So I had a discussion with a friend who is a huge fan of cape comics. I told him that i'm not a fan of cape comics and prefer non-cape comics and manga for a few reasons, those being.
1. The stories tend to be convoluted and not self contained. You don't just read issues of one series but you have to read several other series from the past or that are currently ongoing to get references and story elements
2. The fact that nobody actually dies or stays dead ruins all sense of tension and takes away the impact of deaths and cheapens them
He told me that I was just exposed to bad comics. Is it true that a majority of cope comics aren't like this? What should I try reading to change my mind?
Most capes are what you're describing but some times a small jewel pops up and capefags don't read it because it's good.
>>82518684
>I am unable to read a story after I've read the wikipedia page
Goddamn, you have some high tier autism
>>82518684
Most superhero comics are what you described. Even stories that are mostly self-contained will have some references to past events or have characters appear and just expect you to know who they are.
>>82518684
>doesn't read cape comics
>believes his opinions are right
weebs, folks
>>82518817
Good storytelling doesn't require you to browse wikipedia.
>>82518768
See I just don't want to be dismissive and automatically assume my friend just has a personal bias in his taste.
We recently finished the Berserk anime and he absolutely hated the ending. He said it was poorly done and bad writing for the plot to take such a sudden shift. I asked him if he felt like it was poorly done or if he just personally didn't like what happened and he said the former.
I think he just doesn't want to get out of his comfort zone storytelling wise.
>>82518835
I wouldn't consider myself a weeb. I do watch anime and read manga but I wouldn't say my tastes coincide with that of weeb culture.
>>82518684
Well the pic you posted is probably one of the worst offenders. Xmen is like 40 years of teenage relationship days of our lives drama.
I got into comics via the Prophet reboot and a few stand alone superman stories (red son and whatever happened to the man of tomorrow). The continuity and interwoven nature of comics is a big liability for first time readers, and can definitely be offputting. I'm a huge suckered for wiki surfing so it's less of an issue for me, but for you I'd say try a few other world's or one shots which give the essence of a character, and see if they hook you. If so, then try to wade into their latest stuff and cast around to understand references on the internet.
>>82518684
Honestly, the stigma around comicbooks being convoluted are such bullshit. Sure, if you are talking about Batman's history as a whole starting from the 60's up until now of course it's going to be hard to summarize.
But strictly speaking OP, name the specific cape series/runs you've read that made you form your opinions.Or have you not read any you fucking casual?
>>82518684
>The stories tend to be convoluted and not self contained. You don't just read issues of one series but you have to read several other series from the past or that are currently ongoing to get references and story elements
Shitty cape comics, yes. And there's a lot of shit. But there's also a lot of good, by and large most cape stories will give you everything you need to enjoy and understand the story you are reading within that story.
If a side character pops up for a bit and you don't know their entire character history don't have an aneurysm because that shit doesn't matter, and if it did they'd make you aware of it.
Think of the characters as more like settings/backdrops for writers to tell the tales they wish to with them.
Focus more on the runs of a single creative team upon a title, rather than looking at a title with multiple creative teams on it as one book.
Take a look at stuff like Ennis' Punisher, Miller's Daredevil, Morrison's Batman, Grell's Green Arrow, Moore's Swamp Thing, yadda yadda yadda.
There are a lot of shitty cape comics because there are a lot of cape comics. There is nothing inherently lesser or flawed about the story type.
>>82518878
>We recently finished the Berserk anime and
>Watching Berserk
>Not reading Berserk
Very much your fault there, famalam.
>>82518905
>>82518885
I'm not putting down cape comics, it's obvious people like them and I think it's stupid to dismiss someone's tastes even if they aren't your own.
But I stated why cape comics don't seem to match up with my tastes and my friend said that I just had bad experiences, so I wanted to see if that was true.
I HAVE read cape comics that i've enjoyed, but those have been more of the ones that were meant to be self contained.
Batman The Killing Joke
Batman Year One
The Dark Knight Returns
Superman Red Son
All Star Superman
Superman For All Seasons
Those are the ones that I remember liking. As for the ones that I didn't like, I honestly don't remember them at all. It was a few years ago that I browsed /co/ constantly for like a year and I pirated gigs of comics. I will say that I read equally mixed between marvel and DC, it's just that only the DC ones stood out.
>>82518930
I am reading Berserk. The plan was to watch the original anime first and then read it from the start.
>>82518684
All capeverses with a multi-decade spanning continuity are guilty of what you are saying
However, not all capecomics happen in such settings, and some are even pretty self-contained (like Moore's Top10).
>>82519012
Seems like a waste of time to me but okay.
I'unno, I'm just being curmudgeonly. I'm sorry.
>>82518907
"There is nothing inherently lesser or flawed about the story type."
You wouldn't say that the fact that a writer can't permanently kill off the key characters doesn't limit the potential?
>>82519037
OP here. That much is obvious, I was referring to cape comics that DO span various writers and such. Stuff like Watchmen and Top 10 (both of which I have) don't count here.
>>82519045
What's 'permanence' have to do with anything?
If another writer comes in immediately thereafter and retcons a ton of shit it doesn't do a damn thing to the quality of the preceding work.
>>82519068
the assumption that "capecomics" automatically means Big2 is usually reserved for newfags
there is a lot to read in terms of superhero stuff other than marvel and dc mainline universes
>>82518994
I'm on the same page with you honestly. I don't keep up with the main comic universes, too many reboots and retcons and there's really no consequences.
I like the stand alone stories as character studies, because I think they capture all the good about these character archetypes refined over so many decades, but without the baggage of an indefinite future.
And it's worth reading some more "indie" western comics, like Prophet or sweet tooth or XO manowar, to get a different flavor.
And there's always deconstruction of the Cape genre like irredeemable or watchmen.
>>82518994
When it comes to reading capes, read runs and follow good writers rather than wallow through 400 chapters just because of the character.
>>82518907 posted a couple examples of runs that come from long series and that I find excellent as well.
>>82518684
bait
>>82518684
>Is it true that a majority of cope comics aren't like this?
Most cape books are exactly what you described. The non-Marvel/DC/Image/Archie/Malibu[Ultraverse] cape books tend to be not like that though.
>What should I try reading to change my mind?
All Star Superman
Silver Surfer Requiem
Nextwave
Badger
Madman
Nexus
Punisher: Welcome Back Frank
Punisher: Born
Punisher (MAX) #1-60
Archie Meets The Punisher
Batman Year One
Batman: The Dark Knight Returns
Batman: The Killing Joke
Batman: Mad Love
The Batman Adventures volume 1
The Batman Adventures Holiday Special
Superman Adventures
Superman: For The Man Who Has Everything
Hitman (if you consider this cape, which it barely has anything to do with)
Planetary (which has "superpowers", but isn't really focused on "superheroes")
Kingdom Come
Marvels
Daredevil #168-191
Daredevil: Born Again
Marshal Law
The Boys
Foolkiller
Supreme Power volume 1 (and related spin-offs)
Captain Confederacy
The American
Tom Strong volume 1 (does this even count as cape?) plus Tom Strong's Terrific Tales plus The Many Worlds of Tesla Strong
Tomorrow Stories
Terra Obscua
The Heckler
Flaming Carrot
The Rocketeer (Dave Stevens run)
normalman
Megaton Man
Sensational She-Hulk
The Moth
US 1
Sky Doll
Coyote
PunX
>>82519117
As true as that may be, the conversation that me and my friend had were specifically about those types of cape comics. (Batman, Superman, Justice League, Green Lantern, Avengers, X-Men, Spiderman)
>>82518907
>But there's also a lot of good, by and large most cape stories will give you everything you need to enjoy and understand the story you are reading within that story.
>If a side character pops up for a bit and you don't know their entire character history don't have an aneurysm because that shit doesn't matter, and if it did they'd make you aware of it.
This.
If you're watching a movie, and a character is introduced, you don't have to know their whole backstory or something. If it's relevant they'll tell you. If not, they serve a different purpose in the story.
It's seriously not hard.
>>82519045
How does this matter at all?
They died in the story. Their death had impact. If another writer wants to tell another story with those characters that's fine.
>>82519146
Oh shit son!
This is why I love /co/, this board legitimately prosthlytizes new comic readers via great suggestions and storytimes rather than just blowing off newfags for ignorance. I'm not even the OP, but there's a few I need to read in there.
You're one of the hero's without capes anon.
>>82519146
Green Arrow (Mike Grell run)
Swamp Thing (Alan Moore run, though this probably doesn't quite count as "cape")
Watchmen
Superman: Up, Up, and Away!
Superman: Last Son
Superman: Escape From Bizarro World
Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes
Superman: Brainiac
Superman For All Seasons
Superman: Red Son
Superman and Batman: World's Funnest
Batman: The Long Halloween
Batman: Dark Victory
>>82518684
>The fact that nobody actually dies or stays dead ruins all sense of tension and takes away the impact of deaths and cheapens them
Unless they are a d-lister, in which case there's a decent chance they'll remain permanently dead.
>>82519166
Read Grant Morrison's JLA
Denny O'Neil's Batman
Grant Morrison's Batman
Joe Casey's Adventures of Superman
Grant Morrison's New X-Men
Peter Milligan's X-Force/X-Statix
Claremont's Uncanny X-Men
Geoff's Green Lantern
Ditko's Spider-Man
Stern's Spider-Man
Busiek's Avengers
Basically what you should be getting from this is that the actual creative teams are what you pay attention to and not the property. A good writer and a good artist can make a good story regardless of the character.
>>82519146
>Punisher: Welcome Back Frank
SEQUEL TO THIS:
Punisher War Zone volume 2
>Punisher: Born
>Punisher (MAX) #1-60
GOES ALONG WITH THESE:
Punisher: The Tyger
Punisher: The Cell
Punisher Presents Barracuda
Punisher: The End
>>82519187
See also this post and these: >>82519192
>>82519234
>>Punisher: Welcome Back Frank
>SEQUEL TO THIS:
>Punisher War Zone volume 2
Shi, I mean War Zone was the sequel to Welcome Back Frank.
>>82519242
>Shi
*Shit
no one is mentioning the New Mutants original run, but its legitly the best mutie book marvel had in the 80s/90s and one that is fairly self-contained, at least in the sense that the crossovers can be skipped without much trouble
>>82518994
>I HAVE read cape comics that i've enjoyed, but those have been more of the ones that were meant to be self contained.
No, here's what you did. You read only the most acclaimed books and ignored everything else.
Batman Year One was published as a segment of an ongoing. Ongoings are divided into segments like that. The rest of the Batman comics from about the 300s to 500s are all gold, but people recognize that one because it gets hype.
I mean, we could recommend you tons of "self-contained" books, like Legends of the Dark Knight, but the problem is you genuinely don't understand how comics are actually written. You are, I'm sorry to tell you, a dumb fucking casual.
>>82519146
>>82519192
>>82519218
>>82519234
Thanks, anons, I'll get started on those, it's a hell of a list to work from.
Honestly not sure why so many people are getting pissed off. This is a really common reaction if you're used to self-contained non serial comics and manga and try to get into American superhero comics.
I read some capes every now and then and do enjoy some runs but I still feel like they're dragged down by the format and would be superior in pacing and storytelling if they were allowed to be clear stories with a beginning and an end (which admittedly some good cape runs are) controlled creatively by fewer people.
>>82519146
No Miracleman?
>>82518684
how did you manage to say all that while sucking dick?
>>82519146
>Supreme Power volume 1 (and related spin-offs)
Supreme Power: Hyperion
Supreme Power: Nighthawk
Doctor Spectrum
Those and the original volume. Ignore everything that came after that because it got really shitty really fast.
>>82519324
The crankiness is because of how common a reaction this is, and because (as has been noted quite often in this thread) it's such an inaccurate, uneducated response.
We're just crotchety in our efforts to educate. I still feel like OP has been provided with proper information now.
>>82519218
I wouldn't call these self-contained except for Ditko era Spider-Man.
>>82519324
It's the same as people who say "Superman is boring."
It's an opinion they're parroting as fact because they don't actually know what they're talking about and refuse to learn.
>>82519337
Miracleman probably belongs on there as well. Forgot about that one.
>>82519310
OP, read Miracleman as well.
>>82519371
Because "Self-Contained" is a dumb fucking meme. There is literally no reason to get triggered just because a character appears that might have appeared before in something else a decade ago.
The only thing people are scared of with cape comics are numbers.
>>82519362
To be honest the reactions on this board are really helpful and mild compared to anywhere else on 4chan.
I asked who a new political meme was in a /pol/ thread and got called an ignorant nigger like 30 times in a matter of minutes. I still don't know who it is.
On /co/ you get huge-ass annotated lists of comics to solve your question.
>>82519310
>>82519402
I'm not OP! I'm just a relatively new comic reader who's also taking notes here. I've added miracleman to the list.
>>82519371
But the whole point is you don't NEED to read to read tie-ins or past runs to appreciate those runs.
>>82519411What was the meme?
>>82519427
Word of advice: Take your time reading whichever stuff you enjoy. No need to try reading everything at once and feel free to add or drop titles you don't like
Does /co/ consider the Giffen/DeMatteis/Maguire Justice League to be "self-contained" and "not require knowledge of backstory", or no?
>>82518878
>We recently finished the Berserk anime and he absolutely hated the ending.
Well yeah, the ending of the anime WAS shit. It's literally "rocks fall, everybody died, except for the main character who is forced to watch his love interest violently raped in front of him."
Seriously, all it's missing is a "To be continued".
>>82519481
Morrison's JLA is FILLED with shit that happens in other books. Electric Superman, Wonder Woman being dead, Aquaman's whole 90s era of bullshit, Kyle Rayner being a faggot, Mullet Superman, etc. It's not a beginner friendly series at all. And it even crosses over with an event or two.
>>82519411
It's like that for faster moving boards.
Why should anyone take the time to tell you something you should know to partake in the conversation? You prove that your not invested enough to do something as simple as a google search, why should they invest in you?
>>82519505
Just go fucking read it man, it's good, that's what you need to know.
>>82519541
And it's still able to be enjoyed on it's own merits, in it's own context, because it's well-written.
>>82519389
OP here. I'd like to think I that my OP was posed as a question and not as me stating my opinion as a fact. I stated my experience and instead of making an opinion based off of that I wanted feedback.
>>82519362
I've definitely been provided with proper information. I'm going to save all of the recs on evernote and go through them one by one over time.
>>82519410
By self contained I mean a self contained story. Not something where you need to know about multiple universes and such.
Aside from just needing to know a lot of stuff, I feel like not being self contained leads to off the wall characterization. There's also that some cape comics have writing comparable to cliche shonens (content without depth).
>>82519521
We'd discussed beforehand how the anime is just part of the manga and how the manga continues the story.
Eh, the horse I'm beating is glue, but whatever.
You have to treat cape comics like watching pro team sports. It's not ever going to be something you can encapsulate in one place and understand ALL of it. It is not a long scroll to read everything of and understand everything through the passing of generations. Even with Wikipedia. It is for you to drop in and out of with the squads and moments that you enjoy.
This type of serialized monthly inherited storytelling has been here before you and it will continue after you die, just like your local sports franchise for the most part. It outlives its creators. So pick up a random issue you might enjoy and go from there. There's a short recap page in the front most of the time and that'll get ya started.
There is no obligation. And you are not expected to binge and learn Everything. Find an individual way to enjoy it. Or not.
>>82519411
To help a medium grow and gain insight, or even understanding, you have to evangelize it. You have to talk it up. Not everyone is the old standard crotchety grognard or "Comic Book Guy" from the Simpsons. You cant be and expect people to like anything or get into anything if you're an arrogant hipster about it.
It's how religions spread and people get recruited for other things, through the positive aspects being talked up.
>>82519481
I honestly can't remember the guys name, it was hours ago. He was a RNC guy who was advocating for trump, /pol/ was hype about him because of a few tweets he'd made in the last 24 hours.
>>82519557
I respect that. I actually love how brutal and fast /pol/ is, the trump generals are unreal with how fast they create content and news. But I was out of the loop for a day and missed out on a few "based" tweets. My fault for asking, but you can't always find information by lurking in those, the thread turnover is too fast.
>>82519563
I was asking that for OP's sake. I've already read it. It's fucking hilarious. I'm just not sure that I'd recommend it to someone who admittedly dislikes "backstory" and "non-self-contained comics".
>>82519641
I'm always glad to see that attitude. Maybe I've just spent too much time in the more aggressive boards like /pol/ or /tv/ but it's nice to see a sense of comradery and evangelism about these topics. /co/ is a pretty bro board.
>>82519591
>We'd discussed beforehand how the anime is just part of the manga and how the manga continues the story.
Does he know that the anime completly skipped every scene with the Skrull Knight, who is the only reason Guts escaped?
>>82519541
Justice League is literally a crossover book. What the fuck kind of cokehead faggot would expect to be able to read a crossover book as "self contained?"
For fucks sake.
>>82519734
Seriously. I was pissed they dropped out skull knight, he's a huge badass and is pretty integral to what guts may become. [Spoiler]A warrior outside of fate. [Spoiler]
>>82519591
As far as self contained story is concerned, all you need to know is the characters involved and what their roles are in the story. Everything else is vague dream logic in the past in cape comics until directly referenced.
You don't need to know everything. Just the basics and then deal with corner cases as they arise. The basic blurb about each character and how they interact with each other is all you need to know for the moment. If it bothers you not knowing everything about every single person in the story, then that's on you.
What I like about the way capes work is that it makes their world seem thriving, alive.
I got into cape comics fairly recently (when the New 52 started) and the relations between the characters are what got me the most interested in those stories. In that regard, I loved Demon Knights and All-Star Western because it gives you glimpses of the past that interconnect with the present.
>You don't just read issues of one series but you have to read several other series from the past or that are currently ongoing to get references and story elements
I mean, I love comics and I love manga - I've probably read more of both than most people on /a/ and /co/. But this totally isn't true, with exceptions - notably, Claremont and his 17 year old run on the X-Men. But that's like asking someone to read a manga, eight years in, and then being shocked that they'd be confused by the relationships of certain characters.
As long as you read a comic from the writer's first issue, you'll understand it. That's the job of a writer, and if you're unsure, or thrown into the story in media res, that's part of the storytelling.
To say you don't like cape comics but still read shounen manga is a bit silly. We're spoiled in the West because we read manga from volume one, torrented off the internet, and even a long running story has only been in circulation long enough for it to still be considered "modern".
Do you really think every One Piece fan in Japan, (where torrenting is highly illegal and used book stores like Book Off are starting to plastic wrap older volumes to dissuade window shoppers from reading an entire volume in the store), has read all of One Piece, or did they jump in and enjoy it because it's enjoyable? The same way us comic fans have for the last 60 years?
I jumped into comics as a kid and could only afford three books a month - if I missed an issue, I inferred the story or made up my own, the same way I would if I missed a Saturday cartoon. And I still loved the medium.
When did you lose your heart, OP?
>>82519324
I'm guessing one reason people are cranky is because we have to share space with cartoonfags and /tv/fags.
>>82518684
Usually you can just drop in on stories as long as you have an understanding of the characters. Beyond that, comics aren't limited to caps. Further, even capes have a ton of standalone issues or series.
Also anime and manga are just as fucking convoluted.
>>82518684
Eh, it's not that bad, really. Just remember that: "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" is the sole guidline that has been shaping the US end of the genre since its very inception.
Read it as if you were being lied to by every character and as if the story was actually a re-telling of an original story by am ancient Roman historian who has it out for the genre. Any other approach will just make you question your sanity.
>>82518684
Don't read Capeshit. The few good ones will get hyped and you can read it and ignore the rest.
Maybe try to read some graphic novels.
>>82518684
Eh, you could try reading C or D-listers, those tendo to be better and since very few give a shit about them,their stories can have lasting consequences or even end for good
And this:
>>82519146
>>82519192
>>82519218
>>82519234
>>82519354
are really good recs
>>82518684
>The stories tend to be convoluted and not self contained. You don't just read issues of one series but you have to read several other series from the past or that are currently ongoing to get references and story elements
Of the Big two?
Yes you are spot on and it's a big reason I don't follow monthly reads.
However there are trades that limit such tom foolhardy issues.
If you get/read the trades Captain Marvel vol1, Warlock trade, Avengers vs Thanos, The Infinity Gauntlet omnibus you just got the whole history of Thanos and the Gauntlet just like a manga would. with little to no needing to jump around to get the whole story because it's all laid out in each trade.
>2. The fact that nobody actually dies or stays dead ruins all sense of tension and takes away the impact of deaths and cheapens them
This happens a lot in manga as well so I feel you are either having selective reasoning happening or just dumb luck haven't touch resurrection arc 127.
>What should I try reading to change my mind?
Trades.
Serious tones:
Iron man extremis
Daredevil born again
silver surfer requiem
Moon Knight The Bottom
Iron man demon in a bottle
Bat-man: Killing Joke
All Star Super-man
Superman: Red Son
Bat-man year one
good camp/fun:
Spider-man hobgoblin lives
Ant-Man Vol. 1: Second-Chance Man
Infinity Watch
Not a trade but read Martian Manhunter Vol 2 24
Im sure many anons will share other trades that might interest you more but that's a start.
>>82524577
>This happens a lot in manga as well so I feel you are either having selective reasoning happening or just dumb luck haven't touch resurrection arc 127.
It does indeed, but they constantly lampoon it with comments like "He wouldn'd die even if we killed him", while the immortals in cape comics are always absolutely mortified and start screaming incoherent shit like "YOU'RE JUST AS BAD AS THE GUY WHO HAS GENOCIDED A QUARTER OF OUR GALAXY AND SOME OF THE NEIGBOURING DIMENSIONS11!!1!!!!11" when one of their numbers is temporarily inconvenienced.
>>82518684
Try the current run of Omega Men OP. You may not like it, but if you don't have some appreciation for it you don't actually care about comics (cape, non-cape, manga, whatever) after all.
>>82524577
That only happens in shitty manga, and usually if it happens its a product of bad writing and so the entire product can be avoided. With comics there are plently of ones with great writing where a character will be killed off and brought back or there's no risk of death at all simply due to the nature of comics books
>>82518684
All of that shit you listed can easily be applied to most manga.
>>82526129
>1. The stories tend to be convoluted and not self contained. You don't just read issues of one series but you have to read several other series from the past or that are currently ongoing to get references and story elements
Really? Most manga
As for nobody dying and tension being taken away, that only applies to shitty manga that isn't worth reading anyways. You should obviously only read stuff that's worth reading.
>>82526169
>You should obviously only read stuff that's worth reading.
Kek.
