I see we have a Morrison X-Men thread, so let's have a Morrison Batman thread.
Opinions on the whole run?
I've read up until Batman Inc which I have the Absolute for but haven't read yet. I've heard it's the weakest part of the run. Is that true?
>>82444515
>I've heard it's the weakest part of the run. Is that true?
A lot of different people will tell you differently. The run goes
Batman & Son
Black Glove
RIP
Time and the Batman
Batman and Robin
Batman Inc
I think they're all great, but if I had to give a "least favorite," it would actually be Batman and Son. I really can't say anything wrong with it, but it doesn't have nearly as much of a new and interesting take on the characters. Aside from introducing Damian along with a number of elements that would have pay-offs later, it's a pretty standard, if very well written, Batman story.
I'd imagine that the reason some people say Inc is the weakest is because they think the ending is rushed. I can see where they're coming from even if I don't agree. I just love all of the cool things Morrison did with the story during Inc.
I think the issue with Batman Inc is how rushed it all felt (I would guess by editors for the reboot). Reading over it again, the Dr. Dedalus / Spyral stuff is just WTF and feels like it was supposed to be MUCH more developed.
The ending of the whole run and what the implications are for Batman I think I really interesting and deserve a long discussion. I can definitely see how it could be interpreted as the eternal optimist Morrison just saying fuck superhero comics. Especially in the context of FC being ignored and the reboot shitting on him. It's one of his few superhero works that doesn't have a happy or hopeful ending.
>>82444515
Definite Batman run.
>>82444813
>Reading over it again, the Dr. Dedalus / Spyral stuff is just WTF and feels like it was supposed to be MUCH more developed.
At least we got a great followup in Grayson.
>>82444813
>Especially in the context of FC being ignored and the reboot shitting on him.
Yeah, but morrison was devastated by this. The only reason he didnt leave DC is that DiDio begged him.
>>82444989
Source? Sounds interesting.
>>82445054
No one has a source, /co/ just keeps repeating it. Every interview with Morrison he praises the new 52. The thing is that he's an adult and understands how the comic book industry works, instead of being autistic and throwing a fit.
Absolutely incredible, trancedent. Worked on a fun surface level or as deep as you wanted to go.
>>82445054
Imagine you just co-wrote 52 and then headline'd Final Crisis.
Then Editorial comes alone and says "But this Flashpoint thing, jeez! Let's use THAT to reboot into Nu52!"
I can't imagine he wasn't a little salty over that.
>>82445175
>Every interview with Morrison he praises the new 52
That's really not true at all. Especially if you can read between the lines. He's bored with cape comics and tried to elevate and move forward and execs and editors just regressed all back to the 90's.
Read the comics, he literally had a Editor Ex Machina jump into the middle of finale and end the story and tell Batman to continue being the same character he's always been.
>>82445353
>Imagine
good source fäm
>>82445175
>Every interview with Morrison he praises the new 52
Source?
>>82445353
But that's not what happened. Final Crisis was pitched to do the universal reboot but Levitz said no. Then after he stepped down/got fired/whatever Nelson decided to go ahead with the reboot. It's not some kind of two-faced situation from editorial, one person said no and the one who replaced him said yes.
>>82445400
>>82445400
It never ceases to amaze me how people fail see the New 52 Batman Inc as a direct fuck you to the reboot. Destroying the impeccable groundwork Morrison laid for future writers is probably the worst thing the New 52 did. The way Batman Inc. was chopped up being the worst as that was the best new direction the Bat universe has had probably ever.
>>82445400
>>82445439
Yeah I don't know why he said praise but Morrison was certainly pushing for some kind of reboot. Whether the specifics of the new 52 in execution are what he wanted is to me a separate issue.
>>82445400
When you listen to his interviews, Morrison clearly has a deep love for superhero comics. Just because he makes a commentary about their inevitable status quo doesn't mean he's personally angered by it. They're just a facet of that medium- always have been.
>>82445497
>Destroying the impeccable groundwork Morrison laid for future writers is probably the worst thing the New 52 did.
Yep. Dickbats and Damian in Gotham was a fresh, sustainable idea that had years to go, with Bruce as the global Superhero Batman. Inc as well led to so many possibilities. Then Snyder brought it back to grunting and punching through Gotham, rehashing every story but worse. But it was easier to follow for casuals/Nolan fans so.
>>82445400
OTOH there's his Action Comics run which ends with Lara telling baby Kal the never-ending cyclical story of 5th dimensional imps.
>>82445574
>a competent artist will never redo the Rags Morales issues
If I were a rich man i'd commission it. Could have been All-Star tier w/o that absolutely dreadful art to muddle it all up.
>>82445592
>not liking Rags Morales
His work on IC was great.
>>82445568
Snyder's run is kind of irrelevant in that sense. I don't see them purposely pushing for "simpler" stuff like you're saying. Being difficult to follow didn't hurt Grant's sales when his was the main book. It's Batman. They'll buy it regardless.
>>82445554
>Just because he makes a commentary about their inevitable status quo doesn't mean he's personally angered by it. They're just a facet of that medium- always have been.
He loves superheroes and wanted to push them forward and then when he got all of his work raped by status quo he said, "oh well, I guess status quo is just a facet of that medium- always have been." He made that commentary as it was happening to him anon because he was trying to progress past it and got blocked.
>>82445400
>regressed all back to the 90's
You say that like a bad thing. The 90's were crazy sometimes in bad ways sometimes in good ways. The 2000's are when bland nostalgia and what Morrison calls " dad comics" took over, I see more of that in the New 52 than the 90's.
>>82445592
>Grant Morrison writing Golden Age Superman reboot featuring artwork by Chris Sprouse...on backups
>>82445616
It was abysmal. Faces, layouts, no sense of scale.
>>82445673
The turning point was Identity Crisis. DC was really good before that tryhard shit that affected line-wide tone.
>>82445539
Morrison wasn't pushing for a reboot in the sense of the New 52 if he was even pushing for one at all. Even if he was pushing for advancements of the big seven characters to New Gods I'm sure he would allow classic stories featuring those characters to be told along side them if he were in charge of the DCU.
>>82444515
It's good if it's the only batman run you've ever read
>>82445616
I remember the early issues looking kind of awkward in places. The biggest culprit was the coloring. The beginning of the New 52 had terrible colors across the board. This is a great scene despite them though.
>>82445673
Yea, Morrison really loved the 90's....
>>82445616
that was 10 years ago.
>>82445683
That's what i'm saying, those Sprouse backups were like a kick in the balls, so perfectly illustrated and well suited but made you infuriated they were *only* the backups.
>>82445702
Yeah I think the specific execution of the new 52 isn't what he would have done, but I think he was pushing for some kind of reboot. I don't see that as particularly debatable unless you want to argue that he didn't come up with Final Crisis.
>>82445729
Morrison was there for the 90s. He wrote Skrull Kill Krew, the concept being "Hey, remember those skrulls Reed turned into cows? They got into the food supply and gave people powers, now they use those powers to kill skrulls."
>>82445748
Final Crisis didn't wipe any slates clean though. It advanced the scale and scope of the characters and allowed for unique storytelling opportunities but it acknowledged the entire history and multiversal aspect of the DCU. I'm not disagreeing that it was meant to be a game-changing event, but Morrison's ethos is the hypertime concept which is all inclusionary as opposed to the restrictions of a reboot.
>>82445729
I don't care what Morrison thinks, I'm saying that in the 90's cape comics were exciting. Sometimes they were awful, sometimes they could be really good. They weren't all just sitting in the middle of the road. A confusing new direction could be an issue away
>>82445852
I think it probably would have been closer to what we're getting now with Rebirth than what we ultimately got with the New 52.
>>82444813
It's very clear that Dr. Daedalus wasn't initially intended to be the big bad of Inc. volume 1 until the reboot forced changes.
>>82444515
if by weakest you mean "the most fun and balls to the wall batman run" then yes, it is
>>82445889
No, Rebirth is New 52.0 and they are both extremely anti-Morrison ideals. I have no idea how you could think that.
One of my biggest critiques has always been that the plot feels more like two runs jammed together.
It makes sense thematically as far as the first part being about daddy and the second being about mommy but then daddy was apparently all manipulated by Darkseid and then that ends and Talia instantly steps in and decides the plot is all about her now.
Think hard about the web here. There's CONNECTIONS between Leviathan and the Black Glove stuff but there's really no reason why other than Talia felt like it. Part of it is because Damian has been along for this whole ride but I'm pretty sure that's just coincidence.
>>82445962
Rebirth is mostly remembering franchises history and melding it with the current continuity. It's much closer to Morrison ideals (everything is canon and should be incorporated) than the new 52.
Might be an "agree to disagree" moment here.
>>82445962
>No, Rebirth is New 52.0
>>82445962
Well all the stuff Morrison loves is going to be in his buddy's Young Animal imprint.
>>82445957
Man those issues were awesome
>>82445998
They chopped off the legs of the run right as it was ending. I'm sure the un-interfered with finale would have been much more cohesive and thematically whole.
One of the hypest moments in modern comics honestly, especially the issues leading up to it, absolutely gripping...
The weakest is that Tan arc that keeps Batman and Robin from being a GOAT
Inc is really fun.
>>82446019
They've been spouting "everything is canon" for a year or two now. It's empty PR speech and creativity has been repeatedly proven to take a back seat to financial bottom lines, which is about as Anti-Morrison as you can get.
>>82446096
As well as this amazing reveal, and expert use of the character
>>82445709
Care to elaborate?
>>82446135
the experience of batman and robin with /co/ is one of those great moments reading comics. all the hype and theories and discussion
>>82446138
/co/ntrarianism
>>82446043
Instead of with the biggest comic book characters and universe in the world.
>>82446099
>The weakest is that Tan arc that keeps Batman and Robin from being a GOAT
Unfortunate truth, weak link
>>82446135
And finally, this absolutely insane moment. What a run. Can it be that it was all so simple then, bros?
I love Hypercrisis as much as the next guy but I probably would have enjoyed this run more if it was self contained and only dealt with the history and legacy of BATMAN.
Having Dakseid pop in for five panels to be the answer for the entire first half of the plot just to tie in with Final Crisis, 52, Hypercrisis, etc. was kind of lame and it took a lot of the air out of Simon Hurt who was the best original Bat villain of the last decade up until that point.
>>82446168
DCYou was a harsh lesson in why every book having a status quo shift alongside more experimental books is a sales mistake.
>>82446153
Agreed 100%, a singular time, few runs fostered such fervor and discussion, a testament to its quality
>>82446186
It worked with or without him really, while he was part of a huge plot point, Hurt was the focus
>>82446186
You don't love Hypercrisis as much as you think you do then. It's all about breaking it down and then blowing it up to (and beyond) archetypes.
>>82446115
But "story > continuity" never meant "everything is canon". It was only a statement that the editorial atmosphere had shifted from the new 52 days where editors were literally writing half the stories and drove off so many creators. That was never a message for the fans; it was about creators. You got tricked if you thought it was supposed to be about you or some kind of philosophic move at all.
>>82446201
Get the fuck out of here with that Gentry business speak.
>>82446255
It also justified why Johns was able to write a year-long arc with classic Superman, Batman, and Hal and not concern himself with Superbro, Gordon, and Hobo Hal or where it falls within the timeline.
>>82446255
It doesn't change the fact that they are still ignoring their entire history as well as the limitless possibilities the DCU offers if you don't place arbitrary restrictions on it primarily designed to boost sales.
Now that the dust has finally settled, I think we can all agree that this was one of the best batsuits.
>>82446302
I just think at this point you're misjudging a lot of process and intent just because of the inevitable execution.
>>82446296
Justifying why you don't have to adhere to continuity within your line but have to adhere to arbitrary continuity restrictions within your universe is lazy at best and deeply hypocritical and stupid at worst.
>>82446340
Execution is everything. Fumbling the execution while shitting on everything that's came before you and not learning from your mistakes is about the worst thing you can do creatively.
>>82446315
I liked it on the whole but it varies between artists.
Dropping the underoos is a risk but they went with it by giving him a racecar driver type look.
also this whole issue and especially the last pages
I always liked how there were different artsyles for Dick and Bruce. Bruce was always bigger and more of a bruiser while Dick was the lean acrobatic Neal Adams style.
>>82444515
Grant Morrison ruined Batman.
Like taking a colmisal megacock that ruins your hole for all other men,no Batman story has been able to follow up what he did(Batman story, other characters thrived)
I cant even imagine what do to after this. Like aside from just doing btas style one and dones, lime what story could actually folloe uo fron this one.
>>82444515
Batman Inc vol 1>Batman and Robin>The Black Glove/Three Ghosts>Return of Bruce Wayne>Batman Inc vol 2>Batman and Son
>>82444515
Ruined Talia forever
Clutted the Batfamily even more with Damian
Turned the theme of "crime can struck everyone" with the death of the Wayne into "lol spooky conspiracy literally run by the devil or maybe not!"
>>82446612
masterful issue
>>82446745
>>82446790
You guys have no imagination. Sorry you're losing Snyder.
>>82446745
This is the main reason I'm mad DC gutted him so hard on the ending.
This comic is the be all end all of Batman and we'll never get another like it and DC decided to give us a big fuck you for the wrap up
>>82446820
That's not an argument
>>82446820
You completely misread that first guy.
>>82446745
We've only had Snyder since Morrison, so there haven't been enough attempts to say "no one can live up to expectations."
I have hope for King. He may not be able to live up to the bat-epic, but not every fuck has to be the best of your life to be a great lay.
>>82447174
I'm pretty optimistic for King's take, he's shown he can do epic over on Omega Men, he's shown he can really tell a story in Vision (hell, across the board), and his crime drama over in Sheriff of Babylon is great.
I can't see all of this adding up to anything below a passable run on Batman.
>>82447174
>>82447375
I'm a little worried because King's worst recent work (Robin War) was a more generic sort of story. I'm not sure if his Batman run will be more like that or his other stuff. Also not a fan of the artists.
oh shit, snyder got kicked off batman?
i haven't been keeping up with comics, what happened?
>>82447174
>being excited for King
>literally going to use the comic to push Dick even more
Oh right, I forgot you are all Dickbats queer that didn't even knew Batman was a thing before Morrison
>>82447419
Robin War was insanely editorially controlled; the whole thing was basically just an ad for We Are Robin. The fact that DC basically offered to suck King's dick to get him to sign on makes me think he'll be given a good deal of freedom with Batman.
>>82447448
Snyder decided he wanted to leave after working on the same title for 5 years. He's still going to be working on All Star Batman.
>>82447448
>kicked off
His run ended. He's been doing the series for five years now anon, he was never gonna stay forever.
>>82447482
Are you retarded?
>>82447448
People don't just write an ongoing perpetually. He's done with his main run and will be writing a different Batbook.
Why does something need to have happened?
>>82447482
>literally going to use the comic to push Dick even more
Why do you say this?
>>82444515
Morrison is objectively the worst writer in modern comics. Maybe even in all history.
Whenever he writes something in an established universe he always disregards the continuity, rapes every single character, and permanently poisons the franchise to the point where it need s acomplete reboot in order to be salvaged. He should jsut fuck off and do his own thing in his own contained universes where everyone can safely disregard his drug-addled rantings and he can't cause any damage to things people actually give a damn about. He's the kind of writer that is too lazy to research a character past some vaguely-remembered silver age shit and a quick Wikipedia browse, and then bases an entire run on that by injecting his half-cocked new age ripoff bullshit into it.
>>82447419
I feel like Robin War was just there to give all the Robins a chance to interact so that when they got together again in these books it wouldn't be too forced, set up a few plot points that would be important in post-Rebirth titles, like >>82447503 said, an Editorial event the writers had to make the best of.
>>82446170
Fuck that Flamingo fight art is absolutely atrocious. It's indecipherable and if you can tell me where it's meant to be set I'll give you ten internet bucks because I am at sea. It's an alley, but a construction site is right there and a seemingly 80ft high square drop is next to that. Christ. How did he get that gig? Presumably It was like Igor Cordy (ie "Yeah I'm fast, I can cover for Quitely...oh wait no my art turns to shit when I rush") on New X-Men situation.
>>82447743
>Presumably It was like Igor Cordy (ie "Yeah I'm fast, I can cover for Quitely...oh wait no my art turns to shit when I rush") on New X-Men situation.
exactly
>>82447525
i just assumed he'd stay for awhile since people liked his run
didn't realize it was 5 years
>>82447448
He's still doing a concurrent series, "All-Star Batman," unfortunately.
>>82447808
Glad I guessed right. At least Kordy's pages look finished.
>Hear Prince is dead
>first thought "Man I wish the arc with the batman villain visually based off of him didn't have such shit-tier art"
>>82447530
Who are your favorite writers?
>>82447743
>Presumably It was like Igor Cordy (ie "Yeah I'm fast, I can cover for Quitely...oh wait no my art turns to shit when I rush") on New X-Men situation.
It wasn't quite that simple. Van Sciver was the fill-in for Quitely but Marvel was overworking him, so he quit, and Kordey was the rushed fill-in fill-in.
>>82446138
>fuck 20 years of continuity and characterization I'm gonna write these characters how I want to
-Grant Morrison
>>82448001
I did not know that. Thank you.
>>82447951
Kate Leth, G. Willow Wilson, Noelle Stevenson and whoever writes Giant Days
>>82448124
>>82447419
I actually really enjoyed RW.
Only weakness was art, and King elevated it with his script.
His use of arc words/phrases in inverted context is tanilizing
>>82448019
This is a new one. Morrison disregarding continuity and characterization? Are you serious?
>>82447174
Its not just no one, I cant even think of a good Batmab run follow up. And I have a binder full of pitches for almost every one
>>82448239
I don't think it was truly bad but clever writing didn't save the plot for me. Best part was Dick fucking all the kids over.
>>82448545
Wait, so because you can't think of a better Batman story no one can?
>>82444515
I definitely had some issues with Batman Inc.
There are some good issues there, but it reall falls apart.
>>82448641
/co/'s reaction to keikaku Dick was pretty great.
>>82445809
3D man is brilliant, fuck the haters.
>>82448545
Get out of the thread, Snyder!
>>82448497
How long were you reading Batman before Morrison's run?
>>82444515
It's very good, but it's also VERY dense, and very morrison-y. Take that as you will.
>>82448702
because didio was so fucking great right?
>>82448797
You didn't answer the question
>>82448837
At least Metal Men holds up
>>82446170
This whole bit where Talia sees this and is basically like
"Oh shit. I may have gone to far."
>>82448660
No, its the fact thats its been several years and I have felt it first hand is just me saying there is a difficultly here. We are going to need a massive cock. A YUGE dicK.
Christ the last time a guy tried to follow up Moz he had a psychological breakdown.
>>82448985
Who? When?
>>82449290
U'or Mother
last night
>>82447448
He's doing All Star Batman and his legacy projects like Duke and the Court of Owls are hanging around.
>>82449538
And hopefully we'll get rid of Duke soon, and Dick is allowed to deal with the *Parliament* of Owls from now on without Bruce putting his nose into it.
>>82449604
Duke is gonna be in both All Star Batmand and Tom King's Batman.
>>82449658
Yes I know that, but I'm still hopeful -- that's all I got.
And is Duke actually going to be in All Star Batman itself or only in the bakcups?
>>82449329
Hi Dad. Get some milk if you're out later.
>>82445729
You're retarded, he also wrote some of the best 90s titles like JLA
>>82450341
JLA was a conscious "return to form" after the 90s had their obsession with shaking up the status quo. If you read Flex Mentallo you can see that Morrison hated the Liefeld era.
>>82448124
You forgot Ryan North
>>82450341
No shit, anyone with an internet connection knows Morrison wrote throughout the 90's. We're talking about the "90's style" exemplified by Image, Jim lee, Rob Liefeld, etc.
Morrison is coming around on that stuff now but he hated it at the time and presented himself as the anti-"90's guy" with his work.
I wish DC were more receptive to change. I would have really like 20 or so years of Dick as Detective Batman and Bruce as JLA Batman, it makes sense as growth for both characters and lets a lot of new stories be told.
I'm also upset that Hal and Barry are alive though, I like the idea of a universe that changes and people remember shit that happened years ago. The New 52 doesn't have the same sense of history that Morrison made love to in his Batman run.
>>82445729
But he does. Remember that he wrote JLA and Invisibles during the 90's.
>>82457038
His first JLA arc was a not-Kingdom Come of sorts in that it was about classic heroes versus edgy overdesigned Image-like heroes (who turned out to be white martians with a hidden agenda)
>>82446153
Batman and Robin was one of the best comic book experiences I ever had. Even my sister was buying the books just to see what happened next.
The very short stint on Detective Comics by Dini and J.H. Williams III shortly before Morrison's run is what DC should've gotten behind.
>>82459213
This. It was actually in 'Tec concurrent with Morrison's
