, I know EXACTLY how you're going to respond to this but I'm gonna say it anyway. If you have to reframe Clark's acting as Superman as selfish, you've missed the entire point of the character.
>>82912897
>Then you're not reading because I personally brought up this argument and why it doesn't work at least twice.
Where? And if so you're the only one besides me in this thread. Props for not being clueless.
The Senate hearing is still a part of that Christ motif. Did you miss that the "pro-Superman" side is entirely made up of people thinking he's the next Christ? He's depressed because he's stuck between people hating him for doing the right thing, and people thinking he's Jesus for doing the right thing. He's about to stand in front of everyone and tell them "I'm just a guy, calm down with the worship"
>>82913136
And? He's still reactionary in his action.
Clark saves people in BvS, yes. He puts out fires and all that shit.
But Peace on Earth Clark was actively saying "I'm going to go out today and feed the hungry." He wasn't putting out a fire or reacting to save people from a flare up like MoS Clark was. That changes the narrative significantly. You may not realize this, but it does.
>>82913171
And despite knowing my response you've done fuck all to respond.
>If you have to reframe Clark's acting as Superman as selfish, you've missed the entire point of the character.
This isn't an argument, just a statement and one you provide no evidence for. Selfish is probably the wrong word, the point was that Snyder's Superman is Superman because of Lois and nothing else.
>>82913218
>You may not realize this, but it does
You may not realise this, but you're a douche.
>>82913136
seriously wonder if in part the movie is sort of says superman is too good for this world
the ultimate payoff of superman in the story so far is of humanity joining him in the sun
do you think the people of our own world could actually do that? the movie tells the viewer to look around himself to see superman's monument, and i take batman's monologue and the lex's painting as things that are messages for us just as much as for the people in the dceu
all the shit people here give superman kind of makes me feel even more for the guy we see in the movie, i can't imagine what it would be like to be in his boots
>>82913205
>He's about to stand in front of everyone and tell them "I'm just a guy, calm down with the worship"
And Snyder figuratevely slaps the mic out of his hands.
Which makes it hard to believe that this is solely an in universe prospect. Especially when combined with the less overt and metatextual ways the parallel is being forced.
It's REALLY hard to believe that it's just about people within the story forcing the imagery on Superman when not only does it happen when people aren't around, by the supposedly impartial camera, but also when the first movie in the franchise is direct marketed to Churches with a prepackaged sermon so that pastors can advertise for the movie titled “Jesus: The Original Superhero,”.
Put together all these things and for me? That's not "the characters in the universe view Clark as Jesus. Make your call whether this is right or not." That's "Hey Audience! View Clark as Jesus! Do it! Do it now!"
>>82910568
Yes
>>82913261
>the point was that Snyder's Superman is Superman because of Lois and nothing else.
Selfish was absolutely the right word. It still reflects a critical misunderstanding of the character and his humanistic core.
Not to mention it kind of muddles the whole "Bruce learns Clark isnt't a danger" because if he's only Superman because Lois is around, aren't we basically just counting the movies until he goes full Injustice?
>>82913270
Yeah Superman catches a lot of undeserved shit in this movie, but Snyder's Superman is also a man possessing the frailties of man. He's constantly butting against his limitations. In the end the movie seems to kind of agree with Lex more than Batman or Superman. Lex makes the point that Clark is compromised by his relationships with Martha and Lois, this renders him vulnerable to being used for evil ends. Batman is just as flawed in similar ways. Basically Snyder made a superhero movie sceptical of the whole idea of the superhero. Heard it said that what Unforgiven is to the western BvS is to the modern age of comic book movies.
>>82907233
doesn't matter since moses is a messianic character as well
moses delivered the jews and the future messiah is supposed to deliver them just the same
it's the core of idea of someone who comes from above to save us, someone who pins all our hopes that is addressed in the movie, ultimately saying that everyone must take on agency
>>82913265
I realize I'm a douche. That doesn't make me wrong.
>>82905883
A lot of it has already been said here
>Hamfisted
Is a big one
But in the case of these movies it seems really useless as well. The only point seems to be that Super Man is like Jesus and... that's about it.
It's mostly mindless, superhero action/dry, washed out drama and the Christ business doesn't seem to have much of an impact on ether of those things. It's totally superfluous symbolism. It's too obvious to be satisfying to find, it doesn't play into the motivations of other characters or inform us more about the world, it doesn't play into a conversation and it isn't even a remotely original take on the character.
At least in something like NGE the Christian imagery play into building an ominous atmosphere. It's used mostly to show the monsters and give them a kind of otherworldly authority and distant familiarity despite often being totally alien. You don't have to totally explain their motivations right away but based on their style you can tell they aren't just there for shits and giggles. Those space polygons are on a mission from GOD.
In Snyder's superman stuff Jesus just pops up where he can fit it and aesthetically the rest is just low-key, wanna-be Dark Night. The story itself is strong enough and clear enough that we don't need the help of cultural markers like Eva does. It doesn't need authority because superman should already have enough authority because he's fucking Superman.
But that's the real rub. I think the true problem with the Jesus comparison is that it shows the director's clear lack of faith in the material. SM isn't good enough on his own, he needs to be turned into a Christ for people to take him seriously.
Which is a little sad.
It's sad that Snyder and the prospective audience can't seem too love superhero for being a superhero.
>>82913387
Superman in BvS is no more selfish than Steve in CW, it's just that BvS knows it and CW doesn't.
>>82905883
Because it's so fucking heavy handed and blatant. When people argue that they never even saw any Jesus references I want to punch them.
Subtle allusions are brilliant, these were not.
>>82913103
Pendulum swings both ways buddy. I've been called a shiposter multiple times just for saying I liked BvS and we can't even have a discussion about the movie without people derailing threads to just call it shit.
>>82911332
>Like is Superman = Christ what does it say about Batman? Batman literally beats the fuck out of "God".
Batman represents humanity, he wants to crucify Superman only to be redeemed by him in the end.
>>82913103
Saying something is pretentious and hamfisted is not a criticism. What makes it pretentious? Why is that a bad thing? Fucking explain yourself retard, don't just use buzzwords, form a damn opinion.
>>82907586
>COMFORT AND REASSURE THE PEOPLE HE WAS FUCKING THERE TO HELP
yeah and guy had all the fucking answers to everything
clark doesn't have answers, that the point to the first half of MoS and of BvS
>>82906110
Yeah Peace on Earth tackled very directly the evils of humanity and managed to be more subtle with the Jesus allusion than MoS. Fucking Snyder is all I can say.
>>82905883
Pure Synder hack shit
Also, poorly executed and heavy handed
>>82913270
>all the shit people here give superman kind of makes me feel even more for the guy we see in the movie, i can't imagine what it would be like to be in his boots
There in lies the ultimate beauty of Batman v Superman.
In Man of Steel superman saves the world any what do people complain about:
>not muh Superman
>muh Superman would've fought Zod on the moon
>muh Superman would have thrown Zod back into the Phantom Zone
And then when Batman v Superman comes out people are complaining again. This time about heroes not seeing the shared humanity within one another:
>Martha! LOL So dumb!
Oftentimes it feels like I saw a different movie than everyone else. But maybe that's cause I want my Superheroes to be unironically epic which they are in Batman v Superman.
I guess instead a quipping Randian asshole is what people these days actually like. Also, I'm not shitting on Marvel here, I really like Captain America i & II, and I also enjoyed Guardians of the Galaxy and Antman.
>>82913337
Look I agree, the symbology is forced. The movie paints the image more than the world does even when its contextualized within the plot. But the point of it all is to break Superman away from being a Christ parallel.
Yes, the fact that the movie sets all this up just to break it down is a failure on the storytellers part. I'll agree with anyone saying that. But that doesn't mean screaming "ham fisted" is the correct response. Especially when its aimed at only half the point Snyder attempted to make.
>>82913387
You're still not explaining why.
>>82913491
>Batman represents humanity, he wants to crucify Superman only to be redeemed by him in the end.
Then what of Lex?
>>82905883
Raging edgy athiests and people who already don't the film nitpicking at more things to not like. Spider-Man 2 has Christ imagery and everybody ignores it because it's a good movie. Only when a movie is bad will people care about inane shit like that.
>>82909191
>is all about how mankind needs to step its game up and not look for a savior.
sounds like bvs
>>82913438
First, I have no idea why you're bringing that up.
Second, I haven't seen CW yet so I would have had to take your word for it, except that
Third, it seems like the movie does kind of know it, as we've had a LOT of threads on the board talking about how Tony is right and Cap is being a spoiled baby about it.
>>82913438
Irrelevant. Steve isn't a humanist. He's literally a different character with different motivations.
>>82913491
>Batman represents humanity
This should go without saying and is kind of the point of Batman as a character.
>he wants to crucify Superman only to be redeemed by him in the end.
His redemption is very different than humanities redemption via Christ though. Batman is actually redeemed before Christ's death. Batman's redemption is done by Batman not killing Superman and proving the "beautiful lie" to Batman: that Batman never needs to kill and never has needed to.
>>82912740
oh shit someone who actually read more than a few instances of a word in the book in question
>>82913626
People knowing it and the movie knowing it aren't the same thing. Cap is never even suggested to be wrong. My point of bringing it up is that so called cinematic heroes often behave in selfish ways, BvS is attempting to engage with the critique while most movies won't even acknowledge it.
>>82913654
>Steve isn't a humanist.
Well if you're saying he cares more about his own cobbled together moral code than human life, I agree.
>>82913554
>You're still not explaining why.
Okay, I know it's just going get a "NOT MUH SUPERMAN" but the fact is that yeah, part of the point of Superman is that he's not in it for just Lois, or just his mom, he's a social being that has traveled the world connecting to the WHOLE of humanity. He identifies as Human. Earth is his home.
The Snyder version throws all of that out the window for a detached reluctant god motif. And even that MIGHT have been okay, but they picked the most social demigod, the one that identifies as human and has friends and is social being, to compare him to. It's a goddamn mess.
>>82913569
Minus the subtlety and depth, sure.
Honestly if BvS is like anything, it's like JLA: The Nail. Which is a problem for reasons that should be obvious.
>>82913700
of course Steve is suggested to be wrong, he fucking leaves the shield because HE KNOWS HE IS WRONG
>>82913769
Jesus is God not a demigod. That's extremely disrespectful to many people's beliefs. I hope you don't make this mistake again in future. Peace be with you.
>>82913700
Except that BvS doesn't do that well either. The fact of the matter is that Bruce raises some excellent points that never actually get addressed, because Clark has a mom.
This same Clark, who is only Superman for the sake of ONE woman. We're supposed to think he's a great guy and can't be corrupted and he can be trusted with an insane amount of power.
Why? Because nothing bad will happen to Lois ever?
The classical answer is because Clark is dedicated to an ideal greater than any one person. But as you guys love pointing out, this isn't that Superman.
>>82913831
Yeah then he breaks all his mates out of prison. But sure he left his frisbee behind so it's cool.
>>82913910
sorry the not-even-slightly-subtle-but-somehow-still-more-subtle-than-MoS-and-BvS imagery flew over your head, Zack
>>82913903
So what? This is a revisionist Superman. If they called the movie "Revisionist Batman v Superman" would people stop moaning about them not living up to nerds' religious ideals of the characters?
>>82913769
Look "not muh Superman" is a response for everyone when they talk about Superman. No ones Superman fucking exist. There isn't a single consistent interpretation for the character, just a jumbled up mess of ideals that writers either discard or incorporate. People bring in their own interpretations of the character and make that their Superman.
Just as an example, everyone loves JLU's Superman right? You see him thrown around as a counter for Snyder's and the level of destruction his Superman brings. But everyone just glosses over that JLU Superman threw Captain Marvel into a fucking hospital that collapsed on him in the show.
But that's besides the point. I don't think an attachment to only Lois nullifies what you said. He views humanity through her. Saves humanity because of her, and keeps his humanity because of her. Snyder's version is just a condensed down version of yours. Instead of taking on the burden of caring for everyone he isolates his love for humans in Lois.
>>82913567
Lex is the Devil, duh.
>>82913890
please fuck off with your strict evangelized theological adherence bull shit.
No ones making theological statements here, they are talking about a popcorn movie.
>>82913978
So actually address the points Clark raises instead of trying to wrap up an ideological conflict in four words. Have some goddamn follow through.
>>82913826
>Minus the subtlety and depth
really? a story that has the same type of imagery as the movie, sometimes almost exactly the same is more subtle and has more 'depth'
i fucking swear /co/
>>82913940
What difference did leaving the shield make? He's still doing the same thing, he didn't turn himself in. It's just lip service.
You know I wouldnt have a problem with some of it if Superman would just ONCE say "Knock that shit off, Im not a god" and fly away. Like that burning building scene in mexico, instead of looking like a depressed asshole just smile and politely tell them to stop with the nonsense
>>82913981
except JLU Superman had 6 years of character development before that
>>82913665
The line
>I failed him in life, I won't fail him in death
along with not branding Luthor directly infers Superman's death is what inspires Batman to become a better person and put away his new, more brutal methods
>>82914054
And still threw a guy into a hospital.
Man of Murder amirite?
>>82913981
>You see him thrown around as a counter for Snyder's and the level of destruction his Superman brings. But everyone just glosses over that JLU Superman threw Captain Marvel into a fucking hospital that collapsed on him in the show.
Except
1. The hospital was literally empty and not open yet.
2 .Context. This was AFTER we got Superman classic. You don't start the story of a hero becoming disillusioned and jaded and out of touch on him being disillusioned and jaded and out of touch. You start it before that, and showcase the fall.
Snyder starts halfway through the arc without the set up to provide context.
>>82914030
it's the symbol, anon
you know, those things you and other Snyder defenders jerk off over
>>82914035
You really think the guy who wants to inspire people to do good is gonna crush their hopes by telling them he's not a god?
>>82914029
Yeah, you saw ONE panel. Oka. So Snyderverse gets to use it ONCE. It did in OP's picture. Now everything past that goes into "not subtle". That's how it works. You use an idea ONCE and it's okay. You harp on about it every other scene and it becomes obnoxious.
>>82914035
That would imply they want to encourage any maturity in their audience. BvS is just more shitty infantalizing american psyops.
>>82914089
Except it didn't symbolise anything. Because nothing happened.
>>82914086
the difference of course being JLU Superman was portrayed as 100% in the wrong
>>82914035
This a thousand times. I would be okay with the imagery and the attempt if Clark were an active participant in the story and speaking out against it. He NEVER gets allowed to. He's just so damn passive. He's a Christ-figure that never gets to speak, when that' 90% of what Christ does.
>>82914140
Nonsense. Superman is never wrong. Superman is always happy, sunshine, rainbows, and does good no matter what and no one dies, and he saves everyone, and his literally Jesus except he isn't, because he's literally a god except not, and cancer is cure because Superman is love!
>>82914110
Y-You know there are other ways of inspiring hope right?
>>82914120
wait, giving up the symbol of your country and your moniker along with it means nothing because he's still a hero despite being disillusioned with the system?
>>82914119
How is Superman saying "Knock it off" more mature? Also baffled how BvS is more infantilizing than say CW.
>>82914180
And he was doing them. But everyone got caught up on the "this dude can fly, holy shit must be Jesus" angle.
>>82914060
Yeah, but his decision to save Martha comes first. He achieves apotheosis through NOT killing Superman.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying it isn't the death of Superman which redeems Batman.
>>82914183
>giving up the symbol of your country and your moniker along with it
It implies the country is wrong not him, which was my point. You were trying to say that leaving the shield proves Cap knows he was wrong. Now you're saying it proves the opposite.
>>82913903
>The fact of the matter is that Bruce raises some excellent points that never actually get addressed, because Clark has a mom.
Look, it's healthy to have concerns over figures like Superman, but it's a matter of trust in the end, otherwise you could not function in life if you can only place trust in absolutes. You're suppose to build trust based on the person's actions and character, not on "well what if I kidnap your mother and blackmail you" what if scenarios where only sociopaths could under a lie detector say such a thing wouldn't ever affect their job performance. Superman throughout the movies shows in his actions that he can be trusted. He's fallible just like everyone else, but he never submits. Otherwise Batman should kill himself because he himself proves how easy it is to manipulate him to do bad shit.
Because the movie rfuses to engage with any of its own symbolism or themes. The entire third act pisses away every single concept Snyder brings up in the first two so Superman and Batman can have a big dumb wrestling fight, they can bond over mommy issues and have a half-hour fight scene with Shrek.
I'm amazed anyone can defend BvS with the third act it has. Even if you want to argue the first two acts are some sort of densely symbolic mood piece the plebes can't understand, the third act literally throws all of it away for the emptiest fight scene in a major blockbuster I've seen since Bayformers. Snyder refuses to engage with any of the ideas he sets up.
>>82914175
>Not speaking
Friggin this. This alone makes the capital hill scene so infuriating to me. Snyder creates a scenario where Superman FINALLY has a chance to speak to the world and bring up how he isnt above them, only for it to be derailed by the piss jar explosion. Thereby followed by more depressed Clark not bothering to look for survivors
>>82914207
he didn't do shit
he doesn't interact with anything more than a glum stare towards anyone who isn't Lex, Lois, Bruce, or a ghost
>>82914118
no, the rest of that book is not subtle at all, hell the vast majority of comics aren't subtle. it absolutely has never been a subtle medium
and you're just pulling rules out of your ass while still spreading misinfo about MoS, there is no 'harping'
>>82914180
Bullshit. It is necessary to believe in a iving god in order to understand hope. Also the only way to teach children about the sanctity of life is to bring in some kind of criminal and have them kill it as a class project. You can't respect a life until you've taken one yourself.
>>82905883
Because it's a load of preachy, pretentious bullshit forcibly shoved down our throats in a ham-fisted attempt to placate the lobotomized retard section of the audience who get to a hard-on every time they have thier stupid fucking opinions validated by the societal echo chamber.
Basically, it's a massive wank fest, and most of us don't enjoy getting jizzed on.
>>82906859
>they are on screen for a few seconds.
Supes slow motion dramatically spreads his arms as he descends, being told to go help humanity. I don't care if it was "fast", that's insulting to the audience and hackneyed as fuck.
>>82914374
weird, because the only people i see having a wank in an echo chamber are you guys
>>82914351
I think you went a bit far in some places anon
>>82914319
I don't think anyone was claiming The Nail was subtle
>>82914417
he's mocking what he thinks is the message of the movies
>>82905883
it is a rather old and frequently used story. only been ripped off a hundred million times by now.
also the actual christians would find it offensive I'm sure
>>82914414
having a wank in an echo chamber would mean they were ignoring the outside general opinion to jerk off their own interpretation that is unquestionably correct because they are just sooooooo much smarter than everyone else
>>82914417
Crush your enemies. See them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their Marthas.
>>82905883
Not muslim enough.
>>82912980
Okay, I worded that wrong. Apologies. What I'm saying is, the main question boiled down to 'why do people have a problem with the Christ imagery' to which the basic answer was 'it's not the imagery itself, but the execution'. And they're not even calling it a bad movie solely because of that. Please don't try to pretend that everyone is taking this scene and using it to justify their hate of an otherwise 10/10 movie. They have their complaints in general, and their specific complaints about these scenes which are relevant to the topic at hand. Genuine answers to a hopefully genuine OP.
>>82913522
It doesn't take all the answers to have a scene of him telling the people he's saving that it's going to be okay. Firemen are filled with doubt when they rush into a burning building. They don't know if they're going to be able to get that person out alive when they finally find them. But they try their best to try and reassure them anyways. Because comforting someone who's scared or worried doesn't take having all the answers. It just takes some empathy. Putting aside whatever problems you may be having for just a second to maybe make a huge change.
Look, I get that everyone's looking at Clark like a savior. And I get that that's not what he wants. That he's filled with doubts. But honestly? If probably rather just watch Megamind again. Metro Man even faked his own death in a more entertaining way.Yes, that was a joke. Though I do enjoy that movie.
>Snyder has informed WB that JL will be his last DC film within the DCEU regardless of critical reception and box office gross. The fan backlash and workload has really wore him down. It isn't fun for him anymore. He is all in on JL though. He wants to go out in style. Many around the studio and on set say they have never seen him work this hard. He is laser focused and working collaboratively with Affleck and the new DC Films heads. He wants to go out big. He wants to make something special.
WE DID IT, REDDIT
>>82914421
guy was claiming peace on earth is sublte, which it isn't, which inspired scenes in bvs but what the hell do i know
>>82914179
Great argument, dipshit.
>>82914448
Im well aware of that yes
>>82914532
FOR CROM!
>>82914608
Where's this from? Also that sucks. Now DC is just another house style borefest like Marvel.
>>82914608
Source?
>>82914618
Just repeating what I see here.
>>82913826
Bullshit. It did not go nearly as crazy town banana pants as The Nail. THAT,at least, would have been entertaining.
>>82914741
Agreed.
>>82914741
KEK. Honestly if true its kinda unfortunate. I believe that put under control Snyder can put out a good movie. His visual style is second to none and i would hate to see DC movies look all generic and shit.
>>82914614
alright then
let's examine why Peace on Earth works while BvS doesn't, despite covering relatively the same territory
Peace on Earth starts off with an established Superman, one who didn't crash onto the scene leveling buildings in a brawl. So there isn't a public distrust for Superman to overcome.
Additionally, BvS has a third party manipulating the poor public image of Superman, while in PoE his initiative fails, but not because of the actions of one man with a hateboner for him, just extant human politics. Also, this does not affect his public image.
PoE Superman is attempting to solve systemic issues that can't really be tackled by one man, while BvS is just saving people, like any firefighter or EMT might, and therein lies the vital difference between PoE's Christ imagery and MoS/BvS. Jesus Christ wasn't a rescue worker, he was trying to change society for the better. And, as Superman does at the end of PoE, he did it not by rescuing individuals or even attempting to feed all who were hungry, he did it by teaching.
>>82914766
>Bullshit. It did not go nearly as crazy town banana pants as The Nail.
Let's see.
JLA The Nail tells a story about more cynical universe. In this universe, there's a media campaign against metahumans. Part of this campaign to control metahumans involves a man in a wheelchair that was injured in a fight between two metahumans and thinks they need to be put in check as a result of the collateral damage they generate.
The government wants to weaponize superpowers, and does so in part by hiring Lex Luthor to research them. Lex, using an alien ship and the DNA they've recovered, clones himself a hybrid clone monster of half human DNA, half kryptonian DNA.
Meanwhile Batman has disgraced himself. After the Joker kills Robin, he becomes more violent and so his story is one of self redemption.
Nope. You're right. BvS is way more grounded than JLA: The Nail. I don't know what I was thinking comparing apples and oranges like that.
