WHY DO BATMANS VILLAINS EXIST WHEN BATMAN HIMSELF DOESNT???
Otherwise it'd just be NYPD blue
>>82512818
Why not?
It's just a cash grab niggi don't look to deep into it, I don't think it's considered canon
None of those villains were created as a result of Batmans actions so who care
Bruce is around 14 right now I think.
Assuming he's Bats by the age of 22 then
Riddler will be 37
Freeze will be 48
Penguin will be 46
Strange will be 54
Selina will be 22
Ivy will be around 20/21
There is literally nothing wrong with these ages
Why doesn't Batman just rape Gotham?
>>82512818
What does Batman have to do with the creation of his villains? If anything isn't this situation the very thing that gives rise TO Batman?
>>82513047
>Batman Rapes the DC Universe
I'd read it.
>>82512818
>All of Batman's villains were caused by Batman
I want casuals to leave
>>82513007
>None of those villains were created as a result of Batmans actions so who care
This, and honestly I prefer this to the usual "it's your fault Batman if there are supervillains".
The only villains that are straight Batman's fault are Joker, Two-Face, and Catwoman.
>>82512818
>He's as mad as a Hatter
Cool mad Hatter reference might be cool
>we're all mad here
Fuck! I can already tell they're going to go overboard with mad Hatter.
>>82513175
How the hell is Two-Face his fault?
>>82513175
Nah on Catwoman. Its not his fault she was street raised.
>>82512818
What's the name of the show again you fucking idiot?
>>82513175
Why Catwoman? She was like Batman's second villain to appear in history and she was just some cat burglar with a previous rap sheet.
>>82512818
Because Batman, like all of his villains, are a product of Gotham's own strain of bugfucking craziness.
>>82513216
If he just killed all the criminals then Harvey wouldn't have been scarred.
He'd probably still be crazy though.
>>82513127
This.
It's completely understandable to have the origin stories of villains in the comics involve Batman, because that's who Batman comics are about.
But the whole idea that Batman's existence somehow results in a bunch of people, most of whom committed crimes anyway (PENGUIN, NYGMA, MAD HATTER, CATWOMAN, AND THE RED HOOD) is literally Joker tier logic.
One of the few things Gotham did correctly, despite any other flaws, was connecting the Wayne murders to the city's spiral into crime and corruption, as well as making Bruce Wayne's transformation into Batman more a product of what Gotham had become rather than the other way around.
Because this show's entire concept is retarded.
>>82512973
You're stupid as fuck.
>>82512818
It kind of justifies the existence of Batman more.
Why would the city need a billionaire ninja to fight crime?
Because criminals have freeze rays.
>>82513216
In most versions it's Batman's machinations that ultimately cause Dent to be scarred. But really I only said Two-Face because Batman himself considers it his fault.
>>82513231
Catwoman only thought to dress up when she robbed people because of Batman. She's the firstcopycat. In Year One at least.
"Batman made his villains lol" is just some movie shit they do to make things more tidy.. while a lot of Batman stories do have him involved in parts of villain's origins a lot of them would still be villains if batman wasn't around.
People keep complaining about age gaps and batman beating up on old men, but ever since they started giving Batman ridiculous martial arts skills its been hard to sell Penguin, riddler, and so on as physical threats anyway.
>>82513273
see
>>82513324
>year one
>>82513324
So she was still a villain, but she just dressed like a freak because of Batman
>>82513273
In most modern interpretations Selina's already a thief, but she only adopts the costume and the persona after Batman shows up.
>>82513324
I thought the origin from Long Halloween is usually the one accepted by everyone
>>82513378
>>82513384
So it's kind of his fault. Like, Batman's the RuPaul of Gotham and he gets credit/blame for the dragshow it's become.
>I'm rich and bored, so I'll obviously fight crime dressed as a bat
>We're criminals and just got our ass kicked by a crazy man. We should dress as themed costumed villains now.
Why would you EVER keep this dime novel writing?
>>82513413
Well, that's kind of his fault in a "I didn't trust him" and "I didn't save him, after I bothered to visit the trial in full costume in the middle of the day". Or is that Dark Victory? Ah who knows.
I'll cede the point.
>>82513324
He didn't make her a villian, but he gave her the idea of being a named one. Totally different.
>>82513083
Mark Millar wanted to write this story I believe
People talk about how Batman causing his own villains is a stupid concept, but apparently every villain in Gotham being connected to the Waynes' murder in someway is okay and not contrived bullshit?
>>82513844
No, every criminal connect to Strange is beliveable
>>82513175
>accepting any non BTAS Two-Face origin as canon
>>82513413
And after that Bruce says if he did put more trust in dent that wouldnt have happened to him.
>>82512956
Half the point of Batman's rogues gallery is that they are the byproduct of his actions as a vigilante
>>82514177
Except that wasn't the case for literally decades until things like the Burton movie started cropping up.
>>82513981
Penguin was already a villain.
Riddler was already a villain.
Firefly was already a villain.
Freeze was already a villain.
Ivy is already on her way to being a villain.
The Joker meme was spread already.
Hugo Strange has not been involved in the origins of any of the villains we know of so far beyond Azrael. He helped Freeze out along the way, but otherwise him having associations with the villains is hardly surprising because he runs the goddamn Arkham Asylum, where they all pass through.
>>82514177
No that's only what has been pushed strongly relatively recently, for ages it wasn't the case at all. And there's plenty of flaws with the idea that Batman somehow brings all the crims to the yard. Especially with the whole "Gotham is cursed and will always be a cesspool" thing that has also emerged even more recently that suggests that crazy will always stick to gotham like flies on shit.
>>82512818
Because the story is being told...and it is the nature of the city.
That's why we have had so many false starts on the Joker. Bruce's story is being told, so of course that pimpling infection wants into this reality. It wants to press against the boundaries of the bleed and reach out and touch whoever it can to act through.
>>82514390
Gotham isn't cursed.
Gotham is a machine. It is a machine made to build the bat. A complex mechanism of great cosmic importance.
>>82515025
I thought it was literally on a demon on something
>>82515072
Well, it sort of is. Gotham has been circled by a demon hunting the bat. An idea, a weapon.
A hunter killer idea seeded through history as a failsafe to-
Yes. Its built on a demon. A demon, the last fuck you of the space god of evil, and a few untapped and unrefined lazarus pits.
>>82512862
That's what I wanted.
>>82512818
All of them but Mr Freeze I can accept. Mr Freeze's origin must be post-Batman it's just his character.
>>82515537
Really? Mr Freeze of all people? Why?
He's just a scientist who resorts to crime to fund his experiments.
>>82515621
Because Batman being present for his origin is part of their relationship.
>>82513007
riddler is a little older than he needs to be, but it would be neater if the characters weren't full villain yet
like Freeze should still be a normal man
and it feels odd that Harvey is so old, him and Bruce are suppose to be close friends
>>82515698
I have no idea how old Harvey is. He might look older than he is because of his unhealthy lifestyle.
>>82513127
Yeah I really like the idea that it's Batman's existence which is the reaction to the insanity and corruption of Gotham rather than Batman existing causing the escalation, it really justifies the need for it.
>>82515755
>The look on young Bruces face when he sees Azrael in action
>earlier in the episode he was arguing with Gordon about having to do things outside the law to get justice
>>82512818
Elseworld.
>>82512818
I actually prefer Batman's villains came before him. The existence of Batman would also kind of make more sense. The city is terrified of freaks in costumes and for Bruce to become a freak in a costume to beat and scare the shit out of them, is a pretty cool idea to me.
>Look at this kid! He always hits a homerun, he's like some sort of Bat-Man or something!
>>82516097
>Damn Waylon, those are some killer crocs you got on!
>>82512818
why does batman exist?
because gotham exists
>>82514177
That's a fucking meme brah. Even the Joker was a villain before he met Batman.
Because this show is garbage
>>82516591
but we are not talking about Arrow, Supergirl, LoT or Flash
>>82514177
Tell me how Penguin being penguin has anything to do with Batman. Killer Croc? Batman didn't give him that degenerative disease. Ivy is a plant freak, and would still be one even if there wasn't a Batman. They had a whole BTAS episode that basically served to debunk the myth, by showing why each villain was the way they were based on their own decisions.
>>82512818
Cause? Because Gotham is cesspool of crazy that churns out freaks like them.
Purpose? To give Batman a reason to exist.
>>82516852
it also makes no sense in the DC universe
I mean, do people blame Green Arrow for his enemies
>>82515755
>>82513127
>>82513007
>>82513081
This. The "Batman creates his villains" thing is a relatively new addition to the canon. I much prefer that Batman is a natural part of his city's ecosystem.
Remember, there are other superheroes in the world. Batman was inspired by Alan Scott, who used to operate in Gotham.
>>82513175
>Two-Face
ehhhhh, he was always crazy, and Harvey's own pursuit of justice was what got him scarred. But yeah, Catwoman is a thrillseeker following in Batman's footsteps and Joker is just Batman's shadow.
>>82516591
>best cape sow ever made
>garbage
>>82515665
Please elucidate how Batman is required for "my wife is dying so I froze her and now I'll do anything I can to cure her".
It makes more sense for him to be a villain up until he meets Batman because Batsy can go all "yo I'll fund research and equipment and shit".
I mean we know Fries would refuse it because muh villain but it still makes as much sense as Batman being somehow essential to his origin.
>>82516783
>>82517344
>>82517344
Oh so you are Flashfag.
>>82517386
literally everything is better than Gotham
>>82517422
Have you not seen Arrow?
>>82517463
at least it had 2 good seasons before going into the shitter
>>82517317
I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, Anon. Most people are parroting what they learned from The Dark Knight or Frank Miller. That and the Arkham Games are as far as most people's Batman knowledge extends, and they think it makes them experts.
>>82517344
I mean, it's not bait if he's right, is it? Flash had a solid first Season but has been floundering this season. Hell, I think Gotham's leaps and bounds better than Daredevil too.
>>82517496
>Green Batman
>Ever Good
no
>>82517422
no
>>82512818
There are multiple creative takes on Gotham, Batman, the villians gallery, the psychology of them all, etc.
If you read the original Detective Comics from #1 on it's adventure crime drama with the villians (and detectives) growing more flamboyant over time but each having their own distinct simple origins not connected to each other at all and it's just constant thwarting of their crimes that create that animosity, if you read some post retcon flashbacks there's all sorts of reasons for villians to obsess over Batman specifically, if you watch the cartoons for your origins there's reasons to hate Bruce or Batman personally, if you watch the movies it's personal again, but if you read some other stories their origins have nothing to do with Batman or Gotham: they're just the products of a DC universe.
If you're one of those who are intent upon clinging to the notion of how this comicbook world SHOULD work then don't judge the show too harshly, after all the characters like Nigma are crazy and flamboyant but Nigma's not the Riddler yet, Hugo isn't a known criminal, Oswald is still trying to be a normal Gothamite: there can still be a push from Batman yet to come.
>>82517003
Batman's not even the only hero in Gotham, but no one ever says that Ragman and Simon Dark create all of Gotham's villains.
>>82518136
Doesn't matter. You'll also notice that ever Gotham thread also has somebody say " why is Bruce still in Gotham as a child instead of spending 20 years training to be a ninja in a mystical Asian monastery?"
None of these people care about anything Batman related that wasn't written by Frank Miller.
>>82515665
literally fucking how
>>82515737
He's 26 when he becomes DA. That's one of the few ages that gets thrown out in Batman canon, and I think it stays pretty consistent
>>82518948
I think they were confusing him with Bullock since that is the Harvey most seen and the one with an unhealthy lifestyle.
>>82516897
A pretty decent reason too. When he knew nothing about his parents murder it was just some random crime causing him to be obsessive and go to extremes. While he is already down that path in the show, all these crazy bastards give him a clearer reason to clean up the streets because everyday cops can't handle lunatic after lunatic fucking everything up.
>>82512818
Gotham was weird prior to Batman, especially in continuities where it was the first Green Lantern's hometown.
>>82519224
I really, really hope that the last season has Bruce finally tracking down all the Wayne enterprises conspirators, trying to suss out just who ordered the hit on his parents....
and never finds it. And he meets Joe Chill and finds out it was just a random street crime. There was a whole net of conspiracies all tied up around his parents, and yet their death was just random chance.
>>82517496
Gotham has had one and a half great seasons and the other half season was still okay at worst.
>>82519302
but I watched the first episode and there were no splosions so I stopped watching and decided to shitpost about it all the time
>>82519300
Too late. They already implicatedMalone.
But how'sJoe Chillconnected to Wayne Enterprises???
>>82514960
This
>>82519442
I disagree. In fact, they went out of their way to not confirm that Malone killed the Waynes.
>>82513111
Don't you mean... causals?
>>82519476
Even if Malone didn't do it and just claimed he did in an attempt to get Bruce to end his life, it's been confirmed that someone was contracted to kill the Waynes by Hugo Strange.
>>82519476
The guyconfessed and suicided.That's pretty dang incriminating. (and Bruce was there to get even more messed the frak up by more death, way to go Gotham)
>>82512862
Nah
>Show about Gordon and Gothams Cops
>Dealing with ordinary crime + emerging theatrical supervillainy
>The Batman is basically an urban myth and the viewer never sees him outside of sillhouettes and shadowy darting figures on the rooftops
Give it the same tone as Se7en. With Batman.
>>82519626
I thought of Gotham City all through when I first saw Se7en. It just felt like a Batman story.
( Only way later on I realized it was a take on Dante's Divine Comedy. )
>>82515244
So has batman cured Gotham's curse yet?
>>82519587
He said he wouldn't remember killing them if he did, then was going to let himself be murdered.
There was something about Malone, but him being the Wayne's killer isn't necessarily it. It's like the Jerome fakeout.
>>82517422
How does it feel to have so shit taste. Does it hurts?.
>>82512818
Who else /broken/ here?
Sure, Batman doesn't create the villains.
He makes them stronger with his presence.
He forces them to 'git gud'
>>82518906
They are right though, he's starting to reach the age when we went for training abroad.
>>82512818
Because he didn't create them. That's just a meme that you bought into.
>>82520135
this
>>82520105
this as well
>>82520117
No, he's entering the age where he went overseas in some meme stories he went to fulfill some faggoty ninja fetish.
It genuinely makes no fucking sense for a character's whose entire motivation is having an obsessive attachment to a city to up and leave for a decade for #reasons.
>>82514177
yes, I remember it exactly. Batman gave Killer Croc his Croc Scales because he was disgusted by his inferior skin color, he transmorphed brilliant well meaning mayor Oswald Cobblepot into a hideous Penguin Mobster because the Waynes have always hated the Cobblepots. You fucking dumbfuck literally Bane is one of the bigger Batman Villains that was actually influenced by the Batman.
>>82517797
>leaps and bounds better than DD.
Let's not go insane.
The technology levels in this show don't make any goddamned sense.
>>82519768
Gotham's curse is to MAKE the Batman.
>>82513175
you forgot the only reason Bane came to Gotham was because of Batman
>>82520178
Why do you hide actual reasonable arguments inside of embarrassing internet-speak?
>>82520893
I'm almost positive that's intentional. Donal Logue talked about this early in the series.
>At the Los Angeles screening, Logue praised the show's production design, which mixes visual styles and items from different eras. "The look is pretty incredible," he says. "I love the anachronism. Is it the Fifties, the Seventies or is there a futuristic, Blade Runner-esque, early 21st Century vibe to it?"
>>82517095
He didn't say Daredevil.
>>82520893
Just like in Batman TAS. Casual.
>>82521052
Maybe they have a quota to misuse the word meme and were falling behind this week
>>82519753
>Dante's Divine Comedy.
Other than the 7 sins, which were a regular part of catholic dogma by the time Dante was born, it really isn't.
>>82513007
Still isn't an excuse to have them showing up when Bruce is so young. The people that planned this show are fucking morons.
>>82515698
>>82517003
The point isn't that Batman created the villains.
They'd still be villains. It's just that they're partaking in this Long Halloween of costumed villainy. Now it's gonna be Batman dressing up to match them. Ass backwards.
And you can still question whether or not it's Gotham itself that made the whole scene anyway. It's never supposed to be black or white either way.
>>82520893
>>82521224
To be fair, Batman TAS did it much better and was far more stylized. Not just because it was animated either. Gotham is just too cheap and lacking in vision to stylize it more.
>>82520893
It's probably intentional. I mean, come on, a flip phone?
>>82517095
Blade was slightly better. Alas, discontinued because the studio couldn't afford it.
>>82513007
Batman by age 22 seems a bit early desu, although I'm not sure what's currently canon in the comics
>>82524170
26 is usually when he starts out
>>82519626
If Batman never appeared, you lot would be complaining about how Batman never appears and the show is only a cocktease. What we got is pretty good. The age difference kind of bothers me but at least I get my BatxCat ship
>>82512818
Because they have backstories that predate him you great big stupid faggot.
>>82520893
That's intentional, dumbass.
See: Batman TAS
>>82520883
It's not insane at all. Daredevil is, quite honestly, artless trash. It looks like a CW show, has sub-Power Rangers tier fight choreography, and has dialogue like a freshman student film.
It's well liked because it's not on TV and a lot of teenage kids don't watch television, and it's tied to Marvel. It doesn't do anything particularly well, it's just the kind of think people are supposed to like, so they do.
>>82520893
>muh realism!
>>82523698
Oh boy, we got a real winner here.
>not muh batman
>>82519753
How even?
>>82523698
>To be fair, Batman TAS did it much better and was far more stylized. Not just because it was animated either.
>Gotham is just too cheap and lacking in vision to stylize it more.
>I have never seen this show: The Post
what a stupid, stupid bitch you are
>>82521090
>>82523779
Flip phones AND typewriters AND adding machines. Computers exist too but are incredibly rare and look like they're from the early 90s
It's completely intentional
>>82526990
I love how much their concept of the show as "Gotham" led to such a fully realized world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAih5ruv9io
This and a couple other videos, I think, explain the style they were going for, and how they accomplished it.
>>82513007
How many of his Rogue's Gallery did he have a hand in making or at least bringing them to the forefront?
Joker, obviously. Ra's wasn't as active until Bruce proved himself a worthy successor.
Then you have guys like Langstrom and Dent that became villains after Batman's been established.
>>82520178
because he understand that his skills suck and has to train more
it's still part of the obsession, so obsessed he leaves to become better at what he is supposed to do
>>82523698
>MUH BTAS
Based cartooncasual posting frames from a comic he has never read.
>>82527352
Dent's a bit of a fringe case, isn't he? Batman upset the status quo, working with Dent to bring Maroni down, which led to him throwing acid in Dent's face.
>>82527407
It's Xenos, what do you expect? Just filter him.
>>82527168
Yeah it's really incredible how much care they put into everything. Every location and set looks like some surreal nightmare version of a city. And then they take everything a step further and go into all this detail with little touches like using tech to keep the story timeless. It's not "Gotham City in 1990." It's just "Gotham City." It's hard to believe Gotham is shot in the same city as Daredevil. The difference is night and day.
The whole show is just fantastic. They took all the themes of the comics and the best parts of the rest of the franchise, like BTAS and the Burton Batman movies, distilled it all into this perfect amalgamation. Hell, they're even using the show to explore new themes and ideas of things from the comics- no other TV adaptation does that (hell, most movies don't do that.)
It's funny that the best Batman thing we've gotten in years doesn't even have Batman in it.
>>82527676
i mean, I'm not sure how much Batman had to do with Harvey's scarring. His whole thing was that he was the one good man in Gotham politics, and he pushed too far and got broken for it. Now, you can argue whether it was hubris or whether it was a tragic accident, but Two-Face's story is very much Harvey's, not Batman's.
This tends to be the case for many of his villains, with one major exception. Oswald is Penguin out of malice and greed. Fries is Freeze out of grief. Nygma still Riddles when Batman's gone, Bane was already Bane before he came to Gotham, Azrael is an ancient legacy villain, and Ivy would still be Poison without Batman. The only thing that ties Langstrom to Batman is the plot hook that Batman gets blamed for Langstrom's crimes rather than anything in-universe.
The only one I can think of that specifically NEEDS Batman is Joker, and that's only because his modern interpretation defines Joker as only existing because Batman gives him context.
>tfw you wanted Gotham to be an origin story played completely seriously set in like the ''70s/'80s
>tfw you're a firm believer that Batman is partially responsible for his villains
Gotham is so disappointing to me in particular
>>82528232
It is played completely seriously.
You don't want serious. You want gritty and realistic.
>>82528264
But I don't, really.
Shit like having villains exist before Batman just feels goofy. Having sci-fi and comic book stuff going on is fine, but being like "ALL OF BATMAN'S VILLAINS HAVE TO BE HERE OR NOBODY WILL WATCH" is just boring, I think.
>>82528356
Honestly what would feel more goofy is somebody getting into a costume to look like a bat and beat up random thugs. Having villains with their own weird shit going on, their own costumes and empires pre-existing, that makes Bruce dressing up in a strange costume to fight crime more believable. He isn't supposed to be as unhinged as the people he fights. Not yet anyway.
>>82528356
Unless Batman villains are some homunculi they didn't spawn overnight when Batman entered the scene. That'd be really goofy.
>>82528535
I don't want to see Batman, though. That's the point.
>>82528581
No, you dummy.
Isn't it often implied that Gotham didn't really have a big supercriminal problem before Batman and his super-antics inspired them to take it up a notch? Like copycat killings.
>>82528624
Well, nobody on Gotham was really a costumed supercriminal except for Freeze who is now confined to environmental suit and now Azrael who is insane and thinks he's a medieval knight.
Nygma is just a loonie murderer (Ungrateful broad had it coming though), Penguin is just an aspiring criminal. Hugo Strange is an immoral researcher. None wear suits.
>>82528624
No, not it isn't.
>>82528356
Except that's not what it is. Like, at all.
Were you expecting the people who live in Gotham City to hide their faces until Batgod showed up? Or for all of them to move from other cities the day Bruce puts on his ears?
>But why do they know each other?
Of all the girls in Gotham, why did Barbara become Batgirl?
When they were writing Spider-Man, Ditko wanted Green Goblin to be someone Spider-Man had never met, because in reality, the chances of any two people being capes are slim. Stan Lee, however, wanted it to be Osborne. And here's why- characters in fiction know each other because connections are what builds drama. All of these characters lived before Batman, and all of these characters live around each other.
You are right on one note, though. Nobody would be interested in a show ostensibly set in Gotham but featuring nobody or nothing that actually defines what Gotham is. Because at that point, it's just "City."
>>82528687
I'm pretty fucking sure it is.===========
>>82528703
Prove it.
>>82528730
>>82528624
It had Icicle, for one.
>>82528679
Penguin wears a suit tho...
>>82528746
I can't find anything in particular, I just very vividly remember it being sort of a point that Batman's villains didn't start dressing up in costumes before he did. There was crime, but not many if any of Bats' capes did it before he did.
Sorry if I'm wrong, I guess.
>>82528624
It is implied in some stories. It is a very modern interpretation of things. The earliest I remember it was TDKR.
Also, see >>82527948
At the time of Batman becoming Batman, Penguin was already established (as per Pain and Prejudice,) and Ra's was Ra's long before Batman was born. Bruce didn't make the compound that made Clayface, nor did he cause Freeze's chemical accident, and he didn't scar Harvey or mutate Ivy. He didn't train Wesker in ventriloquism. Dollmaker is Dollmaker because of his dad, so unless Bruce was a very sexually active fetus-toddler with poor childrearing skills I don't think we can chalk that one up to him. He certainly didn't cause Zsasz.
Catwoman might have been inspired to become a furry by Batman, though. Killer Moth definitely became a villain to spite Batman, at least, so that's one.
>>82528860
They say that in The Dark Knight. In Dark Knight Returns the strawman yuppie psychologist says it too.
>>82528860
Only Freeze and Azrael have a costume in Gotham. Freeze's is out of necessity, for his survival in the outside environment and Azrael was a thing before Batman. I don't see the problem, especially since Gotham isn't canon but an alternative universe, so...
NOT
>>82523698
>They'd still be villains. It's just that they're partaking in this Long Halloween of costumed villainy. Now it's gonna be Batman dressing up to match them. Ass backwards.
Read some comics, sometime, newfag.
>>82523698
In Morrison's Batman, there is a giant bat terrorizing the prehistoric Gothamites. Batman wore its skin as his cowl.
Batman has been born from his enemies since caveman times.
>>82512818
Because they're fucking up the Batman mythos Smallville style.
>>82531651
>NOT MUH MYTHOS
>>82530150
MUH
