So let me get this straight:
Stark wants The Avengers to follow the Sokovia Accords, which allows countries to dictate the actions of The Avengers.
But if those 117 countries that signed the Accords included North Korea, Eritrea and other countries with horrible human rights records,
That pretty much means that The Avengers are doing work approved by Third World dictatorships.
That's kind of scary.
This means that if North Korea has its own supervillain threatening the country, The Avengers (an American-based team) has to respond to that in accordance with the accords, which means that The Avengers are helping to ensure the existence of a dictatorship for the next few decades.
I don't want superheroes doing dirty work for dictatorships. The reason why The Sokovia Accords happened was because it allows countries to force superheroes to do dirty work for them.
Last month, The UN held a meeting about the problems with the War on Drugs and while countries like the USA, Mexico, Canada and Colombia said that the current laws do not work, in the end the UN still pushes for the same drug laws because countries like China and Russia managed to veto any discussion on reforming drug laws. Why should we trust China and Russia with superheroes when we can't even trust them in reforming drug laws?
It blows my mind that Tony Stark is willing to allow countries like Saudi Arabia and China to rule over The Avengers. That's the problem. Yes, superheroes can be dangerous on their own, but superheroes whose acts are sanctioned by dictatorships are WORSE.
Is Tony Stark a fucking idiot? He's basically selling Captain America to North Korea with The Sokovia Accords.
>>82576204
Tony let's his emotions and issues control him too much.
It's almost like he enjoys feeling responsible for bad things and feeling guilty
He needs a fucking therapist.
Doc Samson or even Dr.Bong
>>82576204
>>82576239
No two people can be this stupid.
>>82576244
So tell me why countries like Saudi Arabia dictating the actions of The Avengers is a good thing.
It is strange they didn't make more of a point of that. I understand not mentioning China by name to not interfere with the box office and not mentioning North Korea by name because of The Interview, but Cap is still really vague about his actual objections.
>>82576244
Stark's entire superhero career has always been driven by guilt.
Imagine if he was raised by Jewish relatives
>>82576204
Looking at Stark's HUD just reminds me of a question; is JARVIS ever coming back or are we going to be listening to FRIDAY from now on?
>>82576204
>>82576259
The movie states that the sanctions had to be a approved by the UN before the Avengers actually engage not one single country you fucking idiot. The Avengers can't be biased on who or what they should save in times of crisis so whether they have to dispatched on North Korea doesn't change the fact that they're an entirely neutral party.
>>82576263
Cap doesn't want to be told whether or not its okay to save someone that's why OP is a fucking retard. The argument he makes is that bad shit is going to happen regardless and they should take responsibility not leave it to the government to be their lapdogs as penitence.
>>82576286
"OY VEY CAP THAT'S ANTISEMITIC REMEMBER THE 6 GOYRILLION"
>>82576295
JARVIS is Vision
>>82576259
>>82576204
Because Saudi Arabia wouldn't be able to do so on their own. They would need the support of other countries. And the point wasn't to make it so that any and all problems any nation has, the Avengers get sent in.
Also, just because they are dictatorships, it doesn't mean that every single decision they could possibly make politically is evil. Saddam Hussain did wonders for tackling illiteracy for example.
The point of the Sokovia Accords wasn't to give the UN its own superhuman taskforce, it was to give accountability to an independent, lets face it, military organisation.
The point was so that when this group of superpowered people just ups and decides to intervene in something, like they did in Lagos, that they have permission from an international body so that when your loved ones are killed as a result of their Avenging, you're not just expected to suck it up, deal with it and move on.
It's to stop the Avengers from doing whatever the fuck they want with no consequences when it all goes tits up.Despite this, I'm still pro Cap
Christ you're dumb
>>82576204
We don't know what the Sokovia Accord says exactly. It's a large book with all kinds of info. The only thing that we know is that 117 signed the Accord and that the Avenger ought to be controlled, but we don't know under which condition.
>>82576204
>Stark wants The Avengers to follow the Sokovia Accords, which allows countries to dictate the actions of The Avengers.
>But if those 117 countries that signed the Accords included North Korea, Eritrea and other countries with horrible human rights records,
>That pretty much means that The Avengers are doing work approved by Third World dictatorships.
Are you fucking stupid?
>>82576204
>That pretty much means that The Avengers are doing work approved by Third World dictatorships.
>That's kind of scary.
I don't see how it's scarier than superheroes doing work approved by non-dictatorships. Unless we're talking about a fantasy version of the US that actually cares about democracy and world peace.
>>82576322
Also: the UN is actually the only institution that decides whether or not the Avengers should intervene in crisis....es... or not.
>>82576296
>The movie states that the sanctions had to be a approved by the UN before the Avengers actually engage not one single country you fucking idiot. The Avengers can't be biased on who or what they should save in times of crisis so whether they have to dispatched on North Korea doesn't change the fact that they're an entirely neutral party.
The problem though is that "The UN" is comprised of 200 nations and all have dumb shitty agendas.
Imagine if The Avengers have to find a Hydra cell in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia can just call in a "no vote" and convince every other Sunni nation to call in "no" and then lobby the US congress and the British Parliament to vote "no" in dispatching the Avengers which results in a veto.
That's pretty much what The Sokovia Accords will do. It's a bureaucratic red tape that will the Avengers' work much more useless.
I used to work for UNICEF, and every single call for UN peacekeepers to Darfur gets shot down by the US under the lobbying of Saudi Arabia and other Sunni nations. The Sokovia Accords will be exactly that.
>>82576331
Well, the US does not starve its citizens nor arrests journalists into work camps
>>82576316
>Also, just because they are dictatorships, it doesn't mean that every single decision they could possibly make politically is evil. Saddam Hussain did wonders for tackling illiteracy for example.
But North Korea and Eritrea does not have Saddam.
And besides, there's China. China can VETO the Avengers into doing anything that China wants. That's the fear surrounding the Sokovia Accords.
>>82576204
BEST KOREA doesn't even have a seat on the UN security council you dumb fuck. It never has.
>>82576367
But Best Korea has CHINA as an ally, and a lot of issues with the Nuclear talks came from China supporting North Korea.
If Kim Jong Un wants Black Widow to be his personal sex slave, he can just bribe Xi Jingping to veto that shit in The Security Council. That's how they got DHL to operate in North Korea.
>>82576365
I don't think the MCU does too much real world political shenanigans, they already had enough goofiness with everyone is fucking Hydra. The movies aren't the only things that go on in the universe, they have other-worldly threats on Agents of Shield and stuff so I would guess they would ignore the real life political bickering mostly.
>>82576365
My point was that not every single possible decision made by a dictatorship is inherently evil, just like every decision made by a democracy is inherently good. Way to miss it anon.
>Ultron is going to destroy humanity and turn the world into his playground
>Okay I'll call a meeting of the member states to discuss the Avengers intervening in the Sovokian situation. We should have this resolved and approved in the next two weeks.
>>82576383
>If Kim Jong wants Black Widow to be his personal sex slave
Right, now I know you're a fucking moron.
Also, China aren't as pally pally with NK as you might think. Yes they are allies, and yes China publicly supports them, but that doesn't mean they bend over backwards to help them every time they ask for something.
China doesn't need Best Korea, but Best Korea certainly needs them.
Learn to international politics anon.
>government lets one dude infiltrate their facility and get a damn interview with their most high profile prisoner
>tony says the avengers need to be overseen by these people
>>82576295
No JARVIS is never coming back, he's part of Vision now.
>As you all know the entirety of our world peacekeeping force was recently co-opted by a sinister Nazi organisation in an attempt to set up a fascistic world regime
>That's behind us now and I'll glad, Tony, that you're in agreement with us there is no way any of them could possibly still compromise us or that ever happen again. It's with great pleasure that I put all of the people who stopped that happening directly under the control of a new government organisation
>>82576365
>China can VETO the Avengers into doing anything that China wants
I don't think you understand what "veto" means.
>>82576383
>If Kim Jong Un wants Black Widow to be his personal sex slave, he can just bribe Xi Jingping to veto that shit in The Security Council.
>Whelp Natasha, I know this goes against the universal declaration of human rights, but China have spoken
This is quite possibly the stupidest statement I've read on here in regards to how international political relations work, and I occasionally browse /pol/
Well done.
>>82576413
Dude, i do learn intpol. I WORKED IN ONE!
And no, the NK-China hostility is just smoke and mirror. Behind the scenes, China-NK relationship is still special like US-Israel relationship.
China does not want NK refugees and the USFK near the Yalu River.
>>82576450
>Implying China cares about the universal declaration of human rights
>>82576472
No, but the rest of the UN do you mad fuck.
>>82576452
Then why do you not seem to understand what a veto is?
>Tony, Ross here recently created an uncontrollable metahuman thread in direct opposition to a member of the Avengers. I think you'll understand why he's the right choice to be the Avengers' contact under the Accords.
>>82576492
I've seen vetoes being used for dumb shit by SC members on behalf of other countries.
The UN Security Council is basically as stupid as The US Congress.
>>82576515
Race to the bottom with some of their shit like getting pissy at online bullies, video games, or anmie or whatever that shit was.
I would guess MCU UN aren't the complete mouth-breathers that real life UN is, still occasionally corrupt of course but not fucking Saudi Arabia is head of human rights watch retarded.
>>82576538
>I would guess MCU UN aren't the complete mouth-breathers that real life UN is
That's an assumption I'm not about to make.
>>82576551
Do you want the plots to get even dumber or more convoluted?
>>82576574
No. But I assume they will anyway
>>82576204
I thought it was the UN Security Council who could approve Avenger action, not the whole General Assembly?
This could be solved if the Avengers had become a NATO organization instead of a UN one. This keeps Russia and China from having a say while still making them accountable to oversight.
>>82576204
The whole concept of the Accords was iffy and vaguely described to begin with, and should probably not be taken at face value (for instance, do any of the world governments have any actual leverage on the Avengers to begin with? Aren't the Avengers more like a company now than a government organization? Hell, I don't think Vision even has a nationality...)
Like the technobabble in all Marvel movies, think of it more as a tool to show Tony's growing persecution complex, and try not to look to hard at the whole deal.
>WE NEED TO BE PUT IN CHECK
>but before that let me do several unchecked things
tony is pretty complex
>>82576383
Why the fuck do you keep using the word veto if you're gonna use it wrong?
Tony just wanted a situation where someone else could be blame for his fuckups. That's what the Accords were for
>>82576673
Also Tony was saying they'd iron out the details afterwards too or something.
If an incident occurs that is far worse that the Avengers would clearly have been able to contain better they'd obviously have a lot of leverage in making the UN or whatever control group is assigned to grant them some flexibility, which I imagine is going to be the case before Infinity War, they have 5 movies I think before then or something.
>>82576204
He wants to put power in the hands of people who were going nuke New York
He wants to put power in the hands of people, a bunch of whom are probably Hydra or have links to Hydra
Cap mentions neither of these things.
>>82576750
>He wants to put power in the hands of people who were going nuke New York
that one really bothered me
like what the hell tony
>>82576263
>>82576296
The way he says that "agendas change" makes me think he was referring to wishy-washy Western powers anyway. Besides, it's places like America that are provably prone to Hydra infiltration, not North Korea.
>>82576673
>Hell, I don't think Vision even has a nationality...
Birthright American citizen!
Suck it, Trumpies.
>>82576781
I would think most of those people were dealt with after Winter Soldier.
>>82576819
Either way, he's still handing power over to Ross of all people. A fairly obvious villain.
>>82576803
But he was made in South Korea, America is just where he was turned on.
>>82576750
>a bunch of whom are probably Hydra
The release of the Hydra files left only a few people like the covert Russian agent out there, and he was hardly active, he was a paranoid guy in a shitty house jumping at shadows.
With 117 nations signing, that means that at LEAST 79 nations weren't involved, as Marvel has several more nations than the real world.
The Avengers would end up answering to the UN Security Council, the same body that has tried to control them from the start, except now Fury isn't active to run interference for them.
This thread is terrible, the OP is dumb as fuck, and someone needs to make a better thread with a less idiotic OP.
>>82576840
Life doesn't start at conception in New York, Anon. It fits.
Birthright citizen as fuck.
Having the UN in charge of you to do anything is code for"we don't want you to do anything"
>>82576861
The World Security Council isn't the UN Security Council.
>>82576973
The World Security Council is a made up thing that allows the Marvel Universe to use the member nations of the Security Council but "lol not really".
but you're alright with them doing dirty work for the american dictatorships?
Listen to me, just because you have a nice car and an ipod doesn't mean it's not a dictatorship.
>"Guys, the super heroes will clearly do what is right every time"
>"Guys, just trust us, okay?"
We don't even allow people to carry pea-shooters and have rudimentary authority over other people without burring them in red-tape. Why the fuck should we let people will super powers and WMD weapons waltz around doing whatever the fuck they want.
We might as well just let people maintain private armies and let them decide for themselves when and where to use it.
>>82576383
>"North Korea can just bribe China"
Are you 12 years old?
You do know that NK gets basically all their shit FROM China, right? They basically don't produce anything.
>>82577026
>We don't even allow people to carry pea-shooters ... without burring them in red-tape.
Sounds like someone isn't living the American Lifestyle
>>82577153
My point wasn't really about CARRYING them more about how they're allowed to actually use them.
That is, a police officer has far greater leniency to shoot a nig than Schmoe Average.
>>82577055
The fact that he seemed to think that China could make someone Kim Jongs sex slave is far more solid proof that they are 12 years old. NK bribing China is just the icing on that shit cake
Jeez. It's like this movie was just begging to invite /pol/ to /co/.
Why do people who save the planet need to be regulated by the UN? There a shitload of countries in the UN and a lot of them are run by corrupt governments. Doesn't it make more sense to let them do their own thing instead?
>>82577210
The Avengers independently doing cool shit makes the nations of the world feel smaller in the pants, so they gotta try to be all assertive and shit and chimp out with the Accords.
>>82576367
>UN security council
They explicitly state that it isn't the security council making the decisions about when to call in the Avengers.
Did no one party attention to the fucking movie? Or are you being retarded on purpose?
i wonder if any of those countries are Latveria, Stark...
>>82577289
you know there isnt
makes me wonder with all the shit the universe is lacking who do they even have in the raft prison
>>82577252
But the security council members have veto power over any action the UN takes, unless the Accord is a specific exception. Which makes no sense.
>>82577338
Abomination probably.
This whole ordeal is dealt with wayy more smoothly in Daredevil S2 (basically same storyline, just replace stark with DD and Cap America with Punisher; DD wants the justice system to have the last word, while Punisher is a vigilante).
and also, in NO UNIVERSE is Cap. America right in the argument. he basically wants all supers to be unregulated and only dealt with when the time comes. That is the kind of shit that gets millions of people killed
>wah wah muh Bucky
>wah wah muh friendz
btw can I just say, that that scene in the prison was completely unecessary. Why the fuck would Disney go out of their way to antagonize Stark when EVERYONE that was imprisoned was imprisoned due to their own stupidity?
>>82576296
>The movie states that the sanctions had to be a approved by the UN
Remind me, anon, which two authoritarian governments have permanent seats on the UN security council which would, presumably, need to authorize any Avengers mission?
>>82577401
>I know they've saved humanity from destruction several times but can we really trust them to do the right thing? The UN is much more trustworthy
>>82577370
but isnt he a gamma vilain and dont they go to the cube?
though i guess the other prison dont exist like the big house and the other one
so like is the raft even that big a deal in the absence of all the other prisons?
>>82577349
>But the security council members have veto power over any action the UN takes
Then why would Ross mention it at all?
>>82577401
>Tony nearly ends the world with artificial intelligence
>nobody else does anything bad aside from Wanda
>WE NEED TO BE PUT IN CHECK
Why didn't Tony just submit himself to government oversight on his projects, since he was clearly the only problem?
>>82577460
>It's a "The general populace can see into the Avengers' minds" episode
>It's a "If people do a good thing then we should give them unlimited authority to do whatever they want forever" episode
>It's a "If people mean well then they could surely NEVER do anything harmful" episode
>It's a "I'm a literal fucking toddler" episode
>>82577401
Swallow a dick. Cap is right, Cap is always fucking right. Cap is never in a situation where he is wrong.
>>82577507
Reminder that Tony was literally the only one with the problem, and projected his internal demons onto everyone else.
>abloo bloo bloo Hulk killed two people with rubble while saving the world from aliens, someone stop this madman!
AoU was literally all Tony's fault, and if he's so concerned about his actions he should have just submitted himself to government oversight. Banner and Thor have done literally nothing wrong.
>>82577401
is the daredevil's activity supervised by a governing body?
... and im pretty sure that argument in DD was about justifying killing bad guys. Zemo appeared to be alive to me. Loki is still alive as well.
>>82577486
In the comics he'd go to the cube but until they introduce any of the other prisons I just assume they all go to the Raft...well the ones that survive anyway. How many MCU villains are actually still alive?
>>82577507
They saved the world from Aliens.
They saved the world from Ultron. Or are you going to assume that everyone knew Tony made Ultron straight away?
One of them is literally a national hero, probably above the Level that Sir Winston Churchill is to the British.
>Implying that the US army doesn't do some shady as fuck shit sometimes, and yet people still support our troops to the point that criticising the military openly could get your ass kicked
>Implying that after saving the world twice, they wouldn't be viewed in the same way
>>82577507
They are the heroes of the entire planet. If you can't trust the people who have saved the human race multiple times, can you trust the UN?
>>82577530
>It's a "The government and general populace should act on information they haven't been given" Episode
>It's a "The government and general populace should unquestioning accept information they have no way to verify" Episode
>It's a "They haven't done anything bad or abusive yet so that means they never ever could" Episode
>It's a "I think this is only about collateral damage" Episode
>It's a "I'm still a literal toddler goo goo ga ga where's that nipple?" Episode
>>82577550
Red Skull isn't dead, just.....Somewhere thanks to the Cube
The real Mandarin is out there somewhere, so is Trevor
Loki is still about
Thanos
Zemo
The Collector could be seen as something of a villain.
Claw is still alive
>>82577507
> not able to admit he made any wrong decisions
so how's Pepper doin', Tony?
>>82577530
Banner is at fault for being a limpwristed pussy who went with Tony's ideas just because he said so. Banner knew it was a bad idea, but he helped Tony make Ultron anyways.
>>82577584
Who said anything about the government's knowledge? I'm saying that if Tony was so concerned, he should have submitted himself to oversight and not forced everyone else to as well.
I'm sure Russia and China will be very eager to vote yea on allowing the Avengers to intervene in humanitarian crises in their client states.
>>82577597
but who is in the raft besides abomination?
zemo isnt even at the fucking cube. they have him in a box at berlin chilling with the hobbit
>>82576204
If some supervillain was threatening the North Korean people I'm sure the Avengers will want to help anyway, even though it extends the dictatorship. Lesser of two evils and all that.
>>82577597
And Abomination, Nebula and several others.
I don't understand this meme, it's Batmanslaughter who kills most of his enemies.
>>82577623
zemo isnt at the raft i meant
>>82577625
To be fair, Best Korea would probably have supermen of their own. Vastly inferior supermen, but supermen none the less
>>82577607
Downey Jr has said recently that he's bringing back Gweneth Paltrow into the MCU.
What have the avengers done that warrants oversight like this, Wanda fucked with the Avengers and they forgave her but I'm struggling to think of her as anything but an accomplice.Sure she should be held accountable though. The only other Avenger that's fucked up is Tony and now he's saying that the team fucked up, He's the only one to causes the problems they fight. New York was an alien invasion and without the Avengers the city would have been nuked which still wouldn't stop it. Washington was secret Nazis which clearly wasn't cap's Falcon's or Black Widow's fault. Sokovia was all on Stark and Banner and even then mostly Stark because he bullied his reluctant toadie into it.
>>82577640
And the Leader
And Justin Hammer
>>82577597
More than I thought then I still wish we had more though, it feels a little hollow without more vilains.
>>82577647
Zemo is just a guy with superior internet skills.
Why would he be at the raft?
The human Avengers are at the raft not because they can't be held otherwise, but because they have friends like The Hulk and Thor.
>>82577652
Rescue when?
>>82577675
>>82577665
>>82577640
Zola could potentially come back, if they made a copy of his brain or something
>>82577683
With Zola taunting them with the whole "cut of a head" thing, he's certainly got himself a backup.
He had access to the the wider world, after all.
>>82577678
But Cap single handily broke them out without his shield or suit, it would have been more efficient to lock them in a normal Supermax
>>82577680
Could be a possibility, Gwyneth has said she doesn't want to be just a love interest character. But I kond of doubt it. I don't see much room for Pepper in these movies anymore.
>>82577530
Truth.
During the Battle Of New York, Cap clearly states that their first priority is evacuating citizens. During the siege on S.H.I.E.L.D they succeeded by a margin of a couple of seconds in preventing Hydra from killing a few MILLION people. In Sokovia, they literally prevented a global extinction event.
Okay, so that las one was totally Stark's fault, but that's no reason to bash the rest of the team over the head with it. The only legit blame on the team's carelessness was the direction Wanda threw Rumlow. Of course there were bystanders on the ground, too, so if she'd done nothing then the casualties wouldn't have been much different. Nevermind the fact that he was stealing a biological weapon from the Center For Infectious Diseases that could have killed millions.
>>82577678
so then who is the raft for initially?
wasnt there some other guys in the cells besides avengers?
I thought this movie was pretty cool. I sympathize with Tony 100%, beginning to end.
>>82577700
The government really has this trend of underestimating Cap, given that he's escaped SHIELD singlehandedly as well.
They seem to think he's just this "Aw Shucks, Gee Fellas" guy with nice pecs, when he's an inhuman wrecking machine.
Fuck, they sent Steve-lite in to fight the Hulk at one point. They must be rewatching too much footage from the Avengers movie.
>>82576204
>implying NK is the enemy
China is the real problem now
>>82577612
Have you considered that maybe, JUST MAYBE, it isn't the Avengers' fucking business to poke their nose into the business of anyone and anything?
Have you considered that maybe the lives of a the people of a town aren't worth the complete breakdown of the concept of national authority and jurisdiction? Are they also gonna break into Chinese prisons and rescue political prisoners? Are they also gonna blow up military equipment and stop mobilizations if they feel they're wrong or will lead to needless loss of life? If the Avengers are allowed to blatantly ignore the will of the governments in the places where they operate then where the fuck is the logical end-point of shit?
Have you considered that maybe the Avengers are people with flawed perceptions and personal codes of judgement who cannot actually be trusted to exercise their limitless power without any kind of oversight?
Have you considered that allowing anyone, even the most virtuous person you think you know, absolute authority with no limit is a highway to fucking disaster?
Have you considered that "If they do something bad we'll deal with it afterwards" is HOPELESSLY fucking inadequate?
Have you considered having a little cry so your mommy will know you're hungry? Maybe you'll think more clearly after you have a little cry.
>>82577698
At some point he's gonna remotely hack an Iron man suit and upload himself into it, later turning it into a MCU version of his mechanical design from the comics.
>>82577491
>>82577530
>>82577607
you retards fucking know that the reason he agrees to the accords is because he sees himself as a liability and rather irresponsible right? He wants to be controlled so another Ultron doesn't happen, and he wants the Avengers to be controlled so another Tony Stark doesn't happen.
>hurr durr muh hero would never do that
tell that to Bucky obsessed Cap. he just happened to be right this time.
>>82577401
the best part is the avengers destroyed a whole aiport or atleast did a lot of proparty damage not fighting against evil but fighting against each other and it is somehow ok to not having to face consquences for this.
Cap always talks about consquences and responsability for your own actions and he better than anyone should know that it doesn't matter if the mission was a success, as long as there are sacrifices during the process, you have to take responsability for that as the leader and he never took responsability for anything, not even for the colateral damage done when he helped Bucky to escape.
>>82577731
>yfw it's Team America: World Police all over again
>>82577702
Downey wants her back in the Marvel films, and he has enormous pull with Disney/Marvel Studios.
"I guess I can dream a little bit. My free pass is — because her and [my wife] Susan are such good friends — is Paltrow. I gotta get her back in these movies so I can make out with her onscreen again," the Captain America: Civil War actor, 51, said during the SiriusXM broadcast.
He added of Susan: "She could care less."
Even so, the actor admitted that there's a catch: He and Paltrow could only kiss if they were "rolling on a take."
Downey and Paltrow, who is currently dating producer Brad Falchuk, played a couple in the first three Iron Man movies. Paltrow doesn't appear in the newest Marvel Universe flick, Captain America: Civil War, but that doesn't mean Pepper is gone for good.
"She's coming back," Downey said. "We need her."
>>82577743
>mfw new Captain America is secretly young super-soldiered Bernie Sanders
>>82577705
>that last one was totally Stark's fault
Thor's comment about everyone being pawns of (Thanos), and the post credit scene of Thanos saying he'll just do it himself implies that Thanos used the mind gem to influence the kind of whammy Scarlet Witch hit Tony with, and and what Scarlet Witch says when Quicksilver questions why she let them leave with the staff, plus HYDRA also using the staff to develop AI implies that SOMEONE was going to make Ultron, according to Thanos's keikaku, and Tony was the poor sucker who walked into the role.
>>82577731
>Gets so angry at the thought that anyone might disagree with him he repeatedly calls them a baby
>Ironically doesn't realise how childish this sounds
Not that anon, but for me one of the things I've really liked about this film is the fact that one can legitimately argue either side. In that regard it succeeds where its comic counterpart failed.
Why get so mad when it, to some degree, achieves what its tagline set out to do?
>>82576204
>Assuming the most non-democratic countries get a say so you can justify ignoring democracy
You're an idiot OP.
>>82577683
Reminder that Nat said the thumbdrive had an AI on it that was rewriting itself to counter her commands, and she plugged that thumbdrive into the world wide web via a completely unsecured computer in a shopping mall. Also Zola dodged the question when she asked him what was on the thumbdrive, and the thumbdrive came from the facility where Zola was. That's a pretty big plot opening through which Zola could have copied himself into the internet.
There's also the fact that this thumbdrive was a copy of the hard drive on the Lumerian Star, and I don't remember seeing that ship sink or explode. If the thumbdrive was a copy of Zola, then the Lumerian Star's hard-drive also had a copy of Zola. The thumbdrive was destroyed in the missile strike along with the magnetic tapes, but since the 1970's computers didn't even start up until Nat plugged the thumbdrive in he might not have even been on the tapes anymore, they could have been talking to the copy on the thumbdrive.
>>82577794
because you CAN'T argue for either side.
Captain America's view is inherently, and on a wider scale, wrong and very fatal to the world.
He puts the lives of millions of bystanders at risk by going with a we'll deal with it when the moment comes + holier than the government attitude.
And then, there's the political side, where NA would become a hotspot for all types of antagonising by the ENTIRE WORLD since the Avengers are stationed there
Winter Soldier-ized Zemo
Enchantress
Executioner
Abomination
Arnim Zola-piloted Crimson Dynamo
Klaw
Radioactive Man
others
Fuck, I'd take a 9 on 9 Avengers/Masters of Evil fight for Avengers 4
>>82577731
>it isn't the Avengers' fucking business to poke their nose into the business of anyone and anything?
Depends on your point of view.
When the threat at hand is "wipe out the entire human race", then it directly, personally affects everyone on the team. If someone's going to blow up my planet, that makes it my business even if they're doing it in your shitty eastern european country. If they were just trying to overthrow the local government you'd have a point, but when it's "stop the murderbot in Sokovia or New York gets incinerated" there's really no difference between staying out of it and suicide.
>>82577848
>He puts the lives of millions of bystanders at risk by going with a we'll deal with it when the moment comes
This is the case by anyone responding to alien invasions/Asgardian menace/super-threat of the week.
There's no world body to respond to these incredible threats, especially since SHIELD rotted from within.
It's not like they were trespassing in countries to fight against political oppression or to take down rebel groups.
Caps POV only works in a idealized world were the good guys fight the evil guys, while Tonys way is the reasonable, realistic outcome, it would happen one way or another.
>>82577820
>There's also the fact that this thumbdrive was a copy of the hard drive on the Lumerian Star, and I don't remember seeing that ship sink or explode. If the thumbdrive was a copy of Zola, then the Lumerian Star's hard-drive also had a copy of Zola. The thumbdrive was destroyed in the missile strike along with the magnetic tapes, but since the 1970's computers didn't even start up until Nat plugged the thumbdrive in he might not have even been on the tapes anymore, they could have been talking to the copy on the thumbdrive.
Someone else analysed Zola' claim that he was stored on 20,000 feet of megnetic tape, and predicted that Zola's entire mind can be stored in 16 Gigabytes.
It is extremely likely that Zola had already being replicated and backed up in the last few decades, as they bothered to install a USB plug for him. And certainly they would have predicted that the magnetic tape would have failed eventually just from old age.
>>82577794
I would very much agree that the movie completely failed to show the nuances of the issue it was grappling with and thereby managed to make the two sides seem almost equally legitimate.
But given that I'm talking to another person on an imageboard and not trying to have a conversation with the script I don't see how that is relevant.
Are you saying that I am only allowed to pick a side and then I should contain myself only to the arguments that are made for that side WITHIN the actual movie? Because then we're not discussing anything, we're just quoting lines at each other.
>>82577861
>Arnim Zola-piloted Crimson Dynamo
>"Hallo, Herr Rogers."
>Everyone looks from the suit to Tony.
>"I did not build that."
>Klaw
>Something-something Molten Vibranium, something-something molecular destabiliser.
>>82577848
So despite the fact he trusted a governmental organisation once that turned out to be mostly Hydra in disguise, he should just blindly trust another one?
When he knows Bucky didn't do the attack on the UN he shouldn't "plant himself like a tree beside the river of truth and say no, you move"?
He didn't have a point about governmental organisations being inherently corrupt to some degree or another, them having their own agendas that the Avengers might be manipulated into following and the dangers of being tangled up in red tape?
The fact that of all the events shown, more people would have died if not for the Avengers. That of all of them, Sokovia was on Stark, not anyone else and Lagos was a fuck up by Scarlet Witch that, to be fair, would have probably killed more people if she had let him blow up on the ground?
You can come down on whatever side you want, but don't pretend Caps side didn't have any legitimate points
>>82577917
Crimson Dynamo could be a knock off of Veronica, and be the size of the Earth's mightiest heroes suit.
>>82576204
>If
>This means that if North Korea has its own supervillain threatening the country, The Avengers (an American-based team) has to respond to that in accordance with the accords, which means that The Avengers are helping to ensure the existence of a dictatorship for the next few decades.
I guess that depends on what kind of supervillain it is, if it was like freedom fighters fighting the government? I guess there'd be more gray morality in it, if it was some super powered bozo using his powers on civilians then Accords or not, the Avengers would be fighting them off either way.
>>82577869
The post I was replying to specifically referenced a "Humanitarian crisis"
Those generally don't involve the end of the world, those words are more generally used to describe shit like earthquakes or mudslides.
His argument is that, if such a crisis were to occur in some shitty dictatorship and the country said that it didn't want the Avengers butting in, then the Avengers should just ignore them and do it anyway.
And my argument is that that is fucking stupid and that you can't just waltz into another country and do whatever the fuck you want if you've been barred from it by that nation's government. EVEN if it results in the needless death of hundreds of people you just CAN'T fucking do it.
There's also the fact that I can't remember a single time when any country has refused help in the case of a humanitarian crisis that wasn't military in nature, which lends a whole other dimension to why his argument is dumb.
We're not talking about a system where the Avengers would be disallowed from doing anything at all, if there was an actual world threatening event going on then why the fuck would the UN prevent the Avengers from solving it?
>>82577893
Then it's a good thing this movie is set in a world where good guys fight bad guys and there are people with magic powers running around.
>>82577525
Avengers vs X-Men had a very wrong (and out of character) Cap.
>>82577895
>20,000 feet
It was 200,000.
And he could easily have been copied long before cap and widow showed up.
>>82577962
North Korea would never be one of the 117 nations to sign a joint security accord.
Neither would China.
Even assuming that theres still only 189 nations (and that Wakanda, Latveria and Sokovia aren't extra) there's still a lot of paranoid nations that wouldn't have anything to do with The Avengers.
It's silly and disingenuous to keep bringing N Korea into this.
>>82577731
>>82578001
Given his knowlege of certain events, he must be connected to the internet in some fashion. It's either that or someone would have to drive out there on a fairly regular basis to update him on current events
>>82578003
>It's silly and disingenuous to keep bringing N Korea into this.
Agreed.
The UN itself is all the proof you need that their oversight would be shit
>>82577984
which is the only world in which Cap is right and all others are wrong.
>>82578033
Exactly.
It just hitches the Avengers to a contrary and indecisive governing body that uses half-measures and dithers around.
>>82578039
Yes, that is the point. They live in a world where Malekith exists.
So they must be that way.
>>82576501
That really bothered me that nobody called out Ross for making both Hulk and Abomination.
>>82577975
>why the fuck would the UN prevent the Avengers from solving it?
So...did you watch Civil War?
Because that's pretty much what happened. For all they knew, Zemo was going to revive this team of super-soldatz that could topple any country in the world in one night.
And did the UN even deliberate on it?
Nope, General Thunderbolt Ross took command of the situation and ignored Tony's suggestion to put eyes out for Zemo. The very clear result of the Accords was not "Avengers need UN permission to do humanitarian stuff", it was "General Ross is in charge now".
>>82578028
>Given his knowlege of certain events, he must be connected to the internet in some fashion. It's either that or someone would have to drive out there on a fairly regular basis to update him on current events
It is even possible that Hydra doesn't even use the original Zola databank anymore and they are just keeping this one updated once in a while. It explains why the place is so dusty, as the copies are probably what Hydra would have choose to use these days.
So where does punisher fit into all this? Can they even put him in a movie that isn't R rated?
I have a question for all the
>hurr avengers cause damages in cities
shit.
If someone attacks you on the street to knife you and you push them back in self defense and they fall on a shop's viewing window and break it along with some vases in it are you responsible for the damage? It'd be pretty dumb if you are.
The shit with the avengers causing damages is pretty much the same on a larger scale.
The thing that bugged me the most is that they said the Accords would only deploy the avengers after a council approves them. The events of Avengers 1, 2 and Winter Soldier happened really fast, what would have happened if they had to wait for some government bureaucrats to give them the green light?
How can Tony possibly trust such a council after an organization like Shield had been infested with Hydra? If it happened there, it could happen here.
It is good character development how in Iron Man 2, Tony was adamant that he was the best man to hold the Iron Man suit, and over the course of the movies he grows more and more attached to large organizations like shield and now the UN.
>>82577925
>So despite the fact he trusted a governmental organisation once that turned out to be mostly Hydra in disguise, he should just blindly trust another one?
So you're saying he shouldn't blindly trust the UN but the entire world should blindly trust him?
You do understand that other people can't see into Cap's head right?
>When he knows Bucky didn't do the attack on the UN he shouldn't "plant himself like a tree beside the river of truth and say no, you move"?
Yes?
The idea that you can do whatever you want because "You know you're right" is something even a child can understand is wrong.
>He didn't have a point about governmental organisations being inherently corrupt to some degree or another, them having their own agendas that the Avengers might be manipulated into following and the dangers of being tangled up in red tape?
And you're saying that this is a big enough problem to completely dissolve the idea of national authority? That because sometimes bad people get into power and do bad things that Governments shouldn't have power at all? That somehow the Avengers are incorruptible and will always do the right thing as long as they don't get under the thumb of a larger organization?
>>82578074
Yes, the movie DID in fact manage to create the stupidest possible strawman of what superhero oversight could look like, a system which no country would ever agree to. Having Ross in sole command is no different from the pre-accord system, only even worse since a single man had all the superpowers.
Civil War only makes Cap's side seem reasonable by endlessly contriving things so that Tony's side looks stupid and evil. That doesn't change that Cap's side is ultimately no better than "Policemen should be able to do whatever they want because what if like, the police chief was evil lmao"
If cap had given Bucky to Iron man, then he would've been able to convince Tony to help him Zemo and the super soldiers, they wouldn't have to fight in the airport, Zemos plan wouldn't have worked because Tony had then time to think about the death of his parents or atleast he wouldn't have tried to kill Bucky immediately and Tony and Iron man would've captured Zemo without much problems.
Even if Cap later doesn't agree with Buckys sentence, he could've helped him escape like he did with the avengers at the end of the movie. Anyway Bucky didn't even want to be free at the end because he realized he is actually dangerous, this kinda made the whole thing pointless.
>>82576861
>he was a paranoid guy in a shitty house jumping at shadows.
Not paranoid enough, as it turned out
was it ever established before the video tape that cap knew buck killed tony's parents?
>>82578206
Zemo was a pretty slick guy.
>>82578190
>So you're saying he shouldn't blindly trust the UN but the entire world should blindly trust him?
The movie answered this for you with SW, you can't control other peoples fear, but you can control your own. You're responsible for you.
>>82578190
>The idea that you can do whatever you want because "You know you're right" is something even a child can understand is wrong.
Capitulating in the face of what you know is wrong is the definition of moral cowardice.
>>82578186
But wasn't he? When Hammer tried to make his own version of the suit it led to an army of killer robots led by Ivan.
When black man stole one of the suits it led to him being controlled by Ivan too.
Tony might be a hopeless drunk that was dying but he seemed completely right in IM2. Also what happened to the war machine suit that black man stole? I never watched the third movie so I don't know.
>>82578137
Just Warmachine without a suit. Also could snipe in the backlines with Clint.
>>82578274
>Also what happened to the war machine suit that black man stole?
Tony got the Warmachine suit back because it was his. He then scraped it and gave his friend a new suit without all the Hammer tech.
>>82576204
Even worse, they're handing the power of the hulk over to general Ross
>>82578274
Yea, you're right. Stark's development is driven by his guilt. At the start he feels like a major hot shot and believes he can take anything that comes his way. But as his guilt piles up he looks for ways to abdicate responsibility. That's sort of what he was doing in IM3 with all the different suits.
In Avengers 2 he wanted to absolve himself by delegating things to this new Ultron program. The scene between Cap and him on the farm shows this as well. He argued for ending situations before they started because he was afraid of the consequences.
>>82576316
OP gave a perfect example of a scenario where the UN pushed for something, but was shot down because China and Russia don't give a shit about drugs wrecking the two Americas.
No, you won't get a country controlling them for evil. But some megapowers could easily block their actions and risking lives in the process.
>>82578329
Consequences are scary man.
>>82577731
>Have you considered that maybe, JUST MAYBE, it isn't the Avengers' fucking business to poke their nose into the business of anyone and anything?
Poking your nose into the business of anyone and anything is literally what the entire superhero genre stands for, anon.
>>82578190
>the movie DID in fact manage to create
Okay, so now we're getting down to the nitty-gritty of this argument.
You're basically saying that Cap would be wrong if you had written the movie, because you don't like what happened in the actual movie.
When you continue this argument (and you will, I know) you're going to go on about what would *really* happen, or more accurately what you think would happen, if all of this were real life situations involving alien hordes, nigh-indestructible robots, and norse deities. Meanwhile everyone else is discussing the actual events of the movie and you just look like a tool.
>>82578190
They don't need to "see into his head". The Avengers can issue a press release. In fact, if not for the Bucky thing, that's likely how it would have went down.
>Doing something when you know your right is wrong
So even though you know for a fact that you are right, you should still bend over and allow people to do things counter to it?
>And you're saying that this is a big enough problem to completely dissolve the idea of national authority?
What I am saying is that he lives in a world where a secret nazi organisation managed to infiltrate the worlds biggest spy organisation over the course of 60 years, commissioned a new fleet of helicarriers and had them programmed to target and kill, without trial, anyone that might remotely stand in the way of their rise to world domination.
You can't compare that to the real world notion of governance because no such parallel exists, but you can bet your ass the notion of government corruption would be a far bigger deal in the Marvel Universe post Washington. A crisis Cap averted by the way, just in case you were wondering why people might trust his view on things.
On the subject of childishness, something you seem to like to bring up, arrogantly assuming you are right about something in a debate of opinions is pretty fucking childish anon. Pic related.
>yfw you realize Civil War has started a civil war on /co/
Sometimes I want to punch you all in your perfect teeth.
>>82577941
I like the way you think. Only difference here would be that the Red Dynamo suit doesn't have an iron man suit inside of it, it just has a screen for zolas face on a servo arm.
>>82577925
>>82577925
>So despite the fact he trusted a governmental organisation once that turned out to be mostly Hydra in disguise, he should just blindly trust another one?
No one is telling him to blindly trust it. Do you blindly trust the government?
>When he knows Bucky didn't do the attack on the UN he shouldn't "plant himself like a tree beside the river of truth and say no, you move"?
No, but harboring a suspected criminal away from the justice system also isn't the right choice
>He didn't have a point about governmental organisations being inherently corrupt to some degree or another, them having their own agendas that the Avengers might be manipulated into following and the dangers of being tangled up in red tape?
Saving Bucky was ENTIRELY CAP'S AGENDA, fuck, if you wanna talk about agendas
>The fact that of all the events shown, more people would have died if not for the Avengers. That of all of them, Sokovia was on Stark, not anyone else and Lagos was a fuck up by Scarlet Witch that, to be fair, would have probably killed more people if she had let him blow up on the ground?
The bomb only became a problem because Cap decided to tard out amidst combat.. even he admitted that. so it WAS his fault that people died, cause it could've been a 0-victim mission
also, >>82577733
>>82578329
And the Ultron project, had it succeeded, would have been the ultimate defense for Earth. Tony had the right idea, and desu, I would've supported him 99/99 times
>>82578482
It's honestly amazing to me how many statist cucks there are
The fact that someone like General Ross is in charge should tell you all you need to know about the Accords and what a shitty idea they are.
(Hint: Ross basically created 2 Hulks)
>>82577731
>it isn't the Avengers' fucking business to poke their nose into the business of anyone and anything?
most of the Avenger's activities were hunting down Hydra. an international terrorist organization. If you are protecting Hydra, it is the entire fucking world's business. The rest of their activities were hunting down alien invaders (the entire world's fucking business) and stopping a genocidal robot legion (the entire world's fucking business)
>>82578502
How does this surprise you at this point?
>>82578527
I dunno. I guess I underestimated how shitty /co/ is
>>82578501
>No one is telling him to blindly trust it.
Uh...that's what the Sokovian Accords were:
Trust the UN to know better than you do about when you should or shouldn't intervene to save lives.
>>82578508
Was he in charge, or was he just the guy who gave them the accords. Because I'm sure a bunch of countries were calling the president saying keep your caped weirdos off our land, they keep blowing shit up.
>>82578558
He seemed be directly involved in reining in the Avengers and telling them this and that
Of course the 117 countries were the driving force but Ross has a big part it in and that's a major warning sign
can I just raise to attention the fact that THE VISION WAS NOWHERE TO BE SEEN DURING THE AIRPORT FIGHT?
it's like: "welp, I'm done posing for the fangasm shot, time to go to starbucks and get myself a milkshake" while Scarlet Witch was allowed to fuck people's 1v1s up.
>>82578557
except even Stark said that was just the PR front and they were going to negotiate the actual terms later. cept I guess team Cap decided to disregard that scene completely.
>>82578558
He seemed to be in charge of the Raft at least
>>82578558
Regardless, the fact he was even the messenger is a pretty bad sign.
>>82578582
>except even Stark said that was just the PR front and they were going to negotiate the actual terms later
That's what most would call an outright lie
>>82578508
>Ross basically created 2 Hulks
Three if you count the deleted scene comment about Al Haqeed.
>>82578582
Yea, that's smarts. Just sign this contract, sure the terms are crap, but trust me, we can get better terms later.
>>82578558
He was in charge enough to dismiss Stark and threaten him with superjail.
>>82578582
>can I just raise to attention the fact that THE VISION WAS NOWHERE TO BE SEEN DURING THE AIRPORT FIGHT?
>it's like: "welp, I'm done posing for the fangasm shot, time to go to starbucks and get myself a milkshake" while Scarlet Witch was allowed to fuck people's 1v1s up.
That entire scene was embarrassing to watch.
Characters simply faded out of existence when they weren't directly shown on screen, even Scarlet Witch disappeared for what seemed like minutes at a time, seemingly not doing anything despite not fighting anyone when she was last shown and not fighting anyone when she gets shown again.
Cap is only right because it is him, we know we can generally trust his views and actions as the viewer as well as the other avengers because the characters are set up to be likeable good guys.
The problem is (and this is more obvious in comics) the more people you give power with no authority to keep them in check the worse shit gets fucked up even just street level ones.
>>82578214
Zola heavily implied it
>>82578582
> they were going to negotiate the actual terms later
And how did that turn out for him?
When Tony tries to reason with Ross and opposes the others being locked up, he is shot down and immediately backs up like a little bitch.
>>82578581
>>82578558
>>82578508
desu at least in this movie I have a feeling Ross might be the unappreciated nice guy in this whole ordeal
>yfw he was trying to damage control for the Avengers on the international stage
>>82578614
>>82578608
Stark literally POWERS NYC by himself. He has more than enough leverage to negotiate for more freedom
>>82578641
>and people praise it as the best scene in the movie
It's hilarious how everyone is so far in favor of one or the other. The movie did it's job well.
>>82578668
>He has more than enough leverage to negotiate for more freedom
Does he? Ross told him to fuck off when he went to the Raft
>>82578668
what the fuck is filtered under "desu"?
>>82578668
>and people praise it as the best scene in the movie
Who? The best scenes were at the russian bunker.
>>82578508
>>82578558
Isn't Ross a fucking US military officer?
What is even the point of the accords being a UN thing at all if they're just gonna delegate it all to the US army, or just one guy in the fucking US army.
I thought the world had learned a fucking lesson in what corruption is after Winter Soldier.
The movie is seriously just badly written, both sides come off as retards because of the way the movie lays it out, barely any of what happens seems to make sense.
>>82578692
It's ''Tbh''.
>>82578692
the abbreviation of "to be honest"
>>82578668
Stark brought evidence that someone else was behind the bombing and Ross was basically like "Fuck that shit"
He's definitely not the "unappreciated nice guy"
>>82578592
Also when Cap, Sam, Bucky, and T'Challa were brought in to the facility where Tony was, Tony was on the phone with Ross and Ross was demanding that there be repurcussions. Stark was answering directly to Ross.
When Tony went to the Raft, he told Ross about Zemo and Ross said "You seriously think I'm going to listen to YOU?".
Ross wasn't just in charge of the Raft, he was running the initiative. Ross was the one who, as the US Secretary of State, would be answering to the UN, not the Avengers themselves.
>>82578608
Especially considering the heads of 117 countries signing the Accords as-is, and Stark already having signed them himself, there was nothing for the Avengers members to negotiate. Ross made that very clear when Widow asked what happens if they come to a decision he doesn't like: "Then you RETIRE."
>>82578681
If I see a thread about to be derailed, I can't just ignore it. Sometimes, I wish I could.
>>82578696
still, not even. Best scenes were Black Panther scenes. Best scene is prolly the rooftop fight between BP and WS
>>82578718
>>82578721
WHAT IS THIS FAGGOTRY
>>82578692
2b honest
>>82578582
>except even Stark said that was just the PR front and they were going to negotiate the actual terms later. cept I guess team Cap decided to disregard that scene completely.
Steve Rogers just outright refuse to sign his name on anything he doesn't believe in. This is a fair position to take. The fact that War Machine and Vision was probably the only two people who actually INTENDED to obey the Accords that he signed, out of Team Ironman, showed just how much of a sham it is.
Black Widow signs whatever because she doesn't care, and Tony signed but didn't care either. Peter didn't sign anything and neither did Black Panther. So out of the 4 signatures only two were genuine. That's sad.
>>82578736
I'm fine with it, that shit was spammed and forced into every sentence by morons.
>>82576204
>But if those 117 countries that signed the Accords included North Korea
Are you retarded OP? Since when is NK a part of the UN. There are better criticisms than this. And the Accords don't mean any one country can just call in the Avengers to do their bidding whenever they want.
>>82578712
No, you're just an idiot who can't follow a simple plot.
>>82576204
Except there are no third world dictatorships in the United Nations.
North Korea for sure.
>>82578668
>desu at least in this movie I have a feeling Ross might be the unappreciated nice guy in this whole ordeal
>Ross
>Nice
Yeah. He's just a big old teddy bear on the inside. That's why he went to renegotiate the terms of Cap's team's imprisonment after he shot Stark down.
Oh. Right. He didn't.
>>82578736
desu I'm not sure you baka senpai
>>82578712
>What is even the point of the accords being a UN thing at all if they're just gonna delegate it all to the US army, or just one guy in the fucking US army.
Because that's the reality of the UN. The UN was always going to end up being USA's bitch, this was always the way it was going to be.
>>82578748
>A robot and a US marine were loyal
>what else is new
>>82578773
>Because that's the reality of the UN. The UN was always going to end up being USA's bitch
That's not how you spell "China and Russia"
This movie made Tonystans and Capfags out of everyone.
>>82578712
>ust one guy in the fucking US army
He's a three-star general iirc. Also Vision mentioned that Tony had brought the Secretary Of State with him and I think we're meant to assume that's Ross.
>>82578748
>Steve Rogers just outright refuse to sign his name on anything he doesn't believe in. This is a fair position to take.
kek, no it fucking isn't.
Are you a Freeman on the Land too? Do you believe you can just disregard whatever the fuck you want because you disagree?
>>82578765
>>82578690
>>82578724
>this movie happened in a time span of < a week.
OF COURSE HE WOULDN'T GO ARGUE FOR SHIT AGAINST THE REST OF THE WORLD, you gotta let all the chaos cool down first.
>>82578734
>Sometimes, I wish I could.
No you don't.
>>82578803
I'm not even that much of a Capfag. I just don't understand how anyone can legitimately believe the oversight of a committee of at least 110 countries could be even remotely effective at utilizing something like the Avengers.
>>82578786
>That's not how you spell "China and Russia"
I don't see Ross answering to China or Russia. It is Americans who are staffing the Avenger faculties, until we start seeing Chinese and Russian representatives in the bases we can tell that Ross gets to run it his way.
>>82578748
>Steve Rogers just outright refuse to sign his name on anything he doesn't believe in. This is a fair position to take.
I refuse to follow the law. That too is a fair position to take, but it doesn't mean there aren't repercussions and you WILL be held accountable for your actions against societal norm
>>82578819
>kek, no it fucking isn't.
>Are you a Freeman on the Land too? Do you believe you can just disregard whatever the fuck you want because you disagree?
What's the point of signing something that you don't agree with? That's just lying, and in many places boarderline criminal when you break the contract..
>But the UN may make a bad decision
>But the heroes may make a bad decision
There, I have summed up the whole issue.
Any big political organisation will be slow and corrupt, but trusting random people who are just trying to do good can also lead to massive fuck ups (but this is a story so they usually find a way to overlook that in some way). Giving the heroes all the power to act as they want really only works in fiction
>>82578857
>I refuse to follow the law. That too is a fair position to take, but it doesn't mean there aren't repercussions and you WILL be held accountable for your actions against societal norm
That is not a reason to sign. You can imprison or even kill a man, but you can't force a man to sign a contract against his will.
>>82578836
>he oversight of a committee of at least 110 countries
To repurpose Nat's metaphor, if you have one hand on the wheel you can still steer...unless there are a hundred and seventeen other hands also on the wheel with you, then nobody can really steer.
>>82578898
and that's why you only have one hand on the wheel.
Ross:^)
>>82578847
>"That's the reality of the UN"
>"But it isn't"
>"Well you see, in this movie..:"
Anon please.
>>82578873
>What's the point of signing something that you don't agree with? That's just lying, and in many places boarderline criminal when you break the contract..
No Anon, it's called compromising on your principles, something you're likely to be forced to do many, many times in your life.
People who don't believe in taxes still have to pay taxes, people who don't agree with the rulings of a court case still have to abide by them.
>>82578898
Exactly
>>82578883
>But the UN has made bad decisions
>But the heroes may make a bad decision
ftfy
>>82578786
>Russia and China
>Standing a chance against the US
>A country with millions of citizens ready to lay down their lives for their country, is cut off from Asia and Europe by two massive oceans
>And even then most of its own civilians are armed to the teeth
>Versus two populations that despise their own countries and would have to be forced to serve under penalty of death or imprisonment/torture, probably both.
Okay guy.
>>82578898
And sometimes that one hand steers in a very bad direction while thinking it is a good thing to do. Steve is only right when that hand is always 100% correct which is unrealistic
>>82578834
You're right. I don't.
>>82578913
>People who don't believe in taxes still have to pay taxes
I've never paid taxes in my life
> people who don't agree with the rulings of a court case still have to abide by them.
they can just seek asylum in a different country
>>82578934
But that's not Steve's point. If it's only one hand on the wheel, and that hand fucks up, then that person is responsible.
But if there are five hands on the wheel, and four of them are pulling in the "right" way, it only takes one hand pulling the "wrong" way to make sure absolutely nothing gets fucking done.
>>82578920
As I said, it only works in a story where the heroes just end up being right cause they are main characters and any little things or actions that could have ended horribly are overlooked. I think the division here is more people looking at the issue realistically and those looking at it from a story stand point
Plus when you think about in in the context of the comics, heroes are constantly doing things wrong
>>82578913
>People who don't believe in taxes still have to pay taxes, people who don't agree with the rulings of a court case still have to abide by them.
That has nothing to do with signed contracts. You CANNOT force someone to sign a contract, that is not how it works. Contracts signed under threat of violence is not legally binding.
>>82578356
What are you, some kinda limp-wristed Stark faggot?
>>82578981
>people looking at it realistically think bureaucratic oversight is a good thing
Do you even read the shit you post?
>>82578922
>"People in evil countries hate their evil governments!"
This is what actual babies believe.
If you don't think both China and Russia are BRIMMING with genuine Nationalists then you're beyond fucking delusional. Not that wars are actually won by sentiment in any case.
I also like you've somehow changed the argument from "Who throws around their weight the most at the UN" to "Who could win in a fight"
It's kinda like a toddler who loses an argument and resorts to "But my dad could beat up your dad"
>>82578913
>People who don't believe in taxes still have to pay taxes, people who don't agree with the rulings of a court case still have to abide by them.
This is true.
However, people who don't believe in taxes aren't asked to sign a document stating that they agree to taxes. There's a difference.
Also refusing to sign that document was not a crime. Refusing to follow the rules it laid out might be a crime, but signing it was just a matter of endorsing it which Cap was unwilling to do because he did not agree with it.
It is true that his disagreement extended to wilfully breaking the laws the document contained, but that's a whole other matter from refusing to sign it.
>>82578983
Since Wanda was imprisoned for not signing it, it's not a contract, it's more of a law. They're just being nice in asking you to comply.
>>82578979
>then that person is responsible.
Thus we need some kind of system to hold them accountable
>But if there are five hands on the wheel, and four of them are pulling in the "right" way, it only takes one hand pulling the "wrong" way to make sure absolutely nothing gets fucking done.
4 people are stronger than one so that metaphor falls apart. Plus it is better to actually listen to that one person cause they could actually be right
>>82578973
Where the fuck do you live?
Must be a third world country because while I hate taxes as much as the next guy, a government needs them to function properly.
>>82578983
>they have to forcefully retire should they not sign the contract
>they will be branded as criminals should they endanger the general population in ANY WAY if they do not sign the contract
it's called a contract. but what it really is, is a Law for heroes to abide to.
>>82579013
Yeah man fuck the system! Lets not think about why such things developed it must just be rich evil people!
>>82579025
>Thus we need some kind of system to hold them accountable
That's not what the Accords were.
>>82578922
>I know nothing of Russia or China outside of films and books
>Muh American pride, we'd all lay down our lives
Like fuck mate. Want an example?
In your much lauded war of independence there were two sides, right? Those who found for Britain and those who fought for independece.
Wrong. There was a third very significant proportion who just plain didn't give a shit so long as they could live their lives peacefully
That's the reality of patriotism my freind. Unless you're completely brainwashed into it, a large number of people won't lay their life down for shit when push comes to shove.
>>82579016
Well then I misinterpreted your argument, and I apologize for that.
Still think the US has more pull, because the second those Russian and Chinese soldiers are exposed to our way of life they'll realize they'd been getting fucked their whole lives.
Which is partly why the internet helps negate conflict, because countries can't keep their citizens from seeing other perspectives.
>>82579020
>Since Wanda was imprisoned for not signing it, it's not a contract, it's more of a law. They're just being nice in asking you to comply.
>>82579032
>it's called a contract. but what it really is, is a Law for heroes to abide to.
And only two out of four signed in good faith. One is a serving military man and the other is an obedient android. The other two signed, but only because they consider their own signatures worthless.
>>82578558
Guys, Ross was the Secretary of State. It's the same reason John Kerry is "in charge" of Iran shit.
>>82579046
Fuck bureaucrats and fuck middlemen.
If there's one way to make sure that nothing gets done, put a committee in charge. You'd have to be blind or retarded not to realize that.
>>82579052
It is one system that helps it. Instead of just being heroes ran off to do something cause it seemed good with fuck all accountability, the decision was thought out and then they can examine what was wrong with this which would inform later plans
It would be the start of needed regulation
>>82579067
>When they're exposed to our way of life they'll realise they've been getting fucked their whole lives
Oh lawd, you really drank the kool aid, didn't you?
Newsflash mate, A lot of people in the world hate America. They hate how fake it is. How plastic it is. How Synthetic. They hate your people, they hate your way of life and they hate your culture. They see Americanism as a literal cancer on their society.
Not in a death to the west sort of way, in a "fucking Americans" kind of way.
You can delude yourself into thinking that's all just jealousy all you want.
>>82579066
I'm not a "muh freedoms" faggot for sure. Right now my country's next leader is gonna be either an evil cunt, a racist douche, and a good hearted but incredibly naive socialist. And I'm leaning towards the racist.
Thing is, we still have the largest military in the world. I know China is catching up, but we're still on top.
And I think there's a reason that even in WWII, where we started out with WWI era weapons, we were able to catch up to the rest of the world with tech.
Because instead making work and service mandatory, we're really good at manipulating freedom of choice. If your convince millions of men and women that they're choosing to become soldiers, they'll stampede through registration and training.
>>82579118
Are you an idiot? The Accords were fucking broken. They weren't a step in the right direction or whatever you think they are.
As soon as the Avengers signed it, they lost all autonomy. They no longer would have had the power to make it better, because that power was taken straight out of their hands.
It wasn't about making them accountable for their actions, it was about making them a paramilitary force controlled by the UN.
>>82576396
This is my argument. Government intervention into this is only going to slow them down and make them less efficient. The best solution would be to make the avengers into a nonprofit charity organization, that way they could be sued and host outreach programs to aid the world when it isn't getting bumrushed.
Also there should be a voluntary UN Avengers or something. That way if you agree with that situation you can join, and if you don't you dont have to. I mean really Thor should have diplomatic immunity anyway as he is an extraterrestrial.
>>82579145
I'm not saying my country is perfect. I live here, I would know.
But you're only judging the surface, you're not taking the time to actually examine my society and culture. There are good people here. Great things have come out of my nation. No, not every single great invention or deed, but we've contributed.
Unfortunately, it seems nowadays people are way too concerned for what they're supposed to be doing, not what they should do.
>>82579175
not anon, but yes, it was a step in the right direction. Something of the sort had to happen. And it's already a good first step compared to the Sentinel Project in Xmen.
It was extreme, sure, but what the fuck would you have done when outta nowhere a ragtag team of 6 people could individually wipe your country off the map twice over?
>>82579175
Wow you make a great point when you ignore everything I said up till now. They no longer have autonomy cause giving 10 heroes the power to do whatever the fuck they want is a bad idea. You only like it cause you know the characters well and trust them. That is not how anyone else would actually feel about them. Instead having representatives look at events and decide what to do would give a better out come with a proper way to impose accountability.
>>82579207
That would just mean they are being constantly sued out the ass and not able to act because of it
