Who was right?
Seriously who gives a shit?
>>82682944
>them not kissing
Who cares
>>82682944
Wonder woman.
>>82682970
I just want some discussion about the movie beyond the usual company wars stuff.
Some actual discussion about the ideological differences that Batman and Superman had.
>>82682944
They are both right. Superman is way too powerful to run around with no checks and Batman's mother is called Martha.
>IT'S LOIS
>LOIS LANE
>>82682990
>Some actual discussion about the ideological differences that Batman and Superman had.
But Superman didn't really have a motivation or ideological difference.
Batman, sure, but not supes.
>>82683068
Superman didn't like that Batman was acting outside the law and killing people I think
wasnt their conflict completely one-sided?
>>82682990
The writing was so dumb I cant even argue anything in BvS. I can only argue why BvS isnt good
Even the hateboner for BvS has died down, I dont even care anymore
it's Superman, dumbass
can't you see the picture?
>>82682944
Superman since he isn't going to destroy the world I guess
Did he bleed?
>>82683107
The Knightmare sequence implied that Superman was going to destroy the world so Batman is right
>>82683086
No, it was completely retarded
>>82683085
>acting outside the law and killing people
That son of a bitch brought the war to US
>>82682944
Superman you idiot.
This wasn't about portraying two characters in the right.
Batman was wrong and the villain for most of the movie.
He needed Superman to redeem him.
The movie is about Superman and Lex's struggle over Batman's soul though unfortunately it looks like most of the Clark investigating Batman subplots were cut from the theatrical release.
>>82683177
>The movie is about Superman and Lex's struggle
Then why was it called Batman vs Superman?
>>82683206
box office money
>>82682944
Batman.
This is a Superman that flies to Africa in an instant to save Lois Lane and does nothing to save the women from the criminal who is right on the other side of the bay and then complains of the way Batman saved them and treated the criminal.
The first time he meets Batman he pushes him into a car accident then wrecks his car and tells him to ignore people asking for help (next time they light your light ignore it) and to bury the bat calling it mercy. It's not hard to think that a guy like this could turn bad eventually.
To add to this there is the Flash vision that tells him he was right all along.
Obviosuly everyone knows that the real Superman wouldn't turn but this is a totally different situation.
>>82683085
But that wasn't actually presented in the film. They cut that out, it's in the ultimate cut. We can only go by what is presented, Clark had one speech (which was in the trailer) and it didn't really setup for the fight very well.
>>82683206
It was called Batman v Superman as in like a Court trial.
Because Batman is the grieving party trying to prosecute Superman for these perceived sins and transgressions. The title is from Bruce's point of view at the start of the film.
The idea being the film seems like it's about Lex and Bruce v Clark but is actually a subversion about Lex v Clark over Bruce.
>>82682944
That dude who blew himself after watching the first 30 minutes of the movie.
>>82683404
But where does supermans side play into this at all? When does he present his defence?
>>82683042
Underrated post.
Anyway, it's hard to see how Batman could be right about anything in this film. I mean, if his character was "this guy is too powerful to go around unchecked, so he needs to be held accountable," yeah, he's probably be right. But that wasn't his character. His character was "this guy is too powerful to go around unchecked, and even though he hasn't done anything evil yet, we have to murder him because there's a 1% chance he could do bad shit."
Superman was just like "it's pretty fucked up that this guy goes around branding people and the cops actually let him do it." That's pretty reasonable.
There wasn't really any actual ideological conflict. Well, a meaningful one, at least. It was just "I don't like you, you don't like me." That's not about ideology, really. Like, they're not even having the same conversation. Batman never responds to Superman's charge that he tramples on civil liberties. Superman never responds to Batman's charge that he is a threat to the world. They're just the reasons the script has for making them fight.
>>82683752
>Superman was just like "it's pretty fucked up that this guy goes around branding people and the cops actually let him do it." That's pretty reasonable
tell that to their victims, not everyone has a Superman watching over their shoulder
>>82683752
>"this guy is too powerful to go around unchecked, so he needs to be held accountable," yeah, he's probably be right. But that wasn't his character. His character was "this guy is too powerful to go around unchecked, and even though he hasn't done anything evil yet, we have to murder him because there's a 1% chance he could do bad shit."
But what's the difference?
>Superman was just like "it's pretty fucked up that this guy goes around branding people and the cops actually let him do it." That's pretty reasonable.
But we never got to see Superman act like that
>>82683260
wrong, read this shit
the headlines say shit like superman saving hobos, superman shifting tetonic plates to stop an earthquake, stopping viruses etc.
>>82683846
For a moment there I read "Heroic Superman Rescue" as "Erotic Superman Rescue"
Ultimately Superman was right. He managed to be all good AND all powerful (well, we assume, since he is gunna come back) despite what Lex said. He also was able to redeem Batman and have him re-instill his no kill code, despite Lex saying "the bell cant be unrung"
>>82683576
Well a key part of the film is that Lex is actively denying him the chance to present his defence.
He deliberately manipulates and sabotages a guerilla CIA intervention in Nairomi to twist a Samaritan act by Superman into an international scandal that no one will listen to and plays a part in the media scare campaign to enable his importing of Kryptonite and access the krypton technology.
And plays up Wallace's circumstances to create a farcical trial where his entire MO is blowing up Capitol building before Superman can even have the chance to speak.
Even in the big Superman vs Batman showdown Lex is deliberately robbing Superman of agency by blackmailing him and Batman himself is entirely unwilling to listen.
Superman's lack of a voice is all deliberate on the part of Lex.
Meanwhile compare that to Superman's actual actions where he's basically flying around the world doing purely samaritan acts in good faith contrasted to a media scare campaign that is completely at odds with his actions.
Superman's defence is through his actions and it's only when he finally, selfless sacrifices himself to defeat Doomsday that the world finally realises this.
As for when Bruce is redeemed it's in the moment when he finally sees through the facade created by Lex and his own insecurities and projections and realises that Superman isn't some unthinking unfeeling alien but just a young boy afraid of losing his mother just like him and in that realisation he understands that by killing Superman he has become Joe Chill.
That's Superman's side in this movie as it stands in the theatrical cut, it's definitely one that denies Superman's voice outside of his actions which do most of the speaking for him.
I'm personally hoping the Director's Cut adds more of Clark investigating Batman to show more of his perspective in that struggle.
>>82683846
he still didn't save those girls that were right on the other side of the bay and complained about Batman being brutal
>>82683839
Kind of like asking "what's the difference between having checks and balances on the president and just going to the White House to murder the president because there's a 1% chance that he could actually be a robot?"
>>82683895
>and Batman himself is entirely unwilling to listen.
It's not like Superman tried to approach him in a friendly way.
>>82683895
>Well a key part of the film is that Lex is actively denying him the chance to present his defence.
And because of that we never see his defence, we never learn his motivations and so the final confrontation is not compelling. Instead his Mother's kidnap being the tipping point, it's the only reason for him to fight batman and it's weak.
Why does superman fight batman?
>>82683938
But that is false equivalence. The chance of a the president being a robot is incomparable to the chance of an alien having a bad day. Add in what evidence we have on Kryptonians already as well.
>>82683987
"Bruce, please..."
I actually liked that.
>>82682981
They really look like they should in that pic.
>>82684040
Yeah well, that was too late and happened after the first meeting. Considering they left eachother on a threat I can't blame Batman for not waiting for him to talk.
It doesn't help that then Superman goes
>Listen *throws him to the other side of the place*
>I am here to talk *flies him through a palace*
>If I wanted you would be dead already!
Honestly the entire conflict could be avoided if they were both less stupid.
>>82684111
The ultimate edition apparently has Clark interviewing Gotham criminals and learning about Batman's methods. I think the "the bat is dead" comment will make more sense in that context.
So essentially superman fucks up in the first confrontation and won't reason, and batman in the second.
Instead we get out of character superman in the first confrontation threatening Bruce and freeing criminals and flying away.
>>82683846
Wow this is a really good catch that I didn't notice. The supergerm thing sounds really cool. I wish they had mentioned that a bit more in the movie. Any idea if they'll make anything of it?
>>82682944
Batman was proven 100% wrong. Superman was wrong that "men don't stay good." Even Wonder Woman was wrong in her thinking that mankind isn't good.
>>82682990
What's there to discuss?
Their opinions weren't even their own, it was a shell game by Lex Zuckerkike
Jesus what a horrible movie
Clark's reasoning and motivation is a bit flimsy because WB literally DELETED his entire fucking subplot
He actually travels to Gotham to find out about the Batman, interviews prisoners, talks to police, etc.
I mean, how do you cut the fucking subplot that actually informs why the main characters feels the way he does in the titular conflict.
Mark my words, the Director's Cut will be a huge improvement
>>82683279
>But that wasn't actually presented in the film.
He was clearly disturbed when he learned about the torture and when he got a closer look at the damage Batman was doing to people, plus his insistence to look into Batman and then making an ultimatum at him makes it pretty obvious he's got an axe to grind against Batman's brutal methods.
>>82683895
Superman never getting to speak and all that concentrated ugliness of the court scene killed this movie for me faster than anything else.
I haven't had such a visceral reaction to a cinematic movie scene in a while. Usually I feel this terribly unclean after movies like Hard Candy or Saw.
>>82685243
those brutal methods were fine when he used them to save Martha tho
>>82685278
it's a direct reflection of the ugly real world audience who shit on Superman's actions in Man of Steel, seeing only what they want, despite him being a true hero who saved 7 billion lives.
>>82685345
There's a fundamental difference in using excessive force when it is in context to primarily self-defense, and when you're fucking torturing people by branding them for life for no reason. The former can be justified, the latter can't, especially when the branding is said to be an automatic death sentence in jail.
>>82682944
those lucky few who chose not to watch this disappointing train wreck
>>82685408
he only branded two people ever, one of the tv news said that was the second case of bat branding ever done
>>82685278
triggered
>>82685278
I would argue that the scene was powerful and well directed if it caused such a reaction in you.
>>82685408
Didn't he murder a bunch of dudes while trying to steal their kryptonite?
>>82685437
it's established to be his m.o. now, with no reason to think he's going to not keep doing it unless someone stops him.
>>82685408
I didn't get why people would be killed if they were branded by Batman. It's implied that he's locked up a lot of people. Hell the entire Suicide Squad has been stated as having gone up against him and lost at one point or another. You'd think surviving an encounter with the Bat and having a brand would be a sign of respect since this Batman doesn't mind killing people
Did Superman kill that terrorist leader that had Lois hostage?
He got shoved through a concrete wall and his body even smashes through a second wall after that. Pretty hypocritical of Man of Murder to judge Bat of Murder.
>>82685513
Dudes who were actively shooting at him with rocket launchers and gatling guns. Batman's response was excessive use of force, but honestly, how would you stop them without using brutal tactics in such situation?
>>82685550
Movie says that he only started branding people recently.
>>82685578
But isn't he the instigator since he's stealing their stuff?
>>82685632
But they were very obviously being sketchy either way. He knew that
ITT: People still don't fucking realize that Batman was supposed to be the antagonist
>>82685571
No, he literally says in the movie he didn't kill anyone.
Also, I own the art book, they actually mention the huts in the africa scene are made of mud and plaster shit. he aint knocking the dude through brick.
I liked aspects of the movie and do like talking about it, but the OP has got to be baiting because ttheir fight was not about philosophical differences. Clark did at the beginning show he disagreed with batmans methods, but that gets dropped because he's got other shit to worry about. I actually liked that the hate seemed one sided for the most part. If they named it Superman and Batman: Dawn of Justice and didn't concentrate on them fighting so much, it would've been so much better. Instead of superman intervening in a big explosive car chase just to look pissed at batman, how about he flies down to him and calmly discuss his violent methods, and Bruce just spits in his face and tells him to get the fuck out of his city, which superman does. Make batman the villain of the movie, and let superman show Bruce (and the audience) what kind of hero he is. This could've been the perfect answer to MoS, showing Superman has grown into what Superman should be. I liked parts of BvS, but it has got to be the most disappointing movie I've ever seen. It had so much potential, all wasted
>>82685814
Quit with you facts and logic, anon! MAN OF MURDER!!!
>>82685571
>Did Superman kill that terrorist leader that had Lois hostage?
No, Clark even says he didn't kill anyone to Lois.
>>82685550
>I didn't get why people would be killed if they were branded by Batman
Well I suppose it's seen as a neon sign that you're a dirty rat who blabbed to the bat. Or Gotham prisons just kill anyone who seems to attract too much Bat-heat unless they've got protection.
>>82685814
he still went from 0 to 500 mph against a wall
>>82685894
Two walls
>>82685550
Might be like those stories of child molesters getting it worse in prison than other people. If the bat thought you were shit enough to brand, you must be a kiddy diddler or something
>>82685894
So he's bruised a little, who gives a fuck, it's a goddamn African terrorist warlord.
>>82685550
It was a recent thing though, he'd been Batman for 20 years. Alfred's "cruel men" speech pretty much implies this.
>>82685578
By tailing them and tracking me with my magic tracker I placed on the side of their truck that survived a skirmish worthy of 2004 Falleujah
>>82685894
No, Superman's fists shattered it before tackling him through
It's funny how people have a hard time suspending disbelief for this when the premise of Superman and Batman is inherently fucking ridiculous
Complain about something actually flawed in the movie, like Clark having almost no fucking dialogue
>>82685894
I mean,
1. we dont see his mangled body
2 . superman literally tells lois he didn't kill anyone.
it's such a non issue.
>>82686149
>>82686192
I am not really complaining, I just didn't like the scene
>>82686216
for what its worth that entire sequence was apparently destroyed in the theatrical cut and makes a lot more sense in the Directors Cut coming out
>>82685535
I think it's implied he's stopped branding when he chose not to brand Lex.
Super...man...I guess...?
You know, at least as far as the movie goes, I really don't know when all is said and done.
I don't think either of them were right really, they were just manipulated to...fight. It's not like either had a consistent platform to stand on, Supes maybe comes out a bit the better man because he was going to try to offer Batman a friendly hand when he realized Lex was manipulating the whole thing, before being beaten by him...but even then that's kind of flimsy.
It wasn't a battle of views or ideologies really. Heck it wasn't even a battle between friends and allies, which is supposed to be the big weight to a VS matchup like this.
Basically I'm saying they didn't think about it.
Can we just stop talking about the DCEU?
I don't care anymore. I'm just bored. It's not even fun to hate.
>>82682944
Let's say Superman and call it a day.
Or you can try to start a discussion. Your choice.
>>82682990
>ideological differences
>differences
>hey Batman I agree with you
>hey Superman I agree with you
>urgh you're too scary and mean! branding criminals is kind of wrong but I'm not going to do or say anything about it!
>urgh you're too stronk and aleon!
>let's fight because Lex told us to!
So much to talk about wew
>>82683068
>>82683279
It was clearly when he got the pics of Tue dead people because of batmans brand which is when he goes and breaks his car.
I didn't like the movie either but cmon man
They were both stupid retards.
I dunno, /co/, isn't Batman supposed to be smart? Why he is he always so stupid in these movies?
>>82683918
i have no idea what you are talking about
>>82685855
the philosophical fight was you cant be all good v all powerful
>>82685855
also there is no way that this was more disappointing than how much wasted potential the marvel movies have
and as far as superman being a hero like you wish he was well
>>82684364
>>82685855
shit i meant >>82683846
>>82686487
holy shit go to a different thread then you fucking autist, just leave
Who cares?
Doesn't affect the quality of the film itself either way.
>>82686487
You could just not go into DCEU threads
>>82687293
>how much wasted potential the marvel movies have
I hate this argument that a failred attempt to be something great is inherently better than a successful attempt at being something good
If so then every indie movie in a black and white filter and filled to the brim with random symbolism should be considered a masterpiece.
>>82687356
but it wasnt even a failed attempt, it worked on most levels, and the marvel movies arent even good, they are just chained together well rendered fight scenes
>>82687339
why bother making this comment, let us enjoy the movie we like
>>82682944
Who was right
>>82687383
I actually DID like it; it wasn't perfect by any means and it wasn't the best film all year, but it was a lot of fun for me.
But arguing over which fictional character was more "correct" only matters if your opinion of the film changes if your "team" wins in the movie, which is mind-bogglingly retarded to my mode of thinking.
It doesn't matter who was right as long as you enjoyed the film.
![tumblr_nd1qkqf4kL1rn8gxao1_500[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ePJc6Da.jpg "tumblr_nd1qkqf4kL1rn8gxao1_500[1].jpg")
>>82687395
Who was the right
>>82687372
If you read this thread you'll realize that no, it didn't work on most levels. The main plot of the movie didn't even make sense.
>>82683085
Isn't that exactly what Superman was doing?
