Who was right?
u'or mother
Both were right from a certain point of view.
Both and neither.
>>82606709
Both, depending on how you look at it.
Tony.
>>82606791
You mispelled Cap, Anon.
>>82606709
>Avengers shit
Tony
>Bucky shit
Cap
>Starks shit
Tony
Cap was 100% right about everything.
*cough*
If you seriously don't think Cap is completely right but Tony has a few good points you need to leave.
Should heroes be checked, probably. But after TWS, it's pretty clear to see how things can get fucked easily
Did people see the movie?
The movie literally shows Cap being right, and Tony joins his side before it's over.
I went in thinking Cap was right.
But the Russos (or Chris Evans?) even said that Tony was probably right in the end. How could supers operate independently and have no checks and balances?
And especially how could they cause so much destruction after chasing down a known villain.
Cap was wrong but for the right reasons.
Tony was right but for the wrong reasons.
>>82606820
But if they're not checked then they can't be heroes.
>>82606709
Tony.
>>82606849
But what if they NEED to go somewhere quickly to stop something, but the UN decides they can't?
What if the world ends because of red tape?
CIA would've settled the dispute easily
>>82606874
But what if they WANT to go somewhere quickly to stop something and their Quinjet gets blown to pieces because the country they went to doesn't like people operating outside the law?
>>82606709
Cap.
The United States basically controls the UN. In TWS, the United States created three floating fortresses that could snipe anyone in the world based on perceived threat to the United States and the only problem with this was that it was about to be turned against the US itself.
This is what governments in the MCU are capable of. Fuck them.At worst, the Avengers will be used. At best, they'll be restricted by so much red tape as to make them useless.
Comic Tony is right, MCU Steve is right.
>Tony thinks everyone needs to get checked after his mistake with Ultron
>even when the whole purpose behind Ultron was due to a vision of an imminent threat that will threaten the world and even the universe
>even when Thor backed him up in proving that the threat is real
I understand how he came to his way of thinking in CW through his history of experiences, but he's not looking into the future as much as Capt is.
>Cap worries about hypothetical situation in which Avengers aren't allowed to intervene when they are needed or used as muscle
>no such situation takes place in the movie
Tony/Vision were clearly right about the supervision stuff.
>>82607019
>It doesn't show up in the few days the movie takes place
>That means it'll never happen!
Poor logic.
>>82606709
Cap, the UN are puppets to higher european countries like Germany, UK, and those are puppets to America meaning its really AMERICA TELLING THE AVENGERS WHAT TO DO, and we all know America goes completely psycho when it has absolute power in its hands.
>protagonist wins in the end
>antagonist is punished
I'm gonna say the writers probably think Cap's in the right.
>>82607019
You literally just said it's a hypothetical situation
>>82606709
Cap is right, Tony is left.
You'll learn this one day, Woolie.
>>82606874
Then they go anyway. What, you think that they'll just sit around with their thumbs up their butts because some politicians said so? That was a stupid fucking argument. Cap went on and on about how he wouldn't surrender his right to choose, but they never would have REALLY taken it from him. He broke the law when it suited him throughout the entire movie, how would signing and then disobeying the accords be any different?
>>82607144
>What, you think that they'll just sit around with their thumbs up their butts because some politicians said so?
YES!
THAT IS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF THIS WHOLE THING
>but they never would have REALLY taken it from him.
Proof?
>>82606709
Cap
The UN is far too stupid and politicized to get anything done. Having to wait for the security council to give permission would have resulted in a nuked Manhattan, a destroyed East Coast, an Abomination, and the Earth being wiped clean of life.
Tony had a point about them leaping into action too quick and making people nervous. They could have done something more than saying "Fuck off" about the accords. It was a PR move, but nobody was playing ball. Hell, you'd think somebody would have at least ran it by someone in the intelligence community before publicly pursuing Crossbones.
The problem is that nobody in the world should have control over a troop of demigods and Hawkeye.
>>82607116
MCU Cap is IRL Murrika
>We're gonna free the shit out of you and if someone dies it's not our fault. AMERICA FUCK YEAH!
except MCU America sucks so he's more like AVENGERS FUCK YEAH!
The concept of registration is right. You want to enforce the law? There are certain requirements that come before we let people do that. You have super human abilities? That needs to be recorded just for something as simple as your medical record so we know you don't explode when surgery is done. In most of the western world you need a license for fucking everything, even owning a dog.
The way it was done here (and in the comic) was wrong and very obviously set up to be so with no room for an actual discussion on how given.
>>82607144
>Then they go anyway. What, you think that they'll just sit around with their thumbs up their butts because some politicians said so
That's the fucking point Cap is trying to make. They shouldn't care and go anyway, but these accords would make them criminals
>>82607159
The U.N has too much power its like a tyranny in disguise like the EU which is really a way for Germany to control the european economy.
>>82607130
deuteragonist
>>82607212
>concept of registration is right
Which is funny considering in comics SHIELD had all the info about pretty much everyone, super or not.
>>82606709
Tony, Cap was acting like an stupid retarded asshole while creating even MORE collateral damage just to save ONE guy.
>>82607264
Pretty much every super hero has gathered private information as well.
>>82607155
>Proof?
He broke the law throughout the entire movie, dipshit. Obviously he doesn't let the law get in the way of what he thinks is right. Even Tony broke the law to help Cap when he learned what was at stake and Black Widow helped Cap escape. But whatever anon, the Avengers have obviously proven themselves to be a bunch of pussies who kowtow to the bureaucracy. Signing that piece of paper to appease the people in power would have just been the end of everything. They would be forced to just sit by and watch the world burn because a bunch of super powered individuals just can't beat a piece of paper.
>>82606820
>But after TWS, it's pretty clear to see how things can get fucked easily
So that means that the walking weapons of mass destruction should not be checked at all, because ''things can get fucked up'' so lets not even try!
Tony was a 100% right.
The avengers are basically terrorists at this point.
>>82607250
Cap obviously doesn't care about being a criminal.
>>82606709
Tony was right, but Cap's fears are immediately proven true, so it's a wash.
>>82606823
>Tony joins his side before it's over.
To stop Captain from keep destroying everything around him!
Cap was. The bureaucrats who sought to leash the Avengers are the same cocksuckers who opted to nuke New York without giving the conventional military a chance to repel the Chitauri invasion
>>82606820
>But after TWS, it's pretty clear to see how things can get fucked easily
Things can go wrong every way. The question is do we just hope that the super heroes stay doing the right thing (not forgetting they can barely agree on stuff themselves), or use the system that while not perfect is what we use to run everything else
You wouldn't say lets not have a proper police force that is regulated cause sometimes there is corruption.
>>82607416
>You wouldn't say lets not have a proper police force that is regulated cause sometimes there is corruption.
But that's what happened after Winter Soldier.
The problems in this movie are caused by the Avengers doing missions that would be better suited for SHIELD.
>>82607338
>but they never would have REALLY taken it from him.
That is a big fucking assumption, though.
I need proof from you that this would actually have happened if Cap had signed the Accords.
I'd rather trust superheroes than any governments.
See the Internet in some countries? See how fucked up it is in some countries even in some supposed democracies.
The superheroes interest are far more useful for citizens than government's interest.
I'm not against government, but most likely they will not act in your interest otherwise you'd have 0 crimes, 0 drugs, no food scandal, electric cars everywhere, etc.
>>82607372
>Tony was right, but Cap's fears are immediately proven true, so it's a wash.
The problem is that Tony wanted the Avengers to have oversight, but the oversight they are organising sucked.
It doesn't matter how good your intentions are if you have bad people assigned to the job. The Accords was fine as a concept but it is clear no one in-universe really bothered to make sure it worked.
>>82607502
>I need proof from you that this would actually have happened if Cap had signed the Accords.
He broke the law to save Bucky and stop Zemo IN THE FUCKING MOVIE. He still chose to do what he believed to be right even though everyone was telling him no. On a fundamental level, he could still CHOOSE to break the accords to go where he's needed. He was just too fucking stubborn to play nice.
>>82607689
Isn't that a problem with any law? Even the most tightly worded law is at the mercy of the honesty and good will of those who enact and enforce it.
At least when a superhero goes bad, it's obvious.
>>82607712
But that's fucking wrong. Cap doesn't want to be a hypocrite. If he was okay with that, he'd have signed the Accords and then broken the law.
>all the shit in Civil Wars happens because Cap wanted revenge
>at the end he stops Tony from getting revenge because of "muh Bucky"
>>82607781
When the fuck did Cap want revenge? He was on the defensive most of the movie.
>>82607781
>Cap wanted revenge
Against who? For what?
>>82607726
>At least when a superhero goes bad, it's obvious.
Is it? Example Cap in this movie, he does arguably the right thing by saving a technically innocent man but breaks many laws and causes a lot of damage doing so
>>82607726
>Isn't that a problem with any law? Even the most tightly worded law is at the mercy of the honesty and good will of those who enact and enforce it.
>At least when a superhero goes bad, it's obvious.
The issue in-universe is that the Accords is just appeasement for the angry public. At no point did any world leaders tried to make sure Avengers can still function, they just like the political points they can score. And USA go along with it knowing that Ross would become the true leader of the Avengers, and being able to pawn any responsibility to the UN.
>>82607816
>Is it? Example Cap in this movie, he does arguably the right thing by saving a technically innocent man but breaks many laws and causes a lot of damage doing so
What is the point of obeying laws if you are going to let an innocent man die?
The laws are meant to serve justice, not the reverse. If you think it is fine to kill innocent people if it means obeying the law, then you don't have any laws at all.
>>82607803
He was chasing Rumlow because of personal vendetta.
That's why there's no War Machine and Vision in Nigeria.
>>82607911
He was chasing Rumlow because he was a former member of HYDRA and became a mercenary who obviously did not have good intentions.
Since, you know, he stole a biological weapon before being stopped.
>>82607886
So if they can justify it only to themselves then they can break any law they want?
Your idea only works under an objective morality where everyone agrees his action is right
>>82607911
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
>>82607816
And that's not going bad. Justice Lords/Injustice or Irredeemable are good examples of heroes going bad.
>>82607836
Of course the Avengers would still function, just as the personal hit squad of World Leaders.
Instead of Black Panther going out for revenge for his father, or sending in a German special ops team (despite it being Romania), he could just have his UN buddies order the Avengers to kill for him.
>>82607946
>So if they can justify it only to themselves then they can break any law they want?
Justify it to themselves?
What? The UN was wrong, Bucky was framed. Why do you want to kill an innocent man just because the UN said so? Isn't that exactly the problem with the Accords, in that the UN could tell Avenges to go murder innocent people like they ordered the German police to murder Bucky?
Since when do UNs get murder squads?
>>82607754
Nice principles. Too bad they shattered the Avengers.
And Rhodey's lower spine.
>>82608029
Oh well.
Tony has to live with being a fucking piece of shit that almost no one likes, as he deserves.
>>82608004
>could tell
The accords were about saying what the Avengers couldn't do, not what they could.
>>82606709
Tony, because the alternative was to get everyone arrested, retired, or on the run forever. At least Tony was trying to change the system from within.
>>82608063
And Cap has to live with being a criminal who split the Avengers in two because he couldn't deign to compromise.
>>82607932
>>82607950
Like I said both Vision and WM were absent in Nigeria.
If they went there as Avengers expecting Crossbones to do something sinister then they would bring their most powerful members.
They also didn't even know what was Crossbones target there so most likely Cap just learned Rumlow showed up in Lagos and he decided to act.
>>82608150
How is it compromise when his best friend gets killed for doing nothing wrong?
>>82608150
>split the Avengers in two because he couldn't deign to compromise.
Not to mention split Clint and Scott from their families, but they're also to blame for breaking the law in the first place knowing full well the consequences.
No idea what beef they had with Stark was. If anything, Stark's the reason they weren't gunned down by GSG9.
-Cap was right about the Avenger team being independent and not being a UN weapon.
-Tony was right about killing Bucky because he was a ex-american cyborg-super soldier assassin. It doesn't matter if Bucky was brainwashed or he did anything against his will, because he's still an ex-american cyborg super soldier assassin, you can't un-become or atone for that. Also cap was a huge faggot for putting "his ol' pal" Bucky before the Avengers. It's just a guy you used to be friends with, sheesh.
also you could argue that Tony agreed to the UN bullshit because pepper took his balls, and he was acting like a hormonal teenager / war veteran. and wasn't really himself.
Cap.
Tony LITERALLY couldn't follow the very rules he was fighting for.
It was how he was at the Siberian base- he disobeyed protocol
>>82608165
>How is it compromise when his best friend gets killed for doing nothing wrong?
That's the operative problem; Bucky may not have been in his right mind when he did those things, but as he said, he still did them, and he's very much still dangerous. Cap may have been right in pursuing the other 5 winter soldiers outside the law, but when it came to bucky, he was operation on complete emotion with no regard for the consequences.
>>82608165
Did you even watch the movie? Tony literally begged for a chance to take Bucky in alive. And you can't blame the government for trying to take down an enhanced brainwashed terrorist. He's innocent, but that doesn't mean he isn't a danger.
>>82608004
>Justify it to themselves?
He didn't get legal approval, therefore you are saying he only needs to justify it to himself it is the right action and he can break any law he wants
Again, are you saying it is okay for heroes to break any law they want if they believe they are right? Keeping in mind what is right or moral is not an objective fact
>>82608375
>Again, are you saying it is okay for heroes to break any law they want if they believe they are right? Keeping in mind what is right or moral is not an objective fact
There is nothing to keep in mind, the UN was demanding the execution of an innocent man without trial. If you are fine with that then clearly you don't care about accountability.
>>82608177
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about Stark, but
>GSG9
>competently taking down anything, especially Avengers.
>>82608159
>implying Scarlett "reality is my plaything" Witch isn't their most powerful memeber
>>82608190
>-Tony was right about killing Bucky because he was a ex-american cyborg-super soldier assassin.
Actually Tony never claim he was right to kill Bucky, just as Zemo never claimed it was right for him to kill Black Panther's father. Tony want to kill Bucky because that's what he wanted at the time, your attempt to justify it is pointless because Tony didn't need defending.
>>82608476
The UN was demanding the elimination of a known enhanced terrorist. Are you really saying that Bucky should have just been left alone, or that normal soldiers should abstain from lethal force and put themselves in greater danger just to take him alive? That's asking an awful lot. Yes, Bucky is innocent, but he still did those things. He's a danger, and if he can't be contained then he should be killed.
>>82608476
So yes any hero can break the law when they believe they are justified?
Do you not see how that means it is not obvious when a super hero goes bad? One could go around break all kinds of laws, fighting the military and causing a lot of damage and it wouldn't be clear to many if they were a villain or a hero. This is especially true if they didn't have all the same information as that hero, but even if they did they may take a situation like this and say well Bucky could still be a threat so action needs to be taken. Again your point only works under objective morality where everyone sees things the same way
>>82608538
This. Even then, Tony didn't seem like he was trying to kill Bucky so much as beat the fuck out of him. He had plenty of chances to kill him, andd barely used his extensive arsenal to do anything but destroy the environment around him.
>>82607354
>The avengers are basically terrorists
Almost got me, but you tipped your hand with that one. 2/10
>>82606709
They were both right and they were both wrong. Movie was way better then the comic it was based on.
>>82608534
I think you're mixing comic SW with MCU SW.
>be streetlevel hero
>sign in cordovia accord
>some mafiaso searched my name for info then killed my family
Thanks tony
>>82608159
War Machine still works for the military and the Vision is still effectively a newborn.
Plus it was a stealth mission, and walking tank and robot deity don't blend in as easily as white dude, black dude and two chicks.
>>82607911
He was after Rumlow because Rumlow was going to release a dangerous biological weapon upon innocent people
>>82608579
>He had plenty of chances to kill him
He was about to blow Bucky up with a missile. The only reason he couldn't was because he lost the aiming program, just like back in IM1 with Ironmonger.
>>82607354
Tony fucked up everytime.
We need to put in check. By Ross? By the guys who shitty security literally let Zemo interrogate Bucky ending in his escape because mind control may I add. Can you trust any fucking organization?
Prison to guys who have saved the earth
You walk free after Ultron
Even with evidence, Ross to the surprise of no one is an asshole
Cap as right as Cyclops and that is Right as fuck
>>82608559
>that normal soldiers should abstain from lethal force and put themselves in greater danger just to take him alive?
Yes, that's the whole fucking point of law enforcement. It's not the UN's place to be Judge, Jury, and Executioner. It's pretty clear if the Avengers started working for the UN, they'd be the ones told to murder whoever pissed off world leaders this week.
>>82608665
On the other hand, there's no mention of the accords requiring superheroes to unmask, unlike the SRA.
>>82608767
But it is for heroes as you have said it is okay for them to break laws if they feel justified in doing so? Otherwise you whole point falls apart
>>82608673
>don't blend in as easily as white dude, black dude and two chicks
Everyone there was black so both SW and BW stood out.
Also both Cap and Falcon were wearing their suits so that's not blending either.
>>82608857
But they can cover up that shit.
You can't put a coat over War Machine and get him inconspicuous.
>>82608029
Vision shattered Tony's spine, while trying to kill Falcon
>>82607019
Did you miss the very real threat of Zemo in the film that the UN was completely oblivious to?
And this is just one guy who literally swapped places with a Doctor he looked nothing like and they let him in anyway.
Yeah no. The UN proved why they can't be in charge of the Avengers almost instantly.
>>82608915
Rhodey's spine*
>>82608838
Superheroes are reactive, not active.
>>82607019
>Avengers don't get the chance to take in Bucky, a German killing squad was just sent in to shoot first and ask questions later
>If Cap hadn't told Ross and Tony to shove their thumbs up each other's asses and intervened, Bucky would have died for a crime he didn't commit
That is exactly the kind of thing Cap was talking about
>>82607116
>liberals go completely psycho when it has too much power
ftfy
>>82608973
That doesn't change the point, being reactive still means they are making a subjective choice that here leads them to break the law. Even when presented with all the same facts a different conclusion come be reached like Bucky needs to be taken down no mater if he was brainwashed and that he could still in fact be dangerous.
Seeing as you have said it is okay for them to break the law, who is good or bad in that case is no longer clear
>>82608915
Vision was aiming for Falcon's flight pack, and the fight happened in the first place because of Cap.
>>82609076
>Even when presented with all the same facts a different conclusion come be reached like Bucky needs to be taken down no mater if he was brainwashed and that he could still in fact be dangerous.
No, you are still talking about killing someone without a trial. If you can do it once, you can do it again. And soon you can send a murder list to the Avengers every week.
>>82609076
Stopping a crime in progress isn't breaking the law.
And there's a difference between "taking down" and "shot on sight".
>>82606709
I like how Zemos plan was to force the Avengers to choose between Cap and Iron man and of course they all went to Cap at the end, because its the side where you don't have to face consequences, were you don't have to feel any remorse, where Wanda can fuck up and thats ok, she'll do better next time, where a hunted terrorist doesn't have to stand before the law to be proven innocent or guilty, where Widow and Hawkeye can just forget about the horrible things they've done in the past, where Cap is always in command and doesn't get to pay for wrong decisions, where noone contradicts his view because he is such a nice guy, where he makes important decisions based on personal matters instead of thinking of the greater good.
Unlike Tony who has to pay for all the damage done, who gets blamed for all the shit because he is a public figure, who always thinks about possible solutions for the future but he is an asshole, so better choose the heroic side.
>>82609112
Which would have caused Falcon to plummet to the ground and become flesh paste. meaning Vision really was intending to kill him.
>>82609112
>The fall that Broke Rhodey's spine in the War Machine armor wouldn't have killed Falcon
K
>>82609151
Iron Man specifically tells Vision to take out Falcon's thrusters, not his wings, so he could glide to the ground.
>>82606709
the way i see it, Tony is a megalomaniac (a typical liberal), and Cap is freedom incarnate.
I think the answer is obvious.
>>82609129
>>82609130
But you said super heroes are allowed to break the law if they think they are doing good. Or is it now only some laws which you have made no clear distinction why apart from appealing to your own morals which aren't universal?
You realise even then that can still lead to it not be clear if they are good or bad? You keep going on about the UN but that is not the point I had a problem with, the issue is you said it is easy to tell when one goes bad and that is clearly not true
>>82609142
>Unlike Tony who has to pay for all the damage done, who gets blamed for all the shit because he is a public figure, who always thinks about possible solutions for the future but he is an asshole, so better choose the heroic side.
If that was the case Tony should be rotting in a maximum security prison for creating Ultron
>>82609179
he clearly didn't have that good an aim/certainty it would hit right but took the shot anyway
>>82609179
As powerful as the blast was it would've have shot through Falcon and he would've been dead before he hit the ground
>>82609169
He said "make him a glider" so it would have been like he lost power but still had intact wings to glide to ground with.
>>82609216
>>82609247
True. It would have hit if Falcon hadn't dodged - but if he didn't dodge enough it could have taken out his wing and he'd end up like Rhodey.
Heck, it's only a matter of time before that happens in combat.
>>82609247
It would have gone through falcon and hit warmachine anyway, falcon just dodged it. Fucking vision.
>>82609198
Again, stopping a crime in progress isn't illegal. The Avengers didn't do anything to Crossbones and co in the beginning until they started their attack.
>>82606709
t'challa
>>82609291
Are you saying Cap broke zero laws in this movie? Are you saying it is impossible to break laws while trying to stop what you think is a crime?
The fact you are unable to actually answer my main point already shows you know I am right
>>82609247
He said "turn his wings into a glider" meaning to disable them so they don't work not destroy it
>>82609300
This. Only one that realized/overheard Zemo's plans.
Also he supports girl on girl fighting, He can't be that bad,
>>82609326
Probably the only law he broke was crossing borders without passing through border control. And that's just an assumption, since it's not shown outright.
The Slovokia Accords weren't ratified by Congress, so as an American he wasn't yet bound by them.
>>82606709
Cap was right about everything except telling Tony what happened to his parents.
>"what if they send us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if we need to go somewhere and they won't let us?"
>"lmao Cap ur talkin out ur ass"
>both of those things end up happening in the movie
Cap was willing to stand down UNTIL he heard there was a shoot-on-sight order for Bucky.
Cap was going to sign the accords UNTIL he found out they were keeping Wanda captive.
Cap was ok with keeping Bucky in custody UNTIL they allowed Zemo to infiltrate his cell and steal a bunch of info on still-unstable supersoldiers.
Every step of the way Cap was willing to compromise and then was let down. And even at the airport he tried to explain the situation and Tony pulled the same "shut up im right ur wrong" shit he pulled in Age of Ultron.
>>82609343
But the blast was enough to completely disable the War Machine armor, if it would have hit it's intended target Falcon would've been fucked
>>82609407
The power source on WM (and IM) armor is what keeps them in the air.
If Falcon's power source is disabled, he can glide to the ground. WM and IM just plummet.
>>82609112
>and the fight happened in the first place because of Cap
Nope Cap tried talking to Tony before the fight and Tony wrote him off as delusional. Fight happened because Tony wouldn't listen. Vision shot Rhodey because Tony told him to take the shot. Tony's fuck up, through and through.
>>82609394
But why didn't Cap keep trying to tell Tony? Especially in the scene where the teams are all lined up? Seemed like the perfect time to step between them and say "look there are Winter Soldiers times five about to be activated, let's put this on hold and go do that first."
>>82609464
Rhodey ordered the shot.
>>82609445
The power source on WM is also buikt into the suit and under thick armored glass. If it can penetrate that it can kill unarmored Falcon.
>>82609142
>this is the assbackwards logic of a starkfag
>ABLOO BLOO BLOO WHY AREN'T WE SHOVING THE FACT WANDA ACCIDENTALLY GOT PEOPLE KILL IN HER FACE AT ALL TIMES
>ITS NOT LIKE THE BOMB GOING OFF ON THE GROUND WOULD OF KILLED A WHOLE LOT MORE PEOPLE OR ANYTHING
>DON'T FORGET TO NOT LET ANYONE KNOW I CREATED ULTRON AND NEARLY CAUSED GLOBAL EXTINCTION
>>82609506
Only if it hits Falcon's body, which it wouldn't if he didn't dodge.
>>82609497
>why didn't Cap just stand there and keep talking while Iron Man punches his face
Gee I dunno anon.
No matter how you slice it Cap was more willing to talk than Tony was. If we're assigning blame for the fight happening Tony takes more of it regardless of how far from perfect Cap was.
I agree with Cap ideologically, but I agreed with Stark when he snapped at Bucky, because I know in the same situation with the same equipment I and anybody else would have reacted in the same way.
>>82606709
/pol/.
>>82609198
>But you said super heroes are allowed to break the law if they think they are doing good.
The UN is breaking their own laws about due process. It seems you have absolutely no problem with UN not obeying its own laws so we are done here.
on being accountable
Steve
the attempted murder
Tony
>>82609565
No anon. Cap just stops. Like, he tries, what once at the airport scene? If he REALLY did not want to fight keep trying. It's the only part of the movie where it was a bit jarring. Put some of that effort you used to save Bucky and use it to tell Team IM. Don't just keep assuming he won't listen.
But for real, that was a weak point in the film for me. Of course you have to have the "character A tells character B theres another threat but character B doesn't listen" but it seemed really weak at that point.
>>82607019
No. The worst part is about people who say that Avengers need to have 'checks and balances in-universe' are stupid, because even if they all signed the Accords they could all go against it, and who is going to do anything about it? The Accords are stoopid beaucratic nonce-sense.
>>82609553
The beam looked pretty damn powerful. I don't know how you can guarantee it wouldn't punch through his pack and hit him at the base of the neck or something.
>>82609643
>Don't just keep assuming he won't listen.
He literally explained everything and Tony was all like "nah fuck you"
>>82609643
>Don't just keep assuming he won't listen.
This was no assumption. Iron Man didn't listen. Whybis it all on Cap to keep trying to talk over and over when Tony won't even listen for a second?
>>82607019
>no such situation takes place in the movie
Uh, the whole fucking Siberia thing you dumb shit. Watch with your eyes open next time.
>>82609648
The way he was angled and where he holds his head while flying, Vision's beam would of blown right through the back of his head and killed him.
>>82606709
I haven't been here for a week or so now. How did /co/ or the US receive CW?
>>82607212
>In most of the western world you need a license for fucking everything, even owning a dog.
And that's a good thing, you Nazi?
>>82606709
Neither and both. They balanced it well.
>>82606820
I like what Cap said about the accords just passing the blame. It's a Tony thing to do, considering what happened.
>>82609771
Looks like the US liked it a lot, but not as much as the foreigners? I dunno, before it came out here it seemed a lot of people were saying it's the best MCU movie and now almost no one is.
Tony was right about the accords.
Steve was right about Bucky.
>>82609669
He literally did not, iirc. Cap started, Tony interrupted, Cap delivers the "you split the Avngers line", then Underroos shows up. Cap had more opportunities to telly Tony, but didn't. Why not tell him then, or at the team line up moneyshot scene? I guess it's weird to me that Cap, of all people wouldn't keep trying to prevent the fight.
>>82609704
Because Cap tried once before the fight. And that's not enough. Bucky said that the Winter Soldier Force Five could take out a country in a night; that sounds like something you try to convey to other teammates constantly, even they don't listen to you the first time.
I seriously can't believe that Tony and Rhodey think that people like Ross and the UN should have any more control over the strongest military powers on Earth. Conceptually Tony's point of view is better, but he's not looking at how the MCU governments have worked out over the years.
On the flip side, I think Cap and Tony were projecting themselves into their views of other people. Cap has more faith in others however misplaced while Tony sees more of his own mistakes as possibilities in the others.
I wish Clint had more lines to talk about the issues. It seemed like he was getting at how laws can change to suit people's goals when he was going the futurist.
>>82607689
>The Accords was fine as a concept but it is clear no one in-universe really bothered to make sure it worked.
>tfw this is too real
>>82607836
>the Accords is just appeasement for the angry public.
People often forget this
Personally I'm still baffled that Tony's not behind fucking bars over Ultron.
I mean, Wanda shot a bomb into the air (where it killed people) from the ground (where it would've killed people anyway) and suddenly she's public enemy #1.
Tony creates an AI that nearly causes global extinction and he's still giving speeches to MIT.
>>82609839
>Tony interrupted,
Post should have ended there. You keep trying to blame Cap even though he's trying a hell of a lot harder than Tony is to be reasonable. Keep in mind, this isn't the first time Tony outright refuses to consider what Cap says. This happened in both Avengers movies.
Past behavior indicates Tony won't even try to listen. Cap attempts to reason with him anyway. Tony doesn't listen, big surprise.
>>82609815
Steve was lucky about Bucky is more like it
>>82607781
Cap saved Tony from killing an innocent man.
>>82609913
Wanda should be in jail for what she did in AoU. The MCU isn't particularly well written or balanced to be honest
>>82607946
Everyone agrees murder is wrong so that's pretty convenient. That's probably why Cap doesn't break the law to arrest weed dealers or something. It would be too controversial. Being anti-murder is pretty universal though.
>>82608877
>You can't put a coat over War Machine and get him inconspicuous.
Laughed at the image. Thanks.
Cap was right,
>Muh NYC
Literally an alien invasion. Without the Avengers, millions more die, or worse.
>Muh DC
Hydra tried to use Stark Technology to overthrow the US government and kill millions of lives.
>Muh Sokovia
An AI Stark created went bonkers and started its genocidal path of human extinction. Avengers literally saved 95+% of the world's population
>Muh Lagos
Avengers stop an international terrorist and mercenary from stealing a horrible biological weapon and unleashing it on human population centers. Under pressure Scarlet Witch is responsible for the death of upwards of 20 civilians, rather than tens of civilians and Steve Rogers.
Cap would do it again and again and again
>>82608593
She beat the fuck out of Vision who is really her only competition for the title.
>>82606820
A good point that was briefly brought up for Tony's side was the fact that they believed they would be restricted eventually regardless of the accords. The benefit of going with the accords was showing that they were willing to cooperate and would give them more pull than if they were forced into it later.
>>82606709
They were both retarded for not trying to meet half way
Cap: so what if we kill a shit ton of people? lel muh justice was servd
Tony: He killed muh parents while under the control of someone else I'll just kill him that will make it all ok
>>82609809
>a lot of people were saying it's the best MCU movie and now almost no one is.
Really? I'm surprised. It's gotten a lot of hate threads now? This thread seems discussing it pretty well.
>>82610043
But even that is proven wrong when he gives Ross the info on Zemo and Ross just doesn't care
>>82610059
>not thinking it's the best MCU movie = hate
wew lad
>>82609921
I have a legitimate question pertaining to this; Cap is the kind of person that never gives up. We see this in his pursuit of Bucky, a man who looked like he didn't want to be found. He wanted to lay low, be alone, etc, but Cap didn't give up on him. But he did give up on trying to tell Tony about the WS program. Why? Bucky was shown to be resistant in the past and in this movie he initially tried to get away from everyone, but Cap came back. Why didn't Cap put as much effort into telling Tony, who resisted him too?
Reminder that saying Cap cares more about Bucky is a viable and acceptable answer. I think that gives him more depth, though it's kinda obvious he does.
>>82610059
I think post movie hype, I'd rank it below TWS. Something about this movie irks me, I just haven't decided what.
>>82610102
My bad. I just hadBvSthread flashbacks
>>82610123
>Something about this movie irks me, I just haven't decided what.
Maybe because it's not a black and white cape movie?
I'll just feel like an idiot parroting what Jay Mike and Rich said on RLM so I'm just going to say they fucking nailed their view on the conflict in this film.
Holding the Heroes accountable for collateral damage is fucking stupid and even if they were being regulated there would still be collateral damage, and most of the drama surrounding bucky could be resolved if people would sit and talk for like 5 minutes instead of just fighting.
>>82610102
This. Winter Soldier, Iron Man and GoTG are all better films. Civil War is still a good film but it's nothing ground breaking
>>82606709
Cap was right.
>>82610123
>He wanted to lay low, be alone, etc, but Cap didn't give up on him. But he did give up on trying to tell Tony about the WS program. Why? Bucky was shown to be resistant in the past and in this movie he initially tried to get away from everyone, but Cap came back. Why didn't Cap put as much effort into telling Tony, who resisted him too?
Probably because underneath Bucky's intentionally-distant demeanor Cap knows his best friend is under there.
Under Tony's ego and self-absorption, deep down, is there a guy who is willing to hear his comrades out? I don't think Cap has ever seen any evidence that there is.
>Half the avengers are fugitives now
>Covered a murder
>Protected the murderer
>Didn't even want to talk stuff out
Who knows OP?
>>82610206
>Didn't read the accords
>Thought Bucky bombed the UN at first
>Still beat the shit out of cops that were just doing their job
I wonder what Steve would have done if Bucky was the one to bomb the UN
>>82610243
He would turn Bucky and Himself in, asking for leinency on Falcon.
>>82608710
No he wasn't, he was trying to close the silo door.
If he wanted to kill Bucky, he could have just used the laser to do it instead of just using it to slow down Cap.
It's weird, because Stark seems to alternate between trying to brutally subdue Bucky and outright blowing his head off. He was so unhinged at that point, I'm not even sure Stark knew what he wanted to do with Bucky.
>>82610243
>just doing their job
>shoot to kill orders
>throwing grenades in the window without identifying themselves as police or giving Bucky a chance to surrender
>just doing their job
>>82610275
Yeah, sure he would. Cap is better than you anon. Your laws mean nothing to him
>>82608578
But he didn't break single fucking law.
Mindcontrol removes agency. Is a gun to blame for being used in murder you fucktard?
>>82610185
>Under Tony's ego and self-absorption, deep down, is there a guy who is willing to hear his comrades out? I don't think Cap has ever seen any evidence that there is.
I'm pretty sure Starks too worried about the only family he knows becoming kill-on-sight fugitives to care to much about the winter soldiers at that moment
>>82610185
>Under Tony's ego and self-absorption, deep down, is there a guy who is willing to hear his comrades out?
Yeah, there is, but like you said, Cap wasn't the one to see it, or at least didn't see it enough. I mean we've seen Tony humble down before, but I guess Cap hasn't seen that side of him.
>>82610155
>Maybe because it's not a black and white cape movie?
No, no, there's something else, like little charm? I think it feels more like a bridge than any other Marvel movie. Probably because of BP and Spider-Man, and the fact that it'll lead into IW. Also I think the whole best friends fighting thing wasn't too big a conflict for Cap and Tony. There weren't the closest of friends, after all.
>>82610300
They do that because they THINK he's a terrorist, of course they won't give him a chance. But then again Cap attacked cops and that's clearly against the law.
>>82610300
He's a well known super terrorist a shoot to kill order is warranted
>>82610314
Our laws, when unjust mean nothing to him. Cap, even when a tiny manlet has always had a strong, and accurate moral compass
>>82610325
>kill-on-sight fugitives
The fact that this is even a consideration shows how fucked up Ross is.
>>82610357
Keep in mind that Cap didn't know Buck wasn't the terrorist at that point. All he has is Buckys word
>>82610367
Theyd just say he tried to reach for a weapon and they took no risks. You know, the Bin Laden story
>>82606709
Cap of course
Goverment control is always bad in fiction
Also muh friendship and mind control
It's his name on the title
>>82610360
>>82610357
Loki and Strucker were both taken alive.
>>82606717
Well from my point of viewthe Jedi are evil.
>>82610367
>All he has is Buckys word.
We can say the same about the cops. What if Bucky was lying then?
>>82610364
Nothing about taking out Bucky was unjust
>>82610385
Cap DID know they were going to kill him. Even if he was the terrorist you don't execute suspects in cold blood.
>>82610385
How did bucky teleport from Berlin to Bucharest?
It was a setup.
>>82610430
American Law, and UN rules states otherwise
>>82610441
He wouldn't have handed him over. The point is that Cap doesn't trust the government so who would he hand him over to? He would have had no other choice but to go on the run with him
>>82610430
How about sending the avengers to aprehend the fugitive super soldier non lethaly for questioning and detainment instead of sending normal soldiers as a KILL SQUAD who are more likely to actually get killed
>>82610425
>What if Bucky was lying then?
Then they were still executing a suspect in cold blood, they failed to identify themselves as police, and AMD AND AND they opened up by throwing grenades in the window. For a movie where the avengers get blamed for carelessness that takes the cake. What if Bucky WAS a terrorist and he had hostages? Oops, the cops killed them all. Sorry about that.
>>82610477
>How about sending the avengers to aprehend the fugitive super soldier non lethaly
I agree. The Avengers should have been sent. You know who stopped them from doing that? Cap.
>>82606709
Both.
Registration isn't an inherently bad thing; if a guy can blow shit up with the power of his mind, then that should probably be noted in a file somewhere. Those kind of people need to have accountability.
But you can't make those people fight for you, either. More than that, most government bodies are so corrupt or mired in red tape and bureaucracy to be entirely ineffectual.
It's like communism; a perfect idea on paper, but complete bullshit in practice.
>>82610470
He handed him over to War Machine. Obviously he had no problem taking Bucky into custody.
>>82610520
>You know who stopped them from doing that? Cap.
Literally how
>>82610537
Because they were completely surrounded not by choice
>>82610507
So, according to you
>What if Bucky was brainwashed and killed Stark's parents and other people while in said state? Oops, sorry about that.
>>82610441
Looking at the governments of the MCU, Not only was Cap right, Tony was literally as wrong as can possibly be. Not only are the governments inherently corrupt and restricting, there's always the constant threat that fucking Hydra is giving you the Intel and green lights.
>>82610557
He said he was the only one who could bring Bucky in alive which we know is untrue and went after him without his team
>>82610572
War Machine was the first person sent who didn't try to kill them. They were surrounded by cops and still fought their way out.
>>82610607
Yeah then they were surrounded, as in a big circle, by war machine, Black Panther and all the cops. It wasn't by choice
>>82610598
None of the other Avengers even tried to go. The choice was always Cap or the death squad
>>82610596
Zola was right. If Cap can't trust democracy anymore then Hydra won
>>82610578
Same would apply. He can't be held accountable for actions he had no control over.
It's not like being inebriated and running someone over, it's closer to being forced to do something under duress
>>82610659
Cap is their leader
>>82610642
>>82610598
You guys need to compare notes. Did Cap go because he thought only he could bring Bucky in alive, or because he didn't want Bucky brought in at all?
>>82606709
Neither of them were right.
>>82610707
Well I'm paraphrasing but Cap does say "I'm the only one who can bring Buck in without getting killed" or something like that. Does Cap hate Vision? He doesn't seem to implement him all that much
>>82609988
>Muh NYC
Alien invasion caused by one of Avengers members' brother.
>Muh DC
>Hydra tried to use Stark Technology
Nice blaming others skills you have there, Fury.
>Muh Lagos
>rather than tens of civilians and Steve Rogers
Nobody would care about bunch of nigerians. But instead SW killed wakadians. Also Rogers was the reason Crossbones decided to blow himself in the first place.
>>82610689
And yet half the team doesn't follow him in this film. And the ones who did, would be considered criminals for it, nust like Falcon was. There was no option to bring all the Avengers in, sanctioned by the accords, to take down Bucky.
>>82610681
While I agree with that and the fact that Steve had good reasons to doubt the government, I really can't justify how he had the right to meddle with such a conflict.
>>82610002
And then War Machine fucked her up with simple sound wave gun.
>>82610743
Ok so the other guy is completely wrong and Cap did intend to surrender as soon as they weren't fighting for their lives.
>>82610783
They went in grenades first trying to kill Bucky, that's why
>>82610789
/co/ really needs to stop treating these fights as DBZ power levels. Wanda may be the most powerful person in the world but an average chuckle fuck sniper could still blow her head off
Lets say Bucky was allowed trial, and the best attorney Stark can buy. How could they prove he was under mind control during any of his killings? They don't have the red book with his trigger commands.
Also. It's clear that Bucky didn't commit the bombing. He has vivid memories of his mind controlled murders, yet was shocked to learn of his most wanted status for the bombing.
So we should be asking, as viewers, who bombed the UN? Zemo?
>>82610596
Technically, any Hydra influence over the political spectrum was demolished when the entirety of SHIELDs information was leaked to the Internet, since all the hydra-loyal politicians and officials were exposed
>>82610790
Well the whole thing doesn't make much sense because if Cap went after Buck at all he's still breaking the law so if he were to hand him in he would also have to hand over himself.
>>82610878
>Lets say Bucky was allowed trial, and the best attorney Stark can buy. How could they prove he was under mind control during any of his killings? They don't have the red book with his trigger commands.
Hydra files leaked to the internet?
>So we should be asking, as viewers, who bombed the UN? Zemo?
The movie spells out that it was Zemo
>>82610885
True, but if hundreds of Chinese spies in high places of the US power structure were outed tomorrow, how long would it take to trust the government again?
>>82610885
>all the hydra-loyal politicians and officials were exposed
not according to Agents of SHIT
>>82610878
They told you it was Zemo, pay attention next time.
They found prosthetics in his apartment that looked like Bucky.
>>82610878
Zemo
They mentioned prosthetics and a wig
>>82610936
>TV
>canon
>>82610913
>Hydra files leaked to the internet?
This. It's how Zemo got his hands on the trigger words.
Was that Kree blood they used to make those other Winter Soldiers?
>>82610967
>Black widow leaked Hydra files all over the internet
I still don't see why this was a good idea
>>82610967
No, pretty sure he got the trigger words from the red book.
But how would they explain Bucky's longevity without cryo-sleep? Would a court buy that he did everything willingly, and was willingly put in cryo between jobs for 90 years and simply schose to do absolutely nothing ever outside of murdering and cryo?
I don't think it's possible to pinpoint who was 'right', but I believe that Tony had the best strategy. His plan was:
>FOR GODS SAKE ROGERS, SIGN THIS SHIT SO WE WON'T BECOME INTERNATIONAL CRIMINALS! WE CAN DEAL WITH THIS SHIT LATER!
He had no intention of following the accords by the letter and hinted that we would twist and turn it around to get what he/they wanted.
>>82610901
>he's still breaking the law
Who cares? He's breaking the law to save someone's life
>>82611024
I don't think the government would send the Avengers to carry out assassinations anyway. Cap singing that paper wouldn't really mean anything
>>82609612
Are we EVER going to see him again?
>>82611022
He's saying that the leaked files led to the red book
>>82611024
>FOR GODS SAKE ROGERS, JUST LET THEM MURDER YOUR FRIEND NOW AND WE CAN DEAL WITH THIS SHIT LATER!
>>82611048
We know why Cap did it but all I'm saying is he made himself a fugitive so bringing in Bucky also means handing himself over
>>82611071
Right but would they use the leaked files to go confiscate the red book to use as evidence in court? Hard to say without knowing exactly what was in the files.
>>82611072
Stark's condition was that they bring Bucky and Cap in alive (though to be fair, I guess Steve didn't know that.)
When Black "Literally Government" Panther jumps to the anti Government side, you know there's something to Cap's side. And it's not just the glorious gay enhanced human orgies either.
>>82611079
I think he's fine with that
>>82611024
I'd like to point out that Cap said something like the Accords could enable the super heroes to pass the blame to the UN or any governing body giving them the stop and go signal, and that's such a Tony thing to do given his current circumstance.
>>82610783
He knew Bucky was innocent and that he was going to be executed on sight.
Even after evidence that proved Bucky was innocent came up, they still wanted him executed
>>82611123
>Stark's condition was that they bring Bucky and Cap in alive
Why did the grenade parade show up then?
>>82611123
Cap almost said yes until he knew Wanda was being held. He knew Tony would react that way and could react way worse than that.
>>82611140
Then he's short sighted. If he was also taken in he would be in no place to help Bucky later on
>>82611165
>He knew Bucky was innocent
Not at first
>>82611193
And if Bucky was killed he definitely wouldn't get help. What's your point?
>>82606709
Steve was right in the sense not to trust the accords, but Tony was justified in trying to do what he felt was right to prevent further mistakes.
Then again Cap wanted to save Bucky and had his own personal agenda because of that, and Iron-Man was guilt tripped because of his own agenda.
In a sense they were both right but both wrong. At the start of the movie they both looked like 2 heroes doing the right thing. At the end they both looked like 2 heros doing the wrong thing. I didn't come away siding with one of them. Tony wanted to kill Bucky for killing his parents which made him snap emotionally. Steve hid a precious secret from him and Bucky of course murdered Tony's parents. They both were in the wrong and right and thats the great dynamic.
Honestly i'm just glad we can actually have these conversations. This movie could've easily been 'Make Cap look flawless, make tony look like a asshole' like the comics.
>>82611216
Still doesn't change >>82610507
>>82611220
That the Avengers are all incompetent
