What would you do if you were in Tony's position when Zemo showed the tape?
Well, I'm an orphan abandoned by my parents, so I don't think it would have affected me much
Punch cap. Kill bucky. Cry.
That was absolutely brutal.
Tony should've just killed them, he really could have easily but he was not prepared for that
>>82574950
I'm not a killer or much for conflict in general. I'd prolly just cry like a bitch.
>>82574950
This was a stupid moment for Tony. I get he saw his parents get murdered but usually people lash out for a minute before coming to their senses. Not spend the last 15 minutes fighting their allies while the guy behind everything almost gets away.
>>82574950
Ask Steve to hold me back.
>>82575134
Yeah but he already had a weirdly powerful hate boner for Bucky.
>>82574950
rape the Winter Soldier
Bust open Zemo's cell, demand that everyone in the room returns to the the Raft until all the evidence is reviewed by unbiased third parties, then fly to Queens to continue hitting on Aunt May.
>cap didnt tell tony
I would be furious.
>>82574950
>"hey Steve, isn't it ironic how in BvS the mother stops the fight? Well in this movie, the mother STARTS the fight."
>>82574950
>build a time machine
>make Cap's early life a traumatic living hell
>capture it all on video
>return to present
>send Cap a letter describing what I did including a copy of the video
>do the same to Zemo
>>82575164
Gordon you need to go to bed.
Also I wanna lick your ass.
>>82574950
Vaporize both Bucky and Cap, proceed to get killed by BP.
>>82574950
Probably lost it too, especially if I had access to a power suit.
>>82574950
Realize hes fucking with my head and join Cap to take him down.
>>82574950
I love my parents, so I'd probably flip the fuck out.
>>82575388
>fucking with my head
its not like he didn't actually kill them
>>82575347
>IT WAS ME STEVE
break some fucking skulls
I still contend that Steve was right in larger picture, but I can't also argue that I wouldn't lose my fucking mind seeing that.
>>82574950
Well, being a genius i'd at least have passing knowledge of association fallacy and acknowledge that Bucky was not a willing participant in the act. But Cap having knowledge and withheld it would have been hurtful and i would probably have punched him in the face but not gone completely buttmad about it. Its funny how the typical stoner flick is more realistic about bro conflict resolution.
>>82576097
>I still contend that Steve was right in larger picture
>movie hammers down how anyone can fucking be another Zemo if driven to the edge after losing someone in a mere "accident"
Jesus Christ anyone who thought Cap was right after this movie is a goddamn idiot. Pretty much everything everyone said that would happen if he went out of line happened and now the Avengers are in shambles with half of them being wanted fugitives because of him.
>>82574950
I would allow them to escort me off the set without incident and then I would get lunch and figure out how to get home.
>>82574950
Exactly what Tony did
Lie down and cry probably.
>>82576190
It's supposed to be debatable either way. If the Avengers didn't intervene in New York and DC, hundreds of thousands would have died, if not more. Ultron was partly Stark's fault so dunno how that argument goes down, and Crossbones going allahu ackbar while not ideal was better than him doing it in the middle of the street or succeeding in his mission and delivering a bio-weapon to whoever.
They kind of need something like SHIELD before WS but without Hydra to work with them in evacuating people before or during battles, though I don't think they're quite that well staffed yet either, the UN resolution is probably sort of supposed to be an attempt at that.
>>82574950
the same thing as Tony did. It wasn't smart, but when you're angry it's what you do. And if you wouldn't have snapped in his shoes, you ain't human.
>>8257495
The only thing that makes sense, Fuckem all to death
Well obviously because I am a rational and logical human being I would process the facts in a precise and controlled manner, determine that Bucky, being a victim of brainwashing, is without fault and compute that-
Ignore that last part. I am not a robot. Repeat, negative on the robot. Yessir I am a human 100%. I like icecream. See how human I am?
>>82574950
Cry a lot, hug Cap, wouldn't want to see Bucky for a long time. I'm not a murderer and it wasn't Bucky's fault.
>>82576190
Zemo's family died, that's sad. If the Avengers weren't there, everyone's family would've died. The entire fault of the Sokovia incident lies on Tony and Banner, they are the only ones who should've faced prosecution, not the people who tried to minimize the damage they caused.
I think I'd have been more angry at Cap than Bucky. Tony seemed to already dislike him though.
>>82574950
I would have asked who ordered the execution.
>>82576190
>anyone can fucking be another Zemo if driven to the edge
muh ONE BAD DAY (tm)
I wonder if the Batfleck movie will try to tackle that.
I think the better question (not in a make-a-movie sense but as a question to ask of anons) is what does he do when he gets away from the base?
My best friend is crippled. My other best friend thought he was protecting me by hiding information. I almost killed another man because he was my other best friend's best friend. Hundreds of people are dead. My squad's in prison, my body's broken, my parents are dead again. My parents are dead again. A thing I learned to live with has just been forced into my mind, and can never be removed.
Honestly I think I'd go home and just drink myself to sleep.
>>82574950
I would have probably broken down like a bitch and cried.
>>82576381
>Zemo's family died, that's sad. If the Avengers weren't there, everyone's family would've died. T
And the victims never see it that way, that was the point of Black Panther's character arc when he hear Zemo's story and saw how revenge had driven two allies to fight one another he gave up but Zemo didn't care as long as it meant the destruction of the Avengers. Two sides of the same coin.
>>82576489
Hell, that was the starting point for Tony's whole arc in the movie, too.
>>82576477
>what does he do when he gets away from the base?
Clings drunkenly to the shield while sobbing himself to sleep.
>>82576477
One would say I'd find a demon in a bottle.
>>82574950
Know that I'm acting on emotion, letting the villain is achieve his goal (which he's detailed to me), and then do it anyway.
>>82576489
It's true, it's not a one sided issue, but you can't stop saving lives because some people will get upset. You can't let that schoolbus of children die, Clark!
>>82576190
> oh no being a fugitive means i'm wrong
> so Capt is responsible for the team breaking up, not Zemo?
out of curiosity, in what state did you go to elementary school? i'll guess it wasnt in a state of the original 13 colonies
>>82576190
If you think about it... the one person Rodgers did manage to save in this movie, was Stark.
Let's say Cap sits out the whole thing, and that somehow Bucky gets captured alive.
Zemo still gets the information out of him, and a hell of a lot of people get killed anyway.
Now Zemo's not being followed, gets the video tape and sends it to Stark. Now Stark still wants to kill Bucky, and is willing to do anything to do it. Now he's the one breaking the law to kill Bucky and having to be taken down. (And fighting T'Challa over whose daddy to avenge with death)
>>82575157
Actually. He always had something of a hate boner for Cap.
He has respected Cap and he hasn't really been able to find faults in him. But that's part of the issue. Ever since he was growing up Cap overshadowed him and had his father's full attention unlike himself.
>>82575325
Cap:
>"No, Tony. that isn't irony at all. I can't believe that with all the A.I. you packed into your suit, you still couldn't figure out what 'irony' means, or apply it to real world situations"
>>82576190
>muh Accords
Go to bed, Ross.
Be slightly uncomfortable around Bucky for the rest of my life and that's it.
>>82576900
Pretty much this.
>>82574950
try to murder bucky the same way he killed my parents, by choking him with one hand and punching his face in with the other. If Cap got in the way, I wouldn't ignore him or hold back like he did in the movie. I would immediately disarm him and break his arms and legs so he wouldn't stop me. If all else fails, I would tank missile bucky, call the iron legion, or call hulkbuster to ensure Bucky dies painfully.
>>82576935
>owtheedge.jpeg
>>82576964
>implying you wouldn't do this if your parents got murdered
Are you a woman or something? Or do you just not care for your family?
>>82576541
>kill them all, Clark
>>82576976
Why would you murder someone for doing something they were forced to do?
>>82576976
I understand that there are bigger things at stake and if I attack my allies I'm playing into my foes hand.
Literally everything else in the movie is more important than the specifics of how Tony's 'rents bought it. He knows it's an obvious ploy and still bites anyway.
Steve was right to leave him there.
>>82576477
I'd like to think that he actually stays clean after this.
All the way through Infinity War, where hopefully Cap dies and then we can get that one panel where Tony discusses how he managed to stay sober through all of the hard times.
>>82577029
Because it would be my gut reaction to seeing my parents get brutally murdered in a tape. Don't tell me you wouldn't react the same way.
>>82577034
Cap is his ally, not Bucky. I'm not saying that Stark was in the right, but OP asked how I would react if I was Tony. I never said it was the right choice, but it would be my honest reaction. Besides if Tony actually killed Bucky, would Cap really be selfish enough to leave the Avengers when another threat comes by? The villains plan would have failed regardless of whether Tony actually got to kill Bucky.
>>82577091
>Don't tell me you wouldn't react the same way.
I wouldn't, I understand Tony's reaction but I wouldn't have done what he did. If I wanted let any anger out I'd just take it out on Zemo who was literally just behind a door watching and hoping I would fight my friend and his friend over something that wasn't their fault.
>>82577091
Shock doesn't work like that. You don't know if you'd fly into a rage, blanc or crumble. You just don't.
He might abandon Tony, who no longer has the team's support outside of Rhodes. Literally, the only avenger who could still plausibly be said to be on Tony's side at the end of the is Vision and in more of a 'happens to agree' sort of way. I'd put my money on Steve being the one to lead the charge when the time comes and Stark being the one who needs to rebuild bridges.
Also this>>82577127
>>82576935
+18, kiddo.
Begin blubbering like an idiot and ask Cap through my tears "why did you lie to meee?! I thought we we-were frieeends! Mommy, waaaah!"
>>82574950
Unfriend Bucky on facebook.
>>82577137
vision is also now doubting himself because of what happened with rhodey. its possible that he may begin to question his choices
>>82577193
I thought Vision was only questioning his ability to control the gem, as previously established in the movie, he's afraid of it, not his stance on the "Civil War" itself. Out of all the rumors before the movie, Vision exiling himself to space is the one I'm most surprised wasn't true.
>>82577193
Well maybe if he stopped trying to make a magic robot baby with Wanda for a few minutes, he could actually do things properly.
>>82574950
Oh, that sucks. We're going to talk about this after we take out zemo.
>>82577226
THICK
VIBRANIUM
COCK
>>82577226
Would YOU stop trying to have magical robot babies with Wanda in his place?
>>82576381
>The entire fault of the Sokovia incident lies on Wanda
Fixed
>>82575347
Caps life was a living hell in the 40s though. All he had was Bucky
>>82577241
>>82576900
>>82576914
On a 0/10 scale, how much do you hate your parents?
>>82575347
IT WAS ALL ME
>>82574982
But who do you fuck and marry?
>>82577258
You mean the Lagos incident from Civil War, right? Without Ultron, Wanda would have nothing to do in Sokovia.
>>82577253
Yes because goddamn that was the second most creepy relationship in the movie. (Beaten out with Cap and Carter. "Oh, you're almost as hot as your aunt was")
>>82577265
>You don't love your parents unless you kill an innocent man in an act of empty vengeance that won't bring them back
Nobody is saying they wouldn't be devastated, just that they wouldn't become murderers.
>>82577191
You're a monster
>>82577265
I don't hate them, but I'm not going to kill a guy who technically didn't even do it to "avenge" them. It wasn't even a "kill them or I kill you" type situation, he was literally brainwashed
It's like blaming Bruce Banner for the actions of the Hulk.
>>82577277
Marry Cap, fuck Bucky, kill Tony. Easy peasy.
>>82577306
You wouldn't have to kill them, but no emotional reaction whatsoever? Just saying, oh that sucks, I get it, and movie on? I don't think anyone could do that if they just saw someone they loved(especially their mommy) being brutally murdered.
>>82577334
Did Tony even see what Bucky actually did to his mom? I know we did but did Tony?
>>82577334
I would probably fly away at Mach 4 and cry under my bed until forever.
Tony's a shit and I hope his character dies in the next movie, but Cap should've absolutely told him sooner. like, waaay sooner
>>82577352
From the angle of the security camera he could see Bucky put one arm on the passenger side of the car and held it there for a while.
Shake Bucky's hand for doing a damn good job of getting rid of those damn starks
>>82577265
I'd be mad but I wouldn't murder Bucky, because the guy was brainwashed.
>>82577355
Waitaminute, how did Cap know anyway? Did SHIELD tell him? Why?
>>82577374
Get outta here Hank, you old coot.
>>82576438
This is the only sensible anwser
Probably try to murder the shit out of Zemo first, then maaaybe Bucky (losing his arm was getting off relatively light), and Cap at least deserves a punch in his perfect teeth and maybe worse if he tries to interfere, which he would.
>>82577296
I'm 90% sure that the only reason Carter was included was to make Cap and Bucky seem less gay.
>>82576438
Wow, yeah. Not even a throwaway "I'm gonna kill you and then I'm going after who gave the order" line. Weird.
>>82577091
congrats, you just took an online psychological competency exam. you shouldnt be around fire arms or construction equipment.
>>82577290
I mean "The entire fault of the Ultron incident lies on Wanda"
>>82577374
I've gotta say, Howard Stark taking his wife in a lone car, carrying high dangerous supersoldier formula, with no guards or anything.
That was a goddamn boneheaded move.
>>82577265
Benign. Benign and a half.
Probably dissolve into tears and blubber-yell at Steve for a while. I might try to get a punch in for not telling me if he get's close enough.
Start wailing on Cap. Fuck Bucky, he was just used as a tool, but I would feel betrayed by Cap for not telling. Then try to break down the door and unibeam Zemo.
>>82577410
He was literally seeing red, even his HUD changed colour to imply this. All he was seeing in that moment was the guy who crushed his dad's faces and choked his mom.
was there are reason why tony was never gonna see his parents again. if i remember right his mom said it will be the last time he will talk to them or some shit.
>>82574950
I'm too much of a pussy to immediately try to kill someone so there's that. Probably just cry.
>>82577427
I really don't see how that can be the case. Because of the bad future vision she gave Tony?
>>82577493
Yes, because they were killed/died. He was virtual flashbacking.
>>82577492
>He was literally seeing red, even his HUD changed colour to imply this.
His HUD goes red in battle scenes all the time. First time I noticed that was The Avengers.
>>82574950
id kill cap
i really wish he hadnt pulled his punches and just kill Cap with an energy blast like you easily can do.
>>82577492
He was cognicent enough to plead with Cap and to bants with his AI, though.
Tony undid all of his arguement in the final fight.
he became a threat, he would have killed anyone to get to bucky in those minutes, he proved that he is only a hero because it is convenient to him, and he discards it with ease when it isn't.
also Zemo's plan, while incredibly effective, was almost entirely reliant on the situation at hand that he had no control over (Accords) also it was incredibly complicated for a plan that boiled down to "show this guy a video".
>>82577493
It was a 'fake' flashback. Tony made his virtual mom say that, because he wished he'd have known. Because if he had known, he would have told his dad irl that he loved him. But he never did, so that's why he's roleplaying that scenario later in life.
>>82577523
yea that made him seem like a monster, that he was mentally together enough to plead with Cap to let him kill his best friend.
the entire thing made tony look Pathetic and Evil.
>>82577521
There are some really salty people about this, huh? I don't think he could kill Cap like it was nothing as some people are implying even if he wanted. Especially if that armor was the same one in which Ant-Man earlier disabled the heavy weapons system, which seems to be the case because Tony didn't even try to use missiles and shit. Cap also got repulsor blasted on the gut point blank and it didn't do much.
>>82577540
Hell, if he'd explained why he wanted the info to the Hydra guy, he'd have probably gone along with it, and Zemo would never have had to get his hands dirty.
>>82577521
Tony isn't an ice cold killer, we know he could have killed cap several times but he was angry with cap but not enough to want to kill him
Tony was just a big dumbass in this movie all around.
If I were in his shoes, I would've questioned the black lady at the beginning to see if she was an agent of H.Y.D.R.A. and tried to see if her supposedly dead son really was dead or not.
Dude was too motivated by "MUH FEELS" in this movie and really bit everyone on the ass in the long run.
Maybe he was really hitting the bottle hard in private, hence his really stupid actions. Maybe that's also why Thunderbolt was able to easily manipulate Stark too since he had cold evidence of Stark boozing up in private.
>>82577091
> The villains plan would have failed
But did it?
>>82577265
Fairly ambivalent about my parents, but 25 years later, someone trying to trigger me with their snuff film is just going to make me angry, not violent against a guy who has been demonstrated to be mentally incapable of controlling his own actions.
the entire theme of the movie is that the Victims don't care who's fault it is that their loved ones are dead, and some of them will do anything to get a feeling of revenge.
Tony became another 'victim' on seeing his parents die, but failed to learn from what was going on with all the other people in the movie.
only Black Panther realized the folly of it, and he's the one who lost someone just recently.
the entire ending makes Tony look like a psychopath, he feels nothing that he tried to kill Bucky so hard, he feels justified in it, he goes home and continues on with his life.
>>82577621
Oh no, a person acting on the emotions. How horrifying.
It's not logical, but that shit happens all the time. Dude was just trying to keep the team he started together, but his "friend" was doing everything in his power to drive a wedge straight down the middle.
It's easy to look at a problem from the outside and see how it can be fixed, but when you're in the thick of it, the answers aren't so clear.
>>82577642
Seeing as how half of his friends are fugitives and also hate him, I don't think he's just continuing with his life. There's only 2 and a half Avengers left. I guess he might have Spidey on speed dial to round out the numbers.
>>82577621
>an agent of H.Y.D.R.A.
hydra are nazis they don't believe in interacting with minorities (race mixing) so they'd never use a black women.
>>82577726
Red Skull was pretty clear he didn't believe in the Nazis ideals in First Avenger and was only using them for their resources.
>>82577710
I love how Tony rags on Steve for being so irresponsible and thoughtless for bringing Clint into it, when he picked up a high-schooler he literally found on youtube.
>>82577694
You can act on your emotions without acting like a moron with a clouded judgment.
That's why the entire conflict of the film solely rests on Stark's hands letting that woman's questionable sob story get to his head.
How exactly did she know where to meet him after the presentation? And her response seemed awfully subdued for someone who supposedly lost their son.
At least when a similar scenario happened in Rob Zombie's Halloween 2, you really felt like Linda's dad was genuinely hurt by his baby girl's demise by the crazy hobo in the William Shatner mask. The black lady in this film, however, just rang a little hollow for me.
>>82577694
The team that Nick Fury created and of which he was the only one trying to split apart because most of them didn't agree with him?
A lot of people are saying that because Bucky was brainwashed, Tony should of been more level headed. But I think that in a lot of situations it doesn't matter the circumstance of how your loved one died but just who did it. In that moment, all you can think of is "They were taken from you" and who did it. Not why or the reason behind it.
>>82577710
he really only has Rhody, Vision barely counts.
Black Panther and Black Widow both basically realized the whole thing was wrong.
>>82577747
And about how they rescued Wanda. "She didn't want to be saved!"
Given she pretty much leapt at the chance, to the extent of crushing Vision down several floors, and Clint couldn't have done a thing to make her go if she didn't want to... Tony's a fool.
Of course, so was Wilson, but that's another problem.
>>82577752
speaking of Fury, where the fuck was he?
I'm sure he might've been able to get some more clout on the anti-Accords side...if that was the side he supported.
>>82577786
He has to pretend he's dead to weed out Hydra, doesn't he?
>>82577786
being the Ex-Leader of SHIELD after what happened to it is not a very stable position on the world front, no one would listen to him because he ran an organization that was literally comprimised from the beginning.
>>82577800
He can be the new Warmachine.
It's just a black tony stark, nobody would notice the difference.
>>82577800
Yeah, I suppose that makes sense.
Its been a while since i've seen "The Winter Soldier", though I do recall that Steve probably did learn of the death of Tony's parents in that film from the Nazi-turned-AI guy.
>>82577747
He picked up a highschooler who stopped a car with his bare hands. He himself noted that had to be like....a lot of weight. I don't remember the exact number. But still. And Pete handled himself fine. He got seriously hit like, once at the end.
>>82577750
I was going to say she didn't know, but she did have that pic of him on hand. But the Sokovia event happened months ago, so she's probably grieved enough.
>>82577752
I think after working with people in do-or-die situations, you'd grow to be slightly attached.
>>82577773
I'd say Vision counts. He sided with him in the beginning and stayed at the Avengers base. I don't think BP was ever on his side, just after Bucky. Widow betrays her team AGAIN, more news at eleven.
>>82576774
Tony:
>"Fuck you, Steve."
>>82577834
This
Spidey has actually comic book accurate powerlevels here...as in he is stronger than majority of Avengers and so agile that he can take them on solo
And that's only unexperienced Spidey
This movie would've been over if Steve and Sam had just called Tony when they had Bucky in the vice and first heard about the other winter soldiers.
How the fuck can you analyze a fight pattern from someone running on pure instinct and rage?
That's bullshit, Stark.
>>82577834
>I was going to say she didn't know, but she did have that pic of him on hand. But the Sokovia event happened months ago, so she's probably grieved enough.
Of course she had the pic. Now if she really was a member of H.Y.D.R.A., perhaps her son isn't really a son and is just a random pic of some random black guy picked out of a hat or something.
I mean, if some weird MoFos could theorize about "tragedy actors" on their precious Prison Planet/Alex Jones nonsense, so could I in a work of fiction.
Of course, i'm probably really stretching myself thin, but I think that scenario could've been executed much better. Same goes for what kicks off the big conflict in "Batman V Superman" as well.
Both movies' main conflict have really poorly executed trigger moments IMO.
>>82577771
it's called being able to handle your emotions like an adult, Tony. See how Black Panther handled Zemo? yeah, that's how grown ups act (plus, his actions were more justified and his father died much more recently.
>>82577375
Rape Bucky.
Establish dominance.
He'll even agree to it, the madman.
>>82577877
Cap wasn't fighting with instinct. He wasn't even mad.
He's had military training, stuff that's been around for years. Scan his fight patterns, then the suit reacts accordingly. Dude got taken down in 2 minutes. And that was hand to hand. If Tony flew above him and carpet bombed his ass, shit wouldn't be so bueno.
>>82577877
>he punches predominantly with his right arm
>before he does so, his shoulders move in a specific way
>his shoulders just moved
>block right
Something like that
>>82574950
slapped cap and go "MY PARENTS ARE DEAAAAAAAAAAAAD"
>>82577191
YOU'RE AS COLD AS ICE
>>82574950
thank steve for finally revealing the truth and bringing closure to me
team up with him to take down zemo
>>82574950
Beat Bucky's body off of his head. Then kill Zemo.
>>82578029
Steve was forced to admit the truth, and Zemo was the one who revealed it. Steve could have brought closure for Tony 2 years ago when he found out.
>>82578002
> Cap says, "mine too"
> Bucky, "ditto"
> Black Panther pops out of the shadows, "Did someone say dead parents?"
> Batman, "Did you kill Martha, too, Bucky?"
> Sups, "No, she's still ali---oh, you meant YOUR mom. my bad"
>>82578075
I did always think it weird that batman and supes moms have the same name.
>>82574950
Perfect time or a quip about agent carter involving necrophilia.
>>82577953
Tony couldn't fly, his thrusters were damaged, if that was the same suit he wore in the airport fight, he couldn't carpet bomb either, Ant-Man disabled that. Also, getting knocked down in two minutes is what Tony did for half the movie.
>>82578109
DC characters have names? I thought they were all the thing they are + man or woman and her name was Mom Woman
>>82578075
Spiderman swings in as well.
Thor turns up, but doesn't know why, Odin just told him to go join them.
>>82576301
>Ultron was partly Stark's fault so dunno how that argument goes down
Banner and Stark were fucking with the sceptre as private citizens, the accord wouldn't have stopped that.
>>82574950
Either just go 'Fuck you both, you can deal with this shit by yourself' and fly home to get smashed, or break down the window and punch Zemo's fucking face in for being a smug dickface and thinking he had the right to make me watch that shit.
I definitely wouldn't be able to ever work with or even really talk to Bucky or Cap again after that, even when logically understanding that Bucky wasn't at fault.
I'd be angrier at Cap than Bucky though, for not telling me. Fuck you Cap, keeping secrets like this doesn't help anyone.
What were the blue blood bags?
Why did the Starks have them?
Why doesn't Pym like the Starks?
>>82578069
he was too busy fucking shit up old school
>>82576438
...HYDRA? Just like Steve said? And even then it wouldn't matter because the one who did it was literally right beside them.
>>82578289
GH.325
>>82578289
Super Solider Serum.
Stark was literally one of the men who was in the room when Steve was enhanced.
Stark fucked over Pym.
>>82578289
Wasn't Howard involved that business at the start of Ant Man?
>>82578144
They were two Avengers who were fucking with technology that had been confiscated by the Avengers, they were doing it with Avengers facilities, equipment, and funds, they were doing it in such a way as to deliberately curtail their enterprise from other Avengers even though it had everything to do with the Avengers both in its end goal and its means of reaching that goal, and so on.
It has everything to do with the Avengers. If even just a slight degree of regulation or oversight could not have detected the Ultron project and put it under scrutiny, then it would have been either because outside involvement in the Avengers was negligible or because someone wasn't doing their job, or simply because Tony and Banner went much, much further in hiding their activities from prying eyes.
>>82574950
Not lose my shit when it was obvious that's what the bad guy wants?
Seriously If Tony just bottled it up until Zemo was captured/killed and THEN lost his shit it would have been fine
But doing that isn't what Tony does
Oversight is fine, they probably DO need that, however, the problems with this were instantly pointed out by Steve and he was proven right in days.
Agenda's, its clear Ross has one, and has a huge hateboner for the Avengers in general, and if not him, some fuckwad on the council can utterly ruin their shit and curtail them from helping people.
it was clear that the Accords were doomsday for the Avengers, now to save people in a horrible situation they'd have to ask a panel of people who have to assemble if its alright, and if any object this shit can devolve into days of waiting, and if they act anyways they are now "criminals"
also LOL at putting the U.N in control of a first response team, my god, no one involved has read a history book eh?
>>82578377
To be fair, Tony seemed to be bottling up throughout the whole movie. Seeing the footage just made him snap.
>>82577726
They obviously had racially questionable members in Winter Soldier, dude.
Both the Senator and Sidwell were clearly less than strictly Aryan.
>>82577382
He probably forced his way into being given a through de-brief on the Winter Soldier sometime between Cap2 and Civil War. And with SHIELD mostly destroyed cap got the info from black widow.
>>82578377
it didn't matter, all that matters to zemo is that the damage is done, and it is, he won, handidly.
not that he took any joy in it, he still looked like a broken man, his victory meant nothing to him, which is probably why Panther recoiled from it all.
Tony is simply the weakest link, he has low moral fiber and low moral will, when presented with a horrific scene, his parents dying by someone in the rooms hand, he acted like a child.
not a hero, he simply isn't one, he's a guilt ridden child, ALL of his heroics are built on some form of guilt for some form of action.
I would never trust or be friends with tony again, not for him trying to kill Bucky (if I were Cap I mean) but because its clear he only does anything on emotional guilt and anger.
>>82578484
man
tony should an hero
>>82578484
>not that he took any joy in it, he still looked like a broken man, his victory meant nothing to him, which is probably why Panther recoiled from it all.
Unless that was a ruse as well, and he only played up the remorse and his death wish to get BP to take him in alive instead of killing him.
>>82578603
no he was done, its why he tried to kill himself and deleted his wifes final message to him.
it was clear that was as deep as his plot got, the movie makes it very crystal.
he fully assumed that Panther would do as he would do, and that would be to destroy those who have destroyed your own.
>>82578484
I feel like you, along with a lot of other people are throwing Tony under a bus. Admittedly, he wasn't a super hero when he started out. Just trying to personally right his own wrongs. That was one of the main reasons he wasn't considered for a spot on the Avengers initially.
But after a certain point, I think he realized he had this great thing and a great opportunity to make penance on his past actions as a war profiteer with the Iron Legion and Ultron. That was just a very unfortunate move.
Then, during Civil War, he was just trying to keep the team together. And to be fair, even if Bucky was being controlled into attacking people throughout history, he still did it. He should come in for psych eval.
Not to mention, Bucky fucking killed his parents. He never knew, and Cap did know and didn't tell him. He felt betratyed over and over in this movie.
>>82578683
it was clear that for whatever reason the powers that be would much rather kill Bucky than have him alive.
>>82578758
They were evaluating him in the first place. Zemo just pulled le trick on them. Pretty easily too.
>>82574950
Tony being pissed was understandable. However Cap was right, it wasn't really Bucky's fault, the guy was mind controlled to do so. It wasn't his own free will.
>>82578790
regardless he wasn't ever going to get a lawyer or a trial or anyone to listen to what happened to him or give a shit, he'd go in the raft forever and never come out.
which is the same treatment they gave the hero's, some "great debt is owed to you" shit.
even Clint a man who gave almost his entirely life in service to his country, thrown right in.
>>82575031
This. Think he was holding back on Cap. Because if he really wanted to, I doubt Cap would stand any real chance in a fight. I mean Tony is a fucking walking arsenal against a somewhat super powered guy with a shield.
>>82574950
I actually don't think I'd blame Bucky at all. Assuming Stark knows that once Bucky's in Winter Soldier mode there's really nothing he can do. Better to be mad at the ones that ordered him to do it.
>>82575157
Well, Bucky did take his friend away. And for a guy who makes more enemies than he shits, not hard to be mad when you loose one.
>>82574950
I would snatch every motherfucker birthday.
>>82574950
probably the same thing tony did, though I might've stopped a bit sooner once I noticed that Zemo left
Like other anons said, probably cry. Maybe even run away
>>82575211
This man has his priorities straight. Old man stark would have wanted you to hit that.
>>82579201
>Iron Man just runs away crying while covering his face
>>82577313
You are the only one who understands with that comic.
>>82579278
>ABLUBLUBLU
>>82576438
Cap was yelling that Bucky was under control of Hydra.
Tony responded with "Don't care. He killed my mom."
>>82577253
I'd love if his answer to someone asking HOW he made magical robot babies with Wanda was:
>"I'm not entirely sure."
People, remember that the guy you saw kill your parents is standing right next you, who you thought "maybe he's not a bad guy after all".
And your best friend, who you had a recent argument with, knew half of this and never told you.
>>82579761
>>82579721
People act like Tony wasn't aware Bucky was under mind-control, or that he somehow stupidly forgot. He knew, he just didn't care. That doesn't make him stupid like some anons claim, it makes him villainous.
>>82577191
You sick fuck.
>>82577822
>He can be the new Warmachine.
Nah, We're just gonna have Rhodey in an electronic wheelchair that re-arranges around him into a Warmachine suit.
>>82578141
>"Wait, what about Nat-"
>"THEY TOOK EVERYTHING FROM ME IN THE RED ROOM, EVERYTHING!"
>>82579781
Well he doesn't have genitals...at least I don't think he does, so that is a pretty valid answer.
>>82574950
considering Tony didn;t even know Bucky was brainwashed, he assumed Bucky did it of his own free will. I would assume the same in that scenario.
I'd want to rip his head off too
>>82575134
you've clearly never had someone you know die have you. You rage for more than 15 minutes whether you do it sooner or later
>>82575460
Same the people who state other wise are lying or were probably molested when they were young
>>82574950
My parents are both dead
So I would have killed Bucky
Bucky and captain communist are both terrible human beings
>>82579922
>he doesn't know about THICK VIBRANIUM COCK
I pity you
>>82578484
>when presented with a horrific scene, his parents dying by someone in the rooms hand, he acted like a child.
Because everyone knows how you'd react to a situation like that.
>The person you loved the most in the world gets murdered by a brain washed assassin who knows he is a step away from reverting.
>Oh, get over it.
>>82574950
>Captain America civil war theread
> Depp discussions about morality and freedom vs security
>BvS thread
>Evans posting, DC RULES BVS SUPERMAN SuX XD
What happened?
>>82579975
He knew, but he didn't care at that point. >>82579721
>Everyone saying they'd act level headed or wouldn't be enraged.
Please, if anyone one of you (who had a good relationship with your parents) just saw a video of said parents being killed, with the killer in the room, you'd all act just like Tony. Hell, I'd act like that if someone killed my pets.
And his anger was also towards Cap keeping it a secret for 2 years, which Cap later acknowledges as a major fuck up. Everyone in this movie let their emotions rule them.
>>82580033
BvS was only good for memes.
>>82578843
Captain had no right to gang up on Tony on a 2v1
Captain had no right to almost kill Tony for reacting the way he did
Captain is a terrible friend
>>82578844
>"great debt is owed to you"
Police officer shoots a thug. He does his job and great asset to country.
Same police officer snaps one day and kills whole family. We're owed a lot to him and should not be in jail..
Face it, what Clint and company did was illegal as all fuck, endangered hundreds in what amounted to a superhero wrestling match, and outright broke arms and legs to defend a country killing brainwashed asshole who might very well be impossible to unbrainwash.
>>82580023
You forget that Vision is in fact anandroid, that THICK VIBRAIUM COCK ans you so eloquently put it is nothing more than an overpriced metal dildo, also no DNA because, again, android.
>>82578484
>he acted like a child.
Have in mind that the entire fucking problem in the movie amounted to one man acting on his own whims to protect a single person that's been nothing but a danger to every single person in the world for the last 60 years.
Even when given a chance to give in and let the world deal with the assassin, while trying your darnedest to explain that, hey, this guy is brainwashed. Try and find the proof, try and reason and investigate as there's more than enough proof to go around.
Instead, Captain manchild's actions dragged and crippled a number of his friends because he can't let go of that one guy he knew a long time ago.
>>82580064
I feel people are ragging on Tony, but forget Cap had his share of screw ups too. Both had a point, both messed up. I guess since Tony is known for this it's easier to target him but it's not like Cap is innocent either.
>>82580207
This.
The entirety of Captain America and co's positions in the movie amount to "WAAAAH the government too slow! Better act on my own!"
Sounds like every goddamned hillbilly who shoots a police officer because his Sovereign Citizen papers don't mean shit.
>>82580249
They are forgetting the fact that Cap conveniently forgot to tell Tony the truth when he could, and reduce the damage. Hid it for a long ass time and didn't tell Tony a thing. And once again, his lack of honesty fucked over everyone but him and his Bucky.
How is that for trust?
>>82580249
>>82580337
Caps biggest flaw is holding on to the past too much. Bucky is now his "past" the last thing from it. He doesn't care about anything other than him when push comes to shove.
>>82574950
This is a really loaded question to ask on Mother's Day.
>>82577784
>Given she pretty much leapt at the chance, to the extent of crushing Vision down several floors
Except she clearly felt conflicted, only turning on Vision when Clint was in trouble.
>>82580312
>The entirety of Captain America and co's positions in the movie amount to "WAAAAH the government too slow! Better act on my own!"
And they were right. The government were the ones who let Zemo alone with the Winter Soldier. When evidence came to light that Bucky was innocent Ross just said he didn't care.
>>82580207
>Even when given a chance to give in and let the world deal with the assassin, while trying your darnedest to explain that, hey, this guy is brainwashed.
He did do that though. In Bucharest they sent guys in to kill Bucky and Cap stopped that.
>Try and find the proof, try and reason and investigate as there's more than enough proof to go around.
And when proof was found the "authorities" just ignored it.
>Instead, Captain manchild's actions dragged and crippled
Tony ordered the shot.
>>82580962
And Falcon dodged the beam.
So dod you people miss the part where the authorities laughed off the possibility of Bucky getting a lawyer? The part where there wasn't an order to detain, but rather an order to kill on sight? The part where Tony had evidence that Bucky was framed and Ross blew it off?
How the fuck van you faukt Cap for not listening to the authorities when they have thoroughly proven they aren't worth listening to?
>b-but one man can't just decide on his own
Yeah, and what was Ross doing? Talking about accountability and being accountable aren't the same thing.
>>82580962
Rhodey ordered the shot not Tony
>>82577540
>also Zemo's plan, while incredibly effective, was almost entirely reliant on the situation at hand that he had no control over (Accords)
The Accords helped but Zemo was counting on the video destroying the Avengers. He would have assumed that Tony would snap just as he did no matter what the situation.
>also it was incredibly complicated for a plan that boiled down to "show this guy a video".
It was complicated because getting to the video was hard. He wanted to do it the easy way at first with the Soviet Hydra guy.
>>82574950
Punch cap
Murder bucky
Marry panther
People keep saying how they'd deal with this in a rational way, but it's been shown that Tony is emotional and makes really impulsive decisions.
>Iron Man 3
>after a friend gets injured in a terrorist attack, challenges them to come after him instead, and they do
>Age of Ultron
>after seeing a vision of his friends being killed, decides to make Ultron behind everyone's backs
>>82580962
>>82581092
>Bucky was innocent Ross just said he didn't care. He was framed.
For what? For the bombing of the UN? What about the other hundred hits he made during the years, and even a few years back when he downright fucking killed Nick Fury according to records, or the other hundred other actual hits like killing Tony's parents?
Bucky's frame up in the UN Bombing was only one in the very long shit list that we/re supposed to ignore because that ONE time, was a frame up.
>>82581296
He was being controlled m8
>>82576381
Tony and banner acting in the best interests of humanity with no supervision using alien tech confiscated during an international military incident they participated in without sanction. It wasn't two guys who made a fucking potato gun with shit they got at radio shack
>>82574950
>he was mind controlled!
ok... but he still did those actions. I can see people siding with Cap but Tony was right. Should Cap really be allowed to go to any country he wants and enact his will? What if an evil guy is democratically elected in some third world country. Should Cap just be allowed to overthrow him?
Also, who exactly is paying for all the Avengers hi tech stuff? is it really all from Stark?
>>82581346
Not admissible. It's been done before and it doesn't work.
It's a dangerous precedent. You brainwash someone, change them to their core, they kill people, and they are not liable to respond for those crimes because they were trained for so long to obey orders?
Best case scenario, they send you through rehabilitation. Most likely scenario you are treated as a criminal anyway because brain washing exists, and it's been used for pretty much every death cult and armies that people hate.
It's not an excuse.
>>82580962
Have in mind that this proof had little if at all to do with the fact that this man was brainwashed, and when it was delivered it happened after what amounted to treason, about a matter that Cap had all the time in the world to bring up since the time of Winter Soldier.
It's precisely this kind of irresponsibility which made him initiate the actions which broke down the team.
>>82581539
>Should Cap really be allowed to go to any country he wants and enact his will? What if an evil guy is democratically elected in some third world country. Should Cap just be allowed to overthrow him?
Hurr and what if the UN voted that every country has to sacrifice a thousand lives to Cthulhu every day. Should we let them?
>>82581555
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatism_(law)
Kill yourself
>>82578360
If they didn't have the tech, Hydra infested SHIELD would have it and it would have gone a million times worse.
>>82581577
If one person fucks over the law because of his own personal feelings of the matter, should we let him? What if he is not educated enough to know the full magnitude of his actions?
Tell you what, Cap goes to that third world country and enacts an epic overthrow that kicks that son of a bitch off his throne.
Then what?
Does he have the technology, the resources, and the know how to place a more goody goody guy on the throne? Does he have the muscle power to punch the shit out of everyone who actually wanted that person to be in seat in the first, place, and who might have actually made a good point to make the country better?
Does he have the know how to stop a civil war?
Does he understand, with his New Yorkian values and standards of living, what this other country wants or needs?
What if he was completely fucking wrong and only just destabilizes the country, and has absolutely no cushion or resources to fall back into?
>UN voted that every country has to sacrifice a thousand lives to Cthulhu every day.
I know. You are a retard.
>>82576477
Don't forget, Pepper left him and even the government spooks are mad at him for the airport battle.
>>82574969
lol
>>82576343
>how do you do fellow meat people
>let's all get influenza
>>82581613
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicidal_sleepwalking
Not admissible.
>>82581555
>Have in mind that this proof had little if at all to do with the fact that this man was brainwashed,
It has a lot to do with whether was still active, which is carries a lot of implications about whether he's still a killer without the brainwashing active. I mean, at the time Hydra was down so if he was bombing places without anyone forcing him to that would obviously be a whole different scenario.
>and when it was delivered it happened after what amounted to treason
What is this supposed to mean to me? When the government is clearly in the wrong and they declare anyone who opposes them treasonous, is that supposed to sway me? This entire argument simply that once you have the authority to declare someone a traitor you can never be wrong. Because if you are anyone who points it out or tries to stop you is a traitor and thus should not be listened to.
> about a matter that Cap had all the time in the world to bring up since the time of Winter Soldier.
What exactly did he need tonbring up? Hydra's files were leaked; it's not like the Winter Soldier was a secret anymore.
>It's precisely this kind of irresponsibility which made him initiate the actions which broke down the team.
The irresponsibility falls squarely on the guys who decided to kill a man with no due process.
>>82581613
Yeah, and over 90 percent of those cases end up guilty or on the shrink anyway. Hence:
>they send you through rehabilitation.
>>82581834
>At his trial in February 1961 at the Essex Assizes he pleaded not guilty on the basis of being asleep at the time he committed the offence and was acquitted.[2][3]
The very first example on that page isna guy who was acquitted you dumb fuck
>>82581654
The problem in this case wasn't primarily that they had Stark's bleeding edge tech or that they were fiddling around with extraterrestrial powers far beyond their understanding or that they were developing an artificial intelligence with the ambition of having it manage all of global security, it was that they could do whatever the fuck they wanted with those things and the only people who were around to hold them accountable were their own teammates, who weren't even aware of what was going on until after the catastrophe was a fact.
>>82582059
>Let's ignore all most others, which involve guilty or insanity.
>>82581948
>Yeah, and over 90 percent
Yes, and? It's still a viable defense. For all we know 90% of the time the defendant was just lying.
>>82582134
see
>>82582161
Either way none of those guys found guilty were sentenced to being shot dead in the street.
>>82582134
It worked as a defence in Jessica Jones. Because this level of mind control really doesn't have a real world equivalent. There's 70 years worth of files and evidence to prove exactly what's been done to Bucky. He wasn't merely influenced, he was outright controlled.
>>82578034
Why kill Zemo? He showed you the truth.
>>82582134
The first two on that page are acquittals. What about the first guilty?
> Prosecutors testified that Falater's actions were "too complex" to have been carried out while sleepwalking. In June 1999, Scott Falater was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.[5]
Guilty not because sleepwalking isn't a viable defense, but because they thought he was lying about sleepwalking. Do we need to keep going down the list?
>>82576477
hopefully he goes full on raging alcoholic and loses everything he has, so when IW comes, he's a super mess and everyone tries to help him get his shit together, then everyone dies like in the visions, that way he can get the new avengers to revive the old avengers and fight Thanos, all while struggling with quitting alcohol Cold Turkey
>>82581930
>When the government is clearly in the wrong and they declare
How exactly are they in the wrong? The Winter Soldier has done enough during it's lifetime to warrant his killing justified regardless of the circumstances surrounding the murders.
We're talking about a mentally disabled person who none the less, during his more lucid moments, staged an escape, destruction and harm of several agents sent there to stop him.
Before everyone knew he was brainwashed to shit, they had little to no reason to believe he wasn't dangerous. By the time they knew, he had essentially escaped custody and sent the whole thing into a clusterfuck.
>>82582501
>How exactly are they in the wrong?
-Putting a kill order on a guy they knew to be brainwashed
-imprisoning multiple people with no legal council or due process
-no one is allowed to get invokved in a conflict they have emotional investment in, oh unless you happen to be a king, then by all means do what you want
-oh shit, you have evidence this whole conflict was orchestrated by an outside party? Sorry, don't care
-allowing some rando to waltz in alone and use Bucky's trigger words
If they had just:
-sent War Machine or someone impartial to arrest Bucky first instead of Black vengeance and the German Death Squad
-not let some unknown guy alone in Bucky's cell
Those two things and the entire movie's conflict would be avoided. Bonus points for not keeping Wanda hostage.
>>82581930
Put it into perspective.
Who Cap betrayed here was not a big bad government. What he did was prove without a shadow of doubt that he and his kind are above the consequences and the world has to put up with whatever measures he put to protect this one man.
Here's a question.
Does defending one man who's lived in a gray area his whole life justify all the damage caused by this protracted fighting?
Did it solve anything, in the end?
Let's say Ross was in the wrong, although he was justified in the military point of view. Now let's look at all other agents and people that are not Ross.
Tony himself got pretty chill about the Winter Soldier once he understood he was framed, at least before he learnt the Winter Soldier killed his parents.
The military is just one part of what makes a government, and is more often than not very divisive.
What about the other people who could and would have agreed to the insanity plea? The whole of the government is not an immutable beast that exists away from the rest.
It can be changed, they can agree with Cap, but Cap took the route that proved them all right about him being outside the law, where Cap has unnecessarily isolated himself from a system that would:
>>82581613
Made Bucky non guilty.
>>82582720
>Putting a kill order on a guy they knew to be brainwashed.
Brainwashed AND dangerous. You wouldn't let a Schizo waving a gun just because he is a Schizo. We're talking here about a man who fights armies here, and the closest thing you have to stopping him, dead or alive, is guys with guns.
>imprisoning multiple people with no legal council or due process
Citation needed. It's essentially been a single day since most of them got imprisoned. What makes you think there is not an army of lawyers on the side defending them?
>no one is allowed to get invokved in a conflict they have emotional investment in.
No one is allowed, plain and simple. What Tony did was wrong. What Panther did was wrong. What Cap did was wrong. What Zemo did was wrong.
But Cap and Zemo, above all others, are the worst of them all as they don't even bother to take other people's feelings into account.
>Oh shit, you have evidence this whole conflict was orchestrated by an outside party?
Tony Panther actively went against those kill orders, right? What makes you think they would be the only ones.
>Not let some unknown guy alone in Bucky's cell.
You're not giving Zemo enough credit.
>>82582892
>Tony and Panther actively went against those kill orders, right?
I mean, before Tony got triggered, at least.
>>82582892
>Brainwashed AND dangerous. You wouldn't let a Schizo waving a gun just because he is a Schizo.
Did you not read the bottom of my post when I said they could have sent War Machine in first and it would have been a nonissue? Cap already proved he can be detained without being killed. How is this even an argument?
>Citation needed.
Early in the movie they laugh off the idea of Bucky getting a lawyer.
>It's essentially been a single day since most of them got imprisoned. What makes you think there is not an army of lawyers on the side defending them?
The fact that not a single one is seen? It doesn't take a day for your lawyer to show up, even if they have a public defender or some shit he should be there. Also afaik the Raft is a prison, not a holding facility or jail which implies they were already found guilty.
>No one is allowed, plain and simple. What Tony did was wrong. What Panther did was wrong. What Cap did was wrong. What Zemo did was wrong.
I would agree with this except Cap did it to save lives. If Bucky was being arrested fairly Cap interfering with that would be wrong. But fuck you if the cops show up shooting to kill you shoot back, fuck their badges.
>But Cap and Zemo, above all others, are the worst of them all as they don't even bother to take other people's feelings into account.
I don't see how you can say that about Cap man, in some scenes he's clearly the only one taking others' feelings into account.
>Tony Panther actively went against those kill orders, right?
And so did Cap. So what's the problem?
>You're not giving Zemo enough credit.
You're giving the security they had there way too much credit.
Again:
-send someone neutral to arrest Bucky rather than kill him
-have a second guard near Bucky's cell, at least close enough to respond to the blackout in a reasonable time
That's all it would have taken.
>>82574950
>>82583218
Even if Batman won't kill the Joker, it kind of amazes me that no one else just steps forth and does it instead. With or without the law on their side.
