>is told that all these fights are creating too much collatoral damages
>keeps getting into more fights and causing more collateral damage
>too busy being all "MUH BUCKY" to realize he keeps making things worse, jeopardizing innocents and making himself look bad
>every character in the movie is trying to solve things by saying "dude, Cap. Just listen to us, man. Please." Even Tony is trying to be diplomatic, and he was all "NAH IT'S MY SUIT. SUCK MY DICK, CONGRESS LOL"
>chooses to solve all of his problems with punches
>ends up getting his friends locked up in a prison in the middle of the ocean, separating at least two from their families and kids
Remind me again why I'm supposed to root for him? "NO U MOVE"? That just sounds childish, especially when it's being spoken out loud.
Even in that final shot, he looks more like a villain. I sided with him in the comics, but his side of the argument was so bare.
He was literally being naruto/sasgay tier with this shit, Tony was right
>>82598160
>Remind me again why I'm supposed to root for him?
They're entirely reactionary and never start the fights that would destroy the world, they're the ones that stop it. Unless you prefer the alternative of Thanos-overrun Earth, HYDRA controlling the world, and/or total annihilation via So-long-Earth-kovia.
Tony was right in the comics too, it was just his execution that was flawed and turned evil so that Cap would appear to be right
>>82598160
> implying he wasn't trying to leave the airport peacefully
> implying tony didn't start the confrontation
> implying muh bucky wasn't a frame job
> implying he didn't bust his friends out of jail
> OP wants to see an innocent man assassinated by special forces for a crime he did not commit
> OP doesn't realize that the price of freedom is high and a price he is unwilling to pay
Cap did nothing wrong
>>82598160
>Remind me again why I'm supposed to root for him? "NO U MOVE"? That just sounds childish, especially when it's being spoken out loud.
have you never stood for anything in your life?
jesus man, give a fuck about SOMETHING.
>>82598160
Because it was Tony's side ignoring investigation and due process.
>>82598160
Captin America is like Superman.
It doesn't matter what they actually say the have the moral superiority by default
Cap is tied with Loki as the best Marvel movie villain
>>82598355
I believe in what Tonyand the others were trying to do, though.
Steve really couldn't rationalize anything beyond the first argument. Things kept escalating and escalating and he just didn't care or show remorse.
>>82598255
You guys act like the UN on Marvel Earth is the UN here. They mobilized and would have taken Bucky, I believe, had not Cap interfered. They did that shit in minutes.
They found Bucky. Steve used their information to track him down. Working for the UN makes sense. They have the resources, they're not afraid to use them. The situation, had they not decided to go all libertarian on it, would have had them access to more information and some much needed grown up decision making.
More planning can't be a bad thing for them considering that their on the fly shit while apparently saves the day also gets a lot of innocent people flattened by buildings.
The dumbest fucking thing about this movie is how many issues Cap caused and in the end, Bucky ends up frozen again anyway what the fuck was the point of this movie
NEITHER SIDE IS 100% RIGHT OR WRONG
THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. THAT UNREASONABLE ARGUMENT CREATING A RIFT THAT IS IMPASSIBLE BY ANY MEANS.
So then any unresolved animosity between these characters can be forced into the light and drama can happen.
>>82598322
Zemo's plan was to make Steve think the Winter Soldier thing was too urgent to sit down and talk it out. If Steve had cooperated peacefully literally none of the problems would have happened.
>>82598369
They were literally shown investigating Bucky and processing him as criminally insane.
>>82598419
If Tony hadn't been such an ass and taken a half a second to listen it wouldn't have happened.
>>82598419
They sent a fucking death squad after him.
>>82598438
Only because Cap forced their hand and got to him first.
>>82598400
this
>the mess in Nigeria
>the mess trying to save Bucky
>the mess in the airport
>the mess in the prison at the end
Literally everyone is going "Cap don't make things worse" and he's all "I'LL SHOW YOU WORSE"
Maybe I'd care a little if Bucky was at all likable and worth endangering all of those people and jeopardizing the Avengers.
You guys do remember that Steve was just about to agree with Tony when Tony mentioned he put Wanda under house arrest.
"God dammit Tony that's my EXACT grievance you played into."
>>82598460
>the mess in Nigeria
If only Cap had let the bad guys attack that building and get away with the biological weapon in the first place literally none of this shit would have gone down.
>>82598454
>They sent a fucking death squad after him.
He was an armed and dangerous killer with known mental problems. It was a totally reasonable call.
>>82598395
How did you watch the movie and not understand they were both right, that's the point.
there needs to be some sort of responsibility.
Mass global politics ISN'T it.
>>82598492
>hey cap
>what
>Bucky
>NOT COOL THAT'S MY TRIGGER WORD
>heh, messing with you sure is a blast
these threads are proof that the russos are the true rusemasters
both sides have their valid points, both sides are flawed. both have their ideological arguments but both were affected by emotion. you aren't supposed to root for one side exclusively.
He doesn't even say it in the movie. Peggy's niece or whoever delivers it in the eulogy
2/10 movie marvels finished
>>82598518
If all the governments in the world working together isn't the proper authorities, who is?
>>82598160
>"NO U MOVE"? That just sounds childish, especially when it's being spoken out loud.
That's actually a quote from a famous writer
I pretty distinctly remember Steve trying to talk first before he did ANYTHING.
The airport fight shouldn't have happened because Tony should've been able to take Steve at his word there and said "Well he gave me 36 hours, so lets press that as hard as we can"
And then still try to beat the shit out of Bucky and Cap because watching anyone kill your mom will fucking send you into a rage tornado.
>Nations of the World all agree that a guy from 1940's Brooklyn who had learning about what the Cold War was on his to-do list last time we saw him probably can't be trusted to know what's best for every nation in the world, so they ask that they be involved in the decision making process before he and his buddies start running in
>"NO TONI, U MUV"
MCU Cap was pretty unreasonable in this
>>82598505
Nigga they were breaching that shit with heavy weapons drawned and they started shooting the moment they breached the room.
>>82598570
Good, because it's a dumb speech.
>>82598588
governments are controlled by people with interests and those interests can get in the way of making the "right" decision.
2 people working together can get more done than 1000
>>82598588
I don't know, probably yo mama.
>>82598603
>I pretty distinctly remember Steve trying to talk first before he did ANYTHING.
"Hey, should we try telling Tony, Natasha, and the rest of them about the conspiracy we just discovered?"
"Nah, they probably won't buy it, so let's not even try to explain it as we steal their airplane."
>>82598588
People who aren't fooled by a scooby-doo mask.
>>82598603
>The airport fight shouldn't have happened because Tony should've been able to take Steve at his word there and said "Well he gave me 36 hours, so lets press that as hard as we can"
This assumes Tony should believe that Cap's judgement is right. Because if Cap is wrong about Zemo using the super soldiers (which he was), then the 36 hours would be used up for nothing and all of the Avengers would have the military ramming their asses.
>>82598671
he literally told tony about the super soldiers and the fake doctor
>>82598671
>so let's not even try to explain it as we steal their airplane."
He specifically did try that.
>>82598603
This. The whole thing could have been avoided if Tony just said "Fine we'll take all 12 of us to your secret compond you claim is in Siberia and see what's up. And if nothing's there you're coming back with us."
Instead he adamantly refuses to believe anything even though 4 other people are backing Cap's story and switches to attack mode.
>Being a vigilante is OK as long as you're really fucking strong
Captain America sure is ignorant of the laws of the country he claims to fight for
>>82598692
The super soldiers thing is a distraction from the fact that he did identify the source of the problem. Going there resolves the issue regardless of the status of some evil communists.
>>82598622
That's the logic behind dictatorships.
Checks and balances intentionally make it harder for anyone to enforce their will.
>>82598588
>If all the governments in the world working together isn't the proper authorities, who is?
117 governments in the MCU is closer to half the world governments. And it's nearly impossible to get a significant number of world governments to agree on ANYTHING other than "I guess we won't do that thing that would make the world better".
All the Sokovia Accord amounted to was a Cease and Desist order.
>>82598692
Does saying "There's a guy trying to do wake up a bunch of fucked up super soldiers" really fall under "judgement"?
>>82598725
I distinctly remember Team Cap (specifically ANTS) throwing the first punch to be fair.
>>82598737
>being a vigilante is OK as long as you're a good person
everything checks out
>>82598745
and if this were reality i would be inclined to agree but this is the MCU where Hydra is running around influencing god knows how many governments, subcommittees, and special interest groups
>>82598756
>All the Sokovia Accord amounted to was a Cease and Desist order.
Hey you never know, they might be allowed to go to conflict zones but just not allowed to fire their weapons.
>>82598769
It's an assumption Cap is making that turns out to be wrong.
>>82598737
That wasn't even...
"I want to help these people but North Korea said no" is what he's against.
Which is, again, a pretty valid thing when you want to help a whole world. He doesn't want the biggest guns for goods to be in the pockets of a bunch of politicians who DON'T have everyone's best interests in mind.
>>82598788
tony made the first "move" by telling spidey to web up cap.
>>82598671
>"Hey, should we try telling Tony, Natasha, and the rest of them about the conspiracy we just discovered?"
That's exactly what he did
>>82598807
The fact still remains they'd be tracking down the guy responsible for all the murders to begin with.
>all these fights are causing too much collateral damage
There was a giant space worm tearing down New York City streets while an army of flying aliens were buzzing around kill civilians.
A city was literally lifted from the ground and was going to drop onto the Earth's surface killing all life on Earth
A guy in a mask was going to steal a biological weapon to sell to god knows who and then set off a suicide bomb that would have killed people regardless of where it was targeted.
The world was lucky that there was a team of super humans there to take care of each of these situations. How the fuck is there supposed to not be collateral damage. How the fuck is would regulating the Avengers stop collateral damage. That scene with the mother pissed me off. Sorry your son died but literally the entire world would have died if that city had crashed into the Earth
The only situation I could understand would be Hulk rampaging in the city but half of that is Tony's fault for fighting the giant monster within a city. Most of everything is Tony's fault and Vision even says it in the movie
>reveals he's Iron Man because of his massive ego
>draws super heroes out of the woodwork
>creates an AI that tries to destroy the world
>tries to lump everyone in to share the responsibilities for shit that was his fault
>Cap tells him to fuck off
>Y-YOU JUST STARTED A WAR PAL
>MUH DEAD PARENTS
>MUH PEPPER
Stop posting Tony and go to bed
>>82598800
>but this is the MCU where Hydra is running around influencing god knows how many governments, subcommittees, and special interest groups
This is Post-Winter Soldier, where their organization got exposed to the world. Zemo found a Hydra agent hiding in some safehouse shitting his pants every time he heard a car backfire.
>>82598807
And it doesn't matter because it's the same villain regardless of what he's doing in his bunker.
>>82598807
Oh please the only difference was that the super soldiers were dead and no one saw that coming. That's a bullshit statement.
I want to fug May
>>82598800
>and if this were reality i would be inclined to agree but this is the MCU where Hydra is running around influencing god knows how many governments, subcommittees, and special interest groups
If you can't trust anyone, then it's better to have decisions made by as wide a group as possible, and to not let anyone have absolute authority.
This includes the Avengers. We only know that they're all 100% trustworthy because we see things from their perspective.
>>82598788
>What essentially amounts to disarming and handcuffing
Or
>Backflip kicking a teenager in the face
>>82598870
That makes all the difference, because it means that they could go back with Tony and deal with things at the UN's pace. There was no reason to resist, because Zemo isn't a threat unless the Avengers fight each other.
>>82598830
All Tony was doing was trying to neutralize the criminal. If Steve had just said "you got me man" and peacefully discussed shit something different may have happened. Instead he got himself free, triggering the battle
There are many different first moves team Iron Man could have done if they actually wanted to fight when they got there
>>82598882
but we do see everything from their perspective and they are all 100% trustworthy.
if we're working with privileged knowledge then why not use it. the avengers are infallible so just let them operate.
>>82598856
>he doesn't remember Tony literally saying word for word "lets get you out of the city"
The invasion wasn't Tony's fault for happening in NYC it was Loki's ego. Ultron was definitely his fault, but he admitted it. I'm not saying his position is perfect but at least he can admit he's flawed in some ways aside from Steve "Perfect Judgment" Rogers
>>82598588
Someone who DIDN'T try to nuke New York City in Avengers 1, preferably.
>>82598856
>A city was literally lifted from the ground and was going to drop onto the Earth's surface killing all life on Earth
Literally 100% caused by two Avengers. So was the mess in South Africa.
>>82598864
And some other HYDRA cell was going to buy the blueprints for the Yellowjacket, and walked off with Cross' particle.
Zemo infiltrated the secure counter terrorist offices and triggered Bucky under the noses of all the people pushing the Accords.
In an ideal world, yes, acountability to the UN would be the answer.
This is the fucking MCU, where a new bad guy or evil organization is being created every week.
>>82598958
That was the World Security Council, which is gone now. Those 5 jackoffs were the most corrupt of all of them, and they're out, as is SHIELD.
>>82598926
Because that's asking the world to treat them like they know that.
If the Avengers get to be an exception to the law because they "do the right thing", what's stopping other vigilantes from claiming the same thing?
>>82598916
Dude got his hands on and deployed a huge electromagnetic pinch device, and also blew up a UN meeting killing A FUCKING KING. Tell me how he's not a threat when he's a one man terrorism machine.
>>82598976
That plays right into Vision's point though. He stated outright that the unlimited power the Avengers have draws competition, like HYDRA, like Cross, like Zemo. You're literally proving Vision's point.
>>82598800
>>being a vigilante is OK as long as you're a good person
>Thousands of retards who think they're "Good People" begin running around and enforcing their own brand of the law because the Avengers are doing it
>>82598828
Cap is trying to operate within the borders of a country while simultaneously ignoring its laws.
>>82598975
You mean 3 avengers? You can't possibly separate SW from responsibility here.
>>82598856
this. Tony should've been the one in prison. I'm really surpised no one calls him out about Ultron or Iron Man 3 events.
Especially since the comic avengers give Pym so much shit for Ultron he has a mental breakdown
>>82598989
just double checking here, but are the shadowy figures (great job whedon) the same council in winter soldier?
those guys seemed alright
>>82599030
SW and Tony were the ones I was referring to.
SW and Hulk for the second scenario.
>>82598989
You sure? I don't remember them getting their comeuppance. It's been a long time and I could've forgotten, though.
>>82598916
Wasn't he? I need to rewatch, but I'm pretty sure that he killed all of the super soldiers. They weren't shot when we first saw them in their pods.
>>82599036
>I'm really surprised no one calls him out about Ultron
He calls himself out for it and owns up to being a goddamn moron. Is that not enough?
>is so un-involved with his own company he doesn't even know his company manufactures weapons
>reveals his secret identity because of his ego
>puts himself and his girlfriend in mortal danger by revealing his address to a terrorist
>fights a giant green monster in the middle of a populated city and makes no attempt to lure him out of it
>creates an AI that tries to destroy all human life
>neglects Pepper so badly she leaves him
>tries to make his whole team share responsibility for stuff that was his fault
>brings a 16 year old kid to a warzone of super humans
>causes his best friend to be crippled
>destroys his own team by being a government stooge
Is it even possible to fuck up more than Tony has?
>>82599036
>I'm really surpised no one calls him out about Ultron
There's an entire scene dedicated to muh dead son, and it's the villain's whole motivation.
>>82599026
Laws that are barely adjusting to the fact there's aliens and mad science fucking shit up, mind you.
>>82599025
HYDRA predates the Avengers.
So do the otherwordly threats the MCU faces.
Chitauri, Frost Giants, those extists and can come at any moment if they please (Frost Giants battled on Earth in the past for gods sake).
>>82599026
>>Thousands of retards who think they're "Good People" begin running around and enforcing their own brand of the law because the Avengers are doing it
Are you dissing Batman?
>>82599051
But in either situation all 3 are responsible. Bruce helps Tony with Ultron and Tony fights Bruce in the city. Both of which are results of SW. All 3 are responsible in both situations
>>82599056
Rhodey very specifically says in the movie that the UN guys they're be working under are NOT the World Security Council.
>>82599091
Pretty much literally how you get new superheroes anywhere nowadays.
>>82598807
Cap was only partially wrong. He was correct that Bucky was framed and Zemo did it and was heading to the site. He was just wrong that Zemo's endgame was using the soldiers.
>>82599092
I guess. Which just supports my point even more.
The Avengers are not infallible and their decisions should not always be trusted.
>>82598916
You can't be serious. The dude bombed a UN meeting, killed a king, deployed a EMP, triggered Bucky.
One man, all by himself.
The Accords couldn't and wouldn't do shit to stop him.
So what if he never inteded to wake up the Winter Soldiers?
The dude was a serious threat, and the only people doing ANYTHING to stop him was the people on Cap's side.
why did zemo kill the 5 sleeping winter soldiers?
>putting a team of super heroes under a system of bureaucratic red tape
Giant lizard destroying the city? Hold on guys we have to get approval first
>>82599153
He hated Superhumans.
>>82599065
No. He tries to fault the whole team like they are out of control when he's the only person OUT OF CONTROL.
No one made Bruce and Tony build a super robot with the capability to commit mass destruction. And no one made Tony taunt some terrorists.
Every other event was collateral damage, Tony's destruction was caused by pure arrogance.
>>82599038
Same council, not the same people.
>>82598449
>If Tony hadn't been such an ass and taken a half a second to listen it wouldn't have happened.
You can't listen to someone who isn't talking to you. Steve's problem is that he only trusts one person and that dude's a brainwashed super assassin.
>people forgetting the UN's response to the Rwandan Genocide
This is not the group that should be protecting us from Thanos
>>82599153
He didn't like superpeople. His plan wasn't to use them, but to use them to create false urgency/tension.
>>82599073
I meant the avengers telling Tony to shut up. Not the villain
>>82599183
thats it? why didnt he try and use them the same way he used winter soldier? did he think that activating them would unite the avengers (in order to defeat them?)
>>82599185
>No one made Bruce and Tony build a super robot with the capability to commit mass destruction
One of the current Avengers literally did just that. She also intentionally made the Hulk go on a rampage in a populated area,
>>82599153
Because they are HYDRA tools of destruction, and he dislikes HYDRA and the threat those five soldiers represent.
>>82598398
Cap went in because Sharon told him there was a shoot-on-sight order against Bucky so he went to prevent him from being killed. Then lo and behold, after he gets there the UN guys start throwing grenades in the window without even giving them a chance to surrender.
He went to prevent them from killing Bucky. If he didn't Bucky would be dead.
>>82599214
Of course it would have that effect.
Also, the last guys who tried to "use them" ended up pretty fucked up.
>>82599237
You mean the same avenger that was coerced by Tony's KILLER ROBOT?
>>82599200
THANK YOU!
>>82599193
Sreve did try to talk at the airport tho and Stark didn't listen.
>>82599214
He says exactly why. Paraphrasing:
>Do you really think I wanted more of you?
>An empire attacked from the outside can rebuild. But an empire that tears itself apart can never be rebuilt.
>>82599279
"Hey miss, wanna fuck up some Avengers?" really isn't coercion in the classic sense.
>>82599026
>Cap is trying to operate within the borders of a country while simultaneously ignoring its laws.
Sometimes you HAVE to do that in the world of Marvel to prevent greater problems.
What happens if the beginning of Civil War was instead "Mmm sorry Cap but we don't want to piss off the Wakandan's in the next building by moving in and fighting Rumlow. You can't go in."
Then Crossbones gets away with a biological weapon scott free.
Great fucking job UN.
>>82598885
That teenager specifically fought two against one, a literal super soldier trained to kill and fight hand to hand combat while crushing you with his robot hand. And a fucking secret SHIELD agent who's probably helped kill hundreds of paramilitary forces.
Point is Pete is fine and he obviously shaked it off.
>>82599279
She was coerced to do neither. She was already set to destroy the Avengers before Ultron was ever created.
>>82599306
>And a fucking secret SHIELD agent who's probably helped kill hundreds of paramilitary forces.
Who???
>>82599306
YOU FIGHT A GIANT MAN AND WIN, YOU SHOULD FEEL PRETTY INVINCIBLE
>>82598615
They threw grenades into the window first.
Reminder that Captain America only disobeyed orders in this movie when lives were on the line. First he went to help Bucky against orders because he was going to be killed. Then the only reason the airport fight happened was because he found out about the other Winter Soldiers and was going to stop them and Stark wouldn't let him explain himself.
>>82599305
>It's for the greater good
>>82599295
>>82599322
touche, but back to the matter at hand, Tony and wanda should be the only ones detained. Cap may have infiltrated Wakanda but he did still stop the biological weapon from being stolen.
>>82599329
He thinks Falcon was unknowingly working for SHIELD I guess.
>>82598828
But from north korean opint of view it is right to have measure to stop superhero intevention.
There is almost the same situation in Agents of SHIELD first season.
There was episode where agents sent to south osetia to capture counter-missile weapon, made by separatists.
Noble goal indeed.
They succeed and captured it. And unwittingly gave it in the hands of Hydra.
>>82599392
The entire conflict would have been resolved if Cap didnt get all pissy over Wanda being under house arrest. Tony was right, she wasnt a US citizen who was very unpopular at best and a war criminal WHO CAUSED ULTRON at worst.
But noooo shes just a kid.
>>82599386
Safeguard laws exist so that you don't have to wait until someone accidentally destroys a city and the people are already dead to deal with it. You try to prevent that disaster from happening in the first place.
People aren't allowed to drive tanks around downtown UNTIL they kill somebody.
>>82599378
You can toss "The greater good can cause problems too." around and you wouldn't even be wrong, but "Well we MIGHT cause some damage so we'd better just do nothing and hope it works out" will cause worse problems.
The world sucks (in Marvel even more so) and bad things happen. You can't change that, and even trying to stop the bad things ends with not everyone saved. But at the end of the day evil won't go away.
you people don't get it. This movie is about the consequences of their actions. It doesn't matter that most of them aren't their fault, they did things and things are happening because if it. Tony owned up to his mistakes and faced them which is why hes more sympathetic than cap. Steve is just running away from what he did. he was right about bucky being framed but he still kept the truth from tony about his parents, and wanted to shield Wanda from the damage that she did, rather than face the consequences and deal with them.
>>82599453
>WHO CAUSED ULTRON
That was Tony tho
>>82599501
>Tony owned up to his mistakes and faced them which is why hes more sympathetic than cap
He pretty much spread the responsibility of Ultron onto everybody just because the guilt was eating him. Tony is a dick.
>>82599501
>It doesn't matter that most of them aren't their fault,
What the goddamn fuck
>>82599501
But what are Steve's mistakes? That in the course of stopping Crossbones from stealing a biological weapon to use on people Wanda wasn't quite powerful enough to stop his explosion from killing a few people?
That's tragic, but what the hell else could they do? Let him get away?
>>82599501
Let's not forget the part of Hulk and Thor just fucking off and about nukes missing. Those two could end society if they felt like it and they are just off doing....?
>>82599501
Some would argue, in fact the movie presents this exact argument, that the pursuit of what is fair, just, and right should ignore the threat of personal consequences.
I.E. It doesn't matter what happens to me, if I can do right by the many. Cap saw a downward spiral and pushed against it, making himself enemy and target.
The real solution is to have a Liason with the Avengers that the UN is willing to trust to report the methods and decision-making process the Avengers use, and to advise them when they are line-crossing what the world governments would accept.
Thus, they can respond quickly to emergencies and threats, but still have oversight. This person doesn't even have to have super-abilities or gadgets, tho an LMD would do fine.
>>82599523
Who was brain fucked by Wanda.
>>82599523
It's as much Wanda's fault as Tony's. Both were accidents, but her motive was spite. And Wanda is more responsible for Hulk's rampage in South Africa than anyone.
>>82599556
If someone uses a grenade against you and you toss it away to save yourself and someone else dies as a result, it's your fault. Not the guy who, you know, used the grenade.
>>82599564
Thor is a citizen of an alien civilization who happens to help out when we need him, have fun telling him he can or can't.
And I don't for one second think "Thunderbolt" Ross should be talking to ANYONE about losing track of Bruce Banner.
>>82599501
What mistakes did Capt make?
How are you going to see on Wanda for what she did?
>Gee Wanda you did the best you could to stop Capt and everyone on the ground from dying, but your best wasn't good enough, time to get punished for it
>>82599564
yeah, like UN law would hold those people. Thor wouldn't give a fuck, and the hulk can't die.
Not to mention detaining them for no crime other than just being powerful is a horrible idea and pretty unjust to them.
>>82599586
The comics did that for a little while... I think that's what Henry Gyrich was, wasn't he?
>>82599056
They where gone after the events of Winter Soldier
>>82599564
It's almost like both of them are living things with thoughts and feelings, they have a right to privacy.
Comparing them to literal weapons is retarded.
>>82599605
Sure but that doesn't change the fact that ids gonna scare the daylights out of governments and all the Avengers can do is shrug?
>>82599564
The Hulk running off is a problem that existed for years before the Avengers, and really isn't an Avenger problem.
Thor has been rampaging around the Universe for centuries before the Avengers formed. It's really kinda hard to track a teleporting immortal with God-powers. What would the UN possibly do in his case?
>>82599160
>Giant lizard destroying the city? Hold on guys we have to get approval first
Yeah, meanwhile Cap was only able to beat dozens of their troops to Bucky by minutes. This isn't our UN we're talking about. These guys get shit done.
>>82599593
tony was already having ptsd from the alien invasion, wanda just made him see the fear again and then it wore off.
>>82599549
Just because they were reacting to bad guys, doesn't mean that they can escape the consequences of their actions. That's life
>>82599556
>Steve is just running away from what he did. he was right about bucky being framed but he still kept the truth from tony about his parents, and wanted to shield Wanda from the damage that she did
>>82599564
>and about nukes missing
This is the most full-of-shit line in the entire movie. Losing the Hulk is the same as losing a nuke, and Ross would be held accountable if he lost a nuke?
Did no one remember that the hulk WAS Ross's nuke and he lost him? Without even bringing analogies into this, how can Ross talk shit about losing the Hulk when losing the Hulk was his ENTIRE CHARACTER before this movie?
And why are the other Avengers responsible for what the Hulk does? They don't own him and they aren't in charge of him. This goes double for Thor.
>>82599646
and even under the SA, all they can do is shrug. Or do you just not get that?
They have no control over thor or hulk, under the law or not.
>>82599639
How many blocks has hulk leveled?
>>82599654
Not the point, the point is that shit is scary and the Avengers just going "oh well" is bad pr.
>>82599626
That's exactly what he is.
Unfortunetly, he not only hates all superheroes as a whole (when every twit who thinks he's clever goes "Why are mutants a problem when The Avengers exist?", he hates them just as much as he hates mutants), but he's also, on more than one occasion, almost crossed the line to legit supervillain.
>>82599698
>How many blocks has hulk leveled?
How many lives has Hulk saved?
>>82599676
>doesn't mean that they can escape the consequences of their actions. That's life
>Hurr You saved people but not EVERYONE
>YOU MONSTER
you're retarded and so are the people in the MCU. If a firefighter can't get to your mom in time should he go to jail? Are you that fucking stupid?
>>82599596
>>82599593
She showed everyone visions m8 if that counts as brainfuck then the Avengers all would have been brainfucked
>>82599610
If you kill people accidentally, the healthiest way to deal with it is face the problem, not pretend it didn't happen
BvS Lex Luther >>>> Civil War Zemo
at least Jesse had a personality, Zemo was bland AF
>>82599691
I'm pretty sure he just wants control over the avengers, and this was his excuse to do it.
>>82599676
Actually international law allows you to get away with almost anything causing collateral damage if it's reasonable in scope. Why do you think Israel has been hiding behind Hamas's practice of putting targets in civilian areas for so long?
The only real issue here is that countries don't like extranational forces doing shit without their permission.
>>82599691
>>82599696
Not saying they can control them but the part Cap says about "Agendas" is bunk. The MCU world has flipped on its head the past decade and people are rightly scared. As Widow said, at least have one hand on the wheel and steer trust back.
>>82599737
They were all brainfucked.
>>82599038
>>82599186
A couple of them were the same. One of the WSC guys from the Avengers that launched the nuke is outed as a member of Hydra on Agents of SHIT...if you care about that sort of thing. Jenny Agutter's character should still be alive too.
>>82599739
At what point did she pretend it didn't happen?
She felt bad about it and felt regret, but she didn't do anything wrong. She didn't do something selfish or make a bad judgement call, she did the best she could in a shit situation.
I wanna talk about the Ultron thing for a minute so bear with me.
Tony and Bruce sought to create an A.I. control system for a global defense mechanism that didn't exist yet. That's it, a smarter version of Jarvis to control automated defense system.
They let simulations of it run while they rested from busting their heads open for 3 days and when it was unattended it successfully created a sapient digital being.
This new life form grabbed up information as fast as it could to assert and identity and purpose and it's first choices when it came time to do anything was to kill everyone in front of his goal.
NOW.
This is a being of free will almost as of it's moment of creation and it starts of as a sociopath with unimaginable control over itself so as to move through systems it just encounters with relative ease. It didn't wait, stop, think about consequences, it was a sociopath with a goal.
NOW.
Does blame for this being's actions fall on the people who dabbled in creating something and having their idea go further than they'd ever imagined?
Because the second it went out of control the Avengers mobilized to solve the problem.
Some would argue they shouldn't have been trying to do what they did in the first place.
Others would say, that's the cost of scientific progress, an occasional fuck up.
What do you say? Sins of the son visited upon the father, or not?
>>82599731
no, but the firefighter isnt a super hero. the movie is about unavoidable consequences, Tony deals with, Steve wants to pretend it never happened
>sorry Tony, I didnt want to tell you about what bucky did, it was me being selfish
>turn that off, Wanda shouldnt have to deal with what is the natural consequence of being a hero, that people sometimes die
>>82599739
>kill people accidentally
all those people in the plaza were going to die if wanda did nothing. She may have failed but it's not something you really try to PR away.
They did their job and everyone's not going to get saved 100% of the time. If you don't arrest cops and firefighters for things like that, you damn well shouldn't harass the avengers.
>>82599813
thats not my fucking point. it happened, its not her fault but it happened and things are happening because of it. you can face it or run away, guess which one is better
>>82599778
>Not saying they can control them but the part Cap says about "Agendas" is bunk.
No it isn't. All it takes is for some country alliance to deny the avengers to save people and their hands are legally tied. Cap doesn't want that.
>>82599793
Cap clearly wasn't. Thor was confused but clearly not brainfucked. Widow just got mopey but she was fine.
Stark just a bitch is all
>>82599808
I'd say Tony, Wanda and Bruce are responsible for varying degrees of negligence, but obviously they shouldn't be treated as if they committed Ultron's crimes directly.
So, Spiderman had webs because he was smart and he made them, but it seemed like he had other powers too, and it seemed like he had them even before Tony made him a better suit. So my question, where did he get those powers? Why did he have them. The movie never explains it. PLOT HOLE.
>>82599813
No one was going to arrest Wanda, they kept her there to avoid conflict with say...Paparazzi or Mobs.
Having her suit up again would have done what?
>>82599864
It most definitely shook them up for a while. They're clearly disturbed by it well after they get to Clint's farm.
>>82599876
I might have forgotten something in the movie, but do they ever explain how Tony figured out that Peter Parker was Spiderman?
And what was his justification for bringing some teenager to go fight in a deathmatch with other supermen?
>>82599864
Tony had PTSD from New York and the events of 3. Dude was not smiles and sunshine by Ultron
>>82599808
Stark was in too much of a rush to create Ultron and wasn't careful enough.
Also how hard is it to store an unknown AI on a computer that isn't plugged into the internet? Do that and Ultron would have nowhere to go.
>>82599921
He can catch SUVs and has produced an incredible non-violent tool to disable his opponents.
>>82598400
they put bucky on ice and began working on fixing his brain and caught the real bomber, when the alternative was him being killed on sight with no questions asked
>>82599928
Probably had a drone follow spidey home . Also the fight was not a deathmatch nearly eveyone was pulling punches.
>>82599876
Everyone in the world knows he was bit by a spider, no need to spell it out
>>82599939
I don't think that's a valid excuse to bring an underage kid halfway around the world to fight literal terrorists without even parental consent
>>82599811
>no, but the firefighter isnt a super hero
You're a fucking retard.
>sorry Tony, I didnt want to tell you about what bucky did, it was me being selfish
That's true. But not really relevant to what we're discussing. We're discussing how somehow the avengers are held responsible for casualties they could not have prevented.
>turn that off, Wanda shouldnt have to deal with what is the natural consequence of being a hero, that people sometimes die
Yeah man. Let's replay every death of a person you couldn't save, it's not like it's not already burned into the back of your mind or anything.
That's why cap wanted the video turned off, they got the point, people died. It's still not their fault, you can't save everyone. and being a "superhero" doesn't put them in some special standard.
>>82599855
how'd she run away exactly? You want her to have a press conference over which area was better to throw a bomb person? Say she's sorry?
Please. By all means, tell me what's the best way to PR casualties of a bomb blast? Tony didn't even PR ultron, why should Wanda?
>>82598477
Yeah because she was dangerous and then she threw Vision throught like 20 stories, probably hurting people.
>>82599928
It looked to me like Ultron's first actions were all directly infiltrating every system near him.
if you're using your biggest computer to make something big in a hurry... It's probably not air-gapped from the other systems in your lab.
But I'd MUCH rather blame it on Whedon not knowing anything about computer science.
>>82598160
You areabsolutely right anon
>>82598160
>Guys, beauracracy will prevent us from going where we need to be when we need to be there, and last time we listened to people they turned out to be literally hitler.
>Guys, some dude is gonna get his hands on 5 super soldiers who can literally fuck everything over, we need to stop them.
>Guys, seriously, the whole world is in danger, just listen and let us go stop him.
>Tony, bucky was literally mind controller for decades. You are smart enough to know this.
>Tony
>Tony stahp
>>82598477
Honestly I think she's strong enough to break out of that prison herself.
>>82599973
Of course you don't. But that ain't what you asked. What's TONY'S justification.
Peter's got a good heart, a great skillset and fucking amazing superpowers. So bring him to make up for the fact you're fighting the toughest guy you know.
>>82599973
>without even parental consent
>parental consent
>Spiderman
>parental consent
>>82599995
A lot of that was just ground, actually.
>>82600009
>if you're using your biggest computer to make something big in a hurry... It's probably not air-gapped from the other systems in your lab.
If you're worling on AI that could potentially be hostile (and let's be real, no one knows for sure if superintelligent AI would be) why take that risk?
>>82600042
You know exactly what I meant
>>82600038
That's pretty hypocritical of him, considering he's fighting on the side of law, regulation, and accountaibility
>>82600033
>Guys, beauracracy will prevent us from going where we need to be when we need to be there, and last time we listened to people they turned out to be literally hitler.
You mean Cap wants the Avengers to have the right to ignore all normal laws in the name of saving lives? To become exactly what he fought against in TWS?
>>82598539
The Russos did a better job than the writers at Marvel did during the print version of Marvel Civil War To be fair, they did have the print-run train-wreck as a cautionary example.
>>82600056
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-experimentation_in_medicine
BECAUSE RISK IS ALWAYS A PART OF SCIENCE!
>>82600077
> To become exactly what he fought against in TWS?
Uh, those guys had the goal of killing over 20 million people and their stated purpose was to rule over humanity with an iron fist
so, no. Quite the opposite really
>Government blamed the avengers for the alien invasion damaging new york when they wanted to nuke it
Bullshit
>Government chastises the avengers for stopping the shield/hydra helicarriers
Bullshit and whoever pushed this clearly works for hydra.
>Government blames the avengers for ultron
Totally fair, but, this is really on Tony.
>>82600077
Nah man we should totally be allowed to chill in the USA and do what we want and let other people clean up after us!
At least the JLA operated in outer fuvking orbit
>>82600077
That's literally what they were doing before and they came out ahead every time except the one time tony made a killer AI like an idiot.
Also, the group they fought against in TWS wanted mass decimation of the population and world domination, so, no that's not quite the same thing.
>>82600042
A teenager endangering his own life without telling his aunt is one thing, a grown adult endangering the life of said teenager without telling his aunt (especially while he's advocating more secure superhero supervision) is another.
>>82600126
It wasn't "blame you for these events" it's nations want accountability for the collateral damage.
>>82599986
>how'd she run away exactly
shes not doing the running, cap just seems to think that because its not her fault, she, or anyone, doesn't have to deal with the fallout
Tony is working on solutions. he made the biggest fuck up making Ultron, he realises that he isnt infallible. What does cap do? look for a conspiracy.
>But not really relevant to what we're discussing. We're discussing how somehow the avengers are held responsible for casualties they could not have prevented.
bucky couldn't have prevented Tony's parents murders, but Steve should have told Tony in the months of time they have had to deal with it rationally, rather then put it off until someone uses against them.
>>82600077
With shield that was literally spying on people and eliminating potential threats without the right of trial.
All Steve wants to do is be able to go any where and help anyone without any policies getting in the way.
>"I admire you, Captain. All these disgusting, small-minded beurocrats, busy squabbling with each other like rats over scraps...They don't see things like you or I. They can't see what needs to be done. They must learn to accept our greater judgement, and let us mold them into a brighter, greater future!"
>Govoernment blames them for the wakandan delegates dying
>Ignores that they stopped guys from stealing a major biological weapon
>Ignores that the deaths were caused by a dude using a crazy hi tech suicide vest and that it was either in the air or in the bazaar where way more people would die.
Yeah, fuck that.
>>82600178
Which stamps on the rights of sovereign governments.
>>82598297
>so that Cap would appear to be right
Millar wrote the comic with the intention of Tony being portrayed as right.
>>82600172
They directly presented every event and all damage accrued as being their responsibility. Multiple times.
Hell, nobody even examined why the shit in africa happened. They just pointed fingers at the avengers.
>>82598398
>apparently saves the day also gets a lot of innocent people flattened by buildings.
this happens in the real world as well the only difference is that because cops/military/etc are part of the system, they can somehow just write it off as "they did all they could".
Or was SHIELD/World Security Council wanting to glass NY during the first invasion a more acceptable alternative for you because it was under the authority of politicians?
This was just a play at getting the most powerful force for good under the control of politicians.
It's a long shot, but if anything, the right call would have been to have the Avengers declare themselves a sovereign nation and apply for membership in the UN. That way, they can act autonomously and deal with the political aftermath afterwards, just like every other nation that just decides to start a war and gets a slap on the wrist these days
>>82600158
>That's literally what they were doing before and they came out ahead every time except the one time tony made a killer AI like an idiot.
"Whoops. Sure, we destroyed an entire country, but it's just this one time. We swear."
ALSO was it just me, or was the whole Hydra Hellicarrier Hootenanny a really contained looking event?
Yeah they exploded a lot and crashed into each other and the triskelion... But from what I saw they barely got a mile away from the giant super secret underwater hanger. It LOOKED pretty contained for the most part.
So who's the fuckwits standing close enough to see the giant fucking battleships blowing each other up and not running the hell away?
Civilians in the Triskelion? Probably shot by Hydra Goons anyway... So... What's the deal here?
>>82600175
>look for a conspiracy.
To be fair, there was a conspiracy. Steve was right and Tony was just being played and causing more problems, again.
>>82600209
then editorial interfered because that's not what he ended up writing
>>82600226
>Tony's killer ai wrecks a city
>This is equivalent to the avengers actively and purposely trying to take over the world and kill millions of people
You aren't good at this.
>>82599973
>imposing real world logic on a world full of literal magic and metahumans and aliens
Listen, the rules governing the treatment of minors are going to be a little different when the minors in question are Spiderman and various X-Men and shit. Taking Spiderman into a superhero fight where everyone is fighting intentionally non-lethally in their world is basically like asking your 16 year old to watch the house for a weekend in our world.
>>82600232
Steve was being played just as much. Zemo never intended to use the super soldiers, and gave Cap a false sense of urgency so that he wouldn't take things through the slow UN path.
>>82600175
>What does cap do? look for a conspiracy
No he didn't. The first time he disobeys orders is to save Bucky from the hit squad. The second time he did so was when he found out about the other Winter Soldiers and Tony's crew didn't believe him/wouldn't let him go stop them.
>what if they send us somewhere we shouldn't go?
Just like they sent a hit squad to kill Bucky
>what if we need to go somewhere and they won't let us
Zemo and the other winter soldiers.
Both of Cap's worst case scenarios come true within the first week of the Accords. He was right to do whatbhe did.
>>82598160
IS this the first fucking movie where the hero it's named after is actually it's antagonist?
>>82600209
By sending out Super Secret Supervillain Search and Squash Squads?
Or the Super-Dimension Prison Alpha Sigma Tango?
Or maybe the Thor-Borg?
Because I was waiting to see him take off the helmet and OH SHIT IT'S A SKRULL/DOCTOR DOOM!
>>82600256
I'm saying the Avengers aren't infallible - They have made city-destroying mistakes, and giving them supreme authority to make any judgement call they deem necessary is fucking insane.
>>82600175
>shes not doing the running, cap just seems to think that because its not her fault, she, or anyone, doesn't have to deal with the fallout
What the fuck are you talking about? All he did was ask for the video to be shut off. She knows what happened, there's no reason to constantly drive home something that already CLEARLY GOT TO HER.
Imagine in a firefighter briefing:
>HEY JEFF, REMEMBER THAT KID WHO BURNED TO DEATH YESTERDAY YOU COULDN'T GET TO?
>HERE'S A CLIP, JUST IN CASE HIS SCREAMS WEREN'T BURNED IN YOUR MEMORY
>Tony is working on solutions
I missed the part where he dealt with the direct fallout of Ultron.
>What does cap do? look for a conspiracy.
You're fucking retarded.
>bucky couldn't have prevented Tony's parents murders, but Steve should have told Tony in the months of time they have had to deal with it rationally
There's no way to deal with that information rationally, are you an autist? There's no right way to tell someone they killed YOUR PARENTS
>>82598419
this is not true at all, because ross who was in charge of keeping the avengers in check is actually a huge piece of shit who hates supers not in his complete control.
if you paid attention to hulk or paid attention to the subtle details that he was ready to imprison them and didn't really mind killing them off.
so no giving up would actually just fuck them further. if it wasn't for cap's rebellion they would have all been dead or in prison.
>>82600232
What? Steve danced to Zemos tune 100 percent.
>>82600265
>Steve was being played just as much.
Everybody got played, but steve didn't fall in to this to nearly the degree tony did. Tony literally couldn't even be bothered to listen to anything anybody said about him possibly being wrong until a literal corpse showed up.
>>82600295
... They don't stop being human beings with personal values and ideas because someone's in charge of them.
>>82600243
No, that's what he ended up writing. Just from Millar's perspective.
>>82600295
You didn't say they aren't infallible, you said they are literally doing what the people they fought against in winter soldier did. This is a vastly different set of arguments.
Also, the guy who made a city destroying mistake, who did it unilaterally, left the team.
>>82600340
>>82600306
>Ross who was in charge of keeping the avengers in check
He's not. It's a panel of over 100 UN delegates.
>>82600352
>>82600279
Mark Millar's definition of heroism was pretty warped up until relatively recently.
>>82600370
>>82600326
Yes, but they are blocked from making potentially disastrous mistakes.
>>82600349
It's the same in that Steve is going full fascist, trampling over any laws he thinks he should in the name of protecting people.
>>82600387
Vigilante action does not equal fascism.
>>82600387
That's... Well you can't ACTUALLY block people from making mistakes... Without shock collars of some kind.
>>82598160
Cap was right.
>Implying the UN could actaully keep Superheroes under control, if said supers went "nah fuck this"
The fact is that you are turning people into unaccountable weapons. If there was actaul evidence of the Avengers being reckless on purpse - then maybe.
But no.
>>82599654
throw soldiers at him causing mass destruction of their own.
pretty much the accords where retarded. because 1. they slow the mobilization and investigation of super crime to a crawl by vote of committee at best at worst thunderbolt ross hit squad .
2. their resolution to punishing them is to try to kill them by causing more damage than avengers do and risking more lives than the avengers.
it's hilarious when people take tony's side and swear that the military would do a better less destructive job than the avengers at solving shit. also saying they could just nuke thanos and win. i hope i'm being trolled by these anons.
>>82600379
Page is meant to mirror this one.
>>82600387
the only law steve is breaking is stepping over imaginary lines created by assholes
>>82600401
Leading your own private global superpower with no limitation on authority is.
>>82600387
You understand that you are making this argument when the actual last group of people who tried to control this stuff turned out to be supervillains, right?
And government oversight doesn't prevent anyone from making mistakes, they even talked about that in the movie, how it just politicizes their actions and can lead to inaction at the wrong time.
>>82600387
That's not what fascism is. Fascism would be the guys making unjust laws.
And trampling unjust laws is the duty of every good American. It's what Edward Snowden did, it's what Harriet Tubman did, and it's what the nation's founders did.
>>82600435
Instigating fights with terrorists without any legal authority is also super illegal.
>>82600448
You don't really understand what fascism is.
Is superman a fascist to you?
Your definition of fascism covers pretty much every super hero or team, though they govern and force their will on no one.
>>82600466
that's what Tony did, not Steve. Steve prevented a robbery
>>82600319
Everyone danced to Zemo's tune because what he wanted was so crazy nobody could consider it.
Steve danced less though because he at least noticed something was wrong, while Tony and Ross were oblivious until Zemo deliberately left evidence. And even then Ross wanted to ignore it.
>>82600466
>Instigating fights with terrorists
Hydra kinda started it, like, all the time.
>>82600387
>>82600448
>muh fascism
No you moron
>>82600191
This anon gets it.
>>82600451
TWS happened because SHIELD had way too much power. Giving the Avengers total authority would be repeating the same mistake.
The Accords are about limiting power. If the Avengers don't like an order the UN gives them, they're free to walk away.
>>82600510
But what happens when there's a threat the UN doesn't want to deal with because it's poltically inconvineint and the Avengers can't act because of the UN?
Then nothing gets done and the bad guys are unopposed.
And it happens in this very film because Zemo subverts the UN at every turn and they're completely oblvious to him and refuse to believe Cap and Tony's own evidence.
>>82600470
If Superman started ignoring international law to enforce what he deemed justice, like he does in many AUs, he would be fascist. Superman works together with global governments. He doesn't tell them to STFU.
>>82600498
In the opening of AoU it was definitely the Avengers who were invading.
>>82600207
yeah well honestly fuck them. they lack the power and knowledge to fix the things the avengers fix.
they're not dealing with normal warfare or small drug dealers, they're dealing with very specific world ending situations and eradicating a terrorist organization with no actual nation of loyalty.
>>82600510
>TWS happened because SHIELD had way too much power.
No, it happened because they were using their power to spy on everyone on earth and kill anyone their algorithm said would present a problem to the new world order.
>The Accords are about limiting power.
Wrong again; the Accords just shift power into the hands of men like Ross.
>>82600379
>two exclamation points!!
>two question marks??
Is this writer a high-school girl?
>>82600549
That's the downside of checks and balances. The alternative is trusting someone to have supreme authority and be infallible, which is a very dangerous idea.
>>82600569
The dialog didn't tip you off genius?
daily reminder that when scarlet witch made all the avengers see there worst nightmare in AoU, Tony seeing the world invaded etc, remember what Cap saw? Everybody dancing and celebrating, and Peggy saying "It's over Steve, the wars over."
Cap can't help but fight, he thrives off it, which is a good thing and a bad thing
>>82600568
The same Ross who, let's not forget, endorsed the creation of Abomination. The last time he was involved in policing superhumans, Harlem was almost leveled.
best case scenario "there was a bunch of collateral damage and casualties like always, but our consciences are clear because it was the UN's fault for sending us there"
worst case "The UN wouldn't let us go to help and a bunch of people died"
super worst case "The UN is secretly Hydra and made us destroy America"
