Captain America, because you killed a dozen people while stopping the theft of a bioweapon that would have killed millions, we're very upset. Let me show a chart about how 73 people died during an alien invasion, which means slightly more than who die of smoking per hour and is something that you and superheroes are in no way responsible for. Here's another chart about Sokovia, where you saved billions and failed to save 260 or so. While Stark was responsible for this kind of, it was in his capacity as an inventor and not a superhero. This is greatly disappointing to us and indicates that the rules must change.
>>82826262
I'm sorry
>>82826262
The accords were stupid, and a poorly written plot device.
They should have found another reason to split the avengers into two sides. But, then they couldn't blow up the UN building and gotten Black Panther involved.
>>82826262
>Let me show a chart about how 73 people died during an alien invasion, which means slightly more than who die of smoking per hour and is something that you and superheroes are in no way responsible for.
I refuse to believe those numbers were anything nut deaths directly caused by the Avengers. Both because we're shown stuff like Hulk knocking debris onto people, and because it's absolutely impossible the total death count was that low.
>>82826262
>While Stark was responsible for this kind of
And Wanda and Bruce.
There's also South Africa, where Wanda intentionally sent Bruce to attack a city.
Plus setting the precedent of letting a private army trample over international law just because they "know better" is insane.
>>82826262
The worst part of that is that Tony fucking Stark decides that this is reasonable enough to be a 'middle ground' between the two. I don't care if he has PTSD, that doesn't mean that he would think this is somehow reasonable enough to agree to.
>>82826696
>>82826558
How is it not a reasonable middle ground? For YEARS people were saying that if this were what the SRA was, that it would be totally reasonable and that there'd be nothing to fight over.
>>82826607
Blame Disney for the low death count
>>82826607
It was probably deaths they themselves were responsible for rather than random chitrari fire or gravity and being in Sokovia.
Although the Hulk in South Africa thing was pretty far fetched, although it could be cited as Tony busting his ass trying to contain the Hulk which is more pro accords than not.
If they switched out New York with the battle in South Africa, they would've had a point. But in the end it was simply a bad plot device really.
>>82826262
Did it fly over your head that people who forced the accords have agendas?
>>82826988
Reason for Cap not signing in the movie. Its not a bad plot device. This would most likely happen in any case.
You could fix this shit if it was explicitly a bullshit power grab.
>>82826262
The death tolls were so absurdly low.
Ross and the other pencil pushers cared more about using the avengers as assets than collateral damage
>>82826988
No, but it would have been nice if someone who was anti-accords at least pointed out that holding the avengers responsible for the people they've failed to save is ridiculous.
>>82826262
> saved billions and failed to save 260 or so
The biggest flaw of CW is that no one ever brings it up.
>>82827596
I hope someone shouts this at Zemo at some point in between punching him in the face
>>82826262
The bit I was shaking my head at most was the clip of the chitaori, literally no one in that room had anything to do with the beginning of the invasion, yea the avengers brought loki in and they were pitched against each other, but if they didnt he would have just started the invasion anyway, its kind of hilarious that the general just brushes off the fact that the officials opted to nuke the city and that somehow its the avengers who were fucking shit up
>>82828035
>"YOU'RE NOT JUST A STINKING HYPOCRITE"
>punch
>"WHO PUT EVEN MORE PEOPLE"
>punch
>"THROUGH THE SAME PAIN"
>punch
>"YOU SUFFERED"
>punch
>"BUT YOU'RE JUST BITTER"
>punch
>"THAT OUT OF THE LITERAL *BILLIONS* THEY'VE SAVED
>punch
>"YOUR FAMILY"
>punch
>"WHO ARE ROLLING IN THEIR GRAVES BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU DID IN THEIR MEMORY"
>Zemo starts to cry
>"WEREN'T AMONGST THEM."
>>82828070
>the officials opted to nuke the city and that somehow its the avengers who were fucking shit up
fucking thank you! The people who would have been a part of that stupid oversight and were already a part of an established group meant for such oversight were absolutely willing to sacrifice WAY more people and the Avengers prevented that!
>>82828035
If the fact that Stark created Ultron is public knowledge, then I think Zemo was fully justified in being pissed about what happened to his family. But I don't remember enough about AoU to remember if that ever got out, and I'm under the distinct impression it didn't.
This is honestly a complaint I have for just about everything Marvel makers - its citizens are judgmental assholes and shitty human beings. From the protesters turning on Ms. Marvel at the end of the gentrification story line, to all of the racism allegories for the X-Men that make NO SENSE in a universe with other superheroes, it feels like every story is trying to get across the same message of how the heroes are morally upstanding for protecting a world that hates and fears them, and I have yet to see a writer pull it off in a convincing way.
>>82828158
>Zemo looks them in the eyes
>"If you heroes didn't exist there wouldn't have been an alien invasion, there wouldn't have been machine man that rob me of my family."
>"If the world had none of you, would be super "heroes", I would have lived in peace with my family, the world would have kept turning and we wouldn't be huddling in fear of the next major catastrophe your existence will bring to the world."
>"What I did in their memory was open your eyes to the monsters you are to the world."
>"This world would have been a better place if you never existed"
The accords are unreasonable in this aspect on purpose, and it's hardly unrealistic. The world at large, especially the politicians and the elite who run things, are illogical and often hysterical. Any number above 0 civilians killed by the good guys means those good guys are bad.
Tony knew it was bullshit, but wanted to get ahead of it before it got worse and worse (as it did throughout the movie). Not that I'm taking his side, but, it makes his perspective a little more sensible.
It's not so simple as "fuck off, we're superheroes its not our fault". I mean, ideally it is, but the world isn't going to accept that, ie Zemo, and there's tons of people like Zemo out there that blame the Avengers. Reminder that Marvel citizens are ungrateful fuckheads.
I mean, look at when shit like this happens in real life, some random hospital in the middle of Who-gives-a-fuck-istan gets annihilated while some drone is aiming at a terrorist. The approval rating for people responsible for these kinds of things couldn't be much lower, and the reputation of the US in the global community is shit because of things like that.
Go ahead and slap some stars and red white and blue on the guy responsible for killing a bunch of kids in a hospital, it doesn't matter if it's on accident, every millenial in every college is going to call for his arrest if not his outright execution.
Dear Secretary of State Thaddeus Ross;
In your decades long hunt for the Hulk you wasted billions of tax dollars, thousands of soldiers' lives and probably caused tens of thousands of civilan casualties.
So, please, shut the fuck up!
BTW: It takes a redhead in black spandex to tame the Hulk, just sayin'.
>>82826742
When superheroes are the cause of more good things than bad then it's stupid.
Only Avengers who fucked up big time are Tony and Wanda but Wanda is lucky the Hulk didn’t do any major damage or killed anyone, Tony has blood on his hand, was gonna drop Sokovia full of people if Cap didn’t tell him it was a shit idea, and is now making the law with the accords and is in the top with Ross who is another man with blood on his hands and incompetent.
Yeah the accords are stupid in hindsight
>>82826262
>>82827804
>>82828158
Am I the only one that thinks it's weird that everyone thought Ultron's plan would wipe out that many people? I mean, the people on the chunk of land would be fucked obviously, and it might cause some damage to the surrounding countries, but come on - the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs was 6 miles across, going 70,000 mph, and probably made up of stone and iron. That chunk of land was maybe half that size, much less dense, and going nowhere NEAR that fast.
>>82828362
>- its citizens are judgmental assholes and shitty human beings.
sounds like real life
>>82828641
It had a generator payload with it and his plan was to fire it back at 100,000 mph once it reach ideal height.
Just curious, but when the Avengers bust up a Hydra base with a basement full of alien technology research do they just not tell anybody about it and leave it open to the public?
If they gave us a better idea of whats in the Accords besides just "Paperwork" and "Red Tape"
Then perhaps a better argument could be made in their favor
Civil war is just not the same without the Mutant Registration Act, is it /co/?
>>82828790
A real fair setting of that would have been very boring with no fighting. Realistically they would have all just signed it and moved on. Cap was willing to work with Shield when they were doing bad shit with that mindset of "better to have one hand on the wheel"
Honestly things escalated because of Bucky, remove that plot point and it wouldn't been anything big.
Without Zemo's plot Cap would have likely warm up and signed the accords and Avengers would go on missions until the government(s) did do something stupid and just fight back then.
Honestly if you really think about it, most if not all of the Avengers are shitty people and its not hard to see why people dislike them in their universe
>Tony started a whole new arms race and created a killer AI
>Steve helped a "former" terrorist/assassin
>Wanda aided a genocidal AI and caused the Hulk to chimp out in Africa
>Widow was a former assassin, and a whistleblower that shut down an entire government agency
>Banner beside the whole Hulk thing also helped create a killer AI
>>82828777
The generator payload would need to be thousands of times bigger than a modern nuke, and there is no fucking way they could accelerate that much mass up to 100,000 mph before it hit the ground (and any attempt to TRY would cause a huge amount of it to burn up/fall off before impact).
I still call bullshit.
>>82828952
Thor?
>>82828457
>"There wouldn't have been an alien invasion? Where did you do your research on the invasion, a conspiracy site? They came for a weapon that arrived on our world long before you were born. They were lead by a madman who only wanted a throne, and saw a people without the means to defend themselves, ripe for the conquering."
>"The man who's life you tried to ruin was fully willing to sacrifice himself to destroy the weapon that was the catalyst for that madman's choosing of earth before he even knew of its presence here. Would you have achieved anything near what he did? You would have been shot by one of HYDRA's men before even reaching the cube."
>"You said you lived in peace with your family, but a military base belonging to a terrorist organization existed not even 100 miles from your home. They had weapons more dangerous than any you've ever picked up, and if you think the Avengers had never gotten rid of them then they would have been content to mind their own business, to never harm your family in their experiments, you're an even bigger fool than I thought possible."
>"What you did in their memory wasn't to open the world's eyes, it was for satisfaction. You weren't the one to kill the one that killed your family. You were in mourning and you saw them being hailed as heroes. You thought, 'How dare they enjoy happiness when I've lost everything? If I should suffer, so should they!' You were no different than a playground bully, angry at seeing the child across from you do better than you at the same tasks, who responds by tormenting them and saying that it's their fault for bragging."
>"Only, you're worse. You used the memories of your loved ones to forget the hypocricy of your actions. You did something that in life they never would have approved of. They're looking down upon you now, ashamed."
>"They never would have lived to see the fighting in the city if the heroes you reviled had never existed."
>"This world would have ended long before then."
>>82828952
If you really think about it and don't care about context, all people are shitty people.
>>82828884
It didn't bother me much. It was a more contained versuon of the comic which I thought worked quitr well. AoS has potential to work that angle of the accords better than the movies. Maybe in season 4
Ross was literally guilt tripping them. He was pressuring them to sign the accords, which was made to shut up countries complaining about US-based super heroes, so he can control the Avengers.
tldr: Accords made to shut up non-US countries; Ross/some other people want to control the Avengers through guilt-tripping
>>82828457
>"If you heroes didn't exist there wouldn't have been an alien invasion
"There absolutely would have, you stupid Sokovian bastard. It happened because two aliens made a deal: one wanted to get something left on Earth by another alien, and the other wanted to fuck up the planet because his big brother beat his ass. Ultron's on us, I'll admit that, but if we didn't exist your family would've died years sooner or lived as Loki's slaves!"
PUNCH!
>>82828958
Never said Joss was a good writer
Just sharing the crazy of it.
>>82829012
To split hairs the tessarac was discovered by ghost Loki and that was after getting kick out of the house. So if Thor was kick off to the Ice Planet or wasn't a spoiled brat that would have lead to a world where Thanos would not have been made aware of the Cube at least so soon anyway.
Also we will never know what would have happen to Hydra and their shadow takeover if Cap either didn't exist or lived out his lifetime rather than get iced
>>82826262
So maybe you aren't from the US, or maybe just don't have a good understanding of politics. That's fine, children watch these movies too.
A system does not have to be broken for politicians to try and fix it. There are countless examples of bureaucratic interference, lobbying efforts, and many other kinds of governmebtal inefficiency creating unnecessary or shortsighted issues for systems that already work fine, or for problems that don't exist. Right now the United States is caught up in one of the dumbest political fights ever, about transgendered bathroom usage, something no one cared about three months ago, but is now turning into a large scale states v. Feds legal battle. That kind of bullshit can become a legislative sideshow, so superheros saving people absolutely would as well.
It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to be scary enough that a couple career politicians make it their issue for a few months and suddenly relatively minor collateral damage becomes a fuge fucking problem.
>>82829194
Thor was what made them know where the cube was in the first place. If Loki didn't fall through the portal there wouldn't have been an avengers film.
>>82829012
>>82829194
Stop, smackdowns this hard are illegal!
>>82828884
Not having the 50 State Initiative cuts out a ton of the content too. The movie basically turns a world changing event into a 12-person kerfuffle.
Why don't the Avengers just go on strike and wait until the world begs for them back?
That is literally the best way to solve these shitty underappreciation problems. Either they really need you and will grovel to get you back on your terms, or you truly are expendable and its time to retire pleasantly.
>>82828362
Well for the racism in X-men, everyone else in the marvel universe with powers are isolated incidents were only one person is getting powers this way. With the mutants its an entire population that's growing and not all of them use their powers for good.
So why didn't Steve sign the accord and just refuse to do something they tell him to do if he doesn't want it? If the gubmen started doing something they didn't like, they could just fly off and forget about the whole legislation.
>>82828958
>Ultron isn't stopped by the Avengers, but sees that his plan killed far fewer than intended
"Welp, time to build a whole lot more of these, since normal humans can do precisely jack shit to me."
>>82829012
>You did something that in life they never would have approved of.
Zemo's wife married a guerrilla black ops killer.
For all we know she would have wanted exactly what he did. Hell some kids would want dad to avenge them.
You anons are retarded to think they are pure in all this
>>82829200
>and their shadow takeover
Their shadow takeover involved using gunships to wipe out around 1/7 of the world's population. Even if Zemo's family was spared, who's to say they would survive the ensuing mass global panic? The fact that they lived so close to a HYDRA base means that they would have been on the front lines of the ensuing chaos
>>82829290
>>82829303
both of you are clearly not underage
I'm sorry but these films are not made for people that like to think.
>>82827804
Well, when you consider that even one death on the part of the US military in wartime is made into a tragedy, subsequently prompting a decrease in public support for the war, the saved:casualty ratio does have better perspective
We're so squeamish towards loss of life in hostile areas that it doesn't matter how many you saved. If even one dies, was it really worth it? See also the media accounting of the Black Hawk Down incident.
>>82829290
Cap would never sit around like that just because people were being mean to them.
>>82829327
Captain America was stated as the major reason Hydra went the shadow ops way, that got beat to hard during the Red Skulls reign.
Also reread my post if Cap didn't get iced and just lived the internal takeover might not have happen.
>>82829303
Probably a matter of principle
>>82829200
>and that was after getting kick out of the house
And that was also after Thor tried to defend his own life and also bring Loki in alive. Because Asgardians had been to earth before (hence why the Norse people worshipped them and Asgardians call our world Midgard) they've known about us for literal ages, and thus Loki still would have known about an easy-to-conquer planet he could access. Besides, we don't know that he went straight to earth after jumping away from Thor. It's entirely possible that Thanos shared some leads on the Infinity Stones' potential locations with him and sent him on his way, offering him an army in exchange for an Infinity Stone and transport to the place he wanted to take over.
>>82828958
>there is no fucking way they could accelerate that much mass up to 100,000 mph before it hit the ground
>>82829387
That was what he was going to do thought until Bucky UN thing happen.
>>82829414
And if they hadn't gotten taken down during the Red Skull's reign, they would have taken over anyway and since they were allied with the Nazis, I'm pretty sure that is not a good thing.
The world would be a post-apocalyptic shitshow if it weren't for the existence of the Avengers. Zemo's actions had no moral ground.
>>82826696
>I don't care if he has PTSD, that doesn't mean that he would think this is somehow reasonable enough to agree to.
Tony is not a stable person. He seesaws between heroics motivated by guilt and a sense of obligation, and being an egotistical prick when he gets a swelled head from all the superheroing. We saw over the course of the movie a Stark who honestly thought he could live with following someone else's orders because he felt low transition to a Stark who is subtly contradicting the authority channels and mouthing off to them.
>>82829433
I feel like you are just doing metal gymnastics to avoid an awkward truth.
In avengers it's started Thanos found and saved Loki. If Loki never fell through the portal and was just jailed or even simpler Thor was never a brat we may have never seen the events unfold where the cube would be discovered by alien forces.
>>82829321
>Zemo's wife married a guerrilla black ops killer.
And you know that she knew this how?
Why is the idea that a loving family wouldn't be too keen on more good people being murdered in their name so hard for you to comprehend?
>>82829291
not him, but I understand that.
But How would someone really be able to tell that you're a mutant right off the bat if you don't say so.
You could easily lie and say that you gained your powers some other way
>>82829231
It's unfair to count Thor among the Avengers in this context because his whole story takes place regardless of anything humans do. He's just Super Alien God Hobo.
Plus he wasn't even in this dimension when Zemo's plan went off, and the plan was aimed at fucking with a bunch of humans whose only involvement in New York was saving it.
>>82829532
You have to do mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that causing even more death and destruction and also demolishing the world's best chance at fending off a future alien attack is at all justified. I'm not the one trying to defend the actions of a terrorist who went out of his way to intentionally endanger and kill people.
>>82829494
>they would have taken over anyway and since they were allied with the Nazis
In First Avenger Red Skull kills two of Hitlers men and rebels against the third reich before Cap even exists.
WW 2 happen as usual the Hydra and the Captain America part of First Avenger happen after WW 2.
>>82829422
That's such a fucking cop out
>hey Cap, this plan could potentially help tons of people and make The Avengers less feared but you could literally leave at any time and have the same consequences as you would if you had never signed in the first place
>nope nope Peggy said to stand up for what you believe in
>>82826652
It blows my mind people don't get this. They're a private military force and cap wanted no accountability. And people honestly think that in universe they should totally let him. Laws? Who cares...I like this guy.
>>82829627
That doesn't change the fact that they were an ends justifies the means group, and the ends for them was totalitarian control.
>>82826652
It could be argued that Wandas intent was that Hulk would cause a problem around the Quinjet and not the city
Of course that's a very bloody tenuous argument, but it's there
>>82829537
Why are you assuming they are a family like that?
There are neo Nazis, KKK, hate mongers and the like that live among us happy and positive loving to each other but would with passion enjoy seeing other people suffer and die.
We are given no narrative that would show Zemo's wife and child would be against his actions. You take that stance because it's needed to hurt Zemo's actions, to argue the ones that loved him didn't support it when for all we know they wish Zemo did more to make them suffer.
>>82827804
Doesn't stop /co/ from bitching about MoS
>>82828362
>citizens are judemental assholes
So marvel captured how people would react in real life. Sounds like they did their job.
>>82829651
It's because they're looking at it from the viewer's angle, where we know for a fact that the Avengers are good people with good intentions (even if they fuck up HARD sometimes).
From the angle of
>holy shit two dudes have wearable flying tanks and there's a supersoldier from World War II and spies and a god and a big green rage-monster running around AND THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL LIKE
the accords sound a lot more reasonable.
>>82826262
Isn't his whole line of thinking something like:
>if these heroes were regulated better and with even more resources than they have now we could save the world with much fewer casualties
>>82828884
>Not using the inhuman one
>>82826262
Ross wants to control Steve in a Tom of Finland fashion. Cap can't be doin wit dat, so here we are
>>82829569
My point was more that if Thor never came to earth events of the first Avenger film wouldn't happen.
And Zemo's plan was more aimed at the Birth of Ulrton that was a mix of mostly Tony's fault but with Thor's brothers actions as well.
>>82829599
Im not defending him at all, Im showing that if you pluck all the heroes stories like they never happen the escalation and super human arms race as it were would have never happen.
Im not even the anon that started the Zemo green text bit. It's just a good point, remove the heroes and none of the story events escalate as we see.
>>82829673
My point is they might have been beat before they took the clock and dagger approach. Hell Zola's fate was due to them losing Cap to the iceberg.
>>82829731
>There are neo Nazis, KKK, hate mongers and the like that live among us happy and positive loving to each other but would with passion enjoy seeing other people suffer and die.
You're seriously assuming that a kid would be amongst this group? A kid who was a fan of Iron-Man?
The Accords was a plot by Ross to put the Avengers under his command. While all the blame goes to the utterly unaccountable UN.
>>82826262
I'd call for regulation too if you let out a giant green killing machine run around with no real way of putting it down. If The Avengers chose so, they could do tons of damage to the world.
>>82829291
I can understand why the idea of a whole group of people getting random powers could be upsetting, but kind of like what >>82829552 said, the distinction between mutant and non-mutant superhero seems waaaaaay too arbitrary for it to make sense. Unless mutants significantly outnumbered and/or outgunned all of the other supers and therefore represented a serious shift in the status quo, then it just feels like the writers are trying too hard to make them sympathetic.
>>82829915
>if you pluck all the heroes stories like they never happen the escalation and super human arms race as it were would have never happen.
That's only if you also remove the actions of the villains they were fighting, the goals of all of whom involved the deaths of a lot of innocent people
>My point is they might have been beat before they took the clock and dagger approach.
No, they weren't, otherwise there would have been no first Captain America movie. Even if the organization would have collapsed and failed without Cap's intervention, way more people would have died and then their weapons would have made their way into the black market, and caused all sorts of mayhem including a potential arms race.
This is why the whole, "The world would be better without the heroes who cause so much destruction trying to save it" argument never works. If they hadn't intervened, the city/neighborhood/country/world they were trying to protect would either be devastated or just destroyed.
Watchmen did it better desu.
>>82829919
I had a neighbor that didn't hate Blacks till she was raped by one, she now looks at them all as monsters because of one solitary instance. She is broken and now thinks that because of that rape and how that community of blacks responded to her that they are all worthless and has no pity when they suffer.
Let's say the kid lived and saw mom and dad get killed thanks to Iron Mans actions (or inaction)
You're seriously assuming that a kid would keep defending him after losing all he loved from (his view) Iron man and the Avengers?
>>82829002
whisked his brother away who was responsible for a world- better yet American homeland invasion, presumably to avoid consequences
>>82826262
I'm not sure if people are getting the point or missing it.
I'm going to assume the prior, but just in case yes the entire point is governments, armies and politicians in general are about skewing perspective to gain control. They don't care about fair or facts or any of those things, they care about putting the pressure on using law, numbers, authority and so on.
Cap's Avengers are all literally imprisoned in a super max facility for simply fighting back even though no one was really hurtexcept for Rhodey but that doesn't count since Vision was the one who paralyzed him to get technical. This sort of thing happens all the time, I'm surprised people here are surprised. A few years ago a discussion about SOPA was streamed and we all saw how power was thrown around LIVE.
It's not directly addressed but if you think about how Cap's actions dismantled SHIELD and HYDRA who have power and security well above most organizations this wasn't about Justice, this was about getting Cap, Widow, Thor and Hulk on a leash so they can point their efforts to people they don't like and away from things they don't want anyone knowing about. Just because these people aren't HYDRA doesn't mean they're clean.
>>82826262
>says the guy who created the fucking Hulk and who turns himself into an even worse Hulk who also bursts into atomic flames and spreads radiation around
What's the civilian/military death toll from the Hulk films?
>>82830049
>That's only if you also remove the actions of the villains they were fighting, the goals of all of whom involved the deaths of a lot of innocent people
Only one that has any good weight to that is Red Skull/Hydra
The rest? Not so much
>If they hadn't intervened, the city/neighborhood/country/world they were trying to protect would either be devastated or just destroyed.
the flaw is we can't prove that it any major reasoning. Either direction. The only evidence we have is things like Iron Monger, Whiplash, Killigan, Ultron can't exist without Iron man. Winter Solider and Zola's imprisonment wouldn't have happen without Captain America
Loki being exiled and finding the cube wouldn't have happen happen without Thor's banishment
Abomination wouldn't have happen without Hulk.
Hell without a successful Super Solider Serum, Abomination, Winter Solider, Tony's Parents getting killed maybe the Hulk would have never happen.
You can argue things could have turn out worse but there is nothing in the Narratives to show that clearly or even to a leave to have concern.
>>82826262
why were the death tolls so low? it makes it feel so unbelievable
>>82830293
Either Disney doesn't want to scare away soccer moms, or Ross is only talking about people directly killed by an Avenger's actions.
>>82830255
Ross isn't the Red Hulk nor help create Hulk in the MCU.
>>82828035
Zemo knew what he was and had done, he told T'Challa as much. He did what he did anyway because he wanted the Avengers to pay at any cost. It was that simple.
In his mind if he didn't do it then while he wouldn't be a hypocrite they would not properly know what they're paying for.
In fact exactly as people are envisioning now is how it would most likely go. They'd see the footage, they'd say they're not to blame for that, stick together and carry on their ways. Why would Zemo possibly want that when that sort of thinking and power is what caused his loss?
>>82826262
Is Ross played by the same guy in the first movie?
>>82829738
Because Superman didn't even try.
>>82830284
>Only one that has any good weight to that is Red Skull/Hydra
A pseudo-Nazi cult taking over the world with reverse-eningeered Asgardian tech is some pretty fuckin' hefty weight.
>Loki being exiled and finding the cube wouldn't have happen happen without Thor's banishment
Thor was banished because Loki manipulated him into disobeying Odin.
Loki did that because Odin "adopted" him; otherwise he would've been Frost Giant #314,848,679.
So really everything ever is Odin's fault.
>>82826262
Are we sure that 73 number wasn't associated with the explosion at the start of the movie? Because 73 people dying from that explosion makes waaaaaay more sense than the Battle of New York.
I feel like this might be a meme that was born of incomplete information weeks before the movie aired, and now is just hanging around on inertia.
>>82829552
>But How would someone really be able to tell that you're a mutant right off the bat if you don't say so.
As Morrison run showed, there are more Beaks then there are Jean Grays
>>82830419
Yes.
>>82830293
>>82830331
I suspect it's just to illustrate how prepared and effective the MCU world is. Their healthcare, security and the like should be much more advanced compared to ours since the years of the Super Soldier program.
It's one of the reasons I don't get why people complain about no one dying in the movies, with the fucking shit we've seen Stark using to operate on himself and keep himself alive I can't see why any injury outside beheading would be absolutely fatal.
>>82830293
According to the brothers those numbers are by action they can confirm were directly effected by Avengers actions.
It's also because they wanted to avoid big number counts because
1. that almost never happens in the real world. it's usually high solider kill rates in battles or numbers built over a long period of time (example, lumping the deaths in the films it's about 250+ dead in as many years)
2. they didn't want to jump the numbers to high when Infinity War happens. They don't want what happen in 90s comics where near extinction events have to happen every other month because they have no other way to raise the stakes.
>>82830453
>So really everything ever is Odin's fault.
Ill get behind that.
>>82830479
>Their healthcare, security and the like should be much more advanced compared to ours since the years of the Super Soldier program.
It realy should be, but in the comics at least the "heroes" keep 99.9% of the life-changing super-tech to themselves.
If we explicitly see differently in the films, I'll roll with your theory.
>>82829651
Making laws for superheroes to follow makes sense, but the Accords as they were weren't just for accountability, it was handing over complete control to the UN. It would be like forcing EMTs to wait for the Mayor's office to give them permission before they were allowed to go rescue someone.
>>82830733
If the EMTs had so much as the power to resurrect the dead you can bet your ass they'd suddenly be given limits where they can go and who they should revive.
>>82830841
My point wasn't that there shouldn't be limits on powerful people. It was that putting bureaucracy in the way of people trying to save lives is only going to guarantee that they won't be as good at saving lives. How would New York, Sokovia, and DC ended up if they had to wait a couple hours for confirmation before they were allowed to go in? Especially New York, where the government wanted to nuke the city, and DC, where the people who needed to be stopped WERE the government.
>>82827596
It's because they're guilty. Wanda knows she saved more people by containing the blast but ideally, she would've not blown up the building and killed those others. As heroes, they always WANT to do better
I'm sorry captain, but the only way to right this wrong is for me to rape you
Pretty disturbing that everyone's completely okay with the Avengers being able to do whatever they want.
You know, if Wakandans would quit having their diplomatic visits in vulnerable locations next to huge and vulnerable windows they might stop dying from street bombs.
>>82832185
Also, it'd be hilarious if the mid-credits scene in Wakanda had the camera pan from Black Panther staring out the window to just a white unmarked van sitting outside.
>>82832028
No, it's just the logic that the Accords were using. Obviously I think most people here could agree that some lax kind of regulation would be okay. But as everyone has already pointed out, the Accords were stupid.
>>82826262
Cap was right.
Signing the Accords was just shifting the blame, which is why Tony "My Fault" Stark was immediately all-in.
Just look at the officially sanctioned, General Ross approved, mission to apprehend Cap at the airport. Before even giving Cap a chance to surrender, the very first thing Iron Man does is destroy somebody else's helicopter (which could not possibly have outrun him anyway). Actually, if you think about that for a second, since Sam is the only person on Team Cap who can fly it would have been a lot easier to follow them and capture them all *in* the helicopter after they'd flown away from a population center.
-Sam comes out
-Sam gets triple-teamed by Iron Man, War Machine, and Vision
-helicopter engine is disabled
-Rhodey carries the chopper right to General Ross's house, drops it on the front lawn, and says "BAM! You looking for this?"
Nah, let's just destroy their civilian escape vehicle and pick a fight surrounded by a few multi-million dollar commercial aircraft.
And then, when they go after Tony's quinjet that Tony payed for himself, they destroy an air traffic control tower owned by the German government just to block the path to the quinjet instead of just disabling their own private property.
Tony had no more concern for the consequences of his actions after the Accords than he did before, he just wanted to be able to say that his actions were authorized by someone else.
>>82832877
Actually Ross only approved them 36 hours to find them and bring them in before he did.
Making that situation worse because Tony could have called Ross and got the power of an army to surround that airport.
Tony deep down was just angry that Steve(in his eyes) was willing to go as far as destroy the unity of the team for Bucky's sake.
>>82833265
Exactly.
Tony still did whatever he wanted, without involving Ross, the UN, the Highest Anti-Terrorism Effort, or anyone else. It was still "we go in by ourselves and if they don't do what we say then we KICK ASS" just like always.
>>82833510
>Highest Anti-Terrorism Effort
I love acronyms.
>>82826262
Both in New York and Sokovia they have a police force evacuate the city. While in Civil War there were going to just let the police force get attacked.
>>82829552
Hell, I'm pretty sure that happened. I remember seeing a mutie trying to convince a racist he was bitten by a radioactive elephant or something.
>>82826262
>save billions of people
>HOLY SHIT SEVERAL DOZEN PEOPLE DIED HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY DO SUCH A HORRIBLE THING
>>82829002
Proves that the norse Gods exist and all other religions are wrong
>>82833699
>>82833984
You know they aren't God right? They are an advance alien race.
>>82834107
Tell that to the vatican
>>82831115
That's the trade-off for preventing shit like Sokovia.
>>82833934
Yes, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
>>82834107
What's the difference?
>>82829290
It requires a callous cruelty that most of them simply lack.
>>82829290
Because Up to this point all the world problems have been their fault.
tony did nothing wrong
>>82829443
That was what he was ordered to do by Ross if he didn't agree, he never agreed to that either. He literally left the meeting without his answer.
Steve isn't the sort to just sit down in defiance, even when he was originally forced to act as a PR clown he took off to save people, and Bucky obviously, instead of waiting until he was begged to do so to make a point of have his ego stroked. He quite frankly doesn't give a damn what authorities of the public think of him so long as he knows he's trying to do the right thing.
>>82835982
What he believes is right. Might not be what is right. At the beginning of the movie. They thought this police station was going to get attacked, but they didn't alert the police station about it.
>>82829073
Too bad your shitty show isn't canon
>military charging other people for the collateral killing of civilians
>>82835873
Nah, only Ultron.
The Chitauri invasion was S.H.I.E.L.D's fault, specifically Howard Stark, Nick Fury, and Erik Selvig.
The Dark Elves were Jane Foster's fault.
And it's also pretty heavily implied that Ultron existed in the Mind Gem before Tony ever started tinkering with it, so even that is questionable as to whether it's the team's fault or not. And on top of that, Tony was feeling extra desperate at the time because of Wanda fucking with his head.
>>82836081
And according to Sam, they didn't have to worry about Rumlow getting away because if he saw them he'd attack them. So they could have just made themselves obvious and drawn his attention away from his initial objective.
>>82835724
The needs of the billions outweighs the needs of the hundreds, yes.
>>82836081
>but they didn't alert the police station about it.
Consequences of superhero equivalent of Black Ops, risk the chance of tipping off the target to your presence and awareness or catch them with their pants down?
Plus the incident is not necessarily the fault of Cap not informing the police of an unconfirmed suspicion, something only verified last minute anyway, it's more Cap failing to keep his focus in the mission. That fault I'll give, but his sudden Bucky PTSD was really just a plot device. It setups the reason for his obsession to protect him later, but why he would decide to listen to Crossbones ramble on the spot instead of during interrogation while secured is odd.
General Ross:
"Do you have ANY idea where Banner and Thor are, right now? If I lost a couple of thirty megaton warheads, you can bet your ass there'd be consequences."
Tony Stark:
"Uh, excuse me...didn't YOU lose Banner first? Like before we ever met him or you? Before the Avengers even happened?"
>>82826262
>Let me show a chart about how 73 people died during an alien invasion, which means slightly more than who die of smoking per hour
not that I disagree with you in general, but this is an exceedingly stupid argument to make. This would be like saying 'yeah I killed a dude but you know thousands more die of starvation every day so I shouldn't get in trouble for it'. The existence of bad things happening elsewhere in the world in no way exonerates a person or group from the negative consequences of their own actions.
Again I'm not saying you're wrong in your conclusion, just that this particular argument is a really shitty one to make to try and prove it.
>>82828958
>there is no fucking way they could accelerate that much mass up to 100,000 mph
Because Marvel films are known for being grounded in reality regarding the laws of physics.
>>82836454
He was probably at that bar because of the consequences, and Betty hating him, so he probably said that line out of feelings of unfairness.
That and generally being a snide asshole.
There was an episode of old PPG like this
>>82836472
One man, even a murderer, is less of a threat to the whole than mass starvation is. The Avengers are far less dangerous to the general public than cigarettes or ham. And it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the people who died during New York and Sokovia would have died anyway if the Avengers hadn't been there, the difference being that millions *more* in New York would have died, and all seven billion of us would have died from Ultron casting METEO.
>>82826262
The alien invasion and Ultron wouldn't have happened in the first place if it weren't for the Avengers. That's the point. Vision even explicitly spells it out when they're all talking about it.
>>82836553
That's actually a really good point. Huh.
>>82829641
>standing on principle is a cop out
>Captain America
Yeah, Steve has never been one to stand on principle. It's just plain out of character for him. Marvel should stop now before they ruin his character even more.
>Hi tony my name is General Ross. I am personally responsible for the creation of Abomination. I am here to tell you that you and your team are out of line
>>82836565
The Citysville one?
That whole episode was a parody of how cartoonish the series' premise is when put in a realistic scenario, wasn't it?
>>82827804
Yea. When Ross said "People are scared" The answer is they damn well should be, aliens could come flying out of the fucking sky at any minute.
>>82836665
Ultron, yes -- that would have been replaced with a horde of Hydra robots. The Alien Invasion? No. That was always the plan for Loki.
>>82836665
I forgot correlation always equals causation
>>82836810
>I am personally responsible for the creation of Abomination.
Stop parroting this nonsense. That happened when Blonsky went Rogue and and asked Sterns to Hulk him out. Ross just gave him Cap-tier strength/speed/regeneration.
>>82836862
It's exactly the same logic that places the blame of Ultron on Tony
>>82836852
His point was that people were afraid of the Avengers. It's like the Cadmus arc in JLU.
>>82836856
>>82836853
If you want to get technical, Loki's entire motivation was revenge against Thor.
>>82836514
They're known to at least pretend. If something doesn't work the way it should in real life, it's explicitly stated that there's a reason for it - vibranium, arc reactor, infinity gem, etc. In this case, it feels like the writer was just too lazy to look up basic laws of physics to figure out how much force you'd actually need to destroy the world.
p=mv, people. Not hard to remember from high school.
>>82826262
>Captain America, because you killed a dozen people while stopping the theft of a bioweapon that would have killed millions, we're very upset
Cap's team came within inches of releasing that very same biological weapon inside a heavily populated city during their fist fight. The problem with the Avengers is they're very "punch now, think later" guys. When the bad guys have an unknown, but undoubtedly very dangerous biological weapon in their hand, you don't punch them without some kind of backup plan.
Yeah, the Avengers killed dozens trying to secure that weapon, but they almost killed everyone in that town because the only plan they ever have is "go right now", followed by "fight right here", followed by "hope to god that one of you superpowered fucks save the day when one of us other fucks almost kills everyone." They desperately need someone to plan for them, tell them their plans are fucking retarded, and basically stop them from getting quite as many people dead every time they go out for dinner.
>>82836974
>Yeah, the Avengers killed dozens trying to secure that weapon, but they almost killed everyone in that town
As opposed to the battle of new york. Where the military was quite happy nuking Manhattan.
I'm sure their oversight will be just great
>>82836969
But the gizmo that levitated Sokovia was made from Vibranium.
And Vibranium "does not obey the laws of physics AT ALL" as Spidey so aptly pointed out. Not to mention all the other physics defying things we saw Cap do with his shield in previous films.
So unless you have a degree in Imaginary Physics from the University Of Wakanda, you can just fuck right off.
>>82834024
Imagine Terry Crews giving this speech in a Marvel movie production.
>>82836969
p = mv clearly does not apply in Marvel movies. If it did, there would be no science fiction element in the films at all.
You need to learn to accept that science *fiction* is an aspect of these films.
>>82837213
The entire CITY wasn't made of vibranium. It still needs to be at a certain mass and velocity to inflict that much damage. And even if the magical vibranium levitator managed to accelerate up to the required speed in time, that much stress and friction would make the city fall apart long before it hit the ground.
>>82837378
you need to learn the difference between science and SCIENCE!
>>82836974
>only plan they ever have is "go right now", followed by "fight right here"
Alternative was let the attackers mow down everyone in the building. Plus they noted before the fight happened that they weren't concerned with being seen and were likely to flee the wrong way down a crowded one-way street.
>>82826262
>>82826607
>>82826788
>>82826931
>>82827500
I haven't seen the movie.
Please tell me you're fucking with me and that the death counts aren't as low as was seen in the trailer.
Please tell me that more than 74 people died in the Battle of New York.
>>82826262
future red hulk ?
>>82837604
>were likely to flee
"If he sees us coming I don't think that'll be a problem. He kinda hates us." -Falcon
>>82837378
I'm 90% it was specifically mentioned that there was a force field to hold the city together specifically so it would do the most damage.
>>82837671
The numbers are still laughably low, BUT the footage shown is stuff like:
>Hulk smashes through a building
>Debris falls onto onlookers
So it's POSSIBLE it was just counting deaths directly caused by the Avengers.
>>82837701
They also mentioned escape routes and said the most likely one was down a one way street.
>>82837702
It was a magnetic field but yeah. Friday mentions the rock would fall apart without it.
>>82837751
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrVegVI0Us
Is the footage in the movie the same as in the trailer (0:20 - 0:25)? That footage seems to be Chitauri attacking people, and not specifically the Avengers.
I feel like it would have been more easily explained if they had two death counts: "Total Casualties" and "Casualties (Avengers)" or something.
>>82837751
>So it's POSSIBLE it was just counting deaths directly caused by the Avengers.
How could they know? I mean in specific instances where a guy happens to be filming as the Hulk knocks debris into him, sure. But if no one was filming, how do you tell which debris was knocked loose by the Avengers?
>>82837937
In the movie, the footage they show from New York is the Hulk crashing into a building, and a piece of debris from the building flying straight toward the camera.
>>82837702
>>82837886
A magnetic field... holding together rock?
Fuck it, I don't even care anymore.
>>82837937
It's different.
New York has the Hulk scene mentioned by >>82837751
Washington DC has one of the helicarriers falling onto people.
Sokovia shows the city being lifted up and some building falling over.
>>82838024
Hmm. That's a much better implication of the source of casualties.
But I'll still call bullshit on the actual number.
>>82837671
They never actually say.
The news report about the UN bombing says something like 70 injured and 13 dead. They screw-up in Lagos kills eleven Wakandans but they don't say how many other people died nor how many were injured.
Sokovia pretty obviously would have had a lot of casualties, but they only actually show people being rescued, not people dying.
And New York was supposed to have been extremely light on casualties and the entire battle was limited to something like a seven block radius which was evacuated impossibly quickly.
>>82837751
You're referring to the Hulk/Veronica fight in AoU, right? Johannesburg wasn't even mentioned in Civil War.
>>82838133
>And New York was supposed to have been extremely light on casualties and the entire battle was limited to something like a seven block radius which was evacuated impossibly quickly.And everybody gave BvS shit for going out of its way to bring big fights to unpopulated/abandoned areas.
>>82838038
Do you know how much Iron is in Sokovian soik?
Why weren't you here complaining 8 years ago when a paper-thin gold titanium alloy coukd stop a tank shell? Or when a man in a metal suit could survive falling from great heights when realistically, his body would be turned to slush even if the suit survives unscathed? Or the Hulk (and Captain America for that matter) violating conservation of mass? Or the fact that none of earth's air was escaping through the portal into deep space?
>>82838070
>Washington DC has one of the helicarriers falling onto people.
i'm sorry, but how the fuck is that caps fault? cap was asleep for 99% of the time that that plan was coming to fruition. unlike say, general ross, who probably got fucking hydra funding for his super soldier projects
>>82838181
>>82838133
New York was never evacuated, dunno what he's talking about. They show Cap interacting with cops on the ground and rescuing people.
>>82838236
Not to mention the fact that Pierce's plan was to use those helicarriers to murder twenty million people in one day.
>>82837751
iirc isn't there something in the comics about the Hulk never actually killing anyone. I've never read any Hulk so
>>82838283
Do you not remember what Cap told the cops?
He was pointing out buildings that still had people in them and telling the cops to get those people down and out. And the cop immediately relayed Cap's instructions to the other cops to evacuate the people out of the buildings.
>>82838354
Yeah, Amadeus Cho said some ridiculous shit about Banner's super-calculating mind making sure that no one ever died from anything he did while he was Hulk.
But if you've read old Hulk stories that's pretty much impossible to believe.
>>82838133
>They screw-up in Lagos kills eleven Wakandans but they don't say how many other people died nor how many were injured.
The little thingy in the corner of the screen says "Casualities: 26" when Lagos was on screen.
>>82838422
Now that I think about it I remember an old Daredevil story with Hulk and I'm pretty sure he killed a couple people there
>>82838133
>You're referring to the Hulk/Veronica fight in AoU, right?
No, Battle of NY.
Though it's weird they never mentioned Johannesburg, because it's probably the most damning incident to pin on them (since it was intentionally caused by a current Avenger).
>>82838422
>Do you not remember what Cap told the cops?
He was pointing out buildings that still had people in them and telling the cops to get those people down and out. And the cop immediately relayed Cap's instructions to the other cops to evacuate the people out of the buildings.
Yeah but there's nothing indicating the evacuation was finished in a ridiculously quick manner. at the end when Iron Man is carrying the nuke there are still tons of cars going across the bridge.
>>82838208
I don't know why, man. Some things just bug me more. Maybe it's because when something is supposed to be a threat then I want it to actually make sense for me to consider it threatening.
>>82838622
You're going to HATE the Infinity Gauntlet, then.
>>82838074
Especially on the Washington ones.
If Cap hadn't stopped them it might as well have been Ross' ass getting shot to shit.
>>82838558
>The little thingy in the corner of the screen says "Casualities: 26" when Lagos was on screen.
>less than the terrorist attack on Paris
Seriously?
That shit would've been on TV for 2 weeks tops and every other country would have forgotten about it then.
>>82839030
It would be if it didn't kill Wakandans.
It's like the difference between a bombing in the middle east that kills hundreds and a single murdered white woman in the US.
>>82830079
But that's the point, the kid never went through that traumatic event, and we can only assume that in the afterlife he'd have an omnicient perspective on things like we do, and thus sympathize with Zemo's loss but not condone his actions
>>82839085
True, it's Nigeria so the following week there was probably another attack where twice as many died.
>>82839030
>That shit would've been on TV for 2 weeks tops
it's fucking africa. without the avengers, this wouldn't even be the nights lead story in the US
>>82839085
>It would be if it didn't kill Wakandans.
>killed 11 people from the African version of North Korea in terms of isolation
>>82839030
It's also the superhero factor.
That the world is reacting so severely to them is kind of a point that the Vision makes.
It's not the deaths in and of themselves that get people pissy. It's the perception that the supers are somehow responsible for it in the first place or at least not doing enough to contain and stop it.
>>82839230
That's a big deal.
>>82826262
With the increasing amounts of stories where heroes have been sued into oblivion I've started to think there should be laws in place for this kind of thing.
If a guy with super strength gets into a fight with another super because said super was robbing a bank, and they decide to be a sore loser and throws a car into a school, it's not that guy's fault.
The villain was going to hurt someone anyways, they're fucking evil.
>>82826262
The worst part about this all is that he was the head of an operation that loosed a monster and killed people.
>>82838892
In his defense the Infinity Gauntlet immediately dispenses with needing sense since it's flat out defying it.
>>82839267
We have strict rules for cops. It's insane to think we shouldn't for crimefighters with vastly more destructive power.
>>82835667
>The return of Nazis to power or Nuclear decimation of a city more progressive than some European shitheap is considered a good trade-off
kek
>>82837671
The "battle" was like 15 minutes bro, and at no point did we see the Shitauri chariots actually hit anything they aimed at. Aside from some cars and, near the end, the Hulk.
>>82830391
>because he wanted the Avengers to pay at any cost
My entire point is that his reasoning is fucking stupid. Even if he knew that Tony was responsible for creating Ultron, there's still the fact that Tony was simply experimenting on a very useful alien power source to help the world and then what was essentially a sentient computer virus came out of said power source and started wreaking havoc. It's like blaming Einstein for the people lost in Hiroshima. He needs someone to lash out at so he feels like he's avenged his family.
Now, under the more likely assumption that he didn't know Tony was responsible for creating Ultron, his reasoning is all the more stupid. "You saved the entirety of my country, maybe even the world, but since my family weren't amongst the countless saved I'm going to blame you and kill even more people while also dissolving the planet's best chance at dealing with a similar threat so I can feel like I've avenged their deaths."
He's not just a hypocrite, he's a fucking idiot.
>>82839030
Lagos is in Nigeria. Two weeks ago in that country, on May 1, Boko Haram attacked an Alau village and massacred well over 30 people. Did you even know that happened before I just told you?
>>82839321
If a police officer is arresting a criminal and said criminal pulls out a gun and murders an innocent bystander the police officer isn't at fault.
At least, not legally speaking.
>>82828362
Uh, we know the governments pushed the accords but I'm pretty sure there are a lot of civilians who love the Avengers. If they aren't a majority then I would imagine the world is at least heavily divided on the issue.
>Captain America has his own museum exhibit celebrating him as a hero
>Tony Stark is invited to make speeches at MIT (for comparison try to imagine a real life college giving a venue to a public speaker they disliked on ideological grounds)
>thay guy in Iron Man 3 with Tony's face tattooed on him
>all the Avengers-themed graffiti at the end of the Avengers
>Spider-Man and Ant-Man being Avengers fans
>"Captain America saved my life he's the greatest" girl from the Avengers
>even Zemo's son was excited to see Iron Man in his recounting of the day they died
>people cheering for Iron Man at tge Stark Expo
>thar kid who wanted Iron Man to sign his drawing in Iron Man 3
>>82839441
>Tony was simply experimenting on a very useful alien power source to help the world
The same thing he yelled at Shield about in the first avengers.
>>82838892
Pretty much this >>82839318. It's easier for me to ignore it if it isn't even trying in the first place.
If you say "This is a magic hammer, that only the worthy may wield" that's fine. If you say "Dropping this city on the planet will cause the next major extinction event" I call bullshit, because it's obviously TRYING to follow the laws of physics, it's just doing it blatantly wrong.
>>82839085
There have been many terrorist attacks that have killed people from prominent countries this year. Like the Istanbul bombing in January that killed 10 Germans. No one cared much about those either past the first few days at most, even though Turkey and Germany are by all indications much more important influential nations than Nigeria and Wakanda.
11 foreigners dying in a battle in a country that's already in the middle of a bloody civil war isn't news. Now maybe the fact that some mercs were stealing a bioweapon would, but in that case, PRAISE THE AVENGERS FOR STOPPING THEM!
>>82839441
That's why he's the villain
>>82838208
>Why weren't you here complaining 8 years ago when a paper-thin gold titanium alloy coukd stop a tank shell? Or when a man in a metal suit could survive falling from great heights when realistically, his body would be turned to slush even if the suit survives unscathed?
That alloy never survived a tank shell. If you look closely you'll see that Stark actually got hit by an anti-aircraft gun on the side of the tank. Later he freaks the hell out when a jet fires 20mm HE at him and considers it potentially life-threatening. Later still, a7.62x51mm Minigun puts 3-4mm pits in his chest armor. Later still, a Stinger missile is also considered life-threatening. So it's actually a decently realistic portrayal of titanium armor, considering it varies in thickness from 1 to 4 cm throughout the armor.
The fall was just pure luck, like the time a flight attendant survived a 30,000 foot fall WITHOUT power armor. We see when Rhodey takes a much less violent fall what it looks like without such luck. He very nearly dies and is paralyzed for life.
>>82839267
That's what pissed me off about the Civil War comic. Everybody went after the reality tv superheroes and everyone else who's responsibility wasn't to babysit every other caped volunteer.
Not one person, including the bitch who's kid was lost amongst several hundred others, went after the bad guy who nuked everything.
Unless of course there was some spin-off thing where Nitro was captured and tried, I only read the main comic up to where Captian America did the stupid and just gave in because majority vote, which was what he was opposing in the first place.
>>82839471
Yeah, but if the police officer tries to dispose of a bomb and ends up blowing people up, they'd definitely be under investigation.
>>82839509
Shield was trying to make weapons
Ironically, Tony was trying to create a shield
>>82828641
>that many people? I mean, the people on the chunk of land would be fucked obviously, and it might cause some damage to the surrounding countries, but come on - the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs was 6 miles across, going 70,000 mph, and probably made up of stone and iron. That chunk of land was maybe half that size
He was probably going to make it a bigger island accelerated at a faster speed (SW's vision has him dropping it nearly from space) until the Avengers busted in and forced him to hurry.
>>82839616
And yet there are still people trying to explain how sympathetic his actions are.
>>82839757
Because he was right. Until he went into revenge mode at the end.
>>82839714
Nigga are you hearing what I'm saying?
That's not the same scenario.
If a police officer tries to dispose of a bomb and they succeed, but the bomber laughs and pulls out a detonator at the last second he wouldn't be held accountable.
Again, legally speaking.
Seriously pay attention.
>>82839714
Depends on what you mean specifically. If a bomb was found somewhere and an untrained officer tried to disarm it before EOD got there, yeah.
If someone threw a grenade at a cop and he made a split-second decision to throw it away from himself though?
>>82839441
It's kind of like blaming the firefighters and volunteers on 9/11 for everyone who died in the world trade center.
>>82839484
I don't doubt that there are people that like the heroes in the Marvel universes. It just feels like the writers tend to write way too many stories about how judged and persecuted the heroes are. It's like the first day at a writing job for marvel you have to do an essay on Tall Poppy Syndrome.
>>82839781
Motherfucker I just nearly hit the max post length to explain why he was wrong in every possible way. Let me make things as simple as possible: You don't fucking dismantle the Coast Guard because they didn't manage to save everyone on a sinking ship.
>>82839719
What do you think that shield would be made out of? Justin Hammer is right. Tony carries around a sword and calls it a Shield.
>>82828615
>Tony has blood on his hand
No, Ultron has blood on his hands. Tony fucked up, but even the cause of that can be traced back to someone else fucking with him (Wanda.)
>>82826262
>73 people died during an alien invasion
They attacked Midtown Manhattan, not freaking Fargo, ND.
Hundreds if not Thousands of people died in Avengers 1.
Still not the Avengers fault though.
>>82839831
The difference is that the Avengers didn't just fail to save people. They literally caused deaths.
Also, unlike the Avengers, the coast guard already operates under government oversight. The Avengers are a private army who answer to no one. And they weren't being dismantled - They were just now going to be treated like actual law enforcement officials instead of vigilantes.
>>82832877
In fact, Tony specifically went out of his way to cause property damage by destroying a shit ton of planes.
>>82839949
>They literally caused deaths.
You need to pay more attention to the events of AoU! Tony only created Ultron because of the vision Wanda made him experience, but then it turned out that the visions were so specific because of the influence of the Infinity Stone! You want to blame someone, blame Loki and Thanos!
And if the Coast Guard analogy doesn't work, how about this? You don't blame someone who tackles a crazy gunman despite having no obligation to do so for the people who still died at the gunman's hands
>>82840080
>but then it turned out that the visions were so specific because of the influence of the Infinity Stone
What?
This is stated absolutely nowhere.
>>82839949
> They were just now going to be treated like actual law enforcement officials
How so? You mean by being ordered to carry out summary executions like the law enforcement we see on screen? Or by being ordered to ignore evidence that doesn't fit the preferred narrative, like Ross does to Stark?
>>82840080
>You don't blame someone who tackles a crazy gunman despite having no obligation to do so for the people who still died at the gunman's hands
It's more like it a cop shot at a bunch of criminals who were attacking people but a stray bullet hit a civilian. The cop would absolutely come under scrutiny.
>>82840097
It was stated when Thor crashed into Bruce and Tony's attempt to make another sentient robot, and the result was Vision
>How so? You mean by being ordered to carry out summary executions like the law enforcement we see on screen?
Are people still salty that the mass murdering terrorist who was just thought to have bombed the United Nations headquarters, was carrying grenades, can benchpress a car, can kill a man with a single light blow, and would have killed four law enforcement officers if CA hadn't stopped him was ordered to be shot on sight?
>>82840106
>How so?
By actually answering to public officials and not just doing whatever you think right right, illegal or not.
>You mean by being ordered to carry out summary executions like the law enforcement we see on screen?
The German police were 100% in their rights to use lethal force in this context.
>Or by being ordered to ignore evidence that doesn't fit the preferred narrative, like Ross does to Stark?
Ross not believing what Tony says is wrong in this case, but also understandable and legal.
>>82840134
Not if it came down to firing like that or letting even more people die for sure
>>82840187
No he didn't, he said his visions were ABOUT the Infinity stones and how they were going to fuck shit up at some point.
>>82840216
He still absolutely would be. They would likely ultimately find him innocent, but there would undoubtedly be an investigation into whether the cop acted irresponsibly.
>>82838558
A casualty is not a fatality.
>>82839831
>You don't fucking dismantle the Coast Guard because they didn't manage to save everyone on a sinking ship.
This is kind of a bad example because the Coast guard already works for the government and acts on their behalf.
The issue with the Accords wasn't the fuck ups, it was the fact that the Avengers were fucking up in countries that had absolutely no say in whether or not their actions there were lawful in the first place, and being a small group of people, had no reason to assume they were there for entirely benevolent reasons.
Ultron is just an example, but the Avengers are not entirely safe from internal fuck ups that result in massive destruction, or even dubiously aligned people like Wanda or Vision that seriously may very well decide one day that a more Darwinian approach to society might be more suitable (obviously the viewer knows this won't happen, but the world fucking doesn't.)
People are both grateful of the Avengers and scared shitless of them. They are a group of superhumans that answer to no one, and the last thing any country wants to see is a Avengers showing up in their land because they just KNOW that means shit's about to hit the fan and that their people will get caught in the crossfire. Just look at the intro to AoU; if the Avengers hadn't attacked Von Strucker's base, there would have been no stray shots pecking the city. If the Avengers hadn't showed up at the airport to blow off steam at each other in lieu of a compromise, there wouldn't be a wrecked airport.
Just because the Avengers saved the world doesn't mean the world wants them fighting wherever they want based on their own internal judgement with no consequences for the damage caused by their arrival and the actions taken to fight terrorism/HYDRA/whatever, especially if it wasn't an immediate threat to the people.
Also, y'know...Hulk.
>>82839868
It's all Wanda's fault.
Probably because I was raised by a Lawyer, i just can't help but think about how the insurance BS behind all this shit.
I mean, would they chalk it up to "Act of God" to avoid paying up? If Thor was involved, that'd certainly be an option.
>>82839870
Typhoon Roke the very one that made media buzz for wreaking Japan's mainland and taking the nation by surprise causing 120 million in damages killed only 13 people
You seriously underestimate how sturdy humans are.
>>82840215
>shoot-on-sight order
>100% right
>ignoring evidence because you don't want to hear it
>understandable and legal
OH
And another thing.
Let's talk about this from a real life perspective, if a bunch of mutants or aliens invaded a city in real life and like, 20 or 30 guys got their guns and fought them off but the aliens started firebombing the city, would this militia end up getting sued?
Hell no, they weren't the only ones there and they aren't the fucking military. It's not their fault they didn't defend the WHOLE city. It's especially not their fault if they actually STOPPED the destruction and pushed them back where they came from.
>>82840294
What I never understood was Wanda was all shaken up about that explosion and killed when just a movie before that she willingly set a rampaging Hulk through the same city by messing with his mind.
Where was her guilt for that?
>>82840391
>shoot-on-sight order
>100% right
In Bucky's case? Abso-fucking-lutely. It was EXTREMELY likely that attempting to arrest him would be a death sentence. And the police don't like to throw their officers lives away.
>ignoring evidence because you don't want to hear it
>understandable and legal
He ignored the evidence because he didn't believe Tony.
>>82839441
Zemo himself emphasized when he was speaking about the incident to Cap that no one really gave a shit about Sokovia since it was already lost.
He was even letting his son watch "The Iron Man" from a distance because despite the chaos it was entertaining from a safe distance, so he was clearly neutral toward the Avengers before unlike Wanda and Pietro.
But it was because after all this they got to go home to safety with smiles on their faces while his home was buried under debris, and the Avengers apparently did not even stay behind to help dig through for possible survivors, that brewed his hate.
Now again, if he didn't do sabotage them what would he have for it? They'd carry on and his family would still be dead.
This wasn't revenge however, it was a lesson of humility. He did not care whether or not it was due, it's the very fact they did not want it that was the reason it was on the curriculum.
>>82840448
now then, this doesn't have the whole, "Bad analogy, government oversight!" argument
>>82840448
Again, the problem isn't failing to save people - It's actually causing other deaths in the process.
>>82840291
This is the strongest point in the thread and the major note to look at when people started caring, a lot of meta human destruction was done in the states but no one objected. It wasn't till these US based heroes were destroying foreign cites and lives that the world to action.
>>82840291
>if the Avengers hadn't attacked Von Strucker's base,
They didn't though; the perimeter guard panicked
> there would have been no stray shots pecking the city
They weren't stray shots; Strucker had his guys aim at the city
> If the Avengers hadn't showed up at the airport to blow off steam at each other
Cap's team wasn't trying to fight at the airport; they were just trying to get to Clint's helicopter. And the team that wanted to start a fight at the airport was already acting under the Accords.
>>82836856
It does when you literally built the fucking thing.
